Is It Worth It Anymore?

[Atomic Rooster]

I've been a visitor for at least 6 years now to pprune and back then it was very much my plan to be an airline pilot. I've been in a position to apply to airlines now for about 2 years and have been rather selective in who I have been applying to for various reasons, but to no avail, not even an interview ! However, I am having serious doubts as to whether I really want this anymore ! Which is my reason for this post - I wanted to solicit thoughts from those of you who are in the industry to help me make reach a decision one way or the other.

It seems to me that many many pilots are not happy with their lot (and I don't know if it's just me but it seems to have gotten more negative on here in recent years), and I know that can be said for many industries, but I have heard some pilots say 'if I knew now what I knew back then I wouldn't have bothered !'. Conversely, there are those who seem fairly happy with their lot and dismiss pprune as being just full of negative people. The way I see it is I have a lot to lose and although I feel I would always be able to return to my current career as an engineer I don't want to make that final leap of faith only to find myself after 2 or 3 years in disillusioned and even more worse off financially than before I did flight training. Some info on me to set the picture straight, I'm early 40, married with 2 young kids, work 4 days a week and earn around £65k (weekends off). Now I know it's not always about the money and there are some airlines that pay FO's a fairly decent starting salary, but let's say a TP operator, rosters 6/2, forget xmas (got kids), starting FO salary wouldn't even allow me to make mortgage repayments, however, my wife also works (part-time) so we could do it, but it would be tough ! I guess I always knew it wouldn't be easy but time has moved on and I'm reasonably happy with the status quo, but still have this nagging itch - should I give it a final crack !?
I know at the end of the day, it's horses for course and everyone's circumstances are different. What do you think ?

Thanks.
AR.

BTW - Although I can afford it I am against paying for a TR. I just think it's wrong and would rather spend the money paying off my mortgage !!

[BaggageBob]

You should obviously do what you think is right - only you can make that descision.
However, For what its worth; I would stay as you are, get a PPL, buy a share in a light single, and enjoy flying.
There are many pilots I know returning to GA to do some real hands on flying. (Whilst maintaing their airline jobs just to pay the bills)
Cheers

[Rainboe]

Without being brutal, it's not for you mate. When I converted, I was with a bunch of guys paying 20k for a TR and another 10k for 100 hours (which still doesn't get you there!). You've got a great job, well paid, and a family who shouldn't have to sacrifice their lives on the altar of your ambition, as you can see. It's not just a financial transaction- it can be as much of a calling as for the people who go into religion in a big way. Your aviation 'bite' is not severe.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Pprune has always been full of wingers.

[Autobrake Low]

Atomic roster - when i started in aviation people were saying exactly the same thing. I got my first job on turbo-props and I remember meeting the chief pilot of a low cost 737 outfit and when asked about job prospects simply replied 'that Dash 8 is the most fun you will have I would stay there'. It hasnt gone unnoticed that all these people saying that only talk the talk but never walk the walk if you excuse the cheesy line. People who complain it is not what I joined up for - its not worth it to be away from home etc. They are still there though! I am on my 3rd airline and flying longhaul and still loving it and I would say that it most definitely is worth it. People of our 'ilk' do not just fall into this job but have a genuine interest and motivation and it is hard to not enjoy it when you have completed your training and are flying for a living. Go for it!

[Dani]

If you don't know whether you should do it, you shouldn't do it. It's as simple as that. You have to be absolutely sure that flying is your thing. Then go for it 100%.

There are always people complaining. There will always be drawbacks. There is always a bad job with low pay. But only the people who were not really sure in the beginning are complaining now. The others just enjoy it.

btw the prospects have never been better (unless Osama strikes again), and it has never been easier to get a jet job after 200 hrs.

Dani

[Jenson Button]

Atomic,

I had the same conversation with a mate of mine who was wondering whether to go for it all guns blazing and land that lucrative first airline job. There are a few who do not get you to pay for a type rating such as Flybe and bmi regional for that first job. However those companies are looking for someone with a little bit of commercial experience first. During a feeding frenzy airlines will just about hire a monkey with a licence, but at the moment I don't think those times are now.
As the saying goes, do you feel lucky ?? Of ten guys I trainined with back in 2001, I'm one of a few who got a commercial job. The others part time instruct or packed up their bags.

Your family will suffer a bit, if a career in the airline industry is your goal, be prepared to sacrifice many of your weekends. Annual leave can be a bit of a lottery and you might not get school holiday time off.

As for the money, a tube driver gets more than me. F/O salaries are pretty dismal.

The job though is great fun, great people to work with, interesting places to go to and the flying although mostly autopilot is still very challenging.

Good luck with your decision

Jenson:)

[Monty77]

If you like your current job, stick with it and just pay to fly for fun, doing what YOU want, when YOU want. Kids grow up far too fast and are more important than a job flying people from A to B. I have sat through some truly appalling nativity plays but would rather do all that and have a hand in first bicycle solos than hear about it on the phone in a hotel down route.

Not knocking the airlines, but if I'd rather have a go in a Pitts than an Airbus. If it's an easy matter to return to your 4 day week job after a couple of years then you may have less to lose. Whatever your circumstances, all the best.:)

[Knee Trembler]

It's a tough one to answer, and like many things in life it depends on your point of view.

One deciding factor is age. Whilst you can get into commercial flying at any age, it certainly becomes harder over 35, simply because the profile of the average FO still tends to be mid late 20s and there are plenty of captains who apply the template to all. If you've had any sort of responsibililty in your job it can be hard to adjust to being the 'least important person on the flight'. I certainly know a few people who have had problems with this, turned bitter and then sealed their fate as long term FOs.

It's also worth remembering that as a pilot you are only good for one thing and the longer you do it the harder it is to break free. Thankfully the medical is harder to lose in one's early years than in the past and I can happily say that I don't know anyone under 40 who has lost theirs. But if you do lose your job (as I did for nearly two years) it can be a bitter pill to go back to stacking shelves (literally) on minimum wage.

That said, when times are good it's a great life and you should certainly not believe half of the cr-p you read here. I was at XL for a year and the bullsh-t I read in the threads in this forum comes from a fairly small minority with an axe to grind. I suspect the same is true of other companies.

I suppose the bottom line is to ask yourself what you want to tell your grandchildren. If you're happy as you are then that's fine, but if you still harbour the flame to give it a try then don't let pprune put you off. After all you can always go back to the day job!

Good luck in your decision.

KT

[Bob Lenahan]

To a twenty year old I'd say, "What would you rather do- sell shoes for a department store or fly?". You're forty with a full size family with a set standard of living. That's a major sacrifice. Forty year old co-pilot flying with a 30 year old captain, I'm not sure you'd really like that.

[Seat1APlease]

You shouldn't really ask how does it compare now, but rather how will it compare in five or ten years time.
Average salaries and conditions, with a very few exceptions, are lower now than they were ten years ago in real terms, and I can't see any great improvement on the horizon with more and more LCC's desperate to undercut each other at their employees expense. It will probably take ten years to get back to the sort of money you are getting now.
It is also worth remembering that the days of generous pensions are over. Fly for twenty years now, starting on a co-pilots salary and ask yourself what sort or retirement you will be able to afford. If your heart really is set on it then go for it, but do it with eyes fully open and without the rose tinted glasses.

[Don Coyote]

The main reason I still do this job is that it pays good money. Whilst I love flying, airline flying is far from exciting, the glamour has pretty much gone and don't even get me started on being treated like a criminal at security.

You are paid a good salary for only 4 days a week work and weekends off too. Pro rata you are on better money than myself as a jet aircraft captain and you have the luxury of knowing when your days off are for the rest of the year.

You don't mention whether you enjoy your job or if it involves shifts but I would say that your quality of life could easily be as good as that of an airline pilot and you are better paid than the majority of first officers which is where you will be for a number of years.

Enjoy your life and with your spare cash do some fun flying.

[Backwater]

In my view, stay where you are. Four days a week, weekends and xmas off? It's a no-brainer. And here's the important bit - you'll live longer. All the disrupted patterns and night flights which are the core of the long-haul pilot will take years off your life expectancy. For that reason I and many of my friends are looking at ways out of the profession.
Good luck in your decision.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Flying is wonderful, of that there is no doubt. I have really enjoyed my years as a professional pilot, but I'm getting out.

I've worked for good companies and a couple of downright appalling ones, but I always enjoyed the flying and working with my colleagues.

BUT I'm bored! Airline flying is exciting to start with, but after a while it is dull. That's a good thing from a safety point of view, but it doesn't exactly tax your brain.

So I'm off to become a leach on society as a Lawyer, specialising in aviation obviously!

There's some good advice here from others, but only you can answer how burning your passion for flying is. If it is all consuming, then go for it. If not, stay where you are and buy a fun aircraft.

That's what I'll be doing, at least in the future I'll actually be able to afford to pay for flying!!

[captjns]

Flying for me has provided me with great joys, opportunities to visit the globe, fly different equipment, and meet truly fantastic people from around the world. But, I have also kept my aviation career in its proper perspective… jobs come and go.

With the turmoil that occurred in the ‘70s I chose to never rely on aviation as my primary source of income. I started and still maintain a business that has nothing to do with aviation. With this in mind, I have the opportunity to fly with different carriers worldwide. I get board with the same routes, hotels, crew meals, bases… etc. I guess, I am a vagabond pilot, so to say. But I will say this... the worst day in the cockpit still beats the best day at the office, I have no regrets at all.

However with this in mind, I was and still am responsible for my own benefits not limited to retirement and health care. But that’s what why I started and still maintain my business. I don’t want to wake up to my worst fear and have my retirement and health plans terminated.

[CEJM]

As mentioned before only YOU can make the decision if its worthwhile for YOU.

I have to agree with a lot of the reply's so far. However there are also a lot of pilots who do enjoy their job and don't want to do a different job for all the money in the world. As many opinions as pilots.

I started of as an aircraft engineer and loved my job as it was challeging and rewarding. Seen a big part of the globe as an engineer solving problems on our fleet or when providing technical assistance during a wet lease etc.

Left engineering to start flying but on my days off i still worked for an engineering company to keep my license valid. After flying for several years (shorthaul and longhaul) the flying got a bit dull and i started to look out for different challenges. Fortunately my part-time job as an engineer gave me the challenges i was looking for.

In the end decided to start my own company as a hobby and not really to make the big bucks. Through time the company grew bigger and the roles have changed now. The company is my main source of income and i now fly part-time as a hobby. Don't want to give up the flying completely as i really enjoy it.

Why don't you try and work for an airline? If you don't like it you can always return to being an engineer. It's better to say; Ok. i have tried it but its not for me. than in 15 years regretting you havent done it.

Just my 2P. Good luck with the decision.

CEJM

[khawar rashid]

enjoy week ends with ur wife & kids be with ur family when they need u the most in happiness and sorrow,instead of sitting in a hotel thinking u should be with them in this time of need,moreover SIMS AND MEDICLEs every six month to renew ur job stay putt and enjoy what u have

[woodyspooney]

I retired some months ago and am now itching to get back into action again; I've endured countless medicals, sim checks and line checks. I have been conditioned and hardened to take all this in my stride. However for the not so young wannabes with a good vocation after a tertiary education and young family, I would advise caution. You may be inflicting upon your family and yourself quite a bit of pain should your dream airline career sputters and lurches midway. Unless you have an overwhelming passion for airline flying or other really compelling reasons, be happy with what you have and fly privately for fun and leisure.

[Avi8tor]

Truly a sad thread this. We all love what we do, but as the late great Sir John Geilgud said "I have a large country house, and it doesn't run on chocolate buttons".

I was lucky, got into an airline when I was in my mid 20's and the truly Sh:mad:t money was enough. Now near the top end of the food chain life is good.

I think we need to be asking ourselves would a B738 captain be prepared to take a clerks salary in a law firm to change careers?

[sidtheesexist]

AR - is not the fact that you ask the question the answer in itself????

I would venture to suggest that since there is for you, so much at stake, unless you are 101% certain that it's the right path to follow, I wouldn't entertain the notion..............Just my opinion.......please disregard at your pleasure.

Whatever you decide to do,it will be the right thing for you. All the best.:ok:

[400drvr]

No! With the criminals that run the airline industry today, who make millions in and out of bankruptcy on the backs of the employee groups, I'd say stay well clear of the airline industry. :(

Only 8 to go.

[Superpilot]

There is no such thing as the perfect job. Anything you do for long enough you will begin to hate unless you are one of those that know the reality of it - that every job has it's ups and downs and you might as well stick to the one with the best view! :ok: Do you really think a "challenging" and varying job (with new things to learn everyday) is that much better???

I assure you it's not. In my game (IT) it's certainly never boring and always loads to do and learn with changing technologies and uncapped IT budgets! but there are downsides. I am constantly having to take my work home with me in order to make gains on the day ahead. As a result my quality of life is, well, **** to be honest. A lot of my spare time is spent worrying about problems at work, thinking about the next meeting etc.

I work on average 50 hours a week. I am having to deal with Project Managers who push the most unrealistic schedules in my face. I have to commute using the grot that is London's public transport.

I used to love challenges and fast paced environments but not any more. Almost everyone I know does not see IT as being in line with their long term goals. Simply because we all know we'd die of mental fatigue before we reach our 50s.

I'm in my mid twenties and earning a tad above you A.R (Contractor rates :E ) but that aint going to stop me from trying a flying career. It was my first choice in life and I can proudly say even if I begin to hate it after 5-10 years, I'll just consider it a fact of life.

[EjetSetter]

Hey man, hopefully I can shed lite.

I'v been on her before and like you I see a lot of people go I hate my job. I want to get out of flying. Whan Whan:{.

But here's my question, for all of the whiners how many of them got into it for the flight hours. For wanting to be in the air. No what attracted them was the ports of call and the pay. If you go into any job for cash and benefits, you will in the long run be dissapointed unless your the CEO banking on what you take away from the employees.

The simpliest answer is fly because you love it, its a hobby. Don't do it for the pay because in any job, any place you will find the shortcommings of money and not the long run of enjoyment.

So a question to everyone that answered in a negative way, why did you join? I sure as hell didn't for the pay.

(By the way, as a plea to all pilots student or otherwise don't do a SSTR please. If anything not being bonded for a free TR is a dissapointment.)

[dlav]

Oh 'eck, not making for some nice bed time reading chaps!

Anybody out there that DOES think its still worth it?

[brain fade]

Good for you for asking the question- a real dilemma. Here is the answer.

If you really wanted to do it- you wouldn't have to ask.

The fact that you need to be reassured shows you don't want (never mind need) it enough.

Therefore, for heavens sake..........Don't!

My invoice will be in the post.;)

Best thing I ever did, btw. And despite the naysayers.......I love it.

[Caractacus]

I'm early 40, married with 2 young kids, work 4 days a week and earn around £65k (weekends off).

If I could get that lifestyle and salary I would return to flying tommorrow. It is not available - not even for the Masons! The reality is 800 + hours per year, less than 60 k, no family life and all the problems you read on Pprune.

If you really wanted to do it you would not have posted the question. I first poled an aeroplane as a twelve year old. Ten airlines later I wouldn't touch an the industry with the long end of a nuclear tipped bargepole.

Stick close you your family and go flying for fun. You will grow out of the itch to be an airline pilot.

[kingoftheslipstream]

AtomicRoster...
Well, you've asked the 'million pound' question. I have read the thread to this point and have been quite impressed with most of the answers - you have received some thoughtful replies.
I've been in the game for 25 years. Most of the time it has been an absolute gas. But I am turning 46 next month... we have a teenage child... my wife has worked all our married lives. We have done very well for ourselves, mostly because we came offshore in the late '80s. Otherwise we wouldn't be where we are today financially.
The game has changed radically... disposable income has decreased considerably since I started in the early 80s... hours per month are up. Fatigue management (as one other post put it) is a huge issue. I am fit, healthy and I have a good attitude but I am knackered all the time... I still miss birthdays/anniversaries/weddings/funerals and Xmas and Easter because of this darn job. Not all of 'em, but too many for a short life time...
I am roughly familiar with what your 65k Stirling gets you in the UK... you live on a nice professional salary... you sound nicely settled. I don't think it's worth it anymore I must say.
It's going to continue to get worse - this is where you're thoughtful question will pay off for you and your family - pensions have pretty much vanished. The status of the profession of pilot has decreased to abysmal in North America, it's not far behind in the rest of the world. In the words of Leonard Cohen (poet) pilots are: no longer the hero[es] of their own enterprise... The remuneration is no longer consistent with the responsibility.
Someone else posted that piloting is a "job for school leavers"... that is quite astute. (I'm one of 'em). I am aware that pilots are not the brightest intellectually. Perhaps this is part of our 'fall' from grace as a profession... The old post war pilot image of an ex-airforce officer and all its associations, or the aristocratic ne'er do well, or even the sensitive contemplative loner smitten with the romance of flying... all has given way to a new breed of pilot with a different set of character traits entirely... As bean counters and MBAs have begun to rule the industry, the pilot has become a small, dull tooth in the gears of commerce. We continue to play a huge role in the day to day operation of an airline, but we are not reaping a fair share of the reward. As the future unfolds, the type of person who is attracted to the lower salary and lifestyle sacrifices will continue to change the face of this profession, and unfortunately not for the better. The kind of person, man or woman, who is attracted to a self financed piloting career to earn 20k-40k Stirling or USD is not the same kind of person who was attracted to 80-100k...
So, as you ponder your future, don't just think about the equipment but think about the kind of people you want to work with as well. It makes a difference.
I got into the game because I am a romantic - I was smitten with the flying bug at about age 5 and I could never have done anything else and won't do anything else... I never had a choice. You seem to have one.
Good luck and safe flying.
k-o-t-s

[cabeza]

Stick were you are mate
Flying a 172 etc much more fun than a jet!

[stator vane]

knowing what i know now, only do it, if you think you will die without it!!!
but first, try to get some professional counselling from those who deal with heroin addicts!!!
because that is what i would compare it to.
haven't shot the stuff into my veins, and as for flying, i can't live without it, but it is killing me!!!!
it intoxicates and frustrates. it inspires and demoralizes. it puts wings and epaulettes on your uniform and turns around and kicks you in the teeth. it makes you feel successful and makes you feel a failure. it builds your confidence and brings you to shivers. it brings you into strong personal relationships and it turns you into a loner. it creates new interests yet kills your attention span. you look at the cessnas and are happy you're in your machine, but a 777 taxis by and a tear comes to your eyes. you look down at the earth and wish you were there. you look up into the sky and wish you were there. you rise above the clouds to see the moon, stars and sun on rainy days as the 6 month medicals record your gradual demise. the cabin crew make you feel like you're always 18; whilst in the lav the mirror reminds you that you're old enough to be their grandfather. you look out the window and see the glorious world slowly slip by but you can't touch it nor smell it. you look at the northern lights and are glad you are there whilst on the turnaround, you ask yourself where did you go wrong. all in all you slowly realize that for better or worse, you never know how much longer it will last.

[old,not bold]

From the first post.....

It seems to me that many many pilots are not happy with their lot

And some-one else has posted a remark that pprune is full of whingers.

I've been in the industry for nearly 40 years, some of them flying, sort of semi-commercially...

I've been associated with professional pilots, worked with them, written their Ops Manuals, organised their transport and accommodation, prepared and filed their flight plans , on and off for most of that time.

Never in the history of the world has a group of people doing the job they love (well 99% of them do), mostly for more pay than anyione else in the company gets, been so ready to moan about almost everything, pretty much continuously.

It's just a habit; don't take any notice unless and until they start actually getting other jobs instead of talking about doing that.

Stand-by for incoming...................

[Dani]

very true! And since pilots are complaining that it's boring and that they do nothing but looking out of the window - sounds like the perfect job for me! :ok:

I don't know any job in the world where you get a 100 grants (insert currency as required), do nothing, don't need your brain, get fed for free and only work about 15 days a month. Everyone else in the civilized world has to sacrify his Saturdays and/or every second evening to get that money.

Those people who don't like it never came for the flying. I still get chilled when I watch the sunset at 39 000ft. Altough I cannot smell it (how does a Northern Light smell???). I will be excited even after my second 10 000 hours.

If you can say that yourself, you are suited for the job.
Dani

[Ignition Override]

NotanotherHilton:
How would other Pprune pilots' perspectives change if all of them, in a one year period, had taken two or three pay cuts which total anywhere from 30-38 % of their salaries?

There is no doubt that 400Driver is in one of those groups.
Many airline executive groups are awarded about 350,000,000 US in free corporate stock, as a reward for screwing up their airlines and slicing about 35% from your salaries. :cool: The contracts often then return only about 3 % per year into your salary. Generous cost of living increases. :*

They insult us by telling the media that the Boards of Directors made the decision to award those huge chunks of stock .
The Boards apparently held a Walther PPK (5.56mm?) pistol to their heads and forced them to sign a document which forbids them to refuse the stock.

Just the latest in a nonstop stream of insults to our intelligence.
And by the way, that does NOT include changes in work rules and some mostly lost retirements for many of the older pilots (i.e. Delta and USAirways).

[flyboy1818]

The problem with potential Pilots at the moment is that they have a significanlty different image of what the industry and the job will be like when they start training to the actual realities. This in many ways means that an abundance of people go onto Professional Pilot training that should quite simply get a PPL and enjoy flying in their spare time. Since 9/11 we have probably seen the worst time for a rookie pilot ever, the combination of the Aviation industry being/recovering in/from recession, the dawn of the low cost business model, a massive increase in national wealth and a run of many years of cheap debt fuelled by low intrest rates has produced too many rookie Pilots, many of whom have gone into training on a 1940's pipe dream with little research of planning beyond initial training.

I know many hopefuls who are now doing training well into their fifties. Will they get jobs? Yes a few will, but the majority won't, why? Because every year an army of young people start expensive integrated training after finishing an expensive Aviation degree. These people are in the 21-25 age range and most of them will work for nothing because its all they know, they have never known anything else and risk loosing all otherwise. As a result the carnage is really out and T&C's for the newly appointed FO make bag throwing look a more attractive proposition as many have previously pointed out on this website.

For me I have always known this Industry as an Industry, not a profession. I started out at 17 working in a very low paid job for a ground handler, and over the years I have gained an Aviation degree, at the same time working and building upon my previous industrial experience. I now have a very well paid job for somebody of my age, but still I'm not a Pilot. I have however had my PPL for many years. I am in the same situation as you, I have a very nice job which pays well and gives me more days than just Saturday and Sunday off, the pay also allows me to do a significant amount of travelling and flying in my free time, I have great promotional prospects too! Rather than jump head first into loans and a year or so out of work, I'm going to use my spare days to do the training part time and at the same time keep myself out of debt and demise. My advice, do the same, no debt, no life change, take a little longer and do it part time.

Now for the big one, is it worth it? In my mind yes, but then I know this industry very well and I know what to expect, I know who to work for and who not to work for. Do some research beyond the flight schools, and see what you think of it. Some examples would be: Part time job at an Airport for a few months on weekends, speaking to newly qualified FO's at gatbash or BALPA conferences. So to summarise I think you should go for it, but only after proper research. I also think that you should keep your job in the process, don't loose your money and your mind! Maybe a part time job as a flying instructor could be a good first step, allowing you to build hours and rise above many of the younger lower houred rookies. Good Luck!

[Viola]

Stator Van, you are a poet.

That's one of the best descriptions of the flying addiction I have ever read.

[Atomic Rooster]

Well here goes for the second time - I just lost a post into the ether after a lengthy write ! How frustrating is that ?

Firstly - thanks for all the replies so far. Some very interesting posts. I can identify with pretty much everything that has been said (although some people seem to be under the impression that I am considering going into training to be a commercial pilot - not so, I already have fATPL with +600 hrs). The thread took a few days to get going and I was still ambivalent about the whole thing, however as the days have wore and more replies been forthcoming I am being drawn towards one direction.

Although this issue has been niggling me for some time it has been brought to the fore front by the forthcoming BALPA EOC, an event which in itself would mean sacrificing the first day of a planned weeks holiday in the UK (half-term). It has made me stop and ask; 'What is the point in going if I'm having second doubts? How can I look a chief pilot in the eye and say 'I really really want to work for your airline! (even though I may be based 100's of miles from my family on well less than half my normal pay working all hours god sends !). The fact is I don't feel I can. I have no doubt that I would really enjoy working in an airline, or moreover, the flying side of things, but I just feel that the politics and decaying T&C's would eventually get to me. Although my wife has been supportive and indeed her response to the BALPA EOC was 'Why don't you go along and give it a final shot - I mean you've put so much into it so far'. However, I feel that perhaps the reality of it all will be too harsh for all the family.

It is therefore with heavy heart and a slight tear in the eye that I feel I must draw a line under this whole airline thing. I genuinely feel I would have enjoyed many aspects of the job, but I feel I just can’t justify it anymore. Life at the moment is pretty sweet and although I have the pressures that most people have when bringing up kids, on the whole life is fairly stress free. I am sad to say, but money has been a factor in the decision-making, but by no means the only factor! (BTW Superpilot – I am a contractor too, the £65k is on the low end for me but it has been a long-term contract. I was actually offered a 3-month contract (with possible 2 yrs) in London a couple of months ago with a daily rate of £550 per day :eek: – and I turned it down cos it was in London!! Not sure I’ll do that next time ! :E Also a lot to be said for better the devil you know! Also, good luck to you should you go down the commercial route – you have your age on your side!)

I hope people continue to post on this thread. You never know, one day in the not too distant future, maybe, just maybe I’ll get ‘the call’ from an airline based on an old application long forgotten about and then I will have to decide, ‘do I walk the walk?’ :E

In the meantime I will continue to enjoy doing what I have aspired to do since a young lad – FLY !! :ok:

Thanks.
Atomic Rooster.

[Crosswind Limits]

You could always instruct part-time or do air taxi. There are options to keep your existing work/life and still get paid to fly.

Best of luck!

P.S. Whatever you do, try and keep your multi IR current.

[CaptKremin]

Good decision.

The daily difficulties faced in this job have grown to outlandish proportions. What was a fun career 30 years ago is now a severe test of personal endurance.

Battling through overcrowded airport terminals to get to work, hassles from ignorant security staff, petty stupid rules about personal luggage, over crowded ramps, runways and skies, falling salaries, contractual terms under constant attack, higher and higher demands on productivity, with aircraft that go on forever creating greater disruption and fatigue, constant checking and re-checking, Manuals that have quadrupled in size (which you are expected to be word perfect with), greater frequency of severe weather through climate change, increasing fuel costs, increasing pressure from bean counters to always take minimum fuel, pressure from ATC to do the impossible with your aircraft, and of course - terrorist threats.

Glad I'm near done.

[Bad Robot]

AR, you don't have to fly "AIRLINES" there are other forms of Aviation that are just as rewarding and as you say, you already have a Frozen ATPL. Perhaps you could look at Biz Jets, Survey flights, GA or other Aerial Work?

I actually got into the Airlines by default it wasn't my first choice that's for sure. I was quite happy doing Survey flying and other AW. Even got a commercial Seaplane Rating and that is also very rewarding flying.

Your Heart must really be in it. If you are in this game purely for money /life style, then unless you really fall on your feet then you are in for a great disappointment.

Good luck whatever you choice is.

BR.

[Desk-pilot]

Atomic Rooster, I hope that the foregoing views have been helpful but I feel that having been on both sides of the fence the flying is a no brainer!

I too worked in IT - for about ten years in fact - I enjoyed a salary of around £50 000 plus great benefits but I knew from a young age that I really wanted to fly. As a result I was completely depressed by my humdrum IT career and every Sunday night felt miserable about Monday morning. Of course for ten years I enjoyed the money and lifestyle, ran a TVR, took superb holidays (wife earned slightly smaller salary also in IT so household income pretty good) but in the end I realised that there's more to life than money and security.

I trained as a pilot, spent 18 months looking for a flying job while back in IT contracting on a day rate of £450 a day i.e. about £110 000 pa. This also coincided with us starting a family. Eventually I was offered a job flying turboprops for a leading regional airline - £24000 basic salary and I'm based 400 miles from home at the moment. Completely love the flying, the job has lived up to my expectations completely though the money and domestic life is ****. I miss my wife and little girl terribly.

Would I do it again? - you bet, I get up every morning for work and love it - but of course I am fairly new to it. I get plenty of hands on experience, the Captains are at this base at least are fantastic and there's no way I would even consider going back to my old job. Worth remembering too that in perhaps 2 years I will be eligible for command when the salary will be about on a par with the IT salary I earned after more than ten years as a permie in IT. Of course I have added £60k or so to the mortgage but that's only about £400 a month on a mortgage and when you think about it that's not exactly earth shattering once you're on a £50k ish salary (it's pretty bad at the moment though!)

I'd say a deciding factor for me was if I could return to the old job level fairly easily if it didn't all work out. It's a decision only you and your wife can make but I knew I loved flying better than anything else. There's a great line in one of the Star Trek movies where Spock says to Kirk 'Flying a starship is your first best destiny, anything else is a waste of material' - that's how I felt about flying airliners and I still do.

Is it your first best destiny?

Desk-pilot
PS Read 'What Should I do with My Life' by Po Bronson - one of the best books I have ever read and found it helpful.

[Norman2]

Indeed, if Pilots are bored by airline routine, then I have little sympathy. I would (and sometimes do) pay good money to have that view out of the window. Try staring at a PC screen all day under artificial light before finding a flying job boring!

[Say again s l o w l y]

The view is marvelous and some of the sights that you see are truly awesome, but there's more to a job than scenery and whilst for the PPL holders of the world flying is a hobby, but when you do it every day, it soon becomes a job. A job with a beautiful view admittedly, but a job none the less.

[Slasher]

Atomic R Id pretty much say what Don Coyote said on page 1. If you were in your early 20s Id say go for it. But in your 40s with 2 kids and allready in a well-paying job just get a PPL and a share in some nice aircraft.
Anyway airline flying changed from 1986 onwards and been progressivley getting worse.
- Every outfit re-invents its own wheel and we are constantly security'd and CRM'd out of existance
- SOPs now are the be-all and end-all with little room for flexability and efficient situational decision-making
- The dark clouds of the MPL (Makeshift Pilot Licence) are on the horizon with its predictable impact on safe flight
- For good money and low tax you need to go OS. Some places are acceptable while others are simpley cr@pholes
- The latest aircraft are so computerised and pasturised Id have more fun flogging a clapped-out Baron.

[Lord Lucan]

Ah Slasher, well put as usual.

However, as regards the advice to the 20 year old, I don't think I would also say Go for It!

As you say, conditions have been getting worse for years. Also, there is little prospect of the daily "security" farce ever going away.

I would also think there is a fair prospect of fully automatic airliners within the working lifetime of a 20 year old. Possibly even pilotless or perhaps "monitored" by a "pilot". Not much of a prospect.

[ostendo mihi via]

This has so far been arguably the most insightful and balanced debate I have read on these forums. I too am an engineer. I earn a respectable salary for my age, I have a sensitive and loving fiance and a detached home in a rural area complete with dogs and a nice view.
All of these things are blessings and I am grateful for them.
However, my day typically begins with a 5.30am start, followed by a two hour drive to work. I then spend many hours sat at a desk staring at drawings and a computer screen. I take telephone calls all day long from people intent on making their problems become MY problem.
I work in an environment where the concept of dynamic responsible leadership is totally alien and in fact I find, I regularly have to think twice before speaking in case my words could used against me later. The work is generally dull and repetitive and I feel like a traitor to my morals more often than I would like to admit. Any of this sound familiar??
My fear is that, whilst I read about the many frustrations of Pilots and compare that to my current world, we are actually experiencing the result of societies that place the pursuit of wealth above all else. This does not seem to be isolated to the aviation industry.
Before I sound like a marxist (I don't believe that works at all), I have reached some conclusions that work for me. I have done a great deal of research into a flying career. Most notably, whilst preparing for future selection tests, I looked into personality types in great depth. When considering my true talents and strengths and after asking myself some tough questions, I had to conclude the goal I had set myself was some way off. I think it is vital that we are prepared to be totally honest with ourselves when choosing what we wish to do with the rest of our lives. I personally plan, to move to a sunny climate and make a future as an instructor. I feel it requires the skills I consider to be personal strengths and whilst I know I will never earn 'big dollar' the personal rewards far outweigh that for me.
It is saddening to see how many of us are frustrated with the cards we have been dealt but encouraging to see so many prepared to work so hard to change what they are not happy with. I still live in hope that we will one day live in a world where people matter more than bank accounts but theres probably no cure for the human condition.
I genuinely hope that all the contributors to this thread find what they are searching for.

[Slasher]

I would also think there is a fair prospect of fully automatic airliners within the working lifetime of a 20 year old. Possibly even pilotless or perhaps "monitored" by a "pilot". Not much of a prospect.

L.L. that reminds me of a Flight Inter issue a year ago
with a article concerning A320 electric problems (loss of
CRTs and Ess bus transfer to bus 2 I think). On the very
next page it had a burst on pilotless-airliner research and
pic of an A321 with no cockpit! :bored:

[PENKO]

AR, you have taken a decision only you can take.


To some of the disillusioned:

Are you really telling me the job has turned sour because someone at security might ask you to take of your shoes?

Are you really telling me you needed a degree 20 years ago to become a pilot?

Are you really telling me that 20 years ago you had no idea that you might get bored by repeating the same task over and over again?



This thread has MIDLIFE CRISIS written all over it! :)

[abra]

Surely,if you have to ask others that question,it probably isn't worth it for you.There seem to be two main types of pilot.There are those who eat sleep and live it(although many are reticent at expressing their keeness)and others who just see it as a job and can't wait for their pension and the golf corse.The training/money hurdle has probably not disuaded the eat/sleep/live types from from pushing on and trying to get into the industry.It might have disuaded the jobbies.
I'm a keenie..but I still moan about things.I couldn't imagine doing anything else.
Just remember,you are only here once.It is no good lying on your death bed saying..I wish I'd been a pilot.

[six-sixty]

Just my personal take on it all with my own unique set of circumstances. I'm best part of a year into my first job now flying regional TP's. I'll be 40 next year, and left a job which though paying me handsomely was seriously depleting my vitality and making me miserable. I always used to be happy and outgoing but had become rather jaded and withdrawn in recent years. I flew as a hobby, but the itch never went away. I have a wife, but had no children at the time, and I have seriously disrupted her life in my pursuit of this, but I think she saw it was necessary for my sanity.
Every day since, no matter what (early starts, disruption, security hassle, rubbish food, poor facilities, all the usual moans management, blah blah etc etc) I find I've never felt so alive, and I look forward to going to work like a child anticipates going on a birthday outing. Every single day. I have NEVER looked forward to going to work before! Every day is a challenge and I'll learn something new about the aircraft itself, handling it, the weather, routings, you name it. I love mixing with different captains & cabin crew each day, and of course, the views can take your breath away.
When the old hands moan about the politics, (mis)management, penny-pinching, slow erosion of terms etc, I obviously can see it happening but it's like water off a duck's back to me. Compared to the City, my previous life, characters like Micky O'Leary resemble big cuddly fluffy teddys. There's nothing going on here which hasn't been happening in other industries for years. It's capitalism, and in many ways it's bad but on the other hand it provided me with the springboard to this in the first place. The only difference I see is when times are good, people in the City tend to vote with their feet more and thus drive back up the terms/money. I don't see that so much in aviation - maybe pilots enjoy moaning more?
Anyway just my own unique viewpoint, from my own unique set of circumstances. By the way, I'd probably be classed as one of the anorak types (I think "aeroplane" might have been the first word I ever spoke) and this obviously makes everything that much less of an effort!