717s for Sunnies & Eastern?

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Been reading about this here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289157&page=2
but I think it deserves a thread of its own.

It would make sense with Tiger and the VB jungle jet not far away, but then again QLink management have always said they (EA & SS) will never operate jets. And of course according to QF management they are only turboprop drivers and jets are too fast for them to handle. More Q400s are supposedly the preference but they can't get their hands on any at the moment.

Meanwhile, back at the CB base, EA are supposedly covering heaps of the SS flights SY-CB due to lack of SS crew and/or aircraft breakdowns. With 2 Eastern checkies currently undergoing Q400 training, Sunnies' hold on the CB base is looking a little shaky.

[slice]

I don't think Sunnies really want to hold on to the base anyway with Captains bidding back to the 300 in Brisbane as soon as they have the seniority. Look how far down the seniority list the latest 400 command in Canberra is. Apparently some announcement due for Qantaslink this month - don't hold your breath though. However with various threats now getting close and uncertainty about the 717 wetlease arrangement Qantas is going to have to do something.

[RENURPP]

Whislt I wish all those guys the best of luck, it high lights the disgusting attitude pilots have towards each other. :yuk:

Whilst I don't puch much faith in this rumor. probably started with talk of 717's in Canberra being immanent, no mention of the operator. Maybe some lines painted on the ground and some pilots with stars in their eyes?
On one hand we have NJS pilots considering industrial action to maintain their CURRENT conditions, then you hear of another bunch of pilots out to steel their jobs from under them and clapping their hands at the prospect.:D:D.
Up until the current dispute that is going on NJS were going to be operating the 717's on the east coast.
3 more jets are to be introduced in October in Perth Cairns and darwin followed by probably 3 more in canberra. Rumor and only rumor has it that the search is on for more 717's internationally.
Just sit back and consider this.
There are plenty of jobs available at present and conditions are only improving.
If management wins this fight, then you can be sure it will resonate through the industry, at least the likes of SS and EAA. It would demonstrate that this style of management can screw pilots even in BOOM times. Just wait for the down times.
I hope the pilots consider what happened in that year. Pilots taking pilots jobs?:confused:

[slice]

Renurpp - I don't quite follow your logic about 'stealing' jobs. At this point in time none of the decisions made made by Qantas management about who flies what and where get any input from rank and file pilots. NJS seem to be in strife in more ways than one.

[bushy]

What the airlines helped to create in GA was an oversupply of pilots who cut one another's throats, and virtually destroyed the industry. This has now come back to bite the airline pilots and the airlines on the bum.

[swab]

Carve 'im up slice!:}

[RENURPP]

My point is, NJS up untill now has the contract for the 717. it goes for another 5 yrs.
The day after there is talk of industrial disharmony, some one from EAA or SS decide it is a great idea to suggest that they may get the 717's.
well can I suggest that it would be better for us (pilots) to support each rather than start cheering and hoping for the NJS pilots to lose so EAA or SS can fly a JET. How petty.
Apart from which i suspect it would more likely be jetstar that provided the AOC and crew than either of the other two mentioned companies.
NJS are not necessarily in strife. that is a management decision. The problems could be solved almost over night.

Post by Vigi one
They are listening, QLink management that is. 737's to the westcoast some 717's to the east coast to be crewed by EAA & SSA, 400's and some 300's to stay 200's/100's to go. This will be to combat the E-Jets and Tiger as well retain some regional pilots. and on it goes from there,

[ACMS]

Correct me if I'm wrong but................10 years or so ago National Jet was given the BAE146 flying in BNE by Qantas instead of giving jets to Sunnies. In my humble opinion it was Sunnies flying in the first place. So it wouldn't be taking anything from NJS they shouldn't never have received.

Bit like the Pornstar Pilot's bitching about Qf Pilot's coming across and taking "their commands". It was QF flying in the first place.

God some people have short memories.:=

[RENURPP]

Well ACME you are correct, lets all go back to pre 1989 shall we.:confused:
a hell of a lot of NJS guys and girls would probably love their jobs back with ANSETT/TAA and the like that others took.
It was QF flying in the first place
I believe it was TAA flying in the first place!:confused:
Like a bunch of little school girls fighting over a barby doll.:(
God some people have short memories :=

[TROJAN764]

Sue R,
My guess is that CRJ700/900s would be more likely (maybe through a trade off of existing Q400 options) - if anything happens at all! If there is anyone left to fly them!

[How's it Hanging]

If there is additional 717's to operate on the east coast, how are EAA and SSA taking others jobs. It may mean no expansion for NJS, but how would it be taking NJS jobs. It would probably mean less Dashes, so the EAA and SSA crew would only be keeping their flying!
Ps I'll believe it when I see it!!

[RENURPP]

If we are only talking additional I agree 100%. good luck.
If Vigi one is suggesting that due to the IR hassles at NJS they are losing aircraft and EAA SS will get them and thinks thats good news my opinion is he is an rsole.
If he's not saying that, why mention it on a thread about NJS and industrial action? http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=289157&page=2

[Doctor Smith]

Hmmmm. Let me see. didn't NJS pilots undercut themselves by agreeing to fund their own endorsements on the 717? You should be worried about the devil within, blokes :ugh:
Eastern pilots know nothing about this. Infact they're kept in the dark more than anyone else in the group. Just look at the propaganda magazine aka "regional spirit". It's all about QLD QLD QLD. oi oi oi!
As Trojan writes, there won't be anyone left at Eastern's to fly em. Even many of their senior checkies are looking for OUT. Talk about fast track commands for cadets!:8 Theyll be carryin' the can in 6 months :}
But Nero fiddles on his Hog tour in the states while Eastern's burns.

See youse!:}:}:yuk:

[Kransky]

Wind up alert!

Been reading about this here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=289157&page=2
but I think it deserves a thread of its own.

Too much time on your hands, Sue.

This little rumour had its origins in the middle of last year. A rep from NJS 717 rang a mate in the JPC to ask if JQ was a threat to their 717 pay negotiations. Short answer was JQ had everything in place to put the 717 back into JQ service within a week, but JQ were plain not interested.

NJS rep and JPC rep then have a yarn, as pilots do, and one says to the other "the 717 would be the perfect aeroplane for the QF group to put up against VB jungle jets." More yakity yak, friendly good bye.

The conversation is repeated amongst some colleagues at a couple of AFAP events and the EAA and SSA guys nod in agreement. The 717 would give the jungle jet a run for its money on the east coast.

A year and a bit later, Sue Ridgepipe hears the same hangar talk as it goes round the rumour circuit for the fifth time. Like a goldfish, the rumour doesn't have any memory of where it came from.

The Canberra base bit was invented by a NJS pilot in Cairns, who openly admits he made it up!!!

If anyone in the QF group is going to become the second 717 operator, why on earth would QF give it to EAA or SSA? Nothing wrong with you guys, but even when NJS boys and girls get their Certified Agreement, they will STILL be cheaper than you guys ever would!!

Tell 'em they're dreaming.

[The Pirate]

Yes Folks the 717s are returning to Jetstar! One is already being painted up in the Orange Star in Newcastle as we speak ...............:ooh:

[ITCZ]

hehe, true Pirate!

Sue, nice rumour, but what about the spares and rotables? Just about the whole lot are now in a hangar in Adelaide, Perth, Cairns and Darwin.

What about the Alteon training slots? No courses booked for EAA or SSA.

I'll tell you what is for real, NJS pilots are fighting on several fronts to get their conditions improved. NJS is under fire but its pushing back. Hardly surprising that an old rumour has been resurrected, given some new spin and thrown out there to see if it scares a few NJS pilots.

[ACMS]

RENURPP: I was talking about Pornstars international ops ya dope. That flying was NEVER TAA's. It was Qantas Pilot's bread and butter routes that GD gave to Pornstar to screw everyone, and you know it. So what the hell do the Pornstar Pilot's smoke to get all bent out of shape when Qf Pilot's take positions in Pornstar out of "seniority". You must be joking?:=
Actually I was involved in 89 bud and I don't approve of any of my non-scab mates taking other peoples jobs, as happened in a few situations.
All I said was that the Qantas bosses at the time should have given the jobs to their own Qantas group Pilot's instead of contracting them out to a cheap low cost operator, NJS. In my opinion it was flying that Sunnies should have done.
So if they get it back now,,,,,,then good. Stuff the NJS Pilot's that jumped at the chance to take another Pilot's job.
ok

[RENURPP]

ACME fair enough,
opinions are like arsoles and you know the rest..............:ooh:

[aulglarse]

ACMS, the MOU was pretty much written for and endorsed by Qantas pilots .
Naturally an amendment was made after it revealed JQ crew were being shafted as it wasn't a two-way street after all.

How many Jq pilots jumped at the chance to crossover???? A big fat zero.

[Capn Bloggs]

ACMS you said,
Correct me if I'm wrong but................10 years or so ago National Jet was given the BAE146 flying in BNE by Qantas instead of giving jets to Sunnies. In my humble opinion it was Sunnies flying in the first place.

If you are referring to the introduction of the 146 to QLD by Australian Airlines in 1991, NJS took over Australian Airlines 737 flying that was ridiculously over-priced by the disgusting pay scales that the 737 pilots were on at the time as a result of you-know-what. Sunnies was was still flying boxcars then and was hardly in a position to take on a 3-jet fleet. Is it you with the short memory?

Secondly, criticism of the NJS pilots undercutting JQ to get the 717 is a bit below the belt given that from what I read on this esteemed site last year QF played off EAA and Sunstate for the -400. Good on EAA pilots for saying NO. Sunstate pilots are hardly in a position to imply that the NJS pilots should bugger off the 717 after undercutting their fellow QLink brethren in SYD.

As for two separate companies operating the 717 (NJS and another), it ain't gonna happen. Get over it. As soon as the guard changes at ADL, NJS will be firing on all fours and be the pride of the aviation industry.

Even if our bosses are dollar-driven #$%^&s, let's not be at our own throats.

[cunninglinguist]

So eastern and sunny pilots going to shell out for their own endorsements? or QF just going to happily fork out millions ( a la Southern ) to put the easterners into jets ??

Slightly off thread ( but still on the under cutting bit ) I find it almost hilarious QF short haul have just voted in agreement to pay new captains less, and its virtually slipped under the radar :rolleyes:
Thats not how we did it in Ansett :{:{

[727ace]

the operator will be NJS and will obtain more aircraft on behalf of QF which are currently being sourced by QF to suppliment the current fleet for east coast operation next year with more changes at Bull**** Castle imminent NJS will rise from the ashes once more but with a fleet of 717's:eek:

Ejets and tiger are a bigger danger than QF/Jstar have envisaged the same as Tolls rise in the Freight department which AAE laughed at only 1 year ago:=

[Doctor Smith]

And besides ace, there won't be anyone with substantive experience left at easterns to fly a jet :E they're all going to other operators because theyre sick of being bull****ted to by MFO and his cronies from the AFAP. They think people will stay for a -Q400 with it's 'jet-like' speeds. Let MFO save the CB base. They knived the easterns pilots after last EBA, now reap what you sow.
Good luck on yer hogs tour mate.
Oh the pain......the pain:}:}

[newsensation]

NJS are doomed....:(

[Dr Phil]

Newsensation

In my best Pauline Hanson voice.... PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!!

[R.Cruizo]

717's for Easterns & Sunstate?? I think they still have separate AOC's. Which one would the 717 be placed on??

It would be similar to watching a group of seagulls fight over the last chip.

[missing link]

Think embraer 170 or RJ 1000..........................word is the powers that be are looking to off set the Virgin onslaught - maybe a little late I feel:suspect:

[Hugh Jarse]

How's it Hangin wrote: Ps I'll believe it when I see it!!

Give that man a cigar ;)

[Parc-Ratstej]

Simple solution to retain regional crew-give them all the chance to feed in to the qantas mainline group,forget the bulls&it apptitude tests,look after the crew and they shall remain faithfull,treat them like idiots,park aeroplanes against the fence...fairly simple one would think!

[grrowler]

From the Bombardier website:

An undisclosed customer has placed a firm order for 15 of the aircraft, with a conditional order for an additional 15. Based on CRJ1000 list price, the contract value for this 15 aircraft firm order is approximately $704 million US, which could increase to $1.5 billion US if the airline's 15 conditional orders are executed.

Somehow I don't think it's qlink, but who knows... they aren't due till 2009 and I guess the 717's will be outta lease by then?

[Capn Bloggs]

2009 and I guess the 717's will be outta lease by then?
You guessed wrong, growler...:cool:

Lead sled-1000s for Oz. Hmmm. Now let's see. Where have we got 3500m of concrete for these little puppies? Yeh, let's put them up against the Jungle Jets. Yeh, right...

[SOPS]

Actually Bloggs..only 1880m required for a -1000. Believe it or not other aircraft types can fly in WA..and they may just do that.

[newsensation]

Apparently Sunstate to become the Dash 8 AOC holder and Eastern to have the CRJ900/1000's on their AOC.... do you think Sunstate Pilots will want a single line seniority list?????:D

[DeafStar]

Nice wind up. Eastern hoping like mad to get 1 400. Combined list then irrevelant.

[Going Boeing]

At an aviation expo last week, a Bombardier spokesman told me that Qantaslink was firmly in their sights as a launch customer for the new C series with deliveries starting 2013.

Advantages that are being touted for the C series are:-
Composite technology wings/empenage
Aluminium Lithium Pressurised fuselage
Superior field performance and range
Widebody cabin comfort and storage
New advanced technology engines
Advanced flight deck

Claims are that the C series will have 15% lower operating costs than current "New 100+ seat jets" and 17-20% less fuel than current "New 100+ seat jets". Also, large reductions in emissions and noise are promised.

Four models are being developed: C110, C110ER, C130, C130ER (not to be confused with the military trash-hauler). The model numbers relect the seating capacity with one class 32" pitch.

Figures are:
C110, Max pax range 1800NM, MTOW 53,887kgs, MLW 50,349kgs, Payload 13,971kgs, Thrust 23,300lbs, TOFL (MTOW, MTOT, SL, ISA) 1317metres, LFL (MLW, SL) 1422m, Initial cruise altitude (from MTOW) 39,000ft, Max Alt 41,000ft, Max cruise speed M0.82, Normal cruise speed M0.78

C110ER, Max pax range 2700NM, MTOW 57,970kgs, MLW 50,349kgs, Payload 13,971kgs, Thrust 23,300lbs, TOFL (MTOW, MTOT, SL, ISA) 1509metres, LFL (MLW, SL) 1422m, Initial cruise altitude (from MTOW) 37,000ft, Max Alt 41,000ft, Max cruise speed M0.82, Normal cruise speed M0.78

C130, Max pax range 1800NM, MTOW 58,650kgs, MLW 54,658kgs, Payload 16,556kgs, Thrust 23,300lbs, TOFL (MTOW, MTOT, SL, ISA) 1594metres, LFL (MLW, SL) 1521m, Initial cruise altitude (from MTOW) 37,000ft, Max Alt 41,000ft, Max cruise speed M0.82, Normal cruise speed M0.78

C110ER, Max pax range 2700NM, MTOW 63,095kgs, MLW 54,658kgs, Payload 16,556kgs, Thrust 23,300lbs, TOFL (MTOW, MTOT, SL, ISA) 1890metres, LFL (MLW, SL) 1521m, Initial cruise altitude (from MTOW) 35,000ft, Max Alt 41,000ft, Max cruise speed M0.82, Normal cruise speed M0.78

Would any of the B717/Bae146/Jungle Jet drivers like to give an opinion on the suitability of these aircraft types to operations into airfields where the B717 is a bit limited. Unfortunately, I don't have any figures for ISA+15 or ISA+20 as this would give a better insight.

[RENURPP]

My understanding is that with the new chip/more thrust the 717's now have, they are not limited anywhere at any temp. Cap Bloggs may like to confirm that is the case in WA.

[Capn Bloggs]

The C Series is an interesting aeroplane and those numbers stack up pretty well, but they haven't even convinced the B board there's a business case for it yet. :cool: After all, it was cancelled year before last, now it's back on again...

Of course, unless B gives them away, the savings in DOCs compared to some "old" 717s would be more than offset by the extra cost: a C130 wouldn't be a cheap jet. You may as well just use 737s if you're going to need 130 seats.

Without giving away any trade secrets, the 717 now has as much power as I need! :ok:

How much will a CSeries endo cost me? :{ :ugh:

[Parc-Ratstej]

Goeing Boeing_it all sounds good except the 2013 bit!!!!Too late by about 5 years perhaps..I dont think the competition will hang around waiting.
.

[WynSock]

E-170 parked on the international apron in Cairns today...

pretty flash looking all painted up in the VB red.

Whatever the Qlink bean-counters are planning, they had better hurry up!

[doorstop]

The -1000 looks like a mean beast. 41.6 tonne MTOW with 28,000 lb trust per side. I think the 717 is about 52T and 23,000lb with the uprated engines.
A simplistic comparision I know but it would certainly go off like a sack full of feral cats.

[Capn Bloggs]

SOPs,

only 1880m required for a -1000
Reality check, mate. Is that at ISA and SL? If it's not at ISA+25, then the -1000 will be a dead duck in WA.

Doorstop,
-1000 looks like a mean beast. 41.6 tonne MTOW with 28,000 lb trust per side.
That's 28k total. Try that verses 53t/42,000lb for the 717. Mind you, IF you can get me a CF-34 that does produce 28,000lb, I know an operator that would like to put a couple on some high-wing flying hairdryers... :ok:

[cunninglinguist]

28,000 lb trust per side

Could be some VMCG/VMCA issues there :}:}

[WynSock]

So,

with the dust settling from the q400 problems, what does the future hold for the ssa/eea dash fleet?

Same old stuff or something new? Virgin bush is going to crush the qlink monopoly unless they act soon.

[SOPS]

And Virgin just might give those 717s a run for their money on the west coast!!