UAE RVSM Issues Mk XXIV

[ATCO1962]

What's this, I read, in today's hand down offering?
UAE centre will, from now on, accept incorrectly FPLed aircraft through their airspace at RVSM levels (without being pushed down to non-RVSM levels) so long as surrounding units can confirm that the concerned aircraft is, in fact, RVSM approved.
To the saner heads that finally put this issue to rest, a hearty "thank you" from those whose jobs are made less onerous and whose airspace is made safer because of the reduced workload.
And to those who think that now is a good time to be careless about filing a correct plan and checking to see that it gets to all the right units, think again. A little professionalism goes a long way to making the system safer.
(ATCO1962 dances out of the room with a smile on his face.)

[Gulfstreamaviator]

There has always been confusion as to the correct IN and OUT waypoints for UAE airspace.

Being based in RAK, I would appreciate the current prefered in out points.

I do not have an AIP in front of me, so please just a little guidance.

Back to the thread, UAE do not, and never have asked if I am RVSM, is this because I am into and out of RAK.??????

glf

[JoeCo]

I have personally been 'forced' to climb or decend out of RVSM airspace because out flight plan had not made it to the UAE. I have no explaination (as much as one would be appreciated) how we can do 85% of a flight in RVSM airspace and upon our arrival into the UAE we are ask to leave RVSM airspace, but for the record, the flight plan was filed and it was filed correctly. Furthermore, we are DXB based. Anyhow, it is good to see that they are 'opening their minds' to system errors.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

The percentage of correct flight plans recieved before the UAE were the bad guys and pushed aircraft down was in the region of 75%, and now it is up around 95%. I hope now we have relaxed the restrictions the operators continue to flight plan correctly, and don't see it as an excuse to fall into their old ways.

For Gulf Stream Aviator the correct entry and corresponding exit points from the UAE FIR are most definately in the UAE AIP, but I don't have the AIP with me so I can't give you the specific reference but it is in the ENR section. Based in RAK I would say that for you to/from the Nth you track in/out via DARAX. From Europe inbound you either come in via ORSAR (Tehran airspace) or via ENASA (Bahrain Airspace). Eastbound to Asia, you plan out via TONVO, LALDO or southbound to Africa via TARDI. Inbound from Africa you come in via MUSAP (or if able FL330 you can come in via TANSU) or if inbound from Asia you come in via PASOV and then in to SHJ as per a Dubai arrival and then get sent to RAK at our or Dubai Approaches earliest convenience. I hope that clears things up, and thats off the top of my head without books to help. :ok:

[ShooTheGap]

Once upon a time a certain Dane (AKA G.O.D), implemented incompetent decisions such as the non FPL no RVSM policy. Thankfully he is now only left to mess up the new ACC Center and no longer allowed to develop and implement these nonsense decsions.
Bring in a new competent manager and now people have to justify these poilicies and decisions.
Now if only dubai could pull their weight and change the 5 aircraft on vectors and frequency sector loading policy.! Jebel Ali will have more runways than aircrafts on frequency!

[JoeCo]

Shoo you raise a good point. I never understood why it is so popular with ATC units in the Middle East to take a/c's off of the arrive routes and vector them exactly along the arrival route. The 2 most popular places that I have seen this is in Riyadh and Dubai. What's wrong with just following the DESDI3T? Having to vector a/c must be adding to the ATC's work load I would imagine. Why not just let them follow the STAR and hand off when required? Of course long cuts at BUBOK due to traffic are understandable, if required. Maybe that is essentially what is being accomplished with the "HDG 120 at TARDI"???

As it appears we have a few ATC guys on the forum, I'd like to ask another question regarding the coordination of sectors. Many times we are asked to slow down to 250 at 10,000. Not a problem. But when we get handed off we are asked to speed up. or vise versa. Or the other example is that we are happily flying down the airway at our cruising speed, get handed off to DXB and told to enter the hold. Again, if its busy and we have to hold, no problem. But maybe better communications between ATC agencies and we could have slowed down while on route to assist with the coordination of the inbound traffic. I understand busy periods and traffic congestion etc etc, I just think its odd to be cruising at 460kt right into a hold. Personnaly I'd prefer to slow down on route then to be doing circles over the Gulf. I know for a fact that the passengers would prefer straight and level flight even if it is a bit slower.

I guess my point is that with better communications better centers then perhaps it would avoid the vectoring and holding and essentially help lower ATC work load and probably help increase capacity? Or am I missing something?

Just asking.

Thanks.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Ok JoeCo here goes. First of all you would never be handed off to Dubai Approach and told to hold, cos they aren't allowed to hold aircraft. You would probably be switched from UAE North to UAE West and told to hold cos UAE WEst is the holding sector that handles the traffic into Dubai from the West (as the name suggests).

As far as the slowing down and vectors and then switched to Dubai and given track shortening and high speed, I sympathise, as it drives us crazy in the Area Centre as well. We are told by Dubai what spacing they need through each gate (at the moment it is 20 NM in trail spacing during the busiest rush at night from 9pm till 3am local, and 15 NM at all other times unless Dubai asks for more), and so we have no choice but to use speed, vectors or holds to achieve that spacing. To vector the backside of someone and have them back to 250 KT's from top of descent only to hear them given high speed and direct UKRUM on first contact with Dubai App drives us crazy.

In saying that the problem for Dubai Approach is they are told not to individually coordinate reduced spacing so they are instructed that they are to leave on the 20 NM spacing even if they only need 10 between 2 aircraft. The flow system into Dubai is a dogs breakfast and both UAE ACC and Dubai TMA agree that it needs to be completely overhauled.

There have been ongoing efforts to resolve all this by bringing in a timed gate time based on the order of arrival on final, and then hopefully we as area controllers get you the pilot to meet the time at DESDI and as long as Dubai keep their hands off and allow you to fly the full STAR at 250 kts the sequence will work. Unfortunately there is still a fair way to go with getting that approved by all parties for a lot of reasons (a lot of them political).

I hope that gives you some insight. :ok:

Oh and on your point of slowing you down earlier enroute to help with the sequence, the problem we have is on one hand you are coming from Tehran Radar and we are lucky if we get correct ontime coordination of your flight from them let alone trying to pass on speed control instructions to them, and on the other hand you are coming from Bahrain where they have their own hell in a handbasket going on and have no time to try and pass on speed control instructions on our behalf. The result is we get you late where speed control is of very limited help cos with the strong Westerly winds we are trying to push you down to get you out of the wind, but if we issue you with speed control early you stay up high and we end up with no net gain, which means that we are having to resort to at least vectors, but most likely these days a minimum of 20 minutes holding during peak times.

[JoeCo]

Thanks for the very informative reply!!

Although it does not appear that the vectoring/holding/slowing down then go fast issues will be quickly resolved or eliminated, you have certainly made it clearer to me what the over-all story is and have helped me to at least understand where the comfussion or problem lies.

However, I guess the 1 runway operations at DXB that went on for god-knows-how-many-months never helped the situation either.

Otherwise the system appears to work well outside of the 9pm-3am hours you mentioned.

As for Bahrain, points all noted. As for Tehran, well, in my experience they are improving, although be it at a much slower rate then needed.

Good luck with getting the issues resolved, I am sure both ATC and pilots alike will welcome the coordination.

Cheers!

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Remember that even though there appears to be 2 runways in Dubai, it is just a mirage. The spacing has actually been increased since the 2nd runway was "opened" for "some operations". We waited how long for this damn runway and now it actually causes the increased spacing times to increase :confused:


Tehran are improving a lot, but they can also still be difficult to work with at times if you upset them. A common one is we knock them back on sending someone direct DESDI rather than via ORSAR as we have traffic via NADAM to effect. Their response is to deny all requests for direct DESDI or early release for the rest of the night. Makes life tough!

[JoeCo]

Ahhh the infamous immaturity of the Middle East rears its ugly head. LOL!! Great to know you work with professional’s isn’t it?

Shame about the 2nd runway. What happened there??? Another poor decision made by a wise man??

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

To be honest I am not sure. I have heard a range of things from not enough tower controllers to run the two runways simultaneously one for departures and one for arrivals as was planned, to landing aids and SIDS/STARS not being approved for new runway. I am not sure of the real reason but right now it is making no difference to the congestion problem we have in Dubai as either one runway or the other is used at any one time but not both. If only we could go back to 2 years ago when we were able to provide 10 NM spacing through all gates, the delays we have now would not be happening.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Very many interesting points covered, thanks A.N.S.A., your input re RAK routes is clear.
Sometimes we made the gate, and then were told to follow a Dubai arrival.
I have added these gates to my crib sheet.

many thanks from us up north.

glf