View Full Version : Near Miss at Tulla
preset
11th Sep 2007, 03:45
Anybody hear any details about this preliminary report ?
"A Jetstar Airbus came within 20 feet of a fogbound Melbourne Airport tarmac before aborting its second attempt to land"
telephonenumber
11th Sep 2007, 04:02
This from Crikey.com.au today:
"5.*CASA & Vaile let Jetstar probe Jetstar near miss
Ben Sandilands writes:
Only today will a full dossier on the latest Jetstar incident be delivered to the independent accident and incident investigator, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau.
It will contain everything Jetstar has discovered as part of its own internal review about how one of its jets came to within 20 feet of the ground at Melbourne Airport in fog during an aborted landing.
The dossier lands at the ATSB in a near dead heat with*a statement from*Transport Minister, Mark Vaile, who said through a spokesperson that he "has been advised that both the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and the ATSB are seeking further information from Jetstar."
This sees the responsible minister, and the separate aviation investigation and regulatory arms,*both focused on the same alarming incident on the same day nearly two months after it happened.
By world standards this makes the governance of air safety regulation in Australia a joke.
Jetstar did the right thing by Australian rules. It reported the original incident the day it occurred and said it would conduct an investigation.
After a second look at the incident, it found out things about last minute decisions taken too close to the ground, and set about retraining the captain concerned as well as alerting its flight crews on the standard procedure for dealing with minimal landing conditions.
But airlines in Europe or North America don’t even expect to be allowed to keep serious matters involving flight standards in-house. Jetstar would have been swarmed over by Federal Aviation Authority inspectors on experiencing and reporting such an incident at, say, San Francisco.
And US carriers have come to expect and pro-actively work with the FAA, because it names and shames for things that go wrong or depart from the rules.
Mr Vaile seems happy for CASA to have a close relationship with the carriers that keeps the public out of the loop when it comes to safety deficiencies, and appears to work more on trust than oversight.
This was strikingly illustrated by the Lockhart River crash, where CASA couldn’t even effectively regulate the safety of*the tiny carrier Transair, and failed to communicate what it did know about its dangerous operations to the public in a timely manner.
Why wasn’t the Jetstar incident promptly investigated by the ATSB, and is CASA properly funded and equipped to fulfil its safety regulation obligations."
Someone, give that man a Tooheys New:ok:.
telephone, have you cut and paste various parts of Ben's article because it reads like crap. It jumps from one point to another and then back to the original. Please tell me that's not a true representation of the entire article.
Beyond that, has anybody got a link to the ATSB report? I'd prefer to read it from the horses mouth.
Capt Claret
11th Sep 2007, 07:57
I wonder if this (sounds more like CFIT than a near miss) incident is the same one referred to in A320 Go around (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=290637) thread of a few weeks ago?
greybeard
11th Sep 2007, 09:04
It may well be a late missed approach from loss of visibility after Cat I and 20 feet is not unusual. I know we don't have Cat II in Australia, but a touch on the runway is possible on a "normal" loss of visibility missed approach from that, unusual but have done it.
The usual "experts of doom and gloom" need a reality fix here, I am no defender of any idiot and if the rules were broken, hang them high, but get the facts, 'cause it might be you in front of the gaffer one day
:ok:
Bullethead
11th Sep 2007, 09:16
Big deal, I did a go-around in PER a couple of years ago when I flew into a wall of water while in the flare. It was at night with a strong north westerly and passing showers.
One second the runway lights were there the next second it was all black and wet. Time to get outa there. If I was any more than ten feet off the runway I'd be surprised. Flew a standard missed approach and went a did it right the second time.
Regards,
BH.
Capt Claret
11th Sep 2007, 09:25
If this incident is the same as one I've heard about, the gear was up when Mrs Airbus squawked TWENTY. :eek:
Claret touches as much wood as he can.
Howard Hughes
11th Sep 2007, 09:34
Now I am no Airbus expert, but I expect Mrs Airbus would not have squaked 'twenty' if the gear was up, she would have been busy with many other calls that take precedence!:eek:
Buster Hyman
11th Sep 2007, 09:49
Claret touches as much wood as he can.
Was that a pun about A320's & trees Clarrie???
Capt Claret
11th Sep 2007, 10:03
Unintentional Buster, unintentional.
If the story is true, it was meant to indicate empathy for the poor bugga who got into that position, because no one would do it knowingly.
Lowkoon
11th Sep 2007, 10:29
While the punters in the back, none the wiser, still tickled pink with themselves for saving twenty bucks! :}
Howard, obviously I've never been there in real life but I know that in the sim we've still had rad alt altitude call outs whilst in the middle of a GPWS windshear and then pull up message. I think it depends where it all is in the sequence.
Yet another example of how the most benign of days turn to crap. I hope the J* boys and/or girls are back flying the line again. No one wishes for this kind of crap to happen to another.
Capt Kremin
12th Sep 2007, 00:20
Whatever the merits of this, once again we see the spin that Jetstar management attempts to impart. Qantas group to the rescue again!
NEWS
12 September 2007
Herald-Sun
Copyright 2007 News Ltd. All Rights Reserved AVIATION safety authorities will reinvestigate a recent incident where a Jetstar aircraft was diverted to Avalon after two failed attempts to land at Melbourne airport.
Jetstar filed a report after the July 21 incident, but two federal government safety agencies have requested further information.
The budget airline also confirmed the captain of the Airbus A320 had undergone retraining.
The jet, flying from Christchurch in New Zealand, made two attempts to land at Melbourne during heavy fog and then flew on to Avalon.
Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said the captain was experienced and the aircraft operated safely at all times.
Mr Westaway said Jetstar was investigating why the automatic missed-approach system failed.
He said speculation on some aviation websites that the landing gear hadn't been lowered was wrong.
Mr Westaway said the captain had received further training in line with the Qantas group's safety procedures.
Australian Transport Safety Bureau spokesman Julian Walsh said Jetstar's original report on the incident did not raise significant concerns, but the bureau would look at the matter again given the airing of more information.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority is also seeking further information.
P.S. Westaway... there is no automatic go around system on the A320!
Buster Hyman
12th Sep 2007, 01:32
Okay, well now we know why it failed then!!:p
QFinsider
12th Sep 2007, 03:13
Capt. you beat me to the draw...
"Qantas group's safety procedures" always drag out the link to claim credibility...
Nonetheless just ask the guys that did the audit at J* how closely aligned to Qantas their flight operations are.......Didn't the little irish turd refuse to allow Qantas to audit "his" flight operations? Hmm
For the record: It is not a criticism of the hard working and underpaid employees, it is a criticism of the lack of consistency across the so called "group"
Capn Bloggs
12th Sep 2007, 03:18
speculation on some aviation websites that the landing gear hadn't been lowered was wrong.
I'm voting PPRune 1 in the next federal election. You only get the truth from Prune.
Capt Claret
12th Sep 2007, 03:35
He said speculation on some aviation websites that the landing gear hadn't been lowered was wrong.
But, could it have been retracted in the belief that having pressed the TOGA button/s the Airbus would rocket skywards with the (B717) auto-throttle setting the desired TOGA power?
Buster Hyman
12th Sep 2007, 03:38
There's also the little known issue about using the Thronomeister in foggy conditions at lower altitude...and...on a Wednesday!
Kremin, if you engage SRS with the autopilot on does it not "go-around"
Capn Bloggs
12th Sep 2007, 03:50
engage SRS
=
ran into the ground hard and activated the SRS airbags.
Clarrie may have it. As far as I'm aware there has been no comment here indicating that the gear had not been lowered...I think we all understand that the gear had been lowered earlier in the approach. The speculation is that that perhaps the gear had been retracted at a time when it shouldn't have been and I note that Westaway's comments do not address this issue. Spin like this really drives me nuts- whether it's Westaway, Godfrey or whoever QF is trotting out in front of the cameras this time around.
Still, I wasn't there and I don't know what happened. No doubt the report will be out eventually and we'll all know the truth of the matter.
Capt Kremin
12th Sep 2007, 05:36
The aircraft will go-around on autopilot but it must be initiated in the same way a manual go-around is.
It will do neither automatically.
Unemployed
13th Sep 2007, 09:04
ok ........ refer my thread ......
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=290637
the way I heard it it was ....... IMC at Minima.....GA commenced......GA flap selected......Gear raised....... (I am not familiar with the A320) ... but the levers were not moved to GA position ?? ..... the a/c stayed in App. mode... and continued descending.....the crew did not notice the oversight......"too low gear" warning ....... crew realized something was wrong....... corrected....... Rad. Alt started countdown........ engines spun up......climbed away from 10 or 20 feet with the gear up (as it had already been selected up at the minima)
NOW I'll ask my original question again !!!!!! Any one know anything about it ??????? :ugh:
After a quick perusal of the ATSB website.. I think some people have preconceived misconceptions about the safety of their own operations...
Kremin.... and you know it wasn't initiated how? ... mmm thought so
Umemployed ... stop fishing mate. After reading your post lets just say you may want to wait for the report to be published. But while you are waiting have a look at how many time this has occurred around the world and get back to me...
Oh and by the way.... the time between reaching the minima and "too low, gear" is only a couple of seconds in that situation. Thats only coincidence and here-say... as for the rest... spin it whatever way you like.
As for being appalled about how they performed....... :hmm: .. some peoples children... perfect aces under pressure ay?
cunninglinguist
13th Sep 2007, 11:08
The aircraft will go-around on autopilot but it must be initiated in the same way a manual go-around is.
It will do neither automatically.
I'd hardly call having to advance the thrust levers to the TOGA detent, manual.
Capt Claret
13th Sep 2007, 14:26
So Bula, how does one try to determine whether a story heard has any basis in fact then? I've heard much the same as Unemployed. Like him, I haven't sought to sling mud, simply show some interest.
Just because many PPRuNe threads on Dunnunda degenerate into mud slinging, it doesn't follow that all questions seek to do so.
Mate you act like every normal human being and wait for the report to confirm what you have heard.... Id hardly call a clarification through misinterpretation as giving a nod to what I have heard.
When the report is released there will be some golden stuff on Human-Machine interfaces, human factors, automation misinterpretation and bias... but how about you guys just wait