Do the integrated lot gain any 'real' P1 time

[expedite08]

I happend to be looking at LASORS the other day, please dont ask, but there you go!
I came accross the section on hours and saw that our integrated friends seem to get away with actually doing any real P1 time! For thier IR they log it all as PICUS, to which it says it counts towards P1 time. Now for the rest of us mere mortals its all logged as dual! Purley for the fact there is an instructor next to us/them.
I am not in any shape wanting to start another debate, however I just find it interesting, that technically these people nine times out of ten go on to fly TP or jets without any 'real P1 experience'! Ie making decisions on thier tod etc. (hour building). Im just suprised the CAA seem to give them more leeway, considering they are going to be employed pretty much straight after the course on a jet or TP.

[Hour Builder]

Integrated course is 195 hours.

50 SPIC- I pressume under a hood in an aircraft with instructor
50 PIC -proper
40 hours dual
55 hours SIM of which 15 is their MCC course.

So really they only do 50 hours solo, however when they apply for an ATPL, they can use their SPIC towards the 250 hours PIC needed. The other 150 hours needed for ATPL is made up of co-pilot/PICUS time in a 2 crew aircraft.

HB

[potkettleblack]

Its not surprising. Its more to do with the nature of the training environment that they operate in and the fact that they are in class each day living and breathing flying. Consider these two scenarios:-

- you rock into your local PPL school down the road. Find your instructor (incidentally who has a few hundred more hours than you) is running late with another student so you sit around waiting for your lesson. In he rushes saying lets just race out to the aircraft and get stuck in. No brief and you bimble your way through wondering what the hell has just happened in the past hour. Your instructor rushes off to another student and leaves you to pay the bill at the front desk.

- conversely a good integrated school will have you briefing for an hour beforehand from an experienced instructor who may well be from an airline or military background. They have probably trained thousands of cadets. They will be briefing from a set of standardised notes that the school will have given you in advance and which you will have read previously. Therefore the brief serves to refresh your memory as to the flight detail you are about to undertake and for you to answer any questions you might have. Following the flight there is a detailed debrief. Notes are written on your progress and any follow up points are considered for future lessons.

Two quite contrasting approaches to training. In the integrated model you need to remember that they know from the PPL stage that you are destined to be a commercial pilot and so the training is focussed at this from the outset. At little sleepy flying club that is not the case.

There is plenty of time to develop command judgement to a "sufficient" level for a new F/O during courses like the MCC and type ratings. This will be reinforced during your line training. New F/O's such as myself are not expected to be running the ship. Sure your opinion will be sought from the skippers (good CRM) but at the end of the day they are in charge and not you. Every line flying day is like going to school. You soak up the knowledge from those around you and develop your skills for when you are ready to make the jump into the LHS.

[Hour Builder]

potkettleblack I can see what you are trying to say, and while some airlines may think integrated pilots are better, you've made the gap between the two courses sound a lot larger then it is.

Bottom line, a pilot on either a modular or integrated course will be examined by a CAA staff examiner, and to the same standard. They both have to attain a certain standard before passing the CPL and IR test-its that simple!

I am doing a modular course, and while the situation you described may be true for a PPL school, it's not like that when it comes to successful well known modular training providers.

HB

[pilotmike]

potkettleblack - up until now, I have had the utmost respect for your posts and opinions, but your view that any modular school is a "little sleepy flying club", and you "you bimble your way through" your lessons has blown that view right out of the water!

Having first hand experience of Stapleford Flight Centre, nothing could be further from the truth. Having studied and passed my ATPLs in under 4 months, my night rating, CPL and IR were complete in just over 3 months - due in no small part to the professional and structured way that Stapleford organised the training.

Bizarely, when I sat my Module 1 exams, I met certain students from a well known Integrated school at Cranfield who were re-sitting their exams. On my Mod 2 exams, I met one of the very same students, still re-sitting some of those very same exams for a 4th time (yes really, 4th time, having failed sufficiently comprehensively to have to re-sit the whole lot!). They had started their expensive tutored path to failure over 18 months earlier - and failed comprehensively. Then just 4 months later, I saw THAT VERY SAME PERSON, dressed up in their smart uniform, as I breezed through Cranfield, passing my IR test. They had just started their flying, and was hoping to go solo soon!

Integrated student - 2 years, committed to a total bill of over £70k and not yet solo.

Modular student - fATPL in the bag in under 8 months for just a fraction over £20k!

Now, at least Stapleford (like any decent school) would have been honest and told said student that they were wasting their time as they were unsuitable, rather than keep on cashing those cheques. As it was, this particular student was pissing away well over £70k with all their extra tuition, exam fees in quadruplicate, and extra accommodation and flying costs, all to chase a dream which was clearly well beyond their grasp.

I really don't know how you can generalise in such broad terms when discussing different types of school. Thankfully, most potential students will be able to see through your extremely biased opinions, and make informed choices unaffected by your bitterness towards modular schools.

Your misinformed and jingoistic slating of modular schools in favour of integrated does your credibility no favours!

You have surprised me, potkettleblack.

PM

[Hour Builder]

Now I agree with that! Better put then I could have said!

I'm to be starting with Stapleford in the next few weeks, and having done a few hours with them preiously, to check out their school, facilities and staff, its a fantastic place to do the CPL/IR and I cannot wait.

HB

[potkettleblack]

Ah now now, don't start reading between the lines and degenerating this into the usual flaming session. The above was simply my experiences at a PPL school that shall remain nameless. Spend enough time in the private flying forum and you will see that they are typical of your average small flying club across the country. I am glad to say that when I went on to do my CPL and IR it was a huge step up in terms of quality with a dedicated instructor and briefings etc. You did well in going to Stapleford you avoided a lot of tardy outfits.

PS: I am modular and wouldn't change it so don't go jumping to opinions.

[pilotmike]

I didn't 'read between any lines'; I simply read what you wrote, and found it to be completely biased and lacking in any factual basis.

As you were specifically comparing and contrasting integrated schools vs 'other options', it is rather disingenuous to use your bad experience of one nameless PPL school as a basis to pitch modular CPL schools against integrated schools. Thats all, no flame war intended - simply correcting unfair comparisons.

We're all entitled to our opinions, and I didn't 'jump' to mine as you suggest.

HB - you've chosen well in Stapleford. If you have any ability and drive, you'll achieve everything that you could have done at an integrated school, in less time, and for significantly less cost. The uniform (or lack thereof) makes jack all difference to the end result! Good luck.

PM

[Vone Rotate]

I had my PPL skills test this month and my examiner told me to log the time as P/us and put the 2 hrs 10 mins in the P1 column. He also said when I do a check ride on an A/C and night qual etc I should log it the same way. Is this correct and am I right in thinking this time counts towards my 100 hrs P1 for my CPL??:bored:
Thanks people.....

[pilotmike]

Dual 'lesson' time is logged as Pu/t in 'Dual' P2 column

Tests are logged as P1/s in 'In Command' P1 column

Solo time is logged as P1 in 'In Command' P1 column

P1/s time is counted as P1 time, so it does count towards P1 hours for any purpose.

PM

[Vone Rotate]

Thanks PM....I really should pick up that chunky LASORS book now and then!!

[BEagle]

I understood that this 'SPIC' thing came as a result of pressure from a certain school not far from Blenheim Palace, who couldn't compete commercially due to the number of days when their non-IR holding students woudn't be able to fly due to weather?

So, weather a bit marginal? Put a FI in the other seat who isn't supposed to do anything unless the weather goes outside the student's limits, wherupon it becomes Pu/t time. Of course, that happens.....not a lot.

[expedite08]

Many thanks for the responses. At the end of the day I just found it odd thats all.

Pilotmike: You said it all in your post really. Ive heard stories of that same thing happening too. These guys are spoon fed under a pressured enviornment, (add on the pressure of 60-80k too)!

It just concerns me that there are people in the RHS of an airliner with people in the back, with very little experience! but with the know it all attitude that a 'big integrated school provides'. A recipie for disater I think.

[bobster1]

It just concerns me that there are people in the RHS of an airliner with people in the back, with very little experience! but with the know it all attitude that a 'big integrated school provides'. A recipie for disater I think.

Come on, Integrated schools have been churning out qualified pilots for decades, and how many UK registered aircraft disasters can you think of that has been blamed on the fact that the F/O had no real P1 time?
Not really a recipe for disaster is it. By the way Im modular, and I dont think having a few extra hours plodding around at 90 kts puts me beyond the disaster line and into the safer more qualified pilot area, and the airlines dont take chances, if you can get through your training what ever way you do it, then a type rating, you are of a sufficient standard!
Listening to guys who have been flying as Cpts for years, eveyday is still a school day, there wil always be something to learn or a new experiance to learn from, you cant reach a point were you know everything about everything.

[Blinkz]

Some of you guys really have your heads up where the sun doesn't shine. How is that you guys can have such biased views against integrated and for modular routes?? Why is it that you care? Very simply they are two routes. One will suit some people, the other will suit other people. Its that simple. BOTH are good routes, BOTH teach you how to fly. BOTH have advantages and disadvantages to them. Just because you went modular doesn't make your route better in ANY way at all. Why can you not just accept that we are all pilots and have the commeradery between us all. We all love flying, we all have the same dream. In my experience hardly any integrated people hold anything against modular people (in fact most of us have a huge amount of respect for you! I know that I would struggle trying to do the ATPL exams whilst holding down a full-time job!) and yet the modular people seem to hold us integrated people in such contempt, just because we choose to go to a school different to your own.

Why can't we all act like adults and just get a long? :ugh:

Good luck to EVERYONE embarking on a professional flight career! :ok: