Warning Shot !!!!

[sizematters]

Latest Info coming from GHQ seems they are pretty unhappy that we didn't vote on their generous offer, let alone accept it like the mindless drones we are...............................It now appears they will implement the cancellation of the Freighter Crewing agreement, sign the ASL chappies to the bottom of the seniority list along with the implementation of age 65 RA...........Oooops , nearly forgot, and for being naughty children
NO PAYRISE..........!!!!!
So I believe it is customary to fire a warning shot across the bows prior to engaging the enemy, so this would be a good time for the AoA to inform NR & Co that he has X weeks prior to the implementation of Contract Compliance, unless of course, they wish to talk turkey about $$$$$$$$ !!!!:ugh:

[Fly747]

KA boys and girls already in CC so why not join in CX and make it even more effective.

[newcrew]

Contract Compliance?

is this the same as work to rule?

[Frogman1484]

Ok so that can just add age 65 but if they do they will still have to pay bypass pay as it is in our contract.

They can add ASL guys to bottom of seniority list no problem.

Not sure if Freighter flying is in COS if it is not, they will be able to just trash it.

If they just do all of that well then we will have to see who will be able to resist not working on G days and who cannot stop looking at crew direct in between flight etc etc

[slapfaan]

AnAmusedReader:

Example: dear old deluded slapfaan who probably believes "everybody goes on strike,bringing all operations to a grinding halt.CX beggs all pilots to resume work again..in return for a 50% pay-rise..."

The comapny sits there happily knowing that will never happen and i'd wager that salapfaan would be the first to go to work if a strike was called. How many people in 2001 voted for industrial action but didn't support it? How many after the event said that they hadn't voted for it in the first place when the numbers who did vote for it made it obvious that all the denying members were lying?

Yes we must stand firm, grow our union and grow our balls - the girls too!!

Things are very much different now, than they were back then in 2001 mate!!

Yeah...so maybe "deluded old slapfaan" wasn't very far from wrong for suggesting industrial action...
Been in CX long enough to realise there's only ONE language that these jokers understand..and that's if we hit them..and hit them HARD..where it hurts!!!

[Westcoastcapt]

Good Morning everyone,

Just as we have seen in the past, people take a pretty tough line when they don't have to identify themselves. Just like in the schoolyard, they'll call people names from behind their backs, but don't have the balls to say it to them directly.

However, from what I've seen, those that talk the toughest, are the quickest to turn and run.

Been there and done that!

[ASH1111]

Clarification needed! Are you saying that they are implementing COS-08, and are going to withdraw any pay raises? I have phase 2 next month, and am hesitant about getting tangled up in the coming mess.

Is this rumor or coming fact?

Also what group are they talking about stapling to the bottom of the list, and how would this affect somebody going to class in February(DEFO)?

I know some things are dramatised on the net, but as a NA DEFO, it is sure tough to get a clear indication of just what exactly IS going on, and what WILL be going on.

Help...over..

[Frogman1484]

Directanywhere...were you looking at the DEFO deal with CX?

[The Management]

Spoiled Brats.

Like I said before, if we don’t get what we want we just implement it. So take us to court. It will get there in about 5 years but then we will not need the Freighter Agreement. The freighter agreement was made in honour only, you must have heard that before, as least some senior pilots have.

We will enjoy it if you try on “Contract Compliance”. There are some pilots we still need to dispose of. We will enjoy it more than before, so give us a test and you will see what happens.

Some nasty pilots at Dragonair that we need to dispose of, so keep it up DPA, it is coming.

Consider this your warning shot.

The Management

[ACMS]

Management.........you still lurking around here pretending to be management?

You pathetic little animal

Blow me

[Fly747]

I don't know if he is management or not but have always considered his posts to be rather black satire. You can certainly imagine our management thinking like that so as such his posts have certain value in giving us what may or may not be their slant on things.

[Numero Crunchero]

Newcrew
Kind of. It is not related to what you do at work. It is more about what you do with your time off. CX relies heavily on crew flexibility. Many years ago there were only work days and G days. After many bouts of contract compliance we now have O days(grey days), many more days on reserve and we have to call CX after every pattern terminating in HKG. This is due to past crew inflexibility. SO it basically means you don't answer the phone unless obligated to and you don't work on days off.

Ash1111
CX withdrew their pay offer - so no payrises planned. On the contrary, pay cuts are planned as if you start in Australia now as a DEFO in 2007 you would be on about $118K a year but on CoS08 you would be on $92-94K a year.

I assume you are talking about a US base? There are currently 2 pay scales - pax FO and freighter FO. Pax FO gets $103K and freighter gets $63K. The UFO(unified first officer) scale proposed would pay about $71K to fly either/both freighter and pax. It is hard to know for sure about that last figure as CX withdrew its pay offer.

Aircrew Services Limited was a company CX introduced in the mid 90s to circumvent our CoS(pay). IN late 99 the AOA gave the opportunity for ASL employees to join the CX seniority list as new joiners on 1/1/00 - they could remain in rank but could not transfer off freighter fleet until their seniority number allowed it. At this stage no ex ASL member has the seniority to be a pax captain.

Some ASL employees were close to or over 55 and to sign over would have meant immediate or impending retirement so they remained as ASL employees so they could work till RA60. Some other ASL employees decided their career was more important than being part of the CX seniority list so they remained in ASL to get an early command even though they were far from retirement age.

Because there is some animosity between the groups, as a CRM issue it was decided to not roster them to fly with CX employees. How this was effectively carried out was the creation of the FACA (Freighter Aircraft Crewing Agreement) which gives CX employees the option to NOT fly the freighter. As the ASL guys are effectively embargoed onto the freighter, those CX employees electing not to fly freighters do not mix with them on a flight deck thus preventing a CRM issue. New CX employees don't have this right as it is waived in one of your joining documents.

An additional concern CX pilots have is that when you fly the freighter you are subject to freighter rostering rules which are a lot more flexible for the company and more disruptive for your personal life.

The existence of the FACA removes much of CX's rostering flexibility as it is undermanned on the freighter fleet. The FACA would cease to exist if there were no ASL pilot(FE's excluded) employees.

The current PPRUNE rumour is that somehow CX will circumvent this by allowing these ASL pilots to resign from ASL and rejoin CX as junior employees. There are some contractual issues to be dealt with. Effectively CX would be recruiting direct entry captains which is not allowed within our CoS.

During negotiations, it was obvious that CX would like us to allow ASL pilots to join our seniority list wef 1/1/08 so that the FACA would cease to exist. We did point out that their other option was to fire the 41 ASL pilots but apparently CX only fires CX employees en masse, not ASL. Or maybe because the freighter fleet is so undermanned now those 41 pilots are more important than 49 pax pilots were 6 years ago.

Ash, if they were somehow to get on the seniority list on 1/1/08 then obviously they would be senior to you!

Management/ACMS
I love the satire and sarcasm;-)

[And Then]

Some nasty pilots at Dragonair that we need to dispose of, so keep it up DPA, it is coming.

What a load of crok!!!!!!!!

KA pilots are deserting. Six this week. Some replacement pilots aren't turning up for courses.

And Management, " The Management ", are looking at novel concepts such as the "get onboard" policy to address the serious crewing issues.

[The Management]

Ask around, no one is willing to support contract compliance. If they were willing, they would be doing it already.

If we completely throw out the Freighter Agreement, how many will say enough is enough? What will you do? What are you willing to do? Where will you go if you are terminated? How will you support your Family? Will your Wife allow you to participate? Can you afford all your houses? Not likely.

This only effects the Senior Fleet. Will the Airbus and B777 fleets willing to support the the B744. It doesn’t affect them and it is not their concern. They will not show their support.

What will the AOA do? Take us to court for breach of contract? See you in 5 or so years. The pilots will be so scared they will be flying our freighter aircraft all over the world.

We will put the ASL pilots on the bottom of the list and we don’t really care if it is breach of contract with regard to Direct Entry Captains. They are Captains and will remain Captains. If you don’t like it, take us to court.

If you would just stop beating your chest with all this talk of “Contract Compliance” we all know it is not going to happen, besides you are scaring the Captains.

We win yet again. Here's to our rather large bonus.

The Management

[WTB]

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[AnAmusedReader]

Do you really think that "Things are very much different now, than they were back then in 2001 mate!!"

Would you care to tell me what precisely? And please don't tell me about pilot shortages, no recruits, hundreds leaving, etc. because that really isn't happening no matter how much you think it is.

Do we have a solid group of pilots who will stand by each other so that you can prove you are not deluded? It's not delusional to suggest industrial action but it is stark raving delusional to think that you can deliver on your sentence "Been in CX long enough to realise there's only ONE language that these jokers understand..and that's if we hit them..and hit them HARD..where it hurts!!!"

If Nigel couldn't deliver in 2001, who can deliver now?

Hasn'rt history shown you that they hit back harder and then we all run and hide? Hit hard, take the hit back and then hit back even harder and be prepared for 15 rounds of it and I'll take back my words.

[Mr. Bloggs]

If someone has a bigger gun/army and you're smaller and with less weaponry, then the only thing to do is not go head to head.

Similar to what the North Vietnamese did to the Americans. Strike, run, hide, strike, run, hide.

A full out strike or sickout will not work.

What you have to do is a little sickness here, a little sickness there.
Don’t answer your phone ever on a 2747 number. It may inconvenience you a little but it hurts CX on flexibility. Just sign in on your regular duty. If everyone did this, CC would have mini crisis’s which in Time will escalate into something bigger if they don’t get it under control.

Don’t answer your hotel phone, don’t use discretion, don’t acknowledge crew direct, don’t answer you phone before reserve, don’t fly the freighter (think I beat that one to death).

Know the rules of your COS, AFTL’s, and Rostering Practices. Work within the rules.

This way not one pilots will have to put their head above the parapet. Just work to your contract. They don’t you favour's so you don’t do them any favours, easy. If asked why you don’t do something. well I’m too fatigued.

Death by a 1000 thorns if you will.

Or we just let them do as they please, your call. What ever that choice may be, don’t #?#?#?##? complain, I’m tired of it.:ugh:

IMHO most will do nothing.:{

[slapfaan]

Hasn'rt history shown you that they hit back harder and then we all run and hide? Hit hard, take the hit back and then hit back even harder and be prepared for 15 rounds of it and I'll take back my words

That's the spirit AnAmusedReader!! Keep running and hiding, and see what you achieve!And NO..the resignations/pilot shortages etc are NOT fictions of my imagination..they ARE actually taking place...

Mr Bloggs, well said.I can vow though that many mates are in fact doing EXACTLY what you suggest...sending a clear message to the 3/F that if they want a war..they'll get one!!!

...let the games begin....!!:O

[badairsucker]

If someone has a bigger gun/army and you're smaller and with less weaponry, then the only thing to do is not go head to head.

Similar to what the North Vietnamese did to the Americans. Strike, run, hide, strike, run, hide.

A full out strike or sickout will not work.

What you have to do is a little sickness here, a little sickness there.
Don’t answer your phone ever on a 2747 number. It may inconvenience you a little but it hurts CX on flexibility. Just sign in on your regular duty. If everyone did this, CC would have mini crisis’s which in Time will escalate into something bigger if they don’t get it under control.

Don’t answer your hotel phone, don’t use discretion, don’t acknowledge crew direct, don’t answer you phone before reserve, don’t fly the freighter (think I beat that one to death).

Know the rules of your COS, AFTL’s, and Rostering Practices. Work within the rules.

This way not one pilots will have to put their head above the parapet. Just work to your contract. They don’t you favour's so you don’t do them any favours, easy. If asked why you don’t do something. well I’m too fatigued.

Death by a 1000 thorns if you will.

Or we just let them do as they please, your call. What ever that choice may be, don’t #?#?#?##? complain, I’m tired of it.:ugh:

IMHO most will do nothing.:{All is left to say is......:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DSimple solution to the problem. Well done Bloggs.

[cpdude]

An army of one!:ok:

[Sqwak7700]

An army of one!

I like the way you think. :O:D

[Mr. Bloggs]

Well, like I said “Most will do nothing”. I think that ends your complaining.:sad:

[cxflyer]

I have been in this industry for 29yrs. For most of that time the "pilot shortage" was just around the corner. We never seemed to reach that corner....until now. I was just listening to the news and they had a representative from IFAPA on talking about the lack of new pilots and the consequences for world wide airline. Gents we now have the upper hand. Let NR&Co stomp their feet and jump up and down all they like. Eventually they will have to come to the table with real offers unless they want even more of their airplanes parked due to lack of crew.
We DON'T need any sort of industrial action, and we DON'T need to be talking to them about changes. Just do our jobs and let them stew in their own mess awhile. In fact it would be best for the AOA to stay home awhile. This company needs a lesson on "market forces" They need to show us the money, not just a few shinny trinkets! I here rumours a large number of our crew will be going to Virgin Australias new long haul, good. Good for them and good for us.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Wow, sounds like some would like to put some pressure on the company with these impending pilot shortages but with no action.

Maybe we can convince the younger pilots to do our dirty work for us. That way we might get some shares at 7.47 again. One can only hope.

Well if the pilot group had been smart you could have started over a year ago by not signing the RP 07 rostering deal. We gave them the flexibility and productivity increase they wanted and desperately needed by giving away

1. 5-4-3
2. 30 day free reserve
3. Flight Duty Period not starting after the 4 mark
4. Change of duty NOT NORMALLY being reserve

Could have put great pressure on the rostering situation.

With all those pilots that helped out flying the freighter during the summer has delayed the problems they are having with the freighter crewing at the moment. Thanks Gentlemen, you done a great service for the pilot group as a whole.

The CX pilots are not very smart when it comes to industrial matters. They can’t see past they own noses. They are willing to sacrifice another group (based or non based depending where you sit) so it may be marginally better for themselves.

We have to have our own house in order if we want to move forward, but that is not going to happen. We can’t work as one and will always have our own self interest groups.

You sold out and now you want it back. It’s not going to happen.

Good luck with that pay rise thingy, I’m sure they will give it to you on a silver salver.

Sorry Ed, how hard is it to keep the nerve by doing nothing. Should not be a problem for the average CX pilot. That is a funny one.:)

[Jose Jimenez]

I betcha that if we had just done nothing and accepted nothing over the past 10 or so years things would be better than they are now.

It's now our chance to finally do nothing. Sit back and calmly watch who starts negotiating with US! WE have the upper hand.

[sizematters]

Ah, yes , the old. "Stick my head in the sand" approach, well if your gonna stick your head in the sand, don't be too suprised when someone shoves something up your Ass !!!!..............

A couple of Interesting things,

1. The company will Impose a "Single digit" payrise on 1st January, details to be announced in October along with the rest of the "Plan" (COS08- in all but name)

2. The ASL Guys will be signed to the bottom of the Seniority list and the FACA torn up.......................

But that means the Company will Employ Direct Entry Captains.............Not quite in the spirit of the agreement Not to ever employ direct entry again !!! so supposedly the ASL guys will sign over as F/O's then be "Promoted" after 15 minutes "Service"..................

Don't think the , do nothing, that way I have nothing to fear approach will cut it !!!!

[Thunderbird4]

"The current PPRUNE rumour is that somehow CX will circumvent this by allowing these ASL pilots to resign from ASL and rejoin CX as junior employees. There are some contractual issues to be dealt with. Effectively CX would be recruiting direct entry captains which is not allowed within our CoS."
Hate to burst your bubble Numero C. But this has already happened. Checkout two chaps at the bottom of the seniority list. They quit ASL and joined CX with the seat intact effectively as DEC's (maybe CX classified it as Rapid Command). The rest of the gang will join on Jan 1 2008.

[poydras]

What you have to do is a little sickness here, a little sickness there.
Don’t answer your phone ever on a 2747 number. It may inconvenience you a little but it hurts CX on flexibility. Just sign in on your regular duty. If everyone did this, CC would have mini crisis’s which in Time will escalate into something bigger if they don’t get it under control.

Don’t answer your hotel phone, don’t use discretion, don’t acknowledge crew direct, don’t answer you phone before reserve, don’t fly the freighter (think I beat that one to death).

Know the rules of your COS, AFTL’s, and Rostering Practices. Work within the rules.


Basically, Fly the Contract!!!!!!!
How about a "Minimum effort" sticker to slap in the A/C as reminder??

[Numero Crunchero]

You guys are right. The way around this is to offer freighter (classic) commands based in HKG or somewhere unpopular - it goes down the seniority list until it gets to the recently joined, ex ASL scabs(whoops, did I say that out loud), who then conveniently walk into their old jobs. The only down side for them is that presumably they have to start on CN1 salary not whatever salary they are currently on.

So yes I believe the rumours are correct and CX will again make a mockery of our contract. Th FACA will be gone in early 2008.

Doing nothing will not work. If Isaac Newton were alive today he would have come up with a 4th law - "for every vacancy there is an applicant". With all due respect to my friends and ex colleagues in the sandpit, EK is living proof of this. They were taking everyone they could and the result is that many of the guys they took are incapable of being CNs and now EK have had DECs for a few years.

If CX lowered the standard we could ride it out for 10-15 years....presumably all the people now were recruited on the basis that they would be good enough to be CNs in CX. So who we recruit now only becomes a problem for CX in over a decade....and do you think the people making these decisions will still be around?

Two things will upset the apple cart - industrial action(not likely) and people leaving. So I personally don't believe pilot shortage will effect anything here - but thats just my opinion!

[Numero Crunchero]

True - I like to remain balanced, fair and forgiving but I fail sometimes. I have nothing against the guys that stayed in ASL because they were approaching 55. I have ZERO time for any that stayed because they wanted a quick command. The creation of ASL cost my peers years to command. ASL guys had a chance to come back in 2000. Those too selfish and self interested(and young enough) to join then have no sympathy with me. I think it would be a major CRM hazard to have them flying with anyone who was around back then. Fortunately, from a CRM point of view, they will all be CNs and so only flying with guys that joined CX from 2000 onwards.

[Numero Crunchero]

There have been pilots extending beyond 55th birthday on and off for over a decade depending on CX's needs. The previous DFO's extension incurred bypass pay as does our current GMA. There are people on bypass pay whether you see it or not. It generally goes to those categorised Cat C, and sinbinned, or those categorised Cat B. It is reasonably rare for anyone unassessed or any Cat A guys to get it as there are so many in the B+C categories. I remember back in 2001 seeing that a couple of Cat C guys had been getting bypass pay for over a year.

There are only 20 odd extendees that necessitate bypass pay....freighter pilot extensions do not incure bypass pay. There are a lot more than 20 Cat B+C. If(when) CoS08 comes in, about 1-2 years from now you will see plenty of Cat A or even unassessed FOs getting bypass pay when there are over 100+ extendees.

My opinion on extending - well, it has been in the contract since before my time. It is very easy for us well short of 55 to say you shouldn't extend. I won't presume to pass judgement for the majority. For myself, I would not accept the insult of inferior conditions. But then I think CX is just a job whereas for some, it is a way of life. I work to live, not live to work!

[BusyB]

ER,

How many people get bypass pay because of ASL Captains? I lost 3 years command pay because of ASL with no bypass pay. They do not compare with extendees in my book.

[The Management]

You are all cowards. Face it. You will never amount to anything.

The Management

[Numero Crunchero]

We are but a small component of the operational costs. Looking at CX numbers, inflight services cost was almost as great as our salary bill for the first six months of the year (CX only).

Aircrew salaries(+PF) contribute 5% to total operating cost of the airline. Fuel contributes almost 30%. I find it ironic that the last pay offer would have equated to about 2% of the FUEL costs, or well under 1% in total operating costs. If the AOA initial offer had been accepted then the total operating costs would have gone up by about 1.5% in 3 years time. That equates to about 5% of the total FUEL bill.

How much fuel do we strive to save on every flight? Its lucky for the company that it is our professionalism that encourages the same parsimonious approach to fuel uplift and burn as they have shown us in pay negotiations.

I also find it ironic that the critical restraining factor in growth is aircrew and that segment has been most neglected. Still, from a managerial point of view, what is to be gained from paying more or improving benefits? They have achieved huge productivity gains over the last 6 years without any additional pay or benefits. So I guess I can't blame them for thinking the current operating model of management is the correct one!

I guess we are stuck in Newton's first law - nothing will change until a force, extrinsic(recruiting) or intrinsic(IA or people leaving), is applied!

[The Management]

I guess we are stuck in Newton's first law - nothing will change until a force, extrinsic(recruiting) or intrinsic(IA or people leaving), is applied!

Mr. NC, see above post. Be Careful. Your posts are trending towards industrial. We know who you are.

The Management