FlyBe Sponsorship - Why are they doing it?

[Mach086]

Guys,

Just wanted to ask something. I have recently applied for the Flybe "Sponsorship" 2008 but I can not understand why Flybe are doing this. On their website, they say they have had over 800 applicants for the FO positions. Obviously they are not hiring 800 pilots!! so you would think that the ones who weren't successful would be in the pool if jobs come up.

So why are they now doing a "sponsorship" for new pilots with no more than 70 hours?? Surely, the pool is over flowing with 800 odd pilots with an ATPL. We can safely say at least 50% have gone through good Flight Schools where they had to have passed the psychometric, verbal, numerical tests etc..so no problem there. I just don't understand it. Flybe don't need to pay anything except the Type Rating.

Surely you guys that have an ATPL, landed yourself in debt, but still fly occasionaly (and paying hundreds of pounds extra) to build hours up must be pretty P!ssed off if you have now accumulated 100 hours or something? Could someone explain this to me?

Now I'm starting to see the point of that post "So Where are all the jobs then?" - the guy that wrote that must be seething.

Cheers

[Ian_Wannabe]

Is it not because airlines like to take people with little or no flying skills so that they can mould them into the "right" pilot for them?

I'm not an expert as you'll see from my other posts but Im sure there's a mind set in the industry that if you hire pilots who have experience, you're hiring their bad habits too?

[newbie008]

One guess -PR!?

[Neo_RS14]

Fair play for speaking up, I'm sure its crossed everyones minds. Not too mention the cost in admin fees for phase two and three, which I know have doubled since previous years.

Bet hey, they ARE doing it, so it's worth giving it your best shot if you are serious about getting what you want. I think Alex makes a good point, and it's always best to stay positive (not implying you were negative).

[Artificial Horizon]

As someone who did the FlyBe sponsorship many years ago I can tell you that the sponsorship doesn't cost FlyBe anything and infact I would go so far as to say that they profit for it. Candidate pays for all selection tests (Cabair makes profit) and then the Cadet puts up £45,000 ish for the course. I was told during my time that this covered the ENTIRE course cost as Cabair offers a discount to attract airline cadets as it is good for their image and also it is a guaranteed income for the 12-15 students per year that go through. On top of that once you start at Flybe you get paid substantially less than direct entry pilots for the first five years to 'recoup' training costs. As far as I see it this is pure profit for the airline in that over 5 years each canditate loses £20,000 in wages, if you multiply that by the 12 cadets then that is over £200,000 saved over direct hiring. And at the end of the day Flybe gets to publish a nice photo in Flyer/Flight International of the Cadets graduating.

Having said that, I went through it and now fly for another major airline on large jets and wouldn't trade it for the world because regardless of what flybe profit from it, a sponsorship always looks good on the c.v and the £45,000 outlay is still the cheapest way of doing the integrated course in the UK.:)

[Mach086]

"Is it not because airlines like to take people with little or no flying skills so that they can mould them into the "right" pilot for them?

I'm not an expert as you'll see from my other posts but Im sure there's a mind set in the industry that if you hire pilots who have experience, you're hiring their bad habits too? "

Well, if this is the case, what does this mean for all you guys out there that has spent every penny you have, remortgaged property in order to pay for your ATPL and have still not found a job?

What if their CV says they learnt at Cabair, CTC, Oxford? Surely they would not have picked up bad habits at these places, or if thtey did, it would be the same "bad" habits that the airline's own pilots have since they most probably trained at the schools I just mentioned.

I am just worried that I too may be in that position. Flybe state that there is no gurantee of a job. And you are held in a pool. And now hearing what Artificial Horizon mentioned, it seems that Flybe don't lose any money, and get a nice picture of themselves in Glossy Magazines with recruits graduating.

I'm just worried that in 2 years time, I would be writing the exact same post as that other guy did "So where are all the jobs then?"

I have still applied for the sponsorship and am obviously happy that they have offered this course. i guess I am just playing devi's advocate and questioning the intent.

[Superpilot]

Also, try investigation the links between FlyBE's recruitment bods and FTE. Bound to be something there! :rolleyes:

[Neo_RS14]

Great post Artificial Horizon!

Think you pretty much hit the nail bang on the head there. It's just annoying that we still have to pay back FlyBe's contribution really, from our wages.

[Agent Oringe]

Ian_Wannabe,

That's pretty NEGATIVE mate, if not a little arrogant.

"I'm not an expert as you'll see from my other posts but Im sure there's a mind set in the industry that if you hire pilots who have experience, you're hiring their bad habits too?"

So how come shed loads of Pilots are leaving Flybe in Droves with their "Bad Habits to go onto fly; 737, 747, 757, 767 & A319, 320, 321, 330, 340 ???:=:ugh:

Just be careful that you don't pick up any bad habits or you will remain a Wannabe for a very LOOOOOONG Time.:zzz:


For what it's worth, I wouldn't touch flymaybe with a very large barge pole. The 3 rounds of endurance that they laughingly call a selection process just proves what sort of world they are living in, the mind truly boggles.

[Ian_Wannabe]

Hmmm, the comment I left was an echo of what I was told by a training captain at CTC when I asked the very same question Mach was asking - the same theory was given to me when I asked another training captain for BA who lectured me for two years at an Aviation Academy so don't shoot the messenger Agent Oringe.
I was merely throwing in an opinion that I had heard, after all this is what these forums are for - discussion.
If you think I am arrogant then you are an idiot as you do not know me and I am far from that.
If you wouldnt touch Flybe with a barge pole then perhaps you're the one who could be jobless for a very long time should the unforseen happen and you lose your job? (Presuming you have CPL) I was sure convinced when I was told of their pass rates, quite impressive really...

Here's your A320 RHS with golden plated buttock warmers :ok:

[Bad Robot]

Perhaps your training Captains have the arrogance problem? Unless of course they have only flown for BA from day one and not imparted their bad habits, of which they would have no doubt inherited from previous airlines, to you during your training?

BR.

[expedite08]

Its all down to flybe looking good and getting thier name about, simple as that! It is a pain to know that there are many applications in from us mod guys and the integrated mincers get in there first. But as has been mentioned they have to jump through a lot more hoops than the rest of us for selection. The old adage applies, they may be able to pass some silly cryptic maths test, but from my experience they cant fly a plane to save thier lives!

[JamesTigris]

I agree that there can be alot of negativity in this industry, and maybe a little too much so at times, but looking at the situation for guys trying to force their way into an FO seat its is perhaps possible to at least sympathise.

People are describing this scheme as a positive move from FlyBe, which is a sad state of affiars for wanabes because (although I'm considering stage 2 of it at the moment) I really don't see that it is sponsorship in any way.

The scheme will cost over £65,000 to the cadet in the long run, there is no more assurance of a job than with other integrated schemes, and both FlyBe and CCAT have the right to simply decide they don't like you and recoup their 'costs' (which some have suggested they have never even spent!) directly from you/ your guarantor at any point in the process.

I'll probably explore it further by heading to stage 2 but my eyes are deffinatly wide open, there is no actual sponsorship (investment that they stand to loose) by the airline or the FTO and certainly no discount on traditional integrated training.

[AlexD121]

i think there have been some crossed wires going on here. FTE is mentioned in this thread but Flybe do NOT claim this to be sponsorship, it is known as the Mentored Airline Pilot Scheme. No mention of sponsorship is involved at all. As for Cabair, I don't know much about that scheme so I won't comment on it.

[Ian_Wannabe]

It really frustrates me that people are so quick to just say "X Airline are rubbish because I'm not getting paid as much etc etc".

Either these people are loaded and so they can pick and choose who they go with or they're just too picky.

Being from a family who has 1 car parked out side of a semi-detached house I would quite happily take this scheme regardless of it "not being a real sponsorship".

I think people realise its not a real sponsorship, PROPER sponsorships are nowhere to be seen now because of the way the industry is but at least its a chance for people to secure that HSBC loan with the backing of a company who are willing to help you get to where you want to be. You don’t have to stay there for life.

The annoying thing is that I bet those people who say "I wouldn’t touch Flybe with a barge pole" are already secured in a nice CPL job, or are the type of person who get through the selection process first time.

Be happy that someone is actually trying to hire, be it Tagged schemes or not, its better than nothing.

Also, "Perhaps your training Captains have the arrogance problem?"

Perhaps - but as I've stated I was just repeating an opinion which I happen to agree with. Is it not too difficult to think that an airline operates a certain way and therefore would like to take a pilot who hasn't picked certain dislikes from flying with a different airline?

[r44flyer]

I'll jump through hoops if it means a guaranteed job at the end of training, thanks very much.

There are many routes into the rhs of a commercial airliner and there will always be many opinions on which one is the best one, which one is a waste of money, yadda yadda yadda... each to their own I say, and if you want to pay £65k to get you that job asap, like I do, then go for it. If I don't manage a sponsored/mentored course then I'll do the modular route I expect, but with that comes the uncertainty of being able to secure the job I dream of.

In my opinion, I believe Flybe runs such a scheme on top of all the hundreds of applications they have taken for direct entry for reasons of loyalty, amonst others. I can only really comment based on my own position I suppose, but for wannabes applying to the 'sponsorship' scheme they will be bloody grateful if they get selected knowing that all they have to do is work hard for 18months and they'll be on the line living the dream. Flybe represents a great opportunity for a future career, with the option to progress onto jets without moving employers. They seem quite turned on to employee satisfaction from what I read, and no it's not all roses but then where is it?

I'm very interested in job stability as well as the opportunity to progress internally to jet, TRI, TRE etc. Direct entry pilots looking for a job at Flybe have already demonstrated that they are willing to up sticks to somewhere greener so what's to stop them doing the same again soon. Cadets on this scheme will go in at the bottom and there will be carrots on sticks in the form of jet jobs just a few years away, so Flybe gives them something to stop them getting too bored for a while. Hopefully any cadet starting in 2009 will still be with them 10-12 years after that, they lay the best groundwork possible at the beginning and then keeping employees is another challenge that every employer strives to get right.

Obviously Flybe benefit with the reduced salary that bonded pilots are on for 5 years, but I can't think of a way into this job that doesn't involve tightening the purse strings for a while at the beginning. Besides, even the reduced salary isn't my idea of a poor one!

[JamesTigris]

I totally agree with what people are saying, and its not a case of being picky as to who pays marginaly more than who. I just think it is important to recognise the 'Sponsorship Scheme' for what it is.

There is no guarenteed job at the end of the training (no matter how cleanly you get through the hoops, its clear that both the FTO and FlyBe have the authority to dispense with you at their discression and charge you for their costs). Neither are they obligated to employ you if you're successful, neither are you alowed to turn them down without penalty for up to two full years after graduating.

Neither FlyBe nor CCAT make any financial investment in your ATPL training whatsoever.

The use of the term 'sponsorship' is purely the poetic sense of the word!
That said, I'm heading along to stage 2 ;)

[Agent Oringe]

I simply cannot believe how naive some people are on here.

"Flybe represents a great opportunity for a future career, with the option to progress onto jets without moving employers."

I beg to differ, having read how impatient at lot of wannabees seem to be, I would hardly think that you will doing the time to wait for a JET postion, when once you have the hours required to move on to the likes of Easy, Virgin, BA or whoever you will be hanging around for a Sniff( Right word here) at a 146 or a 195? The 145's will have gone back to the lessors by the time most of you have the hours. There are only 11, 146's and allegedly 14, 195's by 2008 (subject to delivery problems being solved)vs 45 Q400's, plus options on 16 more Q400's. Do the maths. Most of those on the Jets are top of the seniority list and the seniorty list has just more than doubled with take over of BACON.


"They seem quite turned on to employee satisfaction from what I read, and no it's not all roses but then where is it?"

Some of you are clearly in for a very big Shock!:E


"Perhaps - but as I've stated I was just repeating an opinion which I happen to agree with. Is it not too difficult to think that an airline operates a certain way and therefore would like to take a pilot who hasn't picked certain dislikes from flying with a different airline?"

Can I then take it as read that;
a) You will remain at Flybe for the rest of of your entire career? I don't think so.
b) that you won't get all disgrunttled and start wingeing here on Pprunne, when after applying to BIG AIRWAYS at a later date and they refuse you for interview, as they have deemed you to be a training risk due to all those bad habits that you picked up from your TurboProp buddies?

I really think some of you need a reality check:ugh:

[Boing7117]

It really frustrates me that people are so quick to just say "X Airline are rubbish because I'm not getting paid as much etc etc".

I don't think people have the mindset that an airline is "rubbish" - simply put, an airline offering an opportunity to wannabee's is then going to pay you a salary which WILL NOT be enough to pay back a £65k loan.

Either these people are loaded and so they can pick and choose who they go with or they're just too picky.


I'm not loaded. Far from it. I don't even have a car outside my terraced house. But if I was offered a position with FlyBe I'd have to think very carefully about the financial risk to myself based on the amount of money I owe the bank - the repayments and the frequency of them based on a salary which doesn't go all that far these days.....

I'm not loaded. I'm not picky. But there's a fine line between being realistic and just getting that first job. For those in the OAT/FTE/Cabair HSBC £65k group such as myself - FlyBe is not such an attractive position.

[r44flyer]

You were naive once as well, Agent Oringe. ;)

I was expressing my opinion based on what comparatively little knowledge and experience I have of the industry. I don't pretend to know what the real deal is, how can I possibly given my position, so things may very well be different for me 5-6 years down the line. I didn't say you were guaranteed to progress onto 146/195, I said it was an option

I'm not having a dig here, I promise, that's not me. But, instead of screaming in disbelief at how stupid wannabes can be, enlighten us with some real world advice that we can all learn from. Those serious about all this will take note and will at least add it to the bundle of alternative opinions that float about on pprune ranging from how rosy everything is having gone from 150 to 777 for zero expenditure, to jobless bankruptcy.

On the other hand, it would appear every airline is out to get us so maybe I'll just give up and go and stack shelves at Tesco. :rolleyes:

[newbie008]

we were told by their training capt that some cadets were starting on the 195 as opposed to the Q400, so not everyone goes straight on to the small stuff

[Torycanyon]

I find that very hard to believe. This is probaby a fish to reel you in?

I think there would be a 3rd World War if that happened.
There is already enough grief over the Bacon pilots jumping the Q (400) and getting on the 195.:ugh:

[Canada Goose]

I was speaking to a frind of mine t'other day who works for Flybe as FO on Dash 400's. When I mentioned to him about Flybe only intersted in candidates from Integrated courses, he said that was not true ! He did however, say that some integrated get to go straight on 145's (as opposed to modular), but not all !

Don't shoot the msg'r !

CG.

[newbie008]

not fishing this is what we were told.

[Torycanyon]

It Looks like that you have been caught then.
Hook, Line and Sinker.:D

[Ian_Wannabe]

Having once stacked shelves at Tesco and now currently hanging round my Flying club on my lunch break I'm with R44:

"But, instead of screaming in disbelief at how stupid wannabes can be, enlighten us with some real world advice that we can all learn from. Those serious about all this will take note and will at least add it to the bundle of alternative opinions that float about on pprune ranging from how rosy everything is having gone from 150 to 777 for zero expenditure, to jobless bankruptcy"

It'd be nice to be helped instead of being sarcastically struck down for being "naive".

We all start somewhere

[Agent Oringe]

Naive? Probably not. Did my homework and research? Yes.
I also never had the luxury of the Internet either. I too, stacked shelves in Tesco's. I was on the phone every other day, which in it's self cost a small fortune and going to conferences such as the:-

BALPA Employment Opportunities Conference.

2007 EOC - Date: Saturday 20th October, 2007 - Renaissance Hotel, Bath Road, (Nr. Heathrow Airport), Middlesex The 11th Annual BALPA EOC – September 2006 Report from 23 airlines and agencies from around the world.

http://www.balpa.org/intranet/Members-Ar/Employment/Report%20on%20EOC%2006.pdf

Here is an Ideal opportunity to see if the Big Boys really give a tinkers cuss about your imaginary bad habits.
What you all need is a JOB flying and flying ANYTHING.
I appreciate that a lot of you have gone and spent or are about to consider spending thousands pursuing your dream job and that you are probably putting yourselves out of the same, by limiting the offers that you think that you'll accept.

Once you have a position, it is far, far easier to move on, it may not be your shinny new 777 just yet. You may have to consolidate/defer your financial arrangements but at least you will be in a position to move on.

Trust me, the CPL/ATPL/Tech Exams, GFT's/IR/ Type Ratings and the SIM etc, are a walk in the park compared to the stress that you are about go through over the next few years. It will certainly be character building, of that you can be certain.

Good luck to all, which ever choice you decide to make.:ok:

[r44flyer]

Agent Oringe, there is no substitute for hard work and diligence so well done for putting the effort in over the groundwork.

However, and if I have the wrong end of the stick with this one forgive me, tarring wannabes with the same brush regarding limiting your options because they want to fly shiny jets from the off is just not fair or correct. To paraphrase an aviation classic, I'd fly rubber dog**** out of Hong Kong (via piston twin!) if it meant getting a first commercial job... turboprops for Flybe is therefore a promotion ;)

Anyway, it's frustrating to see some wannabes with blinkers on to all but the creme de la creme of aviation careers, so I suppose I sympathise with your earlier thoughts to a degree. However, patience is all that's needed in a place like this, even in the face of constant repetition to/from new blood.

Thanks for the pointer on the BALPA conference, it seems like something I would be very interested in so may well pop down and fire some questions.

Out of genuine sympathetic interest have you yet managed to move types onto 737 or similar?

[Agent Oringe]

r44flyer,

Hopefully the penny will finally drop with some on this forum.
Preparation, groundwork and research is a must, if you are going to make a success of it.

Life in RVSM is very nice thank you for asking.;)

[r44flyer]

Life in RVSM is very nice thank you for asking.

Good good :ok: