Mid-war RAF roundels - expertise needed!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Hi All,

I'm building a large-scale model of Spitfire Mk VB EP465, as flown by Geoffrey Wellum during Operation Pedestal in August 1942, and I'm just wondering what type of roundels the aircraft would have had on the fuselage - the painting "Spitfires - Malta Bound" shows Type A1, but from what I can find out, newly-delivered aircraft by 1942 would have been wearing Type C1 (ie thin white and yellow rings). I haven't been able to find any images of the aircraft other than that in the painting - anyone know more?

Many thanks in advance,

TOTD

[jabberwok]

Can of worms.. Many aircraft retained old type roundels - they seem to have avoided (escaped?) being repainted for quite some time. I suspect only a photograph of the aircraft will provide the definitive answer.

Which Squadron was it?

[FL575]

Torque,

I am no anorak, but looking in Jaynes All The Worlds Aircraft (and other books that I have published at the time i.e 1943/4) they all show the Mk 5b with the thin colours as you describe.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Can of worms indeed! For what it's worth, EP465 was built as a MK 5B, tropical, and was delivered to No 38 MU on 3/7/42. She would probably have had her Sqn Codes painted on there prior to delivery to No 19 Sqn on 16/8/42. That should place her in the Type C roundels. Odd thing is she was damaged in a flying accident 16/3/43, repaired and delivered to 402 Sqn 5/5/43. My understanding, though, is that 126 and 185 Sqns were the only Spitfire Units on the Island during Op PEDESTAL.
Presumably the picture you have is ; http://www.swafineart.com/images/3.9.04/SpitfiresMaltaBound_med.jpg

To confuse matters:

http://www.brooksart.com/Ohio.jpg

and

http://www.brooksart.com/Maltadetail.jpg

[Brian Abraham]

EP465 was not with 402 long (six weeks) as she had a heavy landing, undercarriage collapsed at Digby 18/6/43 SAL recat E 27/6/43. Would seem that on the evidence that Geoffrey Wellum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Wellum was never on a squadron to which the aircraft was attached. Although built as a tropical hard to imagine that it would have retained the Vokes filter since the aircraft never left the UK. Have a black/white photo of EP455 which was lost in the desert while serving with 601 Squadron on 2/11/42.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Many thanks all for your contributions - interesting to hear that EP465 apparently never left the UK! Even the colour scheme of the aircraft (whichever aircraft it was that Geoffrey Wellum flew during Pedestal) is open to speculation, as some of the Spitfires which were delivered to Malta wore a dark blue paint scheme. Some of them seem to have had squadron codes applied before delivery, others to have had none until arrival on Malta. From First Light, I'm pretty sure that Wellum and EP465 ended up on 1435 Sqn, but I can't source any pics of that unit's aircraft which might provide clues.

[Mark22]

C1 fuselage roundels introduced on production line aircraft from 21st May 1942.

Mark22

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Hi Mark,

Many thanks for that - I wonder if there's any way of finding out when EP465 was built, as presumably the type of roundel applied to it would depend largely on which side of 21/5/42 it came off the production line

TOTD

[Mark22]

EP465 Delivered to 38MU on 3rd July 1942.

I would suggest C1 roundels at this date but it is marginal.

Mark22

[Final 3 Greens]

GBZ

My understanding, though, is that 126 and 185 Sqns were the only Spitfire Units on the Island during Op PEDESTAL.

Devotees of 249 may take exception to this statement ;)

F3G (Malta resident)

[Brian Abraham]

TorqueOfTheDevil, Do you please have the source of your connection between EP465 and Wellum. If from "First Light" the mis-identification could be due to any number of reasons, proof reading, transcription error, to the pilot even writing the wrong number in his log book (has happened). The info I have has the following EP series that bracket 465 going to Malta 457, 459, 460, 467, 471, 472 and 473. Of course there are other EP series that went, but these are just the few that bracket 465. Have included the photo of 455 as it was delived to the RAF on 28/6/42, that is 5 days before 465.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/b0036.jpghttp://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/b0035.jpg

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Mark and Brian,

Many thanks - it looks very likely that it would be the C1 roundels, given the date of production of 465 (how much delay would there have been, if any, between an aircraft leaving the production line and being delivered to an MU - the airtesting and ferrying could take some days, presumably?) and the fact the 455 had them. My source for EP465 being involved in Pedestal was indeed First Light (and Spitfires - Malta Bound as G-BZ added to his post, though presumably the artist took the tail number straight from the book much like me!). Now that it turns out that the tail number was wrong, I'm a bit stuck - might have to pick another number from the ones Brian provided!

Thanks indeed for all the information provided.

TOTD

[Brian Abraham]

The painting of the aircraft (including roundels) was done prior to assembly on the production line. Time between coming off the production line and going to a MU was variable depending on problems encountered during test flight - engine change required, chasing oil or coolant leaks for example. Wellum was living in Mullion, Cornwall and had three children (sex unknown). If still alive, or if children can be tracked you may find your answer as to the correct aircraft.

[Speedpig]

The Geoffrey Wellum I knew many years ago, and allegedly "a spitfire pilot" is sadly long departed. He had a son & a daughter if I recall, but I have no idea where they may be. They would both be approaching their 60s


Having done a google on Geoffrey Wellum DFC, it appears he is not the same one I knew 40 years ago as he was due to appear in public for a book signing in December 2005. My acquintance would have passed away 30 years ago.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Final 3 Greens, I stand corrected. Page 353 of J Rawling's Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and Their Aircraft makes that very clear. Interestingly, it shows a line of MK 5Bs with Type A1s on the fuselage. The furthest one, at RAF Kali, is coded T-O; noted on page 354 as EP131 (delivered to 6MU 30/5/42). Sorry, I can't scan the page.

[Brian Abraham]

Have extracted 36 serial numbers from the lists that MAY be the aircraft involved in Operation Pedestal. All are listed as "Malta 1/8/42" which MAY be the date HMS Furious sailed from the UK. EP131 as noted by GBZ above is one of them. The aviation portion of Pedestal went by the name of "Operation Bellows". You could find more concise info at the Imperial War Museum I guess. The POSSIBLE list is,

EN series 954, 955, 968, 972, 973, 978, 979, 980, 981
EP series 122, 131, 132, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 190, 196, 203, 205, 209, 255, 257, 259, 260, 305, 330, 331, 336, 338, 339, 341, 343, 344