PVRs

[Almost_done]

After reading many a thread, especially this one (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289873)on how I'm upset about this etc...

Who has put their money where their mouth is and PVR'd?

I have.

[Wyler]

I did. :ok::D:ok:

[justone26]

I have:ok:

[Al-Berr]

I'm gonna.........soon:suspect:

[MadAxeMan]

I didn't, but I did take my 16/38 option, same effect, different process.

[JagRigger]

I too declined my offer of further service beyond the 22 point.

[L1A2 discharged]

NGR - 18 months, my timetable.

:ok:

[Safety_Helmut]

Yep, 18 months notice, as L1A2.

S_H

[justone26]

AIDU you are missing the point. The RAF is losing many experienced people when it is possibly most overstressed it has been in the last 50 years. You cannot recruit experience. :ugh:

[cornish-stormrider]

I did, four years ago. My predictions of the future for the airforce, and me in it did not bode well. It even goes to show how little they care when PSF could not even arrange the "what would it take to keep you in" chat with the wobbly.

The first he knew of it was signing my leaving chit..........

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Cornish,

Perhaps they did organise it and he thought good riddance.........:E

[Al R]

AIDU said:

I understand and agree that you cannot recruit experience, but there are people still joining and there always will be. You make it sound like you are getting one up on the RAF by PVR'ing, they don't care and that is a shame. You will be forgotten as soon as your mug disappears from the mug board in the crew room. I understand that at this point in your personal circumstances it makes sense for you to leave, how you choose to leave is your choice. I bet you wouldn't leave if you didn't have a job to go to. I guess we will get the usual doom mongers saying I am wrong but unless it suits your circumstances in your life at this point people won't leave. How many are hanging on because of boarding school allowance etc. As for Al berr "I'm gonna soon" well you haven't and your statement is pointless.


Your first couple of lines are contradictory, and I'm sure there is more than a little pique and hurt rejection in your tone. Yes, of course there are always still folk joining up, but erm.. yup, they don't have experience!!

I was like you once, ya boo to those who want to leave and we won't miss you when you're gone anyway etc etc. But now, with the benefit of hindsight and broader experience, I can see that I was blinkered and myopic. Rather than spurn those who have the audacity to say they want to leave, so that their pessimism doesn't cause a ripple of disscord through those who are staying (for whatever reason), the question 'why do they want to leave?' should be asked. I bet too, that their loss IS felt, although we never had fots on our crewroom walls, so I couldn't possibly comment about that.

I bet that the reasons are based not on personal hardship, but declining job satisfaction. I seem to recall, the first wave of redundancies saw lots of switched on guys wanting to leave, because they saw the way things were going, and it was no longer the RAF that they joined. I was obviously the exception to that rule, because I applied anyway, and was turned down. Receiving the letter in my icy sh#thole in NW Bosnia really spurred me on though, I don't mind telling you.

Rather than treat them like pariahs, if a tiny amount of work was done to retain a fraction of this skills loss, the benefits would be huge.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Al old chap,

I think it is you who is a bit confused as you chastise AIDU with

"Your first couple of lines are contradictory, and I'm sure there is more than a little pique and hurt rejection in your tone. Yes, of course there are always still folk joining up, but erm.. yup, they don't have experience!!"

Where as AIDU opens with

" I understand and agree that you cannot recruit experience" not sure where the confusion is there :rolleyes:

As for your popular misconception that people are ACTUALLY missed, well sorry but after over 30 years watching folk come and go I think you are wrong. On a personal level I often think of the characters I have had the pleasure of working with but on a professional note I live in the NOW and work with what I have in front of me.

Now as you are a civilian do you REALLY believe that anyone ACTUALLY misses you......................be honest with yourself:=...........or is it that that grates most with you :rolleyes:

[shawtarce]

I started the thread mentioned above, to see if there are people who felt the same way as I do. It would appear that there are.

I know airships monitor this forum, and until the thread fell into the usual barrage of personal bickering, there were some really good ideas brought forward, ideas that wouldn't cost a great deal, and may retain a few of us for a few more years.
It may have been naive of me, but I was hoping that some of those ideas could have been looked at, by those dealing with the retention problem.

I haven't PVR'd yet and I won't, as I have only a couple of years left, but I'm counting the days.

I would love to see something happen that would bring back the "Esprit de corps" that was part of RAF/Military life until recent times, and maybe if something happened sooner rather than later, it may change the minds of at least a few of us.

Maybe.......

[Al-Berr]

AIDU,

My statement is not pointless. I have made my mind up to leave and will do when it suits me and makes the best economic sense. This just happens to be 18 months from now.

Al R

Well said!
:D

[Al R]

Dear Seldom for for Purpose,

You forgot the bit by AIDU which said..

"I understand and agree that you cannot recruit experience.."

.. and which would have made my point a little clearer for you. ;)

I'm sure that you do work with the 'Now', but you rather shot yourself in the foot when you said you missed people prior to typing that. Of course we work with what we've got.. we have no choice. The point being made is that what we've got isn't a patch on what it should/could be.

I imagine that people wouldn't miss me :E, but as an NBC Instructor, a First Aid Instructor, a Jungle Warfare Instructor, a Arctic Warfare advisor, a Countersurveillance instructor, a Conduct after Capture Instructor, a weapons Instructor ad nauseum ad nauseum, I imagine Halton will be just chokka with the likes of me and my experience, all ready and able to fill my boots at the drop of a hat.

In his final para, Shawtarce hits the nail on the head.

[sarmonkey]

I took my 38/16 point as a result of exasperation with the system and wanting to take control of my own destiny. Once I'd made that decision, you start to see people in a different light - you realise just how many of the AIDUs of this world, with all their 'I love it, me' talk, are just plain scared to leave.

Mind you, if he's aircrew at Northolt, the leaving rate there means he'll be Stn Cdr by the end of next week.

[cornish-stormrider]

Seldom,
Either way I'm better now than when I was in!!!

[Al R]

.. I also think its worth reminding ourselves, how stuffed we'd be without Reservists. As a principle, that can't be right.

[tablet_eraser]

My PVR was confirmed last week. Less than a year left for me.

[Cargone]

Well I did several years ago & haven't regretted it one bit. More money, better prospects, appreciation in the workplace, more control over personal life/housing etc. The list is endless.

I miss a few of the guys I used to work with, but it was definately a myth that the Forces is the only place to enjoy banter & camaraderie. Myadvice to anyone unhappy...get out as soon as you can.:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Cornish,

Apologies only me being rude :E

Al,

Sorry but I have gone back and looked and looked again at your posts and you still have me confused :confused:

I am full of admiration for those who have simply had enough and made the very brave decision to leave with all the potential uncertainty that that entails, but for myself the introduction of PA Spine and the New Pension scheme mean financially I would be mad to go now as instead of needing a job when I leave I can now look forward to very very happy and prosperous retirement, not long to go :ok:

Where I believe I differ from some who appear to be struggling to let go and have posted in here is that I am fully aware that the day I do leave I will be leaving some good friends behind but, and this is the main point I am trying to make the system will not give a toss whether I turn left or right outside the main gate.

I could, if I felt the need to big myself up trot out a whole host of qual's etc that I have attained in what will eventually god willing be almost 39 years of service life but why? I am not daft enough to believe that as I go the system will not find a whole bunch of good people ready and prepared to step up and take over and in fact I would be bitterly disappointed with my own contribution if I felt I had not been party to putting in place the building blocks to keep the military machine on track.

What I most look forward to when I leave is the ability to reflect but let completely go, we will travel and do things we always dreamed of but most importantly and having let go I will bet my pension I will feel the need to rant and rave in here on subjects I will often know very little about as often as Beagle gets "wood" :ok:

[Al R]

Ok Seldom, sorry if I missunderstood you. :)

[El_Presidente]

I did, papers in Mar 06, out Mar 07...

And Civvy St is not the big scary place everyone thinks it is...

Just opening the Rioja now...

:}

[sarmonkey]

AIDU - when did I mention anything about you enjoying your job? What a strange retort. I merely suggested that the people who shout the loudest about staying are the ones most terrified of leaving. Of course people would be staying in if there was no jobs out there - those years at the London School of Economics weren't wasted were they? Your mantra of 'if you don't like it, leave' is true. And the bouyant market combined with a morally bankrupt war, a spineless leadership and ever-reducing benefits means lots of us are.

The scariest thing I found as I navigated the mire of licences is that for every bitter ex-forces guy going through the training establishment I frequented, there was a sharp, young lad/ladette who could have walked into Cranwell, but didn't fancy being in today's RAF and fighting the conflicts we face (for moral reasons, not moral fibre). People leaving+people not joining=more overstretch.

And if that happens they'd have to pull you away from being Stn Cdr RAF Northolt and send you to all sorts of nasty places.....

[sarmonkey]

No, you didn't go to LSE. Perhaps it was Cambridge, studying irony.

Scared to stay in and make a difference? Clutching at straws a bit there, aren't we?

Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind - just pointing out that your 'just leave' speech is redundant because we are. Eventually, when the school allowance gets canned and you're on your fourth tour of whatever fly-blown oil-producing country we annex next, you might too. Good luck whichever way.

[Al R]

Sorry AIDU, I am aware of why 'we' practice the ac on soft ball surfaces thanks very much (boy, you should have seen them bounce on Op Bushell), and I left because I had to. I was injured and yes, I do miss it but being an official bona fide war pensioner, I've done my bit and reserve the right to post crap and tell you how I see it.. if thats ok with you of course..

I don't really have time for Neighbours I'm afraid, and was given a steer here by someone with whom I once worked and yes, it takes up far too much of my time! I don't have much time to wile away the hours either. I am the commercial director of a chemicals laboratory, having launched and published my own car magazine (.. you want fear? Try doing that) with 2 others and which I sold off my directors interest in, earlier this year. I still see it with pride in Tesco and Smiths and I have on my office wall at home, a cheesy A1 mounted enlargement of me on the front cover, ragging the arse of something rather tasty and writing about it (thank god for patient subbies.. :E). Yup, all that in just 5 years in civvy street.

I did it because I could hack the change, I wasn't afraid of risk and hard work and as a result I've seen success in my working life from both sides of the fence.. what about you? :)

[It's Not Working]

Some time when you’re feeling important.
Sometime when your ego’s in bloom.
Sometime when you take it for granted
you’re the best qualified man in the room.
Sometime when you think that your leaving
will leave an unfillable hole.
Just follow these simple instructions
and see how they humble your soul.

Take a bucket and fill it with water.
Put your hands in it, up to your wrists.
Take them out and the hole that remains
Is a measure of how you’ll be missed.
You may stir all you like as you enter.
You may splash up the water galore.
But stop! And you’ll find in a minute
it looks just the same as before.

The moral of this is quite simple.
You must do the best that you can.
Be proud of yourself but remember,
there is no ‘Indispensible Man.’



O’dark-30 in 73/74 I had reason to visit the dump at Scampton and found the above on the entry picket-post wall, I’ve carried it with me through thick and thin ever since. Been wanting to share it with somebody for a while and this thread seems as good a place to do it as anywhere.

Rgds

[Al R]

AIDU,

With regard to my second para, the change that I'm referring to is my choice of civvy career which is possibly as far removed from TG8 as you can imagine. Deadlines for international magazines replaced the buzz and demands that I had enjoyed in uniform. The hard work I am referring to, is handling the transition from range tea to latte and starting at the bottom again, to learn the ropes. It also helped that the commercial director of Max Power magazine at the time, had a Sqn Ldr brother serving in the Regt, so I had a lucky break. They all count. It also helped that I could sit through any bull**** meeting in a hotel or boardroom and remind myself that I could have been listening to one similar under a rain lashed poncho.

My time in the mob came to an abrupt end, but it was only the means to the end. When I was younger, I always thought that my whole life was going to be the Regt. It wasn't. The RAF as an organisation won't miss you, simply because it doesn't learn from its mistakes. Skill and experience are missed every time a job takes 5% longer to achieve than what it might have taken, if you were still there, but its not in the military mindset to recognise it.

We (and I'll hijack the prerogative if you don't mind) are slaves to a system, we take some measure of Pavlovian perverse pleasure at of being downtrodden and working our butts off in exchange from a pat on the back from Wingco because we're tribal, we're hierarchal and because we draw strength from common adversity. And rightly so, we're the ruddy military! But if some Wg Cmdr once told you that you were a 'can do' kinda guy, thats a form of brainwashing, but you don't realise it. In a FTSE 100 company telling the troops they're 'can do' is tantamount to calling them underfunded. If you're underfunded in the 'real' world, you lose the contract ~ just look at the management speeches and memos to workers at Rover in the months before the rug was pulled from under their feet.. they're almost Churchillian "We will fight them in the showrooms..").

Sure, we're all rightly proud of our work ethic and what we can achieve when we need to be flexible and when our backs are to the wall. But whatever you do, don't confuse 'can do' and being flushed with success at an F6000 kudos, with the simple economic fact that you have to be, because Brown has slashed the Defence Budget yet again in order to subsidise the Polish shipyards or roadbuilding in the other emerging Baltic States. And yes, the water level in the bucket gets filled up again, eventually, but lets not confuse modesty with having a sense of our own worth. How often have we whinged about being gapped or coping with someone detached?

My point about the PVR situation was simple. Its asinine to suggest to those who are leaving that they won't be missed.. because they will. They might not be missed by the good and the great here, but they'll sure as hell be missed by SAC Bloggs on the Hanger floor who has to do guard training that little more often, and by the section who loses SAC Bloggs that little more often. Your opinion is subjective, mine less so.. if someone wants to PVR, the RAF will let him/her go because there is no system in place to register, measure and react to discord or discontent apart from the PVR register. The attitude is almost like a lover being spurned (".. well, if thats your atitude, we don't want you anyway.. you can go and be (spits).. a civvy!!").

I bet you there will be systems in place to mitigate PVR, but not Applications to PVR. Losing infanteers to private security companies or losing aircrew to BA, all trained at public expense and not doing anything worthwhile about it? Sorry, thats probably negligence and I would love to see a report by any public accounts committee about it. Accepting manpower wastage and loss of experience for what it invariably is.. (ie; sloppy management) and not an excuse to wrap ourselves in the mindset of those who came up with the name 'Sinn Fein', would be a start. Instead of wasting a day doing EO and all that time consuming bollocks, how many stations recognise the fact that people are hacked off and offer 1 day get togethers for people considering PVR and seeing what can be done to change their minds?

Or does the CO still wear new clothes?

[Al R]

I didn't tell you because a) its none of your business and b) err.. its none of your business ;) . There are a few people here though, who know the craic.

Time off? I should be so lucky!

All the best.

[L J R]

.....Back to the original question, err err... what was it again? - memory going.



ahh yes


I left.

[JamesA]

I did. No regrets.


Seldom fit,
May I offer you a word of advice based on my personal experience. Everybody else is welcome to take note.

Do not wait for retirement to do all those things you and Mrs S. have spoken of and planned. If you have the cash - Do it now. Live every day to the full.
Reason - one of you might not make it. You then have a very empty world of wishes.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

James thanks for the advice but rest assured we are already doing as much as we can however the wonga that comes at 55 enables us both to fully retire, clear all our debts and travel the world.............then move into the sunshine of the med for the rest of our days :ok:

[danieloakworth]

I left at my 38 (4 years ago). Leaving was an interesting time, with plenty of conflicting emotions. I approached 38 with an open mind as to whether to stay or go. PMA soon changed that, and even phoned me at home and advised me to leave (they then promoted me during resettlement and wondered why I didn't change my mind).

I was determined not to be bitter on leaving, I've always found it sad that people feel they have to slate the service to justify going. Four years on and it was a great decision, although I still find it strange the way PMA conducted themselves. If I was going to have one serious moan, it was that I was never asked why I was leaving.

Joining the RAF was the best decision I ever made, leaving was a close second.

[L J R]

Daniel, My leaving experience (another AF) and feeling was almost identical. except the home phone calls.

[danieloakworth]

The home phone calls turned out to be emotional blackmail. Someone had told PMA that I was bluffing. They were trying to panic me into staying.

[snapper41]

Someone had told PMA that I had no intention of leaving so they thought phoning me at home telling me to leave would panic me into staying.
Well, that's confused me - anyone else??:confused:

[trap one]

I did......................
Letter I put in for reasons of PVR had to be seen by OC Admin, before my PVR was granted, not sure why.

[El_Presidente]

Daniel, LJR...Ditto.

I was quite suprised that an organisation which invests so heavily in training personnel to a very high standard pays very little attention towards discovering the reasons why its personnel choose to leave before their pension/option point.

I too was blackmailed with the promotion line, the Deskie assuming it was why I was rocking the boat...

:E

[Al R]

"If you're not with us, you must be against us.". :rolleyes:

[RileyDove]

I left eleven years ago when the free PVR's were all the rage ! Not going to go on about whether it's better or worse on the outside. What does worry me is the RAF seems to be shedding it's best men and keeping it's head in the sand. Without a doubt there has been a large erosion in the preceived 'way of life' - I would also suggest that apart from the numbers of people PVR-ing - there are many now with the 'gearstick' decidedly in neutral waiting for the '55' or what ever chance they have to jump ships - a sad state to be in!

[blogger]

It's not just PVR's it is also 18 month notice to quit, lots of us are this way to go. After all I think almost all trades are now 12 months PVR notice.

This ensures that you get a good amount of time to do resettlement courses which seem to be at the mo well booked in advance. I wonder why?

60% of my section are on 18 months notice to go. All less than 5 months now. Terminal leave, Stored leave, Resettlement leave, Days to do, thank god.

I quit a TOS 30 years going 5 years early. The Gulf last trip did my head in....

[Magp1e]

I PVR'd 4 years ago. I left a RAF totally different from the one I'd joined. In the early days we "worked hard, played hard", with the savage reduction in our numbers, it became "work hard, er, work hard". There was no fat left in the system to allow people the time off to experience the aspects of service life ( sport tours, expeds, education courses). We were badly paid but didn't seem to care because the benefits of service life, the Esprit de Corp; opportunities to develop yourself made up for it.

I'm not saying the RAF of today is better or worse, just different. If I was joining today, I'd accept the loss of " service life benefits" but they'd have to pay me a heck of alot more money. More and more they're introducing civilian practices. EWT, JPA, PAYD, talk of removing MQ's....Well let them give you civilian equivalent wages. That would cheer up aircrew and Air Traffickers!..maybe not map makers tho':E

[SVK]

Talking about leaving the service, PVR or otherwise, an old and bold once told me:

"You're going to become a Civilian one way or another - best its on your own terms!"

Haven't forgotten that....