B737 Fuel

[nick charles]

Anyone hear about the red rat's B737 that arrived in SYD recently with the following fuel quantities:
Left Wing 120 kg
Right Wing 85 kg
Centre 3000 kg
How can this happen? Only by very serious finger trouble - and on many occasions.
Apparently, the crew asked maintenance to transfer fuel to the wing tanks after arrival.
Word has it that the issue is being investigated by senior airline management and senior regulator management with ALL others being told to "butt out!" Safety Management as per the Old Boys Network?

[flying-spike]

Given that this is a rumour network I will proceed. From what I understand they did not select the centre tank first or at least did not switch on the pumps for that tank for whatever reason. Then did not notice it until the got low fuel warnings for the wing tanks approaching Sydney and then consulted engineering. Then did not report the error.
Apparently they are facing some sort of disciplinary action. Although the mistake is serious enough, what concerns me is that reporting culture, in this instance at least, is such that they thought they would suffer disciplinary action and tried to cover it up. As I said, this is a rumour network so if anybody does have the FACTS please pipe up.

[Casper]

This one must have been SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO close to a double flameout!

[virgindriver]

I think you will need to ask the Sydney refueller for the facts....

[Kiwiguy]

So [speculatively] did they select crossfeed into the centre tank or something ?

[Yusef Danet]

Kiwi guy, no. 737 can't pump fuel into ctr tank, just tank to engine.

[A37575]

The "new" Boeing procedure that was introduced a year or so back was a very significant change to a decades long tried and trusted policy that worked. The old procedure required the fuel pumps to be turned on as part of the normal before start scan which was conducted well in advance of passenger boarding (up to 30 minutes in most cases) and gave ample time for both pilots to have a good look around the cockpit including looking up at the fuel pump selection.
Currently, the first officer does just about every switch selection before and after engine start while the captain "observes" with little activity. The fuel pumps are now turned on by the F/O immediately before engine start and the first officer who does this action then drags out a checklist and reads it to himself - again in theory the captain "observes" but apart from his area of responsibility, he doesn't do much.
I wonder if this area of responsibility thing has gone too far. It used to be a joke in the old days where a cranky captain would snarl at a first officer saying "There is a line down the centre of this cockpit - you keep to your side and don't you touch anything on my side." I am fast getting the impression that this joke is turning into reality with neither pilot touching anything that is not delineated as in his "area of responsibility."
So the fuel pump selection is made by the F/O immediately prior to engine start (same with electric hydraulic pumps) and maybe the incident described is the first warning that the new Boeing checklist philosophy has potential for error?

And don't even mention the potential for disaster if the auto-throttle switch which is now armed before engine start and someone inadvertently hits the TOGA button while pushing back engines running, or while taxiing. Never happened in the previous Boeing 737 checklist procedure where the auto-throttle switch was left off until nearing the active runway - for obvious safety reasons.

[727ace]

heard it may have been one of the Toll aircraft from a refueller of course:\

[greenslopes]

Wing tank fuel can be transferred on the ground from wing to centre(not in-flight). >2300 Kg in the centre tank then turn all pumps on for departure. Once the main wing tanks are below half "suction" pumps activate which drains any remaining fuel from centre tanks, so no fear of double flame out.
Lets not judge....................There but the grace of God!

[Casper]

Greenslopes,
"Once the main wing tanks are below half "suction" pumps activate which drains any remaining fuel from centre tanks, so no fear of double flame out."
You sure about that? I've been through a schematic of the B737 fuel system and it would appear that the presence of check valves prevents any centre tank fuel being used without switching on the centre tank pumps. Happy to be corrected, however - I flew them but never tried to fix them!

A37575 - Very good post and I agree with your thoughts.

[56P]

"Once the main wing tanks are below half "suction" pumps activate which drains any remaining fuel from centre tanks, so no fear of double flame out."
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I understand that the above is the case on the NG but not on the classic. Was the incident aircraft a B737 300 / 400 series?

[greenslopes]

Yep,
With the main tank fuel pump #1 FWD Switch ON, the center tank fuel scavenge jet pump operates automatically to transfer any remaining center tank fuel to main tank #1. Fuel transfer begins when main tank #1 quantity is about one-half. Once the fuel scavenge process begins, it continues for the remainder of the flight.
Also,
The QRH, FUEL LOW PROCEDURE calls for all main pump switches and X-feed open, so whilst not ruling it out there is very little chance of a double engine flameout.
This is with the NG, THE Classic has faded into my memory ether, so sorry cannot help if there are any differences tween the two!

[Cryten]

I'm amazed

If there's fuel in the centre tanks, the pumps go on. They only go off if, or when, the tank is empty

did anyone even look at the guages?

On the classic, the scavange valve opens for 20mins (when No 1 forward pump is on, and ctr tank pumps are off - which operates the scavange pump) and then shuts off automatically. fuel goes to tank 1

[Yusef Danet]

I don't think the scavenge pump (also referred to here as a suction pump) would keep an engine going. It's only rated for 80-160kg per hour.

[Capt Wally]

...............wowowo ..........modern technology is meant to be easier & idiot proof....................some time ago a 767 became a glider due to a missed fuel management issue, conversion lbs to kg's I believe. let's hope that this event will make those at the pointy end of the 737 become curious a bit more with their fuel quantities, great disscusions too, very helpful, keep it up guys..........we learn in this game that's for sure !

Capt Wally:-)

[hongkongfooey]

hits the TOGA button while pushing back engines running
Unlikely, its hard enough to find the TOGA buttons when you actually need them :hmm:

If there's fuel in the centre tanks, the pumps go on. They only go off if, or when, the tank is empty
Not strictly correct ( at least for our NGs ) less than 1000lbs, only get turned on in cruise ( level flight ). You are correct that in this case, 3000kgs, they should be turned on before start


All this pontificating is even more pointless than normal if we don't know which type it is.

[Kiwiguy]

727 ace mentioned that a re-fueler suggests it was a Toll aircraft. ie The parent company for Virgin blue which operate 737-700/737-800.

[hongkongfooey]

True Kiwi, but I'm pretty sure the Toll A/C is a classic.

[Capt Kremin]

It was a QF 737-800.

[blueloo]

Wouldnt have happened if it was a 738. Low fuel would be bright yellow on center panel.

[fergusdog]

it was a 400 not 800

[Kiwiguy]

Virgin Blue no longer operates classics.
Ipso facto it must be a Qantas...

Come to think of it aren't all 734s now operated trans Tasman for Jetconnect ?

[Cryten]

Regardless of type, Knowing how much fuel you have and where it is, is kind of important. someone's going to have some explaining to do

[A37575]

Quote:
hits the TOGA button while pushing back engines running

Unlikely, its hard enough to find the TOGA buttons when you actually need them



Unlikely? Not when you happen to know that a pilot inadvertently pressed one of the "hard to find" TOGA buttons while taxiing at Sydney a few months ago. Fortunately the slow wind-up of the thrust was immediately noticed before it got dangerous and the disconnect button in the thrust levers hurriedly actuated. Have seen it happen in the simulator once or twice.

[Casper]

it was a 400 not 800
------------------------------------------------------
THAT explains a lot. So it really WAS very close to a hole in the ground - or water. Just WHERE did the driver do the conversion training?

[A37575]

Ipso facto
Never seen that username on Pprune before...

[aerostatic]

Come to think of it aren't all 734s now operated trans Tasman for Jetconnect ?

Nope, don't think so. Some yes, but not all.

[hongkongfooey]

Dont want to get into a peeing comp here ( not too mention thread creep ) A37575, But I have no idea what the skippers fingers would be doing near the TOGA buttons during start ( ummm, should be on the cutoff lever ) or taxi, I generally have my hand on on top of T/Ls during taxi, the TOGA buttons are'nt exactly " in the way " , any other NG skippers wanna chime in here? Having said that, anything is possible.

On the topic, as blueloo said, in the NG, a bit hard to not notice the fuel config warning with 3 ton in the centre and next to nothing in the mains.

[blow.n.gasket]

Sounds to me like Qantas pilots are becoming more preoccupied with their futures ,thanks to that megalomaniac leader of theirs, than flying aeroplanes.
This 737 driver wasn't the same chappy who stuffed up an RTO in Cairns a while back per chance? :rolleyes:

Worlds safest airline ,what a crock!
Thanks to massive cost cutting sounds like Qantas' glory days are over.
What exactly is Geoff's legacy going to be?
A smoking hole ? :ooh:

[mohdawang]

Couldn't have happened! QF crew are the best and most well trained pilots in the whole world...what are you guys insinuating? They are the whole wide world's safest airline and who are you cretins making such unfounded, malicious accusations ?

[Angle of Attack]

Haha!! I see.. LOL!

[boeingmad]

This 737 driver wasn't the same chappy who stuffed up an RTO in Cairns a while back per chance? :rolleyes:

Maybe, but the same chap that departed Cairns on an RNP departure up the valley in HDG select! Oooops.

[Capt Fathom]

Maybe, but the same chap that departed Cairns on an RNP departure up the valley in HDG select! Oooops.

That would be 2 chaps wouldn't it?

[Much Ado]

Keep to the topic and off the character assasination...or else.:mad:

[No SAR No Details]

Why don't you all wait for the ATSB report to come out?
I heard 73 classic. Fuel in centre not in wings on landing, Inadvertantly didnt select centre pumps pre takeoff, landed, asked ground staff to assist transfer from centre back to wings (not refuellers), learnt valuable lesson, said no more. Some one (flight crew) from MEL Heard story went for browny points, dobbed pilot in for not reporting. Plane not in danger due crew recognising where fuel was and used appropriate means to supply engines.

[The Mr Fixit]

Unfort they were dobbed themselves in via QAR I believe

It's not the incident that will get them in trouble it's the cover up

All are in the **** too, both pilots and the engineer

[Casper]

Plane not in danger due crew recognising where fuel was and used appropriate means to supply engines.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just WHEN did the crew recognise where the fuel was?

[hongkongfooey]

Plane not in danger due crew recognising where fuel was and used appropriate means to supply engines.


Uhhh, I think Mr.Boeing had his reasons when he said " if more than 470kg in the centre tank, the main tanks must be full ".......................or was he just being difficult.

[Flight Detent]

In that case they must have got a fuel CONFIG alert with both the center pumps off and more than 726 kgs in the center tank, AND a LOW fuel alert at 907 kgs in each of the wing tanks...NG style!
Cheers...FD

[Casper]

Doesn't the classic have a min fuel requirement in the wing tanks for hydraulic cooling?

[Capt Kremin]

Guys, there is an ATSB investigation going on into this incident. The QF investigation has already resulted in unfortunate consequences for the crew. Why don't you give the speculation a rest?

[aerostatic]

I agree speculation not helpful. WRT to comments on config and low fuel warnings the classic has no such function - so no warning would have been given.

[Much Ado]

I think this thread is about done:ugh:

[WA_Man]

OK then, I'll start,

What happened with the Qantas 737 that landed with very low fuel in the mains and 3000kg in the centre tank?

:eek:

[Henry Winkler]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291989

Your Welcome.

[The Kavorka]

Must have been those useless Jetstar Pilots flying it!!

[Henry Winkler]

Nah. From what I hear they were busy getting in trouble in Melbourne.