Chavez Vows Revenge for Falklands War

[ORAC]

Chavez vows revenge for Falklands war (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2368707.ece)

IN a new outburst of antiwestern sabre-rattling, President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has threatened Britain with “revenge” for the Falklands war of 1982. The belligerent Latin American leftist warned last week that his recent build-up of sophisticated Russian and Iranian weapons would be used to destroy the British fleet if it attempted to return to the South Atlantic.

Speaking on his weekly television show Alo Presidente (Hello, Mr President), Chavez denounced what he described as Britain’s “illegal occupation” of the Falklands and repeated his call for a regional military alliance against Britain and the United States. “If we had been united in the last war, we could have stopped the old empire,” Chavez said, as he gesticulated to maps showing how Venezuelan aircraft and submarines would intercept British warships. “Today we could sink the British fleet.”

Chavez has often expressed support for Argentina’s claim to the Falklands, but his latest broadside was notable for both its antiBritish vitriol and its unprecedented threats. He declared that British history was “stained with the blood of South America’s indigenous people” and demanded revenge for the “cowardly” sinking of the General Belgrano, the Argentine cruiser.

Western diplomats have long grown used to harangues from Chavez, who announced this weekend that he would negotiate with guerrillas holding dozens of hostages in Colombia, including three US contractors and Ingrid Betancourt, a French-Colombian abducted as she campaigned for president in 2002. But US and British officials have recently become more concerned by his willingness to lavish billions of dollars from Venezuela’s soaring oil income on military capabilities.

On his TV programme, Chavez introduced a group of 30 Venezuelan pilots who were trained in Russia to fly a squadron of 24 Sukhoi SU-30 multi-role fighters. The aircraft were part of a $3 billion armaments deal with Moscow. Chavez has also bought 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles and negotiated to set up a Kalashnikov factory in Venezuela. He has reportedly ordered nine Russian diesel submarines, including the cruise missile-carrying 677E Amur-class vessel. The Venezuelan pilots told him they would soon be training with medium-range Brahmos missiles, a supersonic antiship cruise missile jointly developed by India and Russia.

US officials also fear that Chavez may be seeking nuclear technology from his contacts with Iran and North Korea. He is discussing a possible joint programme with Tehran to build an unmanned drone aircraft similar to the American Predator and has long been engaged in a regional attempt to promote military cooperation against the US.

So far most of his neighbours have shied away from confrontation with Washington, but Chavez is continuing to press for the creation of a “single South American army”.

His outspoken attacks on Britain and his support for Buenos Aires have gone down well in Argentina, where President Nestor Kirchner’s wife, Cristina, is the favourite to succeed her husband in elections next month.

While there is no indication that either of the Kirchners wants to precipitate a new crisis over the Falklands, military analysts say Venezuela’s lengthening military reach might seriously impede any British attempt to dispatch a new task force.

[Al R]

The man is mad, and/or has a small penis.

He has already introduced legislation to make him rule by decree, and now, only last week in fact, his Parliament have 'approved' the end to him ruling with any limit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6958030.stm

.. and a day or two back, negotiated with terrorists. He'sone stage worse than being a sabre rattler, the man is insane. He wants trouble.. and given Venezuala's mineral resources, and the fact its on the US's doorstep, it has all the makings of the next disaster zone.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Lock him in a TV studio with Mugabe and let them wind each other up to spout ever more paranoid drivel until their heads explode. Take bets on who will keel over first with a blown head valve and set up a vote line for topics for them to drool on about to increase audience participation.

Got to be better than BB and the other reality crud doing the rounds.

[ArthurR]

Its nice to know your friends, Its even better to know your enemies.

[ArthurR]

Bluecar, nice one :ok:

[dagowly]

the guys a nut job. I bet he goes into pubs shouting "i could kick all your asses!"

[F34NZ]

Hmmm....Spain's rather more vigorous involvement in shedding the blood of LatAm's indigenous people....Cuba's habit of denying its citizens the right to choose their own government....the junta's disappearances...the admission by several Argentine navy officers that the Belgrano was a threat to our ships....the gutless defilement of islanders' homes in '82 ....Hugo's penchant for Cartier watches.... Hugo's involvement in a coup in the early nineties....the arrest of a Venezuelan businessman as he arrived in Argentina with a bag full of cash, on a flight carrying a senior Argentine politician....the transfer of spoil from the old Venezuelan oligarchy to his placemen....the point of spending $3 billion on weapons when so many of his people are so grindingly poor....nope, he doesn't seem to have touched on any of these.

Single LatAm army ? Getting past Uribe in Colombia might be interesting, let alone the Brazilians, and further south he doesn't have many influential friends in government. It's believed that if Mme Kirchner replaces her husband at the next election she'll backpedal away from Chavez to a tactful distance, both to regain traction with the US and because Chavez' assistance is reaching or has passed the limits of its usefulness. She shows no signs of ramping up the pressure on the FIs either, which is helpful.

I do like the idea of a Hugo and Bob Show, though. Suggested topics :

- Who has the bigger dick.
- Who is the bigger dick.
- Whose dad is harder.
- Whose dad was first to climb Everest. Alone. Without oxygen. Or clothes.
- Who scares the imperialist running dogs more.
- Why the only callers seem to be Ken from London and Tommy from Jockistan.

[Two's in]

Isn't the Military Attache on Blue Car's link to the Embassy staff the guy off The Soprano's?

[Lima Juliet]

Can we go to Belize please...

Fighting in the Caribbean is soo much more civilised!

http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/1563swamp.jpg

[Al R]

I feel sick when I see these two together. That Livingstone has allowed London to recieve free oil as a cheap publicity stunt (and because he has f#cked up with his 2012 accounts) from that that little fat cretin is beyond belief. On the plus side, it does allow us to say things like;

What do you get when you cross an w#nk stain with an oil stain?'

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1017/1214891795_cff5df8034_o.jpg

[Vie sans frontieres]

Castro's been thumbing a snook to the 'World's Policeman' for decades it has been great to watch; for all his faults, he's got style and substance and is clearly a cut above a nut-job like Chavez. To class him as Doctor Evil to Chavez as Mini-me is typical of the right-wing, neo-con garbage spouted by the one-eyed American media.

[Al R]

Sure, Castro has been doing that, but whilst he's been getting off on an anti US crusade, what have his people gained?

[Vie sans frontieres]

I did say, "For all his faults." He's far from perfect but fair play to him for not buckling. Viva la underdog.

[Al R]

Anyone can not buckle when they have access to the kind of food, leisure facilities and medical care the people don't..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6972511.stm

[Al R]

.. and talking of trouble on their back door, in addition, I wonder if China's 'concession' and 'honesty' is nothing more than a red herring?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6974797.stm

The US (and NATO I assume..) is going to have its hands full in the near future. God knows the US/we need(s) to resolve the ME problem.. and pronto.

[West Coast]

I hope those in Europe will sit up and take notice. HC's dislikes are not limited to just the US.
I also hope this isn't simply dismissed but rather given the attention within the UK it deserves.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Some Europeans may rather like the Chav;

India Daily, November 27, 2004.

After Iraq it is Venezuela - the next oil confrontation between America and Euro Zone and this time a new super power coalition of India, China, Russia and Brazil makes the difference.
www.indiadaily.com/edi...27b-04.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/edi...27b-04.asp)

Fair enough, this is "old" news but I don't recall seeing any change of intention.

[Al R]

Talking of China's red herring..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6975934.stm

There's not much point in them being accountable to us, if all they can tell us (openly) is that they're supplying the enemy.

[Kitbag]

I suppose the banter about having a little willy to wave should be expected here, however, should the Argentine decide to have a go backed by the man with the little willy, how well could the totally emasculated British Forces regain control of the area around the islands?

[Airborne Aircrew]

how well could the totally emasculated British Forces regain control of the area around the islands?

There's mineral rights in them thar waters ye know...

[brickhistory]

There's mineral rights in them thar waters ye know...


You rang? :}

[West Coast]

"There's mineral rights in them thar waters ye know"

Clearly then the US will invade as that's what the Americans do. NK may be coming off the axis of evil list if they give up the nukes, leaving a spot for the Malvinas/Falklands.

[1.4G]

Clearly then the US will invade

I guess they will pour 50,000 troops into the area and mess that up as well.

[Airborne Aircrew]

leaving a spot for the Malvinas/Falklands.

Ahhh... Good, Britain is now part of the axis of evil...

Duh...

[West Coast]

Since when did the Falklands/Malvina become Britain?

Dependent territories perhaps.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain

[Airborne Aircrew]

The Falkland Islands is an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom.

The Islands are internally self-governing with the exception of defence and foreign affairs, which remain the responsibility of the British Government. The Governor formally exercises executive authority on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, although, in practice, policy decisions are made by the elected members of the Government.Source (http://www.falklandislands.com/government/system.asp)

It's a tad helpful if you find the factually relevant information rather than just information that "seems" to prove your point... ;)

PS: Great Britain = United Kingdom... In case you were confused... :E

[bad livin']

Kitbag - one T boat and some Typhoons with associated tanking would give pause for thought. They'd have to get their men ashore by water or parachute...and the above options might make either approach very painful.

[West Coast]

"The Falkland Islands is an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom"

So it's not Britain.

Just as Guam isn't the US.

[Kitbag]

one T boat and some Typhoons with associated tanking would give pause for thought. They'd have to get their men ashore by water or parachute...


Sorry, didn't realise those assets were in the area right now to deter the naughty Argies :oh: Mind you I suppose they could just blockade the place.

Still, be interesting to see how we would get feet back on the ground if the air cover described in the first post on this thread is effective

[Fitter2]

PS: Great Britain = United Kingdom... In case you were confused...

Well no, actually.

United Kingdon = Great Britain (England, Scotland and wales) + N. Ireland.

I had great difficulty explaining the nuances of the England/GB/UK terminology as the UK delegate to one of the FAI Commisions.

It helped explaining that the 'Great' bit was to differentiate from 'Lesser' Britain, the NW bit of froggyland, rather than being the best country in the world (which was to be taken as implicit, and not needed in the name)..

[Airborne Aircrew]

West Coast:

Read what you originally wrote... Please tell me you aren't silly enough to claim that an "overseas territory of the United Kingdom" could replace NK in the "Axis of Evil"... :ugh:

[osbo]

AA

Great Britain = United Kingdom... In case you were confused...


Err.....no, actually. The United Kingdom consists of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.....unless something has changed since I woz @ skool...many years ago, admittedly!

[Airborne Aircrew]

Great Britain = United Kingdom

Errr... You'd be surprised to see how many people in this world think that the two are mutually exclusive, hence I pointed out the "similarity".

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Now what did we do with those Sea Harriers (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152)? Oh! :eek:

Seriously it is unlikely anything could happen except as a result of gross stupidity by the UK, like withdrawing the Falklands garrison.

Back to Chavez - what do Brazil, Chile etc make of him?

[Archimedes]

IIRC, the Chileans aren't that keen. Chavez supports Bolivian claims for access to the sea, which would involve the creation of a corridor to the Pacific through Chilean territory.

Relations between Brazil and Venezuela appear to be worsening. There's a dispute over Mercosur membership between the two - Venezuela wants to become a member, but this needs the Brazilian senate to ratify the decision; The Brazilian senate feels that Venezuela hasn't yet met the entry conditions. Chavez has put his teddy on R5 to move from its holding position in the pram and is threatening to withdraw from Mercosur if the Brazilians don't give him what he wants. He's also unhappy that the Brazilian senate was a tad critical of his banning of the opposition TV station, while Brazilian industrialists have, in effect, warned the government to trust Chavez no further than they can throw him.

The TV dispute led to Chavez saying something rather rude about the Brazilian senators (I forget what), and this led to the ambassador being called in for a no coffee, no Ferrero Rocher chat with the Brazilian foreign minister.

[Razor61]

It will be bloody years before the Typhoon ends up at MPA. Why not buff up the F3 force for now to give a message to the numpty we mean business.
4 Tornado F3s and 1 Tanker is a F'ing lot of good to a load of Argies and Venezuelans attack the Islands plus or minus a Type 42 or 23.
Won't we be in the same situation as last time? Takes weeks for us to get there by ship. How many forces are stationed there for defence of the islands if the **** hits the fan?

going back to SHAR, why on earth didn't we fund a programme similar to the AV-8B+ where the GR9 upgrade could have included a new nose with the Blue Vixen radar fitted inside together with associated avionics fit. That way we would only have one type of Harrier, but both Ground attack and a very capable Air-Air platform all in one.
Or was this too complicated?

[GreenKnight121]

The AV-8B / GR5/7/9 is a very space-limited, weight critical aircraft, and fitting the APG-65 radar meant removal of most of the specialized attack avionics (especially the "night attack" equipment.

That is why the USMC had 27 new-build B+ and 72 conversions to B+ done (last delivered 2003), but kept 61 B(NA) as non-radar versions.

Yes, money was a consideration, but it could have been found if the USMC really wanted it... especially after 9/11/2001.

[Al R]

Back to Chavez - what do Brazil, Chile etc make of him?

Chavez wouldn't support any involvement in taking back the FI simply to appeal to the rest of South America. The risks are too great to the little fella. At the moment, he's walking a fine enough line as it is. As has been said, the rest of S America doesn't trust him and it'd hardly be an astute move to ask the people to support him in assisting a foreign invasion as soon as he's been declared to in charge of the bananas for life. He'd last as long as the guests at a 'Meet the team!' JPA cheese and wine party by the sounds of it. The appeal to him, would be in highlighting rifts elsewhere. The Americans will have neither the time nor the inclination to 'help' us out this time, and the Europeans won't either. But I don't think that the cost benefit analysis is attractive enough to him.

It would mean too, effectively, the end to any South American alliances and he'd have a world of **** on his doorstep. At the moment, he has commonality with the rest of them down there, in that they all dislike the US. Also, he has enough wealth under Venezuala to be bothered about upsetting the balance of things down there. If the Argies had the FI, they'd be one step closer to getting their own oil supply. At the moment, Chavez does good business in selling to them.. why would he want to stop that and have a competitor on his doorstep at the same time? It'd be like el Fayed helping Mr Debenham fill out a Application for Planning Approval in Knightsbridge.

Disclaimer: Having said that, he is of course, completely demented, so all bets are off.

[Vie sans frontieres]

The Argentinians already have their own oil supply from the east coast and elsewhere. Not sure how many buckets they've got left though.

Didn't someone once suggest giving them West Falkland and keeping East Falkland for those of Bristish origin? No? Well I'm suggesting it now. It's only fair. How would we feel if they claimed the Isle of Wight?

[knowitall]

"Didn't someone once suggest giving them West Falkland and keeping East Falkland for those of Bristish origin? No? Well I'm suggesting it now."

who ever suggested it was an idiot

1. you've just handed them the perfect staging post to invade the rest of the islands

2. what about the wishes of the 150 people who live there?, at what numerical threshhold does it become right to force people to become part of a country they want nothing to do with

[Vie sans frontieres]

You're right. We should give them the whole lot and be done with it. Think how far the Bennies' swollen bank accounts would stretch in Argentina's shattered economy.

[PTT]

at what numerical threshhold does it become right to force people to become part of a country they want nothing to do with?
Shades of Israel?

[knowitall]

"Shades of Israel? "

which has what to do with a thread on the falklands?

[Not_a_boffin]

The Benny's are looking to set up a sunglasses franchise.....

[Vie sans frontieres]

Mr Knowitall needs to open his mind a little and when he's done that, open his atlas up, take a look at the map of the world and then logically explain what possible right of claim a little country straddling 52 north could possibly have over some islands at 52 south, then look at the big country straddling 65 west and ask why they logically shouldn't have a claim over some islands at 60 west. (And us nicking them in the 19th Century is not a satisfactory answer.)

[harrogate]

"How would we feel if they claimed the Isle of Wight?"

Wouldn't bother me, but my Gran would be PROPER f*cked off.

Then Chavez will have REAL problems.

[hoodie]

look at the big country straddling 65 west and ask why they logically shouldn't have a claim over some islands at 60 west.

Oh, indeed. Germany is even closer than that to Poland. A shame their self-evidently logical claim way back in the 30s caused so much fuss at the time, isn't it? :hmm:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Oh, indeed. Germany is even closer than that to Poland.

As is Iran to Iraq.

Vie sans frontieres - You can play these silly games all day but the bottom line (and the line in the view of the UN) is that proximity does not bestow 'ownership'. Neither does 'grandfather rights', the Falklands has never been a part of Argentina.

[Brian Dixon]

Would it not be easier to just remind Chavez that XH558 will be flying again sometome soon? ;)

[PTT]

which has what to do with a thread on the falklands?
Context, knowitall, context.

The question asked was "at what numerical threshhold does it become right to force people to become part of a country they want nothing to do with?"

I answered that the question brought to mind the plight of the arab people living in the area which is now known as Israel. It would appear that the number of people living in this area was not sufficient to prevent us from forcing them to live in a new country, against their will, in 1948. The current Falklands population is likely to be even less than that number.

Vie sans frontieres stated:
And us nicking them in the 19th Century is not a satisfactory answer.
Actually, I can't think of a better reason than that. Every nation today exists because someone with a bigger better stick nicked the land.

[Zero feet, decending]

I'm afraid I have to reply to the comment "...what have his people gained?"

I've been to Cuba an seen at first hand. The people have jobs. They are not starving. They are more literate and numerate than a lot of the young people here and, due mainly to uncle Che, they have one medical doctor for every 10 of the population.
Ask them if they want a change and most would decline.

Rant off. :ok:

[harrogate]

If they're buying all this new kit, it can only be good for us...

We go to war with them, they throw their new kit at us, the Yanks come to back us up, we beat them back, we then salvage all their choppers that will have been shot down, refurb them and send them to Afghanistan.

It's the future of procurement.

[Razor61]

It's fitting that although the yanks backed us up last time by giving us a few sidewinders. Think about it.
Just one US Nimitz class sitting off or jollying around South Atlantic on rotation would deter the Argies for good.
We build a huge airfield, send down 4 old fighters, 1 very old tanker, 1 very old hercules and with a few hundred troops to keep the Islands from being invaded. Out to sea we have 1 warship with 1 support tanker and 1 small protection vessel.

It will take us weeks to get there if they do invade and even then, we haven't even got enough vessels to do anygood anyway.

The yanks on the other hand can have 1 carrier with 70+ warplanes onboard with a couple of escort and support ships...

[West Coast]

"Ask them if they want a change and most would decline"

What answer would you expect when the "press representative" looking over the shoulder

[Brain Potter]

It would not take weeks to reinforce the air component in the Falklands in order to deter any aggression. And it would certainly be with F3s, tankers and perhaps E3 but not Typhoon. Those 4 "old" fighters and "very old" tanker are a more powerful AD force than the task force had embarked in 1982.

[knowitall]

"Mr Knowitall needs to open his mind a little and when he's done that, open his atlas up"

both are open and fine thanks

on your basis will france be giving Saint-Pierre and Miquelon to canada?

will the spanish be handing back their north african enclaves?

will the yanks be giving alaska to canada?

no thought, not


"And us nicking them in the 19th Century is not a satisfactory answer."

maybe not but the fact that those who currently live there don't wish their current situation to change is more than reason enough

I suggest you purchase a history book and a whilst your at it look up the word decolonisation in a dictionary

last time i checked it didn't include forcing people to become part of a country that has lurched from brutal military dictatorship to economic basket case, against their will

[Fearofabluntplanet]

That must be why there are so many American refugees making the difficult trip across the sea from Florida to Cuba.......

[C130 Techie]

Having just returned from said Islands after another 4 month holiday in support of the "ageing tanker and very old C130" and experiencing the 25th Anniversary commemorations (not celebrations) it is fully evident that the Falkland Islanders have no desire to change to Argentinian rule. It is one of the few places left in the world where members of the British armed forces are made to feel genuinely welcome (maybe for obvious reasons but welcome we are). The deterrant is still real enough despite the age of the hardware and despite previous comments the current plan is to have Typhoon in theatre by Oct 2008.

It is interesting though to note that even the Brazillian authorities are prepared to make life as difficult as possible for us by putting diplomatic obstacles in the way (experienced first hand during compassionate and medevac flights).

[eastern wiseguy]

Cubans

I've been to Cuba an seen at first hand. The people have jobs. They are not starving.

They also have a ration card and are pleased to beg for soap.....perhaps we went to different Cuba's?

[MarkD]

zero feet is right - having spoken to them, they all have jobs which keep a roof over their heads. Then they have the other job which puts bread in their mouths. And maybe another one to keep clothes on their backs.

[visited Varadero and Havana in April]

That said, when capitalism comes, it won't take the cubans long to figure it out. Not a slow people at all.

[GreenKnight121]

WOW... 300% employment!

Isn't Communism great? :hmm:

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Minor point Knowitall

The U.S. bought Alaska from Russia (late in the 19th century I believe..)

For $ 7.2 million

Just before oil was discovered there :ouch:

[brickhistory]

Oil around the Falklands, you say?


Say, didn't we claim 'em, put our flag up once?!

Maybe it's time to dust off that claim......................:}

[F34NZ]

brickhistory : according to my copy of Falkland Islands Shores, in 1831 USS Lexington booted the Args off the islands after they'd arrested three American ships, and then declared the islands free of all government.

Give it about ten posts and someone will be along to reassure you that it's all America's fault, just like everything else.....

[Archimedes]

Why wait that long?

In a way it is America's 'fault', since under the Monroe Doctrine, the US SOP should've been to be most upset when we claimed them in 1833.

However, they chose not to object, and we stayed there. So it's all the Americans' fault... :}

[knowitall]

"The U.S. bought Alaska from Russia (late in the 19th century I believe..)"

I know just using it to demonstrate the absurdity of VSF's argument

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Apologies, knowitall.

Don't I look Ironing-challenged now

[eagle 86]

You are all acting like a bunch of parents spelling words out in front of the kids - have you ever thought of what the Falkland Islanders would want - no I thought not!
GAGS
E86

[Maple 01]

have you ever thought of what the Falkland Islanders would want - no I thought not!

We all know what the Bennies want, to stay British and be left alone

Only place I’ve ever taken a call from a farmer complaining that he hadn’t been overflown in days

[Zero feet, decending]

Eastern,
I appreciate your sentiment and your point is well made, however, if I compare literacy rates, child morality and welfare states of Cuba and parts of the great US of A, for example,I know where i'd rather be if I was poor. *Points to the poorer residents of New Orleans* :sad:

There's no begging in Cuba, unless it's for the tourists and there's no police around. :hmm:
I've done Havanna and Varadero as well. (The sky-diving was awesome!)

Sorry for the thread drift. Just felt the need to defend an unjustified (IMHO) attack on Cuba. :=