Rules is rules! Jobsworth at Stansted

[JHC Wilton]

Take a look at this.
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/eveningstar/news/story.aspx?brand=ESTOnline&category=News&tBrand=ESTOnline&tCategory=News&itemid=IPED05%20Sep%202007%2015%3A12%3A41%3A420

[Navy_Adversary]

Well at least the RAF showed compassion:D

[teeteringhead]

It's something we (all the services) are very good at, and has little publicity outside the services.

A "Comp A", as I guess this was can use "fastest possible means" - often a helicopter, but I've also known of Timmys being turned back to FI to pick someone up, and Civ Pol being used to break into someone's parents' house to collect their (the parents) passports for a civ flight to Germany when it was the serviceperson who was dying......

[Gainesy]

I thought you could more or less go where and when you want under a "Rescue" callsign?:confused:

[stillin1]

Now here is a news item worth you Ppruning journos getting into the media:(.
Not the RAF's superb actions but the utterly ar*e "stick by the book" response from Stanstead (presumably from an ATCO. This is not a dig at ATC, merely the natural presumption that the Seaking would have been refused by ATC)!).
If you have a job of responsibility then you must be empowered to take responsibility. That must include busting the written rules and procedures when it is the correct thing to do, and when it can be done safely.:ugh:

[Bob the Doc]

Air Traffic will usually give medical flights direct routing but it's not a right as far as I know. Still think the tower at Stanstead should have let him in. Maybe they didn't have the full facts.

[chevvron]

ATC would not normally make this decision, it's the prerogative of the aerodrome authority, in this case BAA. ATC would have to inform BAA Duty Ops Mgr of the flight, and he/she would say yes or no.

[Wycombe]

Whoever is responsble, what an arse-up by BAA :E

Teeteringhead said:
I've also known of Timmys being turned back to FI to pick someone up

Indeed, I was once part of exactly that scenario - half an hour out from MPA, big 180, explanation from "up-front" - no-one complained or even batted an eye-lid :ok:

Appreciating that there may be many good reasons - wondered why this unfortunate chap was being flown to Stansted when the emergency he needed to get to was in Middlesborough? - must be some closer suitable H24 airfields?

[airborne_artist]

wondered why this unfortunate chap was being flown to Stansted

Perhaps he flew by CivAir to Stansted from Cyprus?

[Wycombe]

Maybe? I was assuming something military was conveying him to the UK, but as you say, CivAir can be used for "Comp A" if it's the soonest, closest.

[Saintsman]

I remember someone getting from Cyprus to The Falklands within 24 hours so that he could visit his father on his deathbed. He was looked after every step of the way.

It took him a week to get back mind.

[orgASMic]

Noise restrictions? My arrse! Restrictions are exactly that - they restrict to what is necessary, they are not a blanket ban. As if the SeaKing was any noisier than the jet he flew in on. And the one after it and the one after that, etc.
If this was an ATC decision then my civilian colleagues at Stansted should be ashamed of themselves.

[chevvron]

orgASMic; read post No 7.

[splitbrain]

My Comp-A from Cyprus was by Civair (Cyprus Airways) to Heathrow, final destination Gloucester. That was the most expedient method at the time, no mil flight back to UK until the Timmy Schedule the next day.

[Chris Kebab]

I can assure you that ATC do sometimes (emhasis sometimes) make these sorts of decision without onward/upwards referral.

Either way whoever did make this particular decision should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

[MaxReheat]

A spokesperson for BAA Stansted commented.............................?

[Gainesy]

I doubt a civvy would understand what a Comp A is. Maybe time to change the terminology to Emergency Leave or something?

[buoy15]

Maybe they were on tea break which takes priority over everything - to compromise, they could have put the SeaKing in the hold for 2 hours till they had finished - that would have been nice:D
I always said that BAA (and CAA) should have been on Maggies hit-list

[Rev I. Tin]

A couple of years ago, I attempted to book a Comp A from Aldergrove to Stansted on a 230 Puma.
I was told by the airport operating authority that Mil ac are not allowed to use Stansted past midnight due to noise abatement rules. Having pointed out we were a helicopter and not an afterburning FJ we were still refused.

[Roadster280]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=175114

Commence throat lumps.

[kokpit]

We had 2 Comp A's whilst in the RAF, wife and I both lost our fathers during a tour in the US, with both trips on BA. They seemed to know the circumstances, and we were upgraded on one of the trips.

The Comp Cell were beyond reproach, advising us of the quickest route available and asking whether we wanted anything different. Met at London by cab and whisked to Norwich and Luton respectively, in time on both occasions I hasten to add.

[Hoobie Schnaps]

MPA a while ago. Matelot on board black tube like thing declared as Comp A (although not informed until 20 minutes prior to pick up). Craft makes way towards FI and surfaces to Sea King above (Matelot informed 10 minutes before surfacing to pack bag as NOK is VSI). Winched onto Sea King which makes 90 min transit to MPA. Lands 100 M in front of 747 that has been delayed by 2 hours, is offloaded, handed ticket by mover and walked up steps to business class seat where he is briefed what will happen at Asi. At Asi, is marched down steps by mover and up steps to freighter Tristar that has delayed by X? hours at Asi that has engines running and heads straight for ISK or Lossie (cannot remember) to offload pax into MT to drive to hospital. I reckon he was on the ground for less than 5 minutes from being told that there was a problem to arriving and getting in car for dash to hospital.
One of the great redeeming features of serving is that I know that if it all goes pear shaped everyone involved will do their absolute best to get me home as fast as is possible.
HS

[JHC Wilton]

if it all goes pear shaped everyone involved will do their absolute best
...apart from Stansted Airport.

Are they alone in this policy?

I think we should be told.

[Mr Point]

Stansted ATC and the airport authorities knew about the arrival 12 hours earlier as it was a commercial flight from Cyprus. Fortunately very few Comp A's come up against this jobsworth attitude.

[transientdroop]

Guys let us not slate Stansted too heavily for actions of one controller.
A few years ago They opened at 4:30am on Boxing Day for fuel on my return from a medevac (4pm departure from Wattashame - Regent's Park to collect specialist baby team - Cardiff with many hours and cups of tea spent at the ambulance station next to the Millenium Stadium - to return via London).
Stansted were great - immediate recognition of the Rescue callsign with fuel and biscuits forthcoming! Thank you chaps. :D
Interestingly Heathrow were reticent to allow us to transit through an empty zone direct track from the north west to Regent's Park until we asked if they would explain the delay to the very sick babies parents who were listening to the radios on board.
Hey ho, some people might not understand, so just explain and it's amazing what can happen. :ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

Guys let us not slate Stansted too heavily for actions of one controller.

Guys what bit of "it is not the controllers airfield" do you fail to understand. I have handled many casevac flights here in NI . There has been no delay to ANY of them .The sky opens they go direct. IF however someone in BAA decides that THEIR airfield is unavailable then there is naff all an ATCO can do.

[dwhcomputers]

Its good to hear that with all the cutbacks that happened to the Forces in the last few years that the way the services look after Comp A cases has not changed.
In the middle 80s whilst on deployment with 1(F) in Denmark we had a comp A and there was no hesitation in ferrying an SAC back to Wittering in a 2 seater Harrier

[cornish-stormrider]

My only tale to tell is as part of the 33 team that generated a cab out of thin air to go and fetch a family for a vsi snco from somewhere in the westcountry. Harry Staish spoke to the boss, boss walks into the line and says I need a cab and a crew RTFN. Volunteers.......

Fastest, most professional and hugely teamworked generation of aircraft and half a sqn volunteering to fly it. It was friday afternoon as well

[detgnome]

Ironically the aircraft was vectored right over Stansted's in use threshold after it had departed its alternate pick up point, thus making something of a mockery of their intransigence in the first place...

[Two's in]

You might want to see what the self-appointed guardians of the peace are up to in trying to get Stansted's much-needed second runway shut down before it starts, as well as polishing their halos about the airport in general before you have a pop at the ATCO. These are professional timewasters trying to close down an entire airport. Feel free to write to them;

http://www.stopstanstedexpansion.com/index.html

From the BAA Website;

http://www.baa.com/assets//B2CPortal/Static%20Files/stal_feu04.pdf

[hollywood285]

I always said that BAA (and CAA) should have been on Maggies hit-list


Hear hear!!! The jobsworth load of tosser!!!!

[Tigs2]

I was a bit naughty once. I was carrying a girl in the back of a Puma, who had sufferred bad spinal and neck injuries. She had been put in a turning frame in a bid to keep her level at all times. We had to route through the London helilanes to get to the hospital at the Isle of Dogs. The controller said we must follow the Thames (as is normal), when we started taking the first bends in the river, it was clear that despite being in a turning frame the girl was sufferring imense pain, her doc was concerned. I informed the controller of the exact situation and the condition of the young girl, requesting special permission to fly direct lines accross the bends of the Thames. He came back and said no! because of noise abatement (1330 hrs!), I told him the girl was in severe pain and that her condition could even worsen. He still said no! I then told him I was going to do it anyway, if he didn't like it report me, If anyone complains of the noise, send the complaint to my boss, and if he didn't give me a service, I would squawk emergency, over central London. I flew in a straight line, got the service, no complaints to the boss and two years later, the girl was up and about and back to normal.

[anotherthing]

Mr Point (what an inappropriate name as in this case, you make no valid point) and others.

Instead of ranting on about what is undoubtedly a p**s poor show by someone at Stansted, why don't you get your facts correct and aim your frustrations at the correct miscreant instead of shooting from the hip and getting the wrong person.

You have had replies on here from people who are in the know about how things happen - i.e. ATCOs, (not including chris kebab, as reading his first post, he does not seem to understand civil ATC operations).

ATCOs at Stansted etc are there to provide a service - they do so within the rules laid down by the operating authority i.e. BAA in this instance. If an A/C wishes to arrive outside normal operating hours, permission MUST always be received from the Airfield Operating Authorities beforehand.

This FACT Mr Point, includes scheduled commercial A/C that for whatever reason are running late. There have been many passenger A/C diverted from destination because they could not land before the end of operating hours.

As someone rightly mentioned earlier, most civvies with no military background would not understand what a Comp A flight was. In the scheme of things and with regards to flight priority, a Comp A flight has no special status. Thats the black and white answer, though if it was made clear at the time what the implication was, most ATCOs (not including the complete to**er that Tigs2 has just written about), would move heaven and earth to get the flight in.... however, they cannot do this if:

a) they do not know the flight is Comp A (and they do not understand what it means)
b) the airport operating authority does not allow dispensation for the A/C to land.

So to the facts of the example from the thread - were ATC informed it was a Comp A flight and was it explained what this meant?

Unless an A/C is in an emergency, it is very difficult to get an out of hours landing nowadays, mainly because of the left wing NIMBYs. This is particularly relevant at Stansted with all the protests regarding expansion. The operating authorities i.e. the owners are not going to do anything that is going to further alienate them from th elocals.

The best way to prevent a repeat of this farce, is to have a set procedure for notification and handling of Comp A flights that require the use of civilian airfields. Only then will they get the treatment and handling they deserve

[Green Flash]

It sounds like Comp A might be an unkown thing in Civ ATC land, which surprises me somewhat. Maybe the next time the civ and mil ATC worlds get together it might be worth making all aware of what Comp A is and formalising the whole thing?

[eastern wiseguy]

It sounds like Comp A might be an unkown thing in Civ ATC land, which surprises me somewhat


With the exception of Atco's like me (Aldergrove since 1986),and ex service Atco's civilian ATC will have no idea what you are talking about.

[Phil_R]

"Comp A", in the absence of other information, would sound like a bigwig getting special treatment to me.

Only it isn't.

Phil

[chevvron]

I have 33 years of providing ATC at military and civil airfields and I've never heard of 'Comp A' status; I HAVE heard of Cat A priority flights, as have ALL other civilian controllers. If the people who handle bookings were made aware of this, things might go a little smoother when a military flight requests priority handing at a civil airfield.

[Green Flash]

Communications, communications, communications, as someone might have said. Oh well, maybe this thread might alert all concerned. Worth cross posting in the ATC forum? Presumably there must be a reverse arrangement ie medic/rozzer cabs cleared straight through MATZ's, or whatever?

[aluminium persuader]

Definitely worth posting in ATC. I'd also suggest a formal letter to all ATSUs, given the current mil situation.

[Roffa]

Just to add another civvie atco here that wouldn't have been aware of what Comp A meant either if used on the r/t.

Definitely worth trying to get something put out about it.

[Mmmmnice]

It's not the exclusive preserve of non-mil orgs to stall Comp cases. Having bust a gut to get a soldier from one end of Turkey to the other (during Op PROVIDE COMFORT) it was disappointing to hear that a VC10 at Incirlik wouldn't wait 5 mins for our arrival! Fortunately there was another one leaving a few hrs later - but that's not the way it should work.
Contrast this with the BA BAC One Eleven at Bremen that waited 20 mins in a similar situation, the German Air Trafficker who let us chat with him directly on Twr, then shoot an approach direct to the back of the parked a/c; and the Dispatch Clerk in Ops who filled out the flt plan to get us out afterwards - proving that it can work beautifully with a little help from flexible agencies!

[A and C]

Unfortunatly this flight could not have chosen to use an airfield with a more intransegent management, I have had to deal with these people from time to time and the ONLY thing that makes them move is a the remotest chance that something will effect the sales in the duty free shops and get in the way of the revinue stream.

Please don't blame the ATC unit as they are as frustrated as the rest of us with the BAA.

The truth of the matter is the in the eyes of the BAA they are running a very profitable shopping arcade with the airfield being a drain on these proffits, so anything that might effect this lucrative revinue stream is simply of no interest to them what so ever.

A few years back I had a nose gear fail to lock down at another BAA airport, the ATCO dealing with getting me into the hold and the other aircraft in the stream landed ahead of me had to field a phone call from the BAA duty manager requesting that we went to "another" airfield. No doubt the sales in the duty free shops were uppermost in the mind of this duty manager.

I hope the person in question got to the destination in time, I know that all the armed services work very well in these situations. I have to contrast the BAA's attitude with the attitude of the RAF when I was asked to transport the wife of a serviceman (who was in the FI) to be with his terminaly ill mother. The RAF could not have been of more help in letting me land at an RAF station and all the services that I needed arrived at the aircraft as if by magic.

As I said at the start of this post the BAA all told are not a very nice company to deal with but the Stansted management are by far the worst of the bunch.

[whowhenwhy]

Is ATC at Stansted even open at that time of night, or were they talking to one of the radar guys at LTCC? Whatever, anyone involved in the decision making process knows what a Cat A flight is, so whoever turned it away should be disgusted.

[eastern wiseguy]

Thats the point...they didn't(it would seem) call it CAT A which it wasn't but Comp A which is military and hence unknown to the majority of civvies.Again a little unfair lambasting the ATCO .:ugh:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

but Comp A which is military and hence unknown to the majority of civvies.Again a little unfair lambasting the ATCO .:ugh:

No it's not. If indeed it was the ATCO, he only had to ask.

[eastern wiseguy]

Read the thread.....the ATCO does not own the airfield...it seems BAA refused.....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Read the thread


I have, and repeat that if you civilian controllers, or anyone else for that matter, do not understand a request, it's only a matter of asking! If it was a BAA decision, then shame on them. Having "worked" with BAA both as a military and civilian aviator, I fully understand that many of their managers should not be left in charge of a child's Lego airport. However, aviation professionals should know how and when to ask appropriate questions, and then present their aviation challenged managers with the full facts. Of course this may have happened at Stansted:ok: