Why is it always a little negative?

[SlingsbyT67M]

I am considering going down the modular route at age 38 and am very nervous about it. I think "pprune" is fantastic to say the least :D there is nothing like being informed. Making an informed decision is very important. However it appears that so many threads/posts in this section are so negative. At times there is the odd, "you will get a job don't worry" but on the whole its all about how little opportunity there is out there, and how people have made the biggest mistakes of their lives. I think I have found one thread which is trying to get individuals to let everyone know when they get there first job, but I don't know how successful this has been?

Come on guys. I love flying. There is nothing better than rotating and leaving the ground. There must be stories that can start on a positive note? or is it all just doom and gloom?

[redsnail]

If you want lovely positive stuff, just go to a flying school. They'll tell you every thing is fine and great and every one gets a jet job immediately.

The reason why many posts appear to be "a bit negative" is that the truth isn't the above. People will over spend, people will fail, people will fail to get a decent well paying job within a reasonable time.

Right now, the hiring boom is incredible. It hasn't been this good for many years. As with aviation, what goes up, must come down.

At 38, nothing is impossible, however, the time you have to weather any slow downs and still make up the money you've spent is comparatively short.
You have to ask yourself, can I risk an effective £80,000 and still have a pension to retire on. (Not to mention the effect on your family).

If you can, go for it. If in all honesty you cannot, then fly for fun and enjoy yourself.

[Luke SkyToddler]

It's human nature mate and the nature of the internet, whether it's professional flying or basket weaving. The vast majority of people who are out there and loving it and having a good time, don't really feel the need to get on the internet and tell everyone "wow my job is great I love it". If someone is pissed off at something, or got a particular agenda they want to flog or an axe to grind, bang it's straight onto that keyboard.

[SlingsbyT67M]

Good point Luke skytoddler

[CirrusF]

Maybe you would be encouraged to learn that I completed modular CPL/IR/ME whilst working full time - aged 44. It took three years in total from when I started the ATPL distance-learning written exams.

I don't have a full-time flying job but I do get a lot of free or paid flying related to my job (I work in the super yacht industry in the Med and so get to deliver crew or spare parts around the Mediterranean islands).

[SlingsbyT67M]

Wow Cirrusfrance. you have seriously put a smile on my face:D
have you tried to get a full time job?

[Dean Johnston]

Redsnail is right, if you and your family can afford it then do it, however I have learnt to my dear cost it is hard, very hard. I used to instruct in the UK before moving to Spain. I had a student in the UK who has become a very good pal, he finished is PPL and has bought a PA28. He is mid 20's and earns over £70K. He's a dentist. Why not get a job that pay's and then fly for fun.

I know quite a few airline pilots that hate the job.

[Nibbler]

Hearing about the worst of things makes you stop and rethink every aspect of your inpending decision. It gave me direction in what were the important factors to address.

40k should cover the modular route but visit all the flying schools in your area and bear in mind the number of aircraft and full time instructors will affect your training time / options - which, best case will be about 2 years from PPL to ATPL.

Jobs - I understand how you might have doubts but your age is ok!However to get a serious chance at a FO seat you've got to have quite a few hours built up after your ATPL so the usual idea is to train as an FI and get 500-750 hours behind you. You stand an even better chance if you look for any commercial work rather than just airline and are prepared to pay for a TR yourself.

There are some great good news stories on here. People landing good jobs, knowing no one and just qualified. Just being on the phone at the right moment and being lucky does happen.


Good luck :ok:

[jessie05]

Dean johnston and redsnail are absolutely right. I made the decision to go for it at 40 and really made the wrong call. Primarily because i found it really hard and and have spent around 90k sterling in the process. This figure however does include the fact that i havent worked at all for 15 months and had to pay my mortgage during this time and basically lived my life throughout my training as if i was earning my previous decent salary. Obviously it probably wont cost you that much but beware everything and anything that a flight school tells you ,as unless your very talented for which i am not , then you will overrun on every course that they sell you with exception to maybe the PPL.

I was really looking forward to the filight training after the atpls , but in hindsight i began detesting the flying until i hired a brand new cessna 172 with garmin 1000 for my hour building and started to like it again. What i should have done is buy the cessna in the first place for $230000 which is not far from the cost of training and just fly for fun! Should of kept my decent job and flown my friends all over the place.

Ironically , even if i wanted the same type of job back i wouldnt get it , as in my industry they would percieve me as some kind of lunatic to have spent the last year or so blowing all my money on a mid life crisis!!

But at the end of the day its your choice and cash and noone can make that decision for you.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

jess

[Dean Johnston]

Jess. You fool, you at 40 yrs should have known better. At least I was only 38 yrs and did'nt have the wisdom of yourself. LOL.
All you wannabees you must factor in lots of other things;
1) 3-4 years training
2) How much could I earn during that time ?
3) How much will I spend on travel ? ( need a car cos your all over the place )
4) Accomadation )
5) Exam fees ( not included in most FTO prices )
6) Exam resits ( it happens )
7) Flight test fees.
8) Flight test 2 ( It happens )
The above could but another £60K on your dream.
I don't want to put people off, just share a little wisdom.

[Dean Johnston]

Also on the line of wisdon, my ex CFI told me,
If it fly's fornicates or floats it's cheaper to rent it.
The older I get the more I think he's right.

[SlingsbyT67M]

guys I know you are just trying to impart your wisdom and for that I am most grateful. This is really starting to make me think that I am starting to make the biggest mistake of my life!!!!

[Life's a Beech]

I have no idea where Dean Johnson gets his "3-4 years" from. The
whole thing can be completed in a year from zero if you set your mind to it. Cars are not essential, one of my pilots can't even drive. Accomodation comes from as little as £5000 per annum with food if you are willing to make a commitment by slumming it (I paid less, but that was a few years back). I do know one person who spent £60k more than the basic, but he astonished the rest of us with his profligacy. He is a great guy and I have heard he has a job now; don't know if he remained solvent. In fact everyone I am still hearing about/from has a job, at least instructing.

As for availability of jobs, Redsnail is right this is a huge boom. I am tearing my hair out at the moment trying to find pilots who are capable and willing to do the job - i.e. moderate competence and willingness to relocate. If you know any pilot with a few hundred hours who hasn't got a job then tell him or her to PM me!

[driftdown]

As somebody in the hiring business explained to me it can come down to age and flying hours. 40 years old and 200 + hours no turbine or heavy transport experience or the alternative 40 years with a type rating, a few thousand hours in transport category aircraft.

From a company point of view the answer is a no brainer, from a wannabee point of view it sucks :yuk:

There will always be people saying go for it, pilot hiring boom etc, my advice would be if you can afford to lose the money then go ahead, be prepared for a lot of hard work with the possibility of not getting a job at the end of it.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

It would appear your post breeds more negative comments, along with a list of items from DJ regarding the process and cost. It is irrelevant to put a negative twist on it, it is a question of doing your research. Also Dean, if you know plenty of airline pilots that hate the job, they are in the wrong job!

Slingsby, I would suggest you put things in persepctive, do thorough research on what is required, do your sums and go for it. I know it is hard to get a job as a professional pilot, most things in life that are worth it are. I know alot of people that have come through this, me included, and we have all got there in the end.

All the best with it and good luck.

[preduk]

I know a few commercial pilots who are flying with BA, BMI etc

Never heard them praise the job. I wanted to be a pilot, but everyone I know has told me to do flying as a hobbie, not a career.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Preduk, why not do both? :ok:

I was only saying to my Captain today, as we headed north west bound over the alps 'the view out this window certainly beats the night shifts I did at Tesco while funding my training'. :ugh:

I love the job, wouldn't have it any other way.

[Dean Johnston]

Ouch! seems I've hit a nerve with Lifes a beach and Cat3. Let's got a back a bit. The question was ' why is there so much negativity ' If you know of anyone who can go from nothing to complete in 12 months then you are up there with with marsh mellow cloulds and fizzy pop rain! . The realitity is for us 'middle aged people' (40 can be considered middle aged ) chances are we have family, mortgate, credit card bills, loans ect. 12 months is NOT a realistic figure and could give people a false hope, let's be real, as redsnail said ' if you AND your family can afford the time, money, heartache & low,s then do it. But the key fact is do the sums from people who have been there add up. If you're a switched on 20 year old with a wealthy father then this may not be relevant to you. As for the airline guys who hate the job , then you would need a response from them.

[Dean Johnston]

Sorry but sat here with a glass of lemonade, bankholiday over here. I really need to understand ' Lifes a beach training program ' I was a instructor in the UK for a few years, I am also in talks with a MAJOR FTO in the UK to train pilots at thier school in spain. Please give a break down of your training program. If I could take someone from zero to complete in 12 months then I could make it as a instructor.

Also it would be nice to hear from people that have achived just that

[littco]

Dean Johnston.
Have to say I think it is perfectly possible to do all the training in 12months. I personally achieved in in 14, however I took 1 month off between finishing my ATPL exams and starting my CPL and then lost 4 weeks due to bad weather/illness waiting for my CPL skills test.
I think we are talking in an ideal world though to complete in 12 months. But its not impossible assuming you have good weather, no personal problems (illness) and you work your b*lls off to get all the ATPL exams done in 5months or less along with the majority of your hour building.
I think the ATPL's are the key though as with some full time schools they do them over an 8 month period and this can greatly increase the amount of time taken to complete the training, where as with distance learning you can get them done in 1/2 that time and I certainly met people that did and still passed them. But thats down to the individual and unfortunately something as an instructor you'll have little control over.

[Dean Johnston]

Littco, good evening.

I don't dout that some people can achive this goal in 12 months, look at the opening line of this post ' I 'm thinking of taking the modular route' please somone show me a training plan reather that just say it's possible.

[Life's a Beech]

Dean

As a flight instructor at a club associated with a UK FTO I have seen people of all ages do the training full-time, in a modular programme. I have also seen people of all ages finish courses with the minimum level of training.

OK it might depend on circumstances, but for most people doing the course straight off is the best value in the long run, as they are then ready to start their aviation careers.

Like Littco I achieved it in a little more, but was ill for a month, requiring additional training after that, and did more training than was strictly necessary. I also did the CPL in a winter with especially poor weather in the UK. The record of anyone I ever met was 9 months, but he worked very hard and was extremely bright. He did the ATPLs by distance learning in less than 6 months while building hours.

Programme to train in 12 months:

PPL 5 weeks. Hour building to 150, night and MEP in another 5 weeks. ATPL exams in 28 weeks. CPL in 6 weeks. IR in 6 weeks. That's 50 weeks, with a couple available for flexibility. It's based on the standard course at the school where I trained, although altered in accordance with my experience. It is achievable in the UK, but certainly if some of the early flying is done in a more predictable climate. Cost around £45,000 last time I checked, including tests and exam fees.

On the other hand I would not recommend anyone to plan for 3-4 years. Those I knew who took that sort of time (not many, usually through accident rather than design) struggled with currency, and had more training than those that went straight through.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

12 months and £45k seems to be about the norm if you work hard and have a little aptitude.

Those spending £70k at large schools ought to take note.

WWW

[Dean Johnston]

O.K 3-4 yrs is on the long side, and I would'nt suggest people plan for that. However a lot of people don't have the luxury of being able to take 12 months out and have £45K.

At the end of the day it's down to personal circumstances, but as said before age 40 you would expect to be carrying an extra load. (wife kids mortgate and such )

Best of luck with the future whichever path you take.

Some people find it a breeze, I found it hard.

[Life's a Beech]

As I said before, the opposite is far more often the case. Most people I have met doing fATPLs (and it is a lot!) didn't have the luxury of spending excess time on the course, as they had to be out there developing their aviation careers, which they couldn't do without the qualifications! This was especially true of the older students. I really can't see how spending 3-4 years working part time helps with the mortgage for most people, as most well-paid jobs are not compatible with flight training. Best simply to take the short-term hit and get through the course.

Even the kids will see more of their parent. With an unsupportive spouse then choose one or the other - flying career or spouse. Saw a few divorces in the FTO, although one or two were more to do with the distractions than the course ;)