HIGH CAP AOC for Mac Air

[Floater in the bowl]

Tongues are waggin that Randall is the proud owner of a brand new High Cap AOC, and approval for 1 flight attendant for 50 pax for the ATR-42. I assume a dark day for flight attendants, but a good time for the "lifestyle airline", with bonding high time Saab drivers for 2 years on Saab wages. In times of their biggest crewing crisis ever.
Good on em. Prooved me wrong. Good on em :}

[The Company]

Floater

Why would it be a dark day for Cabin Attendants that M@cair have been permitted to do what the rest of the world does, and operate within a completely safe and reasonable method using one CA to fifty pax.

I would ascert that it was a dark day when our industry was forced into such pathetic and backward work practices as one to 36.

Rules such as these, and this "Low Capacity RPT" nonsense have made Australian Aviation a less safe and effcient business that the rest of the world.

Low Cap/High Cap is all acedemic now, you are a compliant and professional operator, or you are not.

The only reason that some operators remain at low cap certification is that they currently do not operate an aircraft worthy of the evil empire's value judgement of high capcity air operations certification requirement. It is simple Part 121 OPS.

And what, do you suggest that he should not bond Saab drivers, and just allow them to come and drink all the beer in the lifestyle fridge and fckoff to Virgin like everyone else. Bond em up good Randy. And chase the bond money, you will probably need it, aye.

Bravo Mac@air! Thanks for being an organisation who has challenged the pathetic work practices Australia sleeps on.:D

Oh and by the way, there is only one L in Randal!:ok:

[Icarus53]

Not sure that failing to meet requirements for the AOC in the first instance (what I understand from several sources in TL) falls under the banner of "challinging pathetic work practices"? How long has that shiny new beast been sitting on the tarmac waiting to earn money for the company?

I can also say that I know many FAs who would gladly argue that 1 to 50 is a tall order (depending on the sector). Regardless of how much time they have to get the service done, trying to commence an evac through two (or more) exits while the flight crew get the aircraft shut down is enough of a challenge for two FAs, let alone one.

FAs get precious little respect and pay in this business (particularly in regionals where they only have one or two to get the job done). I don't think they need people telling them they should be working harder and with more responsibility.

[QFinsider]

Assert? or ascert? Academic or Acedemic?
It is english isn't it?

The management genius knows no limit!

I agree Icarus.
I am not a flight attendant but getting 50 people highly stressed and fearful to do exactly as you wish is a tall order. Most struggle with a two year old.

No wonder we are in trouble, adding to the complication of ineptitude is poor spelling and literacy....No wonder aviation is such a mess with these heroic types knowing what is best.........:(

[Capt Wally]

.....saw a funny thing in TL the other day with the Mac Air ATR42. I was hanging around on the tarmac as you do when it's a med flight when I noticed a couple of young ladies walking towards the ATR 42 one with an offical clipbaord in hand, they both boarded the rear door & promptly closed it. Didn't give it much more thought 'till I noticed the door swing down & the voice of one very loud female yelling & screaming something that I couldn't quite understand .Now I know it was most likely part of the certification process for that one cabin att for 50 bums !...........didn't know at the time obviously.Aviation..............we love it.............right?

Capt wally :-)

[powersfasher]

If you ever have the misfortune to travel on this aircraft with only one F/A please demand a seat next to the emergency exit. You will have the best chance if something does go wrong. And if something does go wrong dont wait for any help from the F/A because she will be too busy looking after the fourty nine other pax.
And by the way she is not getting any extra money to look after the additional pax. So please dont blame her if she gets out first.

[KRUSTY 34]

The Company,

Good wind-up. Nearly got me going there.

Obviously nobody could be that assinine, arrogant, and backward thinking!

[podbreak]

when our industry was forced into such pathetic and backward work practices as one to 36.

But still need to be over-managed. If you want to talk about pathetic and backward work practices, start from the top down.

[Floater in the bowl]

I am ashamed of the industry that we have created, and the type of people that infect it. Mr Company, I meant you nor you mate, with "one L" any disrespect. But I am clearly dealing with old school GA, pay your way, "bond em big" so they don't F&#K Off to the airlines mentality MANAGEMENT. And yes you would be management or at least a heavy brown noser to spread the infection that you preach.
I'm not gonna be a wind up here, although this old mate certainly has it COMIN:ugh:.

Fact. Mac and others of the like are middle feaders of the industry. People only stay if the industry offers them and their family's a reason to. ie a stable income, and it doesn't have to be Cathay A scale, but more over money its the lifestyle and a domicile for people to raise familys and attempt to achieve a "Stable Aviation Career". I could say that in this current environment that with the bottom feeders almost non existent any more, that the regionals are in themselves feeling the pinch more than ever. And upper management is made of accountants and bullys trying to squeeze the most out of these IR AWA's. And good on em. Its their right to do so. After all its their business and business is business and we can all be replaced with people who will do it for cheaper. :ugh: But where this mentality is coming unstuck is that these "Lifers" that companies come to take for granted are starting to snap out of the euphoric ground hog day and are beginning to realise that there are opportunities both here and abroad that offer better pay and conditions and heaven forbid, get your mind thinking again on different things, types, and ways of life. Think about this, as I know that most management haven't. You are living the dream, not earning the same as your fellow flag carrier, (but hell unless you are there you're not gonna), and worryingly for how much longer!!, (but not in this post) but trend setters for the sake of the argument, say your are with such an airline, owned by old "one L", and you have avoided the mainstream politics, and say for example 10 of your mates get J* interviews, and only one gets in.................for some bizar reason!! not mentioned in this forum. You smell a rat!! But can't proove anything......... It blows over.... A bad EBA negotiation is had you you and your collegues. Then people start going to VB, even sideways to other same type operators for their various personal reasons, CX, EK and the like. Blue star's would be nice, one might think, but I can't be bothered moving to go.........Then Ops with pressure from above make a few roster changes, the pace gets heavier, you work RDO's, your hol's are getting CXL'd. Pressure from home, Mrs hasn't had a holiday in years, gotta CXL. After all the coy's been ok to you. Suddenly, your EBA that your comrads negotiated has been breached so bad that the words barely resemble english. People get the Sh#ts and start leaving, making a more workload for you to pick up, making the pressure at home difficult. You get a couple of job offers that you applied for 3 years ago and forgot about after the "eat sh#t and die" letter arrived. More leave, work gets harder. Ops get nastier with their work practices, and tip you and your family over the edge. :eek::ouch::{

I'll tell ya Dear Mr Company, this is why the industry is the way it is. Most of us are decent people who bent over backwards for companies (no pun intended) and treat the job the same way a share holder would. Just find a way to take the payload. Stop 4 times for fuel, divert the redivert, bring the old bus home for maintenance. We do all the right things, but it is when the market changes the way it has, that the wheels fall off when the old way doesn't change with the times. When the silver bird seems so much more enticing, especially when "eat sh#t and die was never meant to hurt your feelings the way it might have........Please Sir come and fly with our airline. You can have command in 6 months!!!. " I am sure that it has its same problems on a bugger scale, but it all comes down to supply and demand.

Why should you need to bond people if the company recruits correctly and keeps ahead of what the customer needs. After all we are becoming the customer now. I mean we have to pay such a price to fly the birds that we do. The priviledge is all ours. Ask the fine Sim Training organization in brisbane how their bottom line is these days. And Mr Company, go after their bonds???. MMMmmm this smells very much like a threat. Are AWA's a contract?? And if a contract is breached, is it null and void??? When we want something, are we not referred to our AWA's and does the door not break our nose when its slammed in our face. :ouch: But when the boot is on the other foot and the system itself pushes these good drivers out the door, the AWA's come snarling at your ankles with solicitors holding the chains. Breached AWA's are not worth the paper they're written on. And is it also correct that parked planes are not profitable. And is it also a fact that even third world countries are seeking crew, so you can't exploit them with a quick fix like the medical industry has. Mr Company, my last choice of a friend, as i step down from my soap box, that i did say i was not gonna get on top of, Are BONDS and hunt them down to the death gonna be the answer??? :hmm: Is yesterdays wages, because thats all they are worthy of gonna solve your crisis??? :* Is taking conditions away the next AWA signing gonna make a person sign out of fear that the tree will be shaken and the job will be taken by a new up an coming??? :sad: I fear for the experience level for the future. Yes the airplanes are becoming more user friendly, but take a look at the current career path of Joe Average entering the industry today. What will become of GA or even the regionals if they don't have jets, and High Cap AOC's to train the no timers from right to the left seat.

Its a Sellers market, and time for us all to reclaim with has been lost in the last generation. Best of wishes to you all. Keep autrocity diary's, and always give 100% even if you're only paid to do 50%. Its your dignity that you take to the next job, that you did the right thing and that you leaving was not your fault. That job of gratitude is just around the corner. :}

[KRUSTY 34]

Boody hell floater...

Good post, and covers most of the issues my friend.

The problem is that Mr Company and his/her ilk are not listening. Even if they were, they would not understand.

The reality is that they will only act when the wholesale parking of airframes becomes a daily event. We're not far from that now. Very soon it will be impossible to build a roster, and when the shareholders start screaming, watch the managers from the CEO down, duck for cover.

Unfortunately, by then it will all be too late.

[JetA_OK]

Lets get back to the point shall we - every other nation is the world uses 1 to 50 on FAs; the aircraft was certified for 1 in 50; the aircraft met the EASA reqs for evacuation as 1 in 50; the aircraft met the Australian evac requirements (based on 1 in 36) as 1 in 50.

So whats the big deal? VB already use 1 in 50 and no one is making the point that they are unsafe.

Why does this thread need to be about the equally unrealistic fantasies that a) GA and Regionals will pay pilots $200k to fly turboprops and b) all regional airlines will collapse because of their refusal to comply with a).

The Company has just posted a blatant windup and everyone has obliged by scrambling to post like seagulls on a stray chip.

I still don't quite understand why everyone would be taking pleasure in the thought of these companies collapsing anyway - even if you don't like your boss do you really think its funny that hundreds of people's lives need to be derailed as a result?

[Floater in the bowl]

Thanks for gettin us back on track Jet A, and I accept that the 1 in 50 is progress and that yes the rest of this industry is ahead, from a company perspective. But F/A's do earn F#ck all, and now their job has just got harder for little to no reward. You gotta stick up for em for that. EBA, AWA. Whats the A for. Agreement, right. Sadly, its only an agreement as a threat that if you don't sign, then you don't have a job. I would suggest that the ombudsman is being bombarded with issues. But to my original topic, I don't wish for such companies to go. They are essential for the ecosystem of aviation, not to mention the warbird collection. And I am not pointing the finger directly, because he has done some good things. All I am saying is that some things are done outa blind "faith" ie Saab wages to fly an aircraft much heavier, and the girls conditions have halved by only one there instead of 2. And Bonds for guys who have been there upto ten years. How much more ROSO is needed for $65k a year. And the beer fridge.................... there never was one. The poor previous Saab Fleet Capt found out that the hard way.

I beg you to sit back and watch the show unfold. They may work it fine, but much better companies have fallen. I am talking the shortage that is. The rest has been approved, and they deserve what they ahve attempted to achieve. I wish them well, but what was yesterday doesn't guarentee tomorrow. And with others offering better $$ and conditions, then I foresee trouble, keemoSAABee. Thats all.

We are on the same team. Lets act that way, and bring our industry back together. :ok:

[Roost]

I think they got the approval because they only have one F/A for the ATR.

All the others are on the F100 doing the contract they use to have.

[Air Ace]

"... every other nation is the world uses 1 to 50 on FAs; the aircraft was certified for 1 in 50; the aircraft met the EASA reqs for evacuation as 1 in 50; the aircraft met the Australian evac requirements (based on 1 in 36) as 1 in 50.

So whats the big deal? VB already use 1 in 50 and no one is making the point that they are unsafe."

So true JetA_OK. Now we have pilots wanting Australia to re-invent the wheel!!! :mad:

"But F/A's do earn F#ck all,....."

Floater. You have no idea what you are talking about! :ugh:

My daughter lives in the US and is a full time flight attendant on one of the largest, most respected and best managed US domestic and international carriers. Permanent FAs are paid US$18 per hour, flight time, guaranteed minimum 60 flight hours per month.

That is a guaranteed minimum salary of US$12,960 per annum or Aus$15,804 per annum - and they pay for their own uniforms.

Better not to post, than to post blatant inaccuracies! :=

[UNOME]

Yeah...

KRUSTY there is only one "S" in "Asinine" you silly boy...:}

[Icarus53]

Floater. You have no idea what you are talking about!

Air Ace:

Did I miss something here? Floater is saying they don't earn much, but he doesn't know what he's talking about because they earn less than $16k??? Perhaps a misunderstanding here - I think you're on the same team!


The Company has just posted a blatant windup and everyone has obliged by scrambling to post like seagulls on a stray chip.

JetA_OK:

Given that you (along with some others) are agreeing with the viewpoint The Company has put forward, and that many of the posters here do not, can't see how you can call it a wind up?


BTW, I'm still hearing about things that raise the eyebrows out of TL. Although the AOC has been issued, I understand that there are a number of elements which are still not 100% kosher??? I suppose if they can evac 50 pax with 1 FA, having proper weight and balance data is not really a problem???

[JetA_OK]

Icarus - if that is the case then we should be asking CASA why they wasted everyone's time doing an evac that the aircraft was already certified for when they should have been focussing on real issues.

If you ask them I'm sure they'll break eye contact, move from foot to foot and mumble something about Lockhart River. Seems to be the standard response these days.

[sinala1]

So whats the big deal? VB already use 1 in 50 and no one is making the point that they are unsafe
Incorrect. VB have obtained an exemption from CASA to operate the B737-800 with 4 crew - there has been no change to the standard ratio of 1:36 that still applies in Australia. From what I understand, J* have/are getting an exemption to operate the A320 with 4 crew as well. You ask whats the big deal? Try having your workload increased overnight by 20% with no relevant increase in pay... then see what your response is.

[KRUSTY 34]

UNOME,

What was I thinking,

Rushing out to buy a Dickshonery...

[Floater in the bowl]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

And Australia wonders why the rest of the Global industry looks and LAUGHS.

Thanks for your support people. I am trying to say good things here for good causes. But it appears that I may as well be speaking left handed swahilli.

FA's are FLIGHT ATTENDANTS and F/ALL means F#ck All, meaning very little.

I am done. :ugh: :ugh:

I am speechless at the response from simple comments, about hardships of trying to earn a living from this nasty nasty industry of internal self destruction. :oh::ugh::mad:

[FNQTech]

The Company
I expect that the only person who cares whether it is randal or randall (lower case deliberate) is the person himself. As for the issue of a high capacity AOC; that is a scary thought. All top engineering staff have jumped ship, and the primary maintenance support contractor is similarly suffering from the exodus of quality staff.
Sad situation for what should be a top operator.

[tail wheel]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Woomera/Closed-1.gif