Bell 212 Crash - Belize

[Yozzer]

Not certain, but I think this happened 4 Sep 07

All BATSUB helicopters are grounded tonight after a Bell 212 crashed yesterday in an un-inhabited area south of the Maxboro housing community.
Two pilots were on board and they were doing landing drills in an empty shrimp pond on the Nova Farms Compound. Eyewitnesses say the nose of the Bell helicopter dipped too much forward, and its blades touched the ground. That caused the helicopter to flail to the ground and burst into flames. Both pilots escaped without any serious injury.
Commanding Officer for BATSUB in Belize Lt. Col. Peter Germaine confirmed that the helicopter started service in Belize in 2003. BATSUB has two others: one is working, but grounded as a precaution, and another is undergoing maintenance.
Because the copters are so widely relied upon for training British and BDF Forces, and mostly for emergency medical evacuations, Lt. Col. Germaine says the working one should be cleared tomorrow, and they will try to get the other and working by next week.
He confirmed that both pilots have gone for MRI tests and have no serious injuries. He says one of them is a qualified instructor and the other pilot was new to Belize and was undergoing required training to familiarize himself with flying and environmental conditions in Belize. They should both be back in the air next week, he adds.
http://www.7newsbelize.com/grc/news/090505b.jpg
A team of British investigators have been brought in to determine the cause of the crash. Germaine confirmed that it is the first serious accident with a British military helicopter in Belize.
It seems the fatal Puma crash at Salamanca has been forgotten by the locals, and the Sioux that fell off Cadenas was pretty serious although unmanned at the time. I know Belize is a little behind the 21st century, but how did this one not get mentioned on a military forum? Griffins have not been grounded, because I saw one yesterday

[Airborne Aircrew]

Funny how we forget... I remember sifting through the remains of the Salamanca Puma years after it went in.

[Tiger_mate]

I recall the Salamanca crash site, but do not remember the cause of the accident. Can anybody refresh? The accident itself was shortly before my time on the Puma I believe, early 80's??

Although quite near to the camp, it must have been some trek to get to the site A-A. Which I suspect is why there was anything left there for you to rummage through.

I know of other BoI incidents, (Gallon Jug - fire) and unpleasant forced landings (swamp post tail rotor problem) that occured there, so the comment of it being the first event is a lot far fetched. Perhaps if he had said 'Army' rather then 'British Military' it would have had some integrity.

Did the Gazelle flight ever have any drama's? The BDF binned an Islander not long ago, requiring extraction by a US Army Chinook.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I think it was a couple or three years before I visited it and that was backed up by the way the site was overgrown. That would put it around 1980-81 at a guess.

IIRC it was a single engine failure when the A/c was heavy on a hot day, (well, ok, they were all pretty darned warm). Once it hit the canopy it fell and thrashed itself to death, again, IIRC.

It really was surprisingly close to the camp just off the track. Maybe 2-300 yards if my mental picture is right. I seem to remember being able to see the camp from the track. The debris started about 10-20 yards into the jungle there. There's only really fuselage stuff there though I'm sure if you dug a bit deeper into the undergrowth there is probably some more "valuable" artifacts.

I seem to remember a Gazelle having an issue that required a Puma to lift it back to APC but that may just be the old brain playing tricks.

[Gnd]

I know Belize is a little behind the 21st century, but how did this one not get mentioned on a military forum?

I think the answer may be that, for a change, they are more pre-occupied with the reason and the crew rather than pampering to the over eager, nosey speculators. At least the 1st comments might be truthfully now as the Big Bulls**t Concocter (BBC) isn't spouting rubbish yet!

[MReyn24050]

I seem to remember a Gazelle having an issue that required a Puma to lift it back to APC but that may just be the old brain playing tricks.
I am sure that happened on a number of occasions. I recall one occasion in 1985 when I was visiting 25 Flight AAC a Gazelle had an engine failure in the vacinity of Orange Walk and was recovered underslung to base by a Puma. I was with the OC Flight in an accompanying Gazelle and as the Puma approached 25 Flt's pan with the underslung Gazelle the boys came out to marshall the aircraft in, wearing gigantic orange gloves made out of polyurethane foam. The OC boss was fuming and could not see the funny side of it at all.

[lsh]

The Puma was on a practice night CASEVAC.
Single Engine failure, drop in RRPM, alternators cut-out.
No external visual cues either.
Loss of control followed.
I think that it may have killed a Medic too?
SAD.
lsh

[Sloppy Link]

I remember a Gazelle piled in about 8 or 9 years ago, jack stall? Not entirely certain but I do remeber the name of the pilot, a former member of a Scottish Infantry Regiment

[serf]

Who now works in the civil sector.............

[seafuryfan]

So as not to spoil this thread, I will post a fresh thread re. 230 Sqn's recent memorial visit to the Salamanca crash site.

[jayteeto]

Old Beefer was flying the tail rotor failure aircraft. We had to dig it out, but it flew again!! That was a miracle no-one was injured seriously.
I had an oil cooler explode that ended in a brown trousers forced landing as well. That was up to the doors in water and we flew it out after a lots of repairs. Thanks to great techies!!
No serious incidents in the past?? I think not!

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

I also seem to remember an ex Army pilot on 33, nicknamed "Looney", who flew his Puma into the jungle canopy at night on a casevac between Rideau and Salamanca. Must have been '87/'88 ish.

Crewman yells "Up Up Up" as the trees start brushing the undercarriage, Co cries out "F:mad: me, I'm gonna die!", Looney responds with an armpit-ful of lever, low and behold it all goes dark and quiet until the NR winds up again and the gens come back on line!! Crew force landed in a small village, Gingers pitch up following morning with 4 new blades (to replace the battered ones that cut a few branches), slap them on and fly the old girl home.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I also seem to remember an ex Army pilot on 33, nicknamed "Looney", who flew his Puma into the jungle canopy at night on a casevac between Rideau and Salamanca. Must have been '87/'88 ish.Funny, when someone mentioned "No serious incidents" I, (twice), started to write this story but decided, for the benefit of those involved, not to write it. So, in the spirit of trying to locate the truth my version is:-

Chris, (Looney), L*****, (Sorry Chris, it was your nickname), and Andy [Last name on the tip of my tongue] were attempting to pick up a casualty from an old LZ deep in the mountains not too long after dark. Not sure how it occurred but a multiple tip strike occurred while trying to get in. I don't recall hearing about the Alts cutting out due to a loss of RRPM so I won't argue the point, (I got this story from Andy himself), but the biggest problem they had was the vibration that made all the instruments unreadable. They flew out of there and either the village hadn't yet cut off it's Genny or, (as I seem to remember it), they were flying around looking for somewhere to land and the village heard them and turned on the genny. Either way, they landed safely and the subsequent occurrences in my memory seem to gel with GHYH...

I say all of that with the detriment of almost 20 years of time having passed... Oh, it would have been 1987 or 1988 because Andy was relatively new and I was gone in mid 1988.

Someone recently told me Andy went Pilot and succeeded... If your watching this Andy... Congrats... You were a good man as was Chris.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

I believe the other guys on board were Budd P (co) and TT(crewman). The photos Andy (aka 'Arry or the xerox kid!) had seemed to show slightly more damage than a tip strike, more like holes in the blades mid section!!!

And yes, AP is now a pilot (having been a Nav as well!!), but flying a desk. Top bloke.

[Airborne Aircrew]

<LOL> I'll give you the "tip strike" on the grounds that it didn't come closer than about 1/3 of the way in on a couple of blades... I saw the piccies too... a few years ago... they were quite impressive... ;)

You have me with Bud P and TT... Old brain issue I guess... PM me please.. because I'm pretty sure I knew them but time takes it's toll... :*

And Andy and Chris were both good guys... Andy was always "hyper" and Chris was never really a "looney"... Well, sometimes he might have appeared so... but they were both effective and likable crew members and men. I'll stand by that statement... There were a lot worse and a few better in each of their trades.

[Fareastdriver]

In the middle of the 70s there were a couple of Scouts in Belize.. Having had lots of experience dragging Scouts back to Aldergrove I ventured an opinion to the O/C, a Major, that we might well have to do the same thing one day to one of his. He was adamant that there was absolutely no chance of this happening. Two days later a Scout landed on a narrow O/P pad on the ridge above the police station at the extreme south west corner of Belize, the clouds of smoke indicated a turbine seal failure.
Off two of us went, Dennis Holland in the other Puma as far as I remember. He had a winch, the REME in the back and I had the load pole. They winched the crew down who removed the blades and hooked it up to me. Whilst I took it to Salamanca Den picked up the crew and blades and followed on.
We had to refuel so I put the Scout on the road, it was disconnected and I took on as much fuel as I dared. I swear the Scout climbed up the strop as we cleared the trees but then the problems started. This Scout had a winch fitted and it refused to behave above 55 knots against a Scouts normal 95knots underslung cruise.
The Puma being a constant fuel consumption variable noise machine it was apparent that I did not have enough fuel at this speed to get to the airport. Something had to be done.
There was an airstrip halfway between Salamanca and the airport so I my plan was to land the Scout at this airstrip, Dennis’s passengers would unhook it, then he would shut down and guard it whilst I bolted off to the airport, refueled and came back. This we did and after refueling I beetled back for the Scout. It was now dark.
This wasn’t a problem, Dennis’s anti-col light was more than enough guidance and as I descended into the heart of the airstrip I switched on the landing light and we went IFR in mosquitoes. The poor sods down there had been tormented for an hour and they weren’t happy.
I flew it back to Belize International and as I knew it was the officer’s mess cinema night I trained the landing light on the Scout and flew it slowly round the camp.
The Major never spoke to me afterwards.

[Hachet Harry]

Anyway, good to see both the Army boys are OK! :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

It's been a very long time away from the Puma for me but I do remember that an electrical system mod was carried out after the fatal Salamanca accident.
The alternators used to drop off line after two seconds at a reduced, but relatively high rotor RPM. The mod was to leave them on line until a droop to a lower rotor RPM occurred. I can't recall the RRPM figures after nearly fourteen years.... (The significance of the alternators dropping off-line was that the single channel autopilot came off-line and so there was suddenly no attitiude stabilisation).

Edit:

A few rusty old cogs have turned. I now recall that the normal governed band for the Puma's Nr was 265 +/-7 and I think that the alternators were initially rigged to drop off line after 2 seconds at 240 Nr. If my old brain has dusted off the correct file, they were subsequently modified to stay on line until 220 Nr, after which they would drop off line as before. The logic was that it was sometimes impossible to regain the Nr above 240 within 2 seconds after a single engine failure at low speed; 220 Nr was more sustainable.

The Salamanca accident was horrendous, I'm very glad to hear that these two 412 pilots are OK.

[Fareastdriver]

Shy Torque
You are right about the mod but the Salamanca crash wasn’t the reason. The Puma was entering the civilian world and Group A performance requires the rotor to be deliberately drooped to 240 Rrpm on a single engined climb away after engine failure so the alternators have to stay on line. The Super Puma has a low Rrpm warning at 240 so you pull until it sounds and hold that to 500 ft. It wouldn’t have made any difference to Rog Whitely as the take off profile was totally different. I didn’t see him very much at Odiham but I did when he was an AEO on 90 Squadron. Nice chap, bloody shame.

[ShyTorque]

Fareastdriver,

I'm sure you're correct but the RAF's HC1 aircraft already in squadron service were modified / retrofitted 'post Salamanca' despite CAA Perf. A / Class 1 never having been an RAF requirement.

To be honest, I don't think the HC1 could comply with many CAA requirements even after 36 years in service, certainly not Perf. A. For example, in my three tours I considered having only one fire bottle between two engines a bit sparse in the peace of mind stakes, or a single tail rotor control cable breakage resulting in a servo runaway to full travel, not much of a luxury. Not to mention those 'uncrashworthy seats' over which the UK press found a shock horror story in the mid 80s. Good thing they never saw that Boscombe Handling Squadron report about the lack of engine response and tendency to suffer yaw roll divergence etc ;)

[pedroalpha]

The technical cause of the crash was a failure of the Simrit seal (oil/fuel interface) on one egine that caused it to run down to ground idle. The crew were on a practice medivac from a clearing that required a vertical climb out. As they approached the treee tops, one engine ran down, Nr dropped, alternators came off line and everything went dark. The HC1 is a high energy machine with lots of power on two. Lose an engine on a vertical climb out at night and you you are poorly placed in a blacked out cockpit. Our mantra in those days was single-engine safety speed (about 40 - 45 kts) that would keep you climbing in the event of an engine failure. Sadly, this crew had no chance and the subsequent fatal crash was inevitable. I too walked the crash site in the late 70s and felt deeply moved by the remaining artifacts still in evidence on the ground. It might have happened to any of us but - that is military flying.

Pedro

[serf]

What about the 212?

[philrigger]

;)
I believe that the Salamanca incident was in 1975/76. It was definitely before August '77 when I joined 230. My friend Barry Sutton was on the team that when down to recover bits for the BoI.
'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[oldbeefer]

Alternators definately trip at 220, as I found to my cost when rolling out from an enthisiastic quickstop in the 'playpen'. Didn't hit the ground, but it was close (and that was when I had 3000hrs on Puma). Can't believe there are STILL no anticipators on the engines - criminal! The tail rotor problem mentioned earlier in the thread was quite scary! 'Twas the origin of the tap-test that went on until composite tail blades were fitted.

[Fareastdriver]

Shy Torque.
There were stacks of things wrong with the Puma when it arrived.. Pilot’s angle of view, windscreen reflections, cockpit lighting plus a host of other things. The general opinion was that it wouldn’t last five years because of it’s fragility of construction compared with the Wessex.. After a series of incidents where the nose wheel retracted at 90 degrees there was serious consideration that the undercarriage should be locked down and isolated but despite this after 37 years they are still in service. The Anglo French Puma, Lynx, Gazelle deal meant that we had to have it, warts and all.
Even with the EU 225 you still have a fuselage which will fit into the back of a Nordatlas or a Wagon-Lis truck because that was a French Army requirement. The biggest mistake was made in about 1968 when Aerospatial were considering a five bladed head to cure the inherent 4R then some GOON invented the barbeque plate, an Achilles heel that has remained throughout the 330 and 332 until the 225.
As far as I can remember I was the first operational pilot to fly a Puma with plastic blades. I had retired from the RAF and was flying the J model for Bristow on my terminal leave. I wrote a very strong letter to Wg. Cdr. Harding, my old boss, pointing out they were globe movers as opposed to the metal blades we had with 1 hour BIM inspections. As a result of this a set of blades kipping in stores at Boscombe were sent to Odiham for trialing. The rest is history.
A 330C at 7000kgs can fly a Perf A take off profile eyes shut, but they don’t, so it doesn’t matter, because you need a prepared surface, i.e. a runway.
As you infer it is a requirement to have two fire bottles in civil life but it is primarily as a backup for one that does not work, not very often, and if the first bottle doesn’t put it out the second has little chance. Both engines on fire, forget it, nothings going to put that out. Overseas 332s have a gearbox bay fire warning but no extinguishers. At Crossmaglen after a downwind landing I had a very senior officer in the jump seat frantically gesticulating at the fire warnings lights which were both on. A wave of the hand failed to pacify him and it wasn’t until we crossed the sports field boundary outbound and they went out that he settled down.
Old Beefer
The Puma was heavily Sikorsky copied. Both the head and tail rotor. The autopilot was very a la S61 apart from magnetic breaks. The Super Frelon had the S64 rotor and transmission which is why the Frelon rotors go round the wrong way French style. The BIMs for the MR blades. The tail rotor blades had the same problems as Whirlwind and Wessex, delamination. Thats why they used to tap it with a shilling, sorry, 5p.
If the Wright brothers had built a Puma instead of their Flyer the Battle of Britain would have been fought with Pumas and Bolkows. They have both been in service that long.

[BRASSEMUP]

So anymore info on the 212? Hope the lads aren't seriously injured? And yes i know they walked away but its surprising how many injury's you can walk away with.

[oldbeefer]

[QUOTE=Fareastdriver;3532803] After a series of incidents where the nose wheel retracted at 90 degrees there was serious consideration that the undercarriage should be locked down and isolated but despite this after 37 years they are still in service. [QUOTE]


It was actually the nose leg extending too far when the end blew off the jack (I should know, I had the first one (at night) at Odious. There was no sandbag plan then! A restrictor was subsequently introduced to reduce the pressure to the nose jack during extension. Luckily, I raised the emerg undercarriage lever which stopped the fluid loss and I was able to get the AP back.

[Fareastdriver]

Exacty the same thing happened to me, mate. That range whatever it was called near Thetford. Great men have instantanious reflexes and pull the emergency undercarriage handle up, that's two of us. The nosewheel leg was learning against the forward wall of the nosewheel bay and they asked me to fly it back. FOinFP was my answer. Personally I thought it was Andy Sollitt at Aldergrove who had the first one.

[oldbeefer]

Personally I thought it was Andy Sollitt at Aldergrove who had the first one.

No - Pumas wern't in Ulster when this happened (from memory, Oct '71) - 'twas after my incident that the FRCs were changed to include raising the emerg handle in the event of fluid loss.:D

[nowherespecial]

With some honourable exceptions...
Can we get back on thread please? 212 crash in Belize, not 'A History of the Puma Force'.

[ShyTorque]

nowherespecial,

I'm sure we can when someone comes up with some relevant info....meanwhile, by posting on the topic, even if not directly related, it stays at the top of the page. ;)

Simrit seal failure - I'd forgotten that part. Double booster pumps eventually fitted to minimise the possibility of this happening again, as well as a back to back seal.

[serf]

Any 212 news....................

[Fareastdriver]

I cannot find anything apart from channel 7 Belize archives. It crashed, quite gently, caught fire and two staff sergeants got out, one with slight injuries to his mouth, aircraft or instructor? They were picked up fairly quickly by another helicopter and the MPs sealed the site. Nothing more to add as it is probably sub judice. I must admit that I am surprised that a 212 would catch fire so easily so maybe the reasons go a bit deeper. My past experiences of analyzing aircraft crashes have always been 180 out so I will leave it at that.

[Tail-take-off]

Which aircraft was it does anyone know?

[serf]

It was a 212.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I thought we were talking about Pumas here !!!!!!!!!!!!

[HaveQuick2]

"Which aircraft was it does anyone know?"


According to http://www.ukserials.com/ it was this one...

31170 ZJ965 Bell 212 Ex 5N-ALS, ex G-BJGU, w/o 05/09/2007

[Tiger_mate]

..and it wasnt this one, because the photograph was taken 2 Oct 07. From the UKAR website.
http://www.pbase.com/glane606/image/86569513.jpg

[XV277]

..and it wasnt this one, because the photograph was taken 2 Oct 07. From the UKAR website.
http://www.pbase.com/glane606/image/86569513.jpg

But can we be sure that is what it says - lookslike the serial has been re-painted......:cool:

[Tiger_mate]

I suspect not repainted, just wiped 'clean'. This type of aircraft gets filthy (exhaust) there which is why the Cyprus aircraft arrived matt and was repainted gloss during its major servicing. Gloss is wipe clean and matt retains the muck.

Now where is my anorak?

[nick986]

Look at the tail pylon and you will see the letter A this is ZJ964 B was 965 and C was 966.

[Tail-take-off]

A bit of trivia regarding the aircraft pictured (ZJ964) & the crashed aircraft (ZJ965) in that they have consecutive serial numbers & have always been on contract together and therefore had consecutive registrations in Singapore, UK, Nigeria & Belize.

Bell 212 > 212HP AH.1 s/n 31170 9V-BMG,G-BJGU,5N-ALS,G-BJGU,ZJ965

Bell 212 > 212HP AH.1 s/n 31171 9V-BMH,G-BJGV,5N-ALT,G-BJGV,ZJ964

[Thridle Op Des]

Poor old LS, I enjoyed 453.4 hours in the old girl.

[Tail-take-off]

I understand there is a replacement on the way. Another Bristow machine by any chance?

[africacorps]

One from Shawbury replaced it, ``G-BFER`` replaced that one after ferrying from Mauritania! :ok:

[Tiger_mate]

Actually one from Middle Wallop replaced it. Known locally as 'Kermit', or 'Huey Green' due to its interesting colour scheme.

The other one which may well be G-BFER is in bits at Shawbury and will reappear as a military machine at a future date. The tail boom was in the respray shop the other day, and not all of the serial was visible as the baggage door had been removed.

[Tail-take-off]

any updates on G-BFER?