Descent into Stanstead.

[Avitor]

The flight will not be identified, I have no complaints about flight crew, I merely wish to describe a descent into Stanstead from a passenger point of view. I am not a nervous flyer, having flown in many types, private, military and commercial.
My position in the cabin was behind the Port wing. Engines cut to idle, flaps set, they were to remain, apparently, at a constant setting. Descent begins.
We entered cloud, very shortly, the aircraft 'appeared' to experience an uncontrolled drop, stabilised, then dropped yet again not so much the second time, exclamations from many passengers.
Descent continues, no discernible change in engine revs, no movement on flaps.
Runway comes into sight, I wait for touch down, then the aircraft dropped out of the sky with much force, so much so, that I was flung forward from the lap belt up, into the seat in front of me, as I was looking out of the window, it was the side of my head which hit the seat.
I will not go into detail about the resulting lower abdomen pain, it cleared up within 3 days.
Any idea what the pilot was confronted with? Again, no complaints.
We are looking at a 737 which had no wing tip vortex foils, perhaps an older version?

[Pax Vobiscum]

To the tune of "Guantanamera"
One 'A' in Stansted
There's only one 'A' in Stansted
One 'A' in Stansted
There's only one 'A' in Stansted
(rpt)

Welcome to the mad, mad world of PPRuNe, Avitor

[Avitor]

:)Ahhh! You've probably identified the problem Pax. Stansted. I must remember that Monday morning, when I set off again. LOL. :cool:

[pacer142]

Now try flying into LCY in a Fokker 50 on a windy day...

[fyrefli]

We entered cloud, very shortly, the aircraft 'appeared' to experience an uncontrolled drop, stabilised, then dropped yet again

The fluffy things that you (sometimes) see at and above (or in fact below) dewpoint, i.e. clouds, don't just appear there; they started all the way back down on the ground. They get there in largely invisible columns of rising air called thermals, which in the UK tend to be rising at anything from one to four or five metres/second; on the outside of the thermal, there's loads of air going back down again at the same or similar rate. The thermals carry on into the cloud and eventually peter out; sometimes this takes a long time and you end up with a "Marge Simpson" billowing up to many thousands of metres (depending on lapse rate - how fast the air temperature changes with height - amongst other things).

So when you fly through or just below a cloud that's forming (or at least whose thermal is still active), you're flying through a load of air that's going down really fast, then a load of air that's going up really fast, then another load of air that's going down really fast.

Believe it or not, some of us do this for fun, sitting in a bucket seat, tied by loads of hi-tec string to a couple of layers of sailcloth :D

[Alanwsg]

Hmmm ... another paraglider pilot keeping an eye on what the professionals are up to! :)

[Avitor]

Not really, I am more interested in what problems the professional encountered. :=

Perhaps a polite pilot might tell me why the aircraft fell out of the sky, as opposed to landing. ;)

[PAXboy]

Not being a pilot, Avitor, I try to be a a polite pax.

The full answer was provided by fyrefli. Thermals can start close to the ground and there are cross winds - often generated by obstacles near the air field and ones that you cannot see but still affect the movement of wind. These air flows cannot be seen and are constantly changing their shape, speed and direction. That is why we pay pilots good money and, once in a while, all of their best efforts and training land up with the wheels meeting the ground at a higher speed than they want.

I have been on such landings myself, notably at Munich airport one evening. I was at a window seat and observing the approach and was not surprised that the landing was a stronger bump than usual. The pax who were not in this position called out in surprise and mild shock The aircraft is physically able to take these events and one of the main reasons that people comment about them, is that they are so rare. I can think of only two or three such landings in over 40 years as pax.

[Avitor]

Thankyou PAXboy. We were well out of cloud before we 'touched down'.
I am wondering if the thermals affected landing speed to such an extent, that the aircraft stalled at point of touch down. :confused:

[fyrefli]

Not really, I am more interested in what problems the professional encountered.

Alanwsg meant that I'm a paraglider pilot.

(I was specifically replying to the part of your post about what was happening to you near the clouds, hence why I quoted that part of your original post.)

The air is not an inert medium; as PAXboy has pointed out, there are a variety of other things going on all the way from the ground to the heavens and, whilst your passenger transport aircraft has a lot of momentum on its side, it's far from immune to these effects. Near the ground there are a huge number of influences on the flow of the air as it is affected by temperature differentials, buildings, terrain features etc. This is why in any aircraft the most critical phases of flight are close to the ground - and why altitude is a good thing :)

[Avitor]

Thanks for that fyrefli.
As I say, I am an experienced flyer, private, military and commercial. This was the hardest landing I have ever encountered.

If there were no gear damage, it was a very close thing. :eek:

[PaperTiger]

I am wondering if the thermals affected landing speed to such an extent, that the aircraft stalled at point of touch down.I doubt your flight stalled, just sounds like winds variable and gusting which can result in a number of factors preventing a 'greaser'.

Very occasionally a stalled landing can happen. An (ahem) acquaintance of mine managed it in a 737. Hot day, long float in ground effect, nice long runway; ahh what the he11 let the ****er land itself :O

[Avitor]

I am, by choice, using the same ailine this weekend, on an outward flight.
Thankyou all for taking the trouble to offer your comments. :ok:

[Rainboe]

If there were no gear damage, it was a very close thing.
An arrogant statement, taking an expert judgement on yourself. Believe me, you can do some very hard landings and come nowhere near to damaging the gear. Stop being a wuss.

[Avitor]

It WAS a very hard landing guvnor. Take note, I was there. :suspect:

[BusBoy]

Avitor - Hard Landing, so the aircraft was taken out of service for the hard landing checks was it? No it wasn't, no A/c at STN (or NCL/BFS) has been in Sept.

In a less flippant tone, a hard landing (only had one so far!) is nasty and the G loads are cosiderable. But the term "Hard Landing" is specific to one that exceeds certain parameters. It is a long way from a firm touchdown to a hard landing, so unless you were sitting with a G meter......

[SXB]

If you lean forward and look sideways out of the window when a plane is landing you have a fair chance of being jolted into the seat in front of you. I've experienced many 'firm' landings where if I'd have been leaning forward I'd have banged my head. I once banged my head on the wall of the plane because I was asleep when it landed. Basically, you need to prepare yourself for the moment the wheels touch the ground and be sat properly in your seat and not leant forward looking out of the window.

[Avitor]

BusBoy. The landing occured on the 24th June.... XLA.

SXB....You could not be more correct, I have chastised myself for my stupid positioning. That will not happen again. It hurt. :ok:

ps. I hope members take this thread as a learning curve, for myself and perhaps others. I am spouting nothing, I am prompting. :confused:

[B757-200]

You seem to os suffered from Ryanairism just like me!

2 years ago i had a horrible descent into Stansted With Ryanair. Pilot was apparently trying to get to stansted before it shut at midnight.

[Rickenbacker69]

Had the same experience myself on a Ryanair flight so Stansted in august. Hardest landing I've ever experienced in an airliner (hell, harder even than my first attempts at landing a taildragger, and those weren't pretty :)). Probably not critical, but it did surprise me (and make my ass hurt, those Ryanair seats are only padded as much as they HAVE to be I guess).

Is there a gravel pit at the end of the runway at Stansted or something? I'm a glider pilot, and the general feeling was that we moved right out of a thermal and into its accompanying huge sink on the downwind side. Only the ground is usually a little further away when I do this myself :).

[fyrefli]

Is there a gravel pit at the end of the runway at Stansted or something? I'm a glider pilot, and the general feeling was that we moved right out of a thermal and into its accompanying huge sink on the downwind side. Only the ground is usually a little further away when I do this myself .
As pax I'm familiar with the feeling described above by Rickenbacker69 - this is the sort of time, normally somewhere near cloudbase when it's post cold-frontal, and I sit and enjoy working out where the thermal activity is while some of the other SLF grip their seats (and buttocks!) a bit more tightly :)

From a gliding perspective, looking at Google Earth, the approach to runway 23 doesn't have anything like that (although you'd be wary of the buildings if there were a significant Southerly component). The approach to runway 05 looks like you'd treat it with some additional caution if the true wind had a lot of North in it.

Disclaimer: I'm answering a specific question from the point of view of someone used to planning outlandings in unfamiliar terrain and assessing likely turbulence. I've never flown into Stansted and am not trying to say what it could be like as pilot of a commercial airliner.

[WHBM]

If you want to trace back your flight and look at the altitudes it was maintaining, look here :

http://stn.webtrak-lochard.com/template/index.html

I am guessing you will find it was perfectly normal.

[Nicholas49]

This thread is clearly going to get personal now that the "R" word has been mentioned. :)

[Atishoo]

My Husband flew out of Stansted on an Ezy flt 10 days ago to Malaga. He is a great flyer, far better than me, the plane could be diving outta the sky, he wouldnt flinch. But he said the landing in Malaga was worst ever. He flies loads.

He said the descent was fine cloudless skies lovely and smooth but as they came in to touch down it was like the elastic band snapped and the plane fell onto the runway with such a bump it nearly wobbled him out of his seat LOL He said everyone in the cabin just looked at each other with open mouths, but the run down the runway was fine and they came to a safe stop. !!

I was just wondering, is it sort of like learner drivers with the Pilots? in that obviously they have to get experience at landings, but are some just either much worse drivers as others, or maybe could it have been the Pilots 1st landing or first few landings, does experience make a differnce as to how smooth it can be??

[Final 3 Greens]

I was just wondering, is it sort of like learner drivers with the Pilots? in that obviously they have to get experience at landings, but are some just either much worse drivers as others, or maybe could it have been the Pilots 1st landing or first few landings, does experience make a differnce as to how smooth it can be??

Some of them are very bad drivers indeed, but when they get experience they do get better, because if they land badly the cabin crew really beat them up after the passengers have left the aeroplane.

One young first office was hospitalised as a result of doing a heavy landing recently.

[Nicholas49]

Careful Atishoo, you're on vvvvvvery thin ice now. :)

[Flapping_Madly]

This reminded me of a very hard landing at Luton many years ago on Monarch.

I was surprised that the pilot came on the speakers and said ,IIRC, " Sorry about that folks it was a bit bumpy but I do like to stick 'em firmly on the ground"

Made most people on board laugh.:)

[Atishoo]

Why am i on thin ice?????????

I thought it was a valid enough question without being offensive wasnt it?

[TightSlot]

Atishoo - ref thin ice...

Pilots tend, understandably in my view, to be a little sensitive about criticism of their landings by non-flying others. One of the first pieces of advice I pass on to new-hire Cabin Crew is never to pass comment after the event: On the wrong day, or at the wrong time, the results can be a little frosty to say the least.

Here are a few points that may help you:


A good approach doesn't always result in a soft touchdown, neither does a poor approach gaurantee a hard one. Sometimes, the last 10 feet just melt away and it gets planted - that's the nature of the beast.
Perception of the 'hardness' of a touchdown can vary by aircraft type and by where you are sitting on that aircraft.
Some aircraft (often with bigger wings) can be more prone to 'soft' touchdowns. Some aircraft (e.g. 767) may have landing gear configurations that don't help greasers.
Under certain circumstances (e.g. runway length, obstructions, overrun obstacles, surface condition) a 'hard' touchdown is the best way to put the aircraft down. Aircraft are very strong and can cope with some serious abuse.
Busy airfields with a line of traffic waiting to land may request a turn-off the runway as soon as possible, resulting in braking that may appear harder than necessary.
Experience improves everything, but no pilot is allowed to land an aircraft without having proved exhaustively in the sim that He/She can do so already: Both customers and airframes are expensive things to break, so airlines try hard not to do so.

[answer=42]

A few months ago I was on a 737-3/4/500 (can't remember exactly) into LGW. Stinking cross-winds, gusting right down to the ground.

Lovely landing.

Captain Nigel comes on the passenger address system: (cue plummy accent) 'I think you would all like to join me in thanking First Officer (insert name here) for a fine landing in rather challenging conditions.'

Thanks to both.