What would keep you in?

[shawtarce]

There are many many things wrong with the system, and most have been covered to death on this site, but what would it take to keep you in?

There are those of us who have already left, there are those that have PVR'd, there are those who are too close to our pension point to throw it all away for the sake of another couple of years.

I'm sure that throwing money at the problem, in the guise of better pay and retention incentives would retain a few, but not many.

Is the only solution to let all the disillusioned leave and to replace them all with wide eyed excited new recruits?

There are a few things that would keep me in for a few more years, but what about you?

[Grimweasel]

Well, for starters how about a housing allowance like the US Forces get? They can even use it to pay their mortgages. Then tax free pay when serving our country overseas and ops. Why the hell should we pay tax when serving / fighting for the rights of ever bleeder back home so that they can live their free lives?

How about leadership from the Airships not just firefighting and management? I think Gen Dannat is a very good example, fighting for the rights of his soldiers and warning HMG that we are at breaking point..

How about a procurement system that focused less on UK / EU jobs and gave the front line equipment that is fit for purpose/timely/ and required?

And, when I go on course because the MoD have mandated me to do so, I shouldn't be charged for food etc...They should give us an allowance as with nearly all private sector companies.

And as for taking away the Married Un-accompanied Food charge..yeh, cheers another kick in the b@lls from a government that really does not give a hoot...
:ugh:

[OOpsIdiditagain]

How about getting the lump sum at the 38 point even if you decide to stay on or at option points after that. It would go some way towards the mortgage etc. A decent hike in pay after the 38 point to counter the fact that you could be drawing your pension and sitting doing nowt.

Outside of the personal I'd also like to see some honour in the leadership (the big boys). Have some of them stand up to be counted and defend our corner etc etc

Both, I agree, will never happen.

[MightyHunter AGE]

How about spreading the love and giving ground crew some financial bonuses for staying in as well for a change?

It wont be long before there will be no-one left to fix your jolly flying machines.........

[8-15fromOdium]

Well, for starters how about a housing allowance like the US Forces get?

This is a great idea. I was chatting with a USN exchange officer yesterday and she told me that they get roughly £750 per month as a housing allowance to spend as they wish, either to rent or pay a mortgage. The money for rent can be paid either to the US armed forces equivalent of DHE or go to(ward) private rental. She said this has had the added benefit of making the US Defence Housing Agency raise its game.

Such an initiative in the UK would cost around £180 mil to operate (12 *750 * 200000). I doubt this is even 0.5% of the defence budget.

I think such a move would have a massive positive effect on morale.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Nothing.........we are too far into vortex ring and the ground is looming. The only advice I am heeding is that of my Lord and Master..........'if you dont like the journey or the destination (wherever that is) get off my train'.:eek:

They can replace me with some young pup who just wants a job not a vocation before they get disinchanted, and I will go off with Mrs SLC and join my chums adding to my pension without being undervalued and chronically mis-led by my Govt.:ok:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

At the risk of covering old ground (Fitness Test twice a year et al), how about a reduction in the amount of nonsense we're all expected to do?

If my job simply involved turning up and flying, with the occasional foray overseas, I'd gladly do it for half the pay (though tax-free while OOA would be a welcome and richly-earned perk for those who spend a large part of their lives deployed). What pi$$es me off is all the nuisance involved with military life - for instance, I've just booked my PME, and it turns out that instead of one appointment (for a routine medical, this is), I need two, on separate days, one for prelims and one to see the doc. The Med Centre claims this is better as each appointment only takes a short chunk out of each day...?! Then there's the Fitness Test(s), re-signing MT Orders, re-signing Security Orders, re-signing SHEF Orders, Stn Cdr's training days, ISS, pressure to do Secondary Duties, etc etc etc backed up by the threat of a b*ll*cking if any of these currencies lapse etc - don't people have enough on their plates already?

And then there are all the rumours about doing away with MQs, the new food charges for cses etc, which make people feel that their livelihoods are being done away with...

And then there's the impression one gets that all those on high are either impotent or incompetent - I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the thread back in mid-March about a new command, called Air Command, which was apparently due to start on 1 April...someone working at High Wycombe then posted to say that he hadn't heard anything...then sure enough, with less than two weeks to go, the powers that be decided to announce their plan which was indeed due for implementation virtually overnight. Why was this major organisational change made at ridiculously short notice? If the top brass can't even arrange their own business, what hope is there that they'll look after us?

I could go on, but the bottom line (to me) is that money is not really the answer - if the RAF was properly organised and took a sincere interest in the welfare of its people, and those people then felt valued and well-treated, then those people would be much less likely to leave.

[Al R]

I'd agree with Saddam's Love Child. But what on earth ever happened to 'If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined up?'. ;)

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Al,

There jokes and theres Jokes- I joined, it has been great but now someone is royally taking the proverbial and it is us and the world that are going to suffer in the long run for it..........I am now un-joining.

[Doctor Cruces]

Al,

I took a joke for many, many years but when it became a whole pantomime, coincidentally with the end of my engagement, I opted not even to try and stay in for longer.

Been much happier since.

Doc C

[AdLib]

What SLC says, only I have just completed un-joining.

MR AdLib for a whole 5 days now and boy does it feel good.

[Union Jack]

A. A straitjacket!

Jack

PS Al - I'll respond to your old saw:'If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined up?' with another one: "This is no longer the outfit I joined to serve".

[dallas]

Absolutely nothing now, I'm sorry to say. I've made the decision and nothing will stop me going. Even the decision is liberating, knowing the absolute frustration is over soon. I truly feel sorry for those who will be trapped in the organisational wreckage, due in the near future.

[ethereal entity]

I agree with posts here that there are many things which could be done to improve our lives- and that they won't happen.

So for me, the answer would be cash - pay me £100k per year post 38, AND give me the gratuity I'd get if I left, and then I'll stay.

So I guess I'll be leaving then.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

PA Spine and the New Pension scheme :ok:

[tablet_eraser]

My PVR was confirmed today. Frankly, a £100k bonus wouldn't keep me in at this point. I feel totally let down by the organisation that I've wanted to be a part of since I was a boy. If it lived up to its promise - excitement, interesting travel, decent future prospects, variety of postings - I'd stay. With Their Airships out for themselves at the expense of the people they're supposed to look after, I'll take Loader's charming advice and get out.

I think dallas knows how I'm feeling. Absolutely bloody overjoyed to be on my way out, gutted that my sole ambition has completely wasted me, and sorry for those I'm leaving behind.

[Floater AAC]

The Devil to ice skate up to me with a holdal full of fifties and the promise that the heirachy will be visiting him at home when the time comes, for the reason of "PURE F*****G INCOMPETANCE".

Sod this for a laugh; I'm off.

[brit bus driver]

I think you'll find they are.........in droves.:ugh:

[Floater AAC]

AIDU you are clearly one of the ones going going south. And I dont mean the Stan or Iraq. Either that or you've been in 2 minutes and are still keen.

[Almost_done]

Look, if you don't like it just bugger off and moan somewhere else.
Well, if you want to look out for the morale and welfare of your troops there's a good reason for them to go!

For me I have chosen to go before I reach my 30 yr point as I can see only Stick no Carrot.

I'm sorry to leave those behind but.....at some point I must look out for myself and my family.

[trap one]

No broken promises, i.e. kit/buildings to the standard they were promised to be and available. Posting promises honoured. If bases closed then not re-opened cause some * didn't like it the way before.
No more cut backs in Planes/Bases/Manpower. i.e. give us the necessary to do the full job not just a bit of it.
No reduction in training standards and time in postings back to what they were.
No ticket punching for promotion so the well rounded but bugga all use NCO/Officer was replaced by the v experienced/qualified person that we had years ago.
No JPA, warrants, allowances etc back to pre Bett days.
Military Hospitals back in.
Bosses who stuck up for the troops/unit rather than thinking of their own career. That includes *'s resigning on mass if needed rather than rolling over for political expediency.
Tax free status when deployed on Ops (including NI, FI etc).
Civilian equivalence for Mil job. Not the extra nause of having to do an NVQ but you're SL SENGO so here is a degree in engineering management, Sgt Avionics degree in Avionics.
Proper standard of housing/messes

Nice to have
Lump sum at 22/38 point
Decent housing loans for mortagage
You want to stay in for 5 years past 22/38 have an extra 1K a year.
American standard shopping/R&R facilities
Access to Mil hospitals post retirement to self and family

Cloud Nine, or just a dedicated member of the RAF pushed too far?

[covec]

I stay in ONLY due to being financially responsible for my family and for the cameraderie of my mates - or "battle buddies" if you will..

[Yeller_Gait]

Tablet,

Intrigued to read that your PVR was confirmed today? Is that standard? I completed the paperwork and told my poster ..... and nothing since. They have not even reduced my flying pay from High to Middle rate as I expected should happen; I guess JPA will catch up eventually.

Seldom,

I took a chance and signed on for the new pension scheme, hoping that I would get offered PAS this year. Unfortunately a fcuk up at Innsworth meant that my latest ACR went AWOL and was not available for the board. The RAF's loss is my gain.

Even if I had got PAS I would think twice about staying.

Y_G

[Mad_Mark]

Yellar,

I think you'll find that when your PVR does come through you will be financially worse off than you are expecting. You will not drop from top to middle rate FP, your top rate will be halved - i.e. you will be on less than the middle rate!

MadMark!!! :mad:

[wokkameister]

How about not tasking us like its 1942, and then expecting us to adopt 'new civilian working practices'.
How about shelving all these eye catching/money saving (delete as applicable) initiatives, and let us get on with fighting all the bloody wars this government has started.
How about treating us like valued members of the community, and not a commodity or asset to be frittered away without the correct support infrastructure?
How about making some decisions in a time frame of less than a millenium, therefore leading to less speculation and uncertainty?
How about giving us the tools and support to do the job?
How about our leaders, military and government, leading by example, and not hiding behind spin and 'news management'?

Just a thought.

WM

[BEagle]

How about your leaders 'learning' a few lessons, rather than just 'identifying' them?

Might help....


...but not much. Implosion can only be a matter of time now.

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

1. Pay increase for the junior ranks to bring them up to the same pay as a fireman/police cuntsable with decreasing but incremental pay rises through the chain of command reducing to 2.5% for the top rank.
2. Cancel Pay as You Dine
3. Bring back the old housing allowance where the service gave you a sum equivalent to the sum you have saved, up to ₤7000.
4. Give us 42 days leave/year back again, with the Service paying you back for every days leave you are unable to take
5. Make flying pay and other additional pay pensionable.
6. Kill anyone who uses the words "underpinning", "fidelity", "overarching", "granularity" and "best business practises".
7. Provide medical and dental facilities to all dependants including veterans; private if necessary.
8. Bring all accommodation up to acceptable standards. Now. Immediately. Even if that means allowing those in quarters to use the yellow pages.
9. Tax free allowances for those overseas.
10. Give Headley Court and other rehab facilities an open chequebook to deal with patients

[dave_perry]

Im 16, and wanted to be a pilot all my life. Reading this, it doesn't seem to me that all good things are no more with regards to the RAF

[trap one]

There are good things, just at the moment we are not too happy and seem to want to list the improvements we want to make, would like to see.
But Mil flying is something that can never be bettered!

[ethereal entity]

Join the RAF and you will enjoy the best flying training in the world. You will meet fantastic people, make the best mates you will ever have, and experience things you never dreamed of. Then slowly, you will come to realise that you are in an organization that has no direction, and zero leadership. Air Officers only believe in what will get them promoted, and do not believe people on the front-line who tell them that everything is NOT rosy, but that there are MAJOR failings at every level. Dave, why do you think the RAF has a huge retention problem? Why are people leaving in droves for civvy street? The answer is that we are undervalued, under resourced, under equipped and under paid. JPA is an unmitigated disaster for those on ther front line (after 7 refused travel claims, I have told my boss I will sue the RAF in open court if detached again, and I mean it)

Is it worth it, compared to the monotony of a civvy flying job?

Never thought I'd say this, ever, but I'm starting to wonder if the answer is...no. it isn't.

Air Officer's patently don't care, CAS is too busy flying his new toy to care about front line rotary and multi guys, JPA is a loyalty killer, and the corporate mentality is the single most destructive attack ever launched on the RAF - and senior officers support it.

They should be ashamed - but they won't be, as long as their stats look good to the AOC.

Don't join Dave - any other advice wouyld be hypocritical.

PS. I have been in for 19 years, all as a pilot, have 5500hrs and know a little about what I'm talking about,

[covec]

What AIDU says is correct in that it is the conundrum that we who still serve face. If you do not like it - leave. But the pay is (just) good enough to stay. As is the pension.

My mates who are on Short Service Commissions and those NCA who are on 12 years Service are actively doing OU or other qualifications eg ATPLs.
It is a life style choice.

Live n breathe the Armed Forces (with a good pension IF you do to age 55 - difficult if a Para!) or do the minimum amount of time - without being killed.
The (flying) job is glamorous but the reality can be "lethal".

Allegedly, a UK Chancellor said that every pound spent on defence is a pound wasted.

That is the current climate.

[tablet_eraser]

Yeller,

I had to speak to someone in gen office, who then spoke to AIR Command to ask whether my PVR had been approved. Apparently it has, but JPA doesn't reflect the fact. A letter will be sent 'in due course' - God forbid anyone at AIR would ever want to send me a legal document as soon as it becomes valid!

Dave,

I won't say "don't join the RAF". For all my dissatisfaction, I've had superb training, had some great experiences, and made some of the best friends I've ever had. Everything you read in this thread is posted by people who are fed up after some time in the Service. Who knows; your experiences could be completely different to mine. All I'd say is this: if you want to join up, you're doing a selfless and honourable thing. Just don't go in without considering the fact that everything the AFCO tells you is told to get you in. It doesn't always turn out to be true. Whatever your decision is, best of luck.

AIDU,

I don't think that ethereal entity is on firm ground for suing the Service, but it's wholly unfair to call him spineless. Note that he never said he doesn't want to be deployed, just that he's utterly fed up with travel claims being refused. I don't think anyone can argue with that. We all know we have to do our duty wherever and whenever it's demanded of us, but if the Service isn't doing its duty by us, I think we have every right to be pi$$ed off.

As ACM Loader said, and as you're keen to repeat: If you don't like it, get out. Well, that sage advice is being taken by an increasingly large cohort of what should have been the Service's future senior officers. That's not healthy, and it's an issue that isn't being addressed adequately. When dissatisfaction - even disaffection - is this rife, it needs to be treated, because at the moment the Service's collective experience is very much at stake. Maybe you and Sir Clive should concentrate on treating the causes instead of berating the symptoms?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

How about not tasking us like its 1942, and then expecting us to adopt 'new civilian working practices'.
How about shelving all these eye catching/money saving (delete as applicable) initiatives, and let us get on with fighting all the bloody wars this government has started.
How about treating us like valued members of the community, and not a commodity or asset to be frittered away without the correct support infrastructure?
How about making some decisions in a time frame of less than a millenium, therefore leading to less speculation and uncertainty?
How about giving us the tools and support to do the job?
How about our leaders, military and government, leading by example, and not hiding behind spin and 'news management'?



:D:D:D

I think that's more or less what I was trying to say in my earlier post but the right words, as so often these days, eluded me...

[Ghostie31]

Ok, so im sitting here reading all of this and in a similar position to Dave. Where I am seriously considering a future in the RAF, albeit I am slightly older.
We all know its human nature to complain when things are bad and rarely do people come forward to say when things are good. But this is a military aircrew forum and I haven't read a single bad post about flying with the Navy. Are they doing some right that the RAF could learn from? Is this maybe where I should be focusing my thoughts on if I want to have an exciting and rewarding flying career?

Thanks

Ghostie

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Ghostie,

I'll leave the Navy guys to answer your questions in detail, but I'll hazard a guess as to why you haven't seen Navy fliers complaining on here:

1. The FAA is a much smaller outfit than the RAF => fewer people overall means fewer people unhappy (even if the percentage of unhappy people is the same as or higher than the RAF) => fewer moans on here.

2. The Navy have always spent a lot of time away from home, whereas for the RAF this is a relatively new development (Desert Shield/Storm was the beginning of it, but the major increase in op tempo was only 6 years ago); being away from home is by no means the only gripe RAF people have, but when compounded by all the other issues which people face, it adds up. The Navy, by comparison, are more used to being away - and I would guess that being on a ship would cocoon people from a lot of the nuisance of military life (Stn Cdr's training days? JPA?)

3. Bear in mind that plenty of people (well, some!) in the RAF are quite content with their lot, but those people are reluctant to write posts going on about what a great life they have out of respect for those colleagues of ours who are getting the ****ty end of the stick!

Notwithstanding the above, there may well be something that the Navy is doing right which the RAF could learn from - please tell us, o Senior Service stoics!

[mustflywillfly]

Hmmm I have always said if you want a flying career then you should join the RAF.

I said this right up until the point I joined the Navy as a pilot.

Throughout elementary training I didn't see much difference, then when I got streamed onto Helo's and RAF friends with the same scores got streamed Fast Jet I knew I had screwed up by joining the Navy!

Subsequently hated flying helo's, wasn't very good at it and am now flying a desk in Portsmouth Naval Base banging my head against a wall everyday and getting wound up with the service I belong to constantly looking for the next area it can save money in whilst creating some new monster initiative or name change for the 7th time in one year. Current Navy helo pals are bored for want of a better word.

I think all three services are being screwed left right and chelsea at the moment and all three have more beauracratic bullsheep then ever before. The "fun" just isn't there anymore.

I firmly believe that if you want to fly then try, try and try again the RAF you will end up just as disillusioned in the Navy and have more chance of being chopped (we have a tendancy to over recruit then realise we don't have enough airframes to send everyone too then chop perfectly competent people then over recruit again etc etc) You also have a much wider choice of airframe in the RAF then the Navy. I think you will find that most Navy pilots tried the RAF first too (although they will never admit it!!) so feel grateful to be flying anything!

Ok so the RAF uniform is a bit gay but well worth it if you end up in a Typhoon rather then a Sea King ASaC or worse a desk surrounded by ships. Urghhh ships.

Civvy street here I come! FlyBe next for me (at least I won't be surrounded by ships)

MFWF :}

[TonkaEngO]

A bit gay ?....How very dare you

[Wader2]

The Navy Fly? :}

If you look through other posts you will see a fair number of dark blue aviator moans too.

I was given some advice by a retired 36 year old sqn ldr when I had been in a couple of years - resign.

I was given the same advice when I joined my first operational station.

Things are in continual flux. What we like and tolerate today suddenly becomes too much tomorrow. The young starry-eyed and admiring girl friend becomes the more disenchanted wife when she remains at home. If she follows the flag she has to leave a job she might enjoy and go through endless new job interviews etc before finishing in a possibly lower paid job. The late Lord Gardener PVR'd because of his wife's job and the services expectations.

Join by all means. Don't expect too much. Certainly don't expect the system to look after you.

[Winch-control]

I'm recently out, and not a lot would have kept me in after 22yrs. The system so far eroded as it is, left no choice. The question however to my mind, is 'Who is responsible?' I believe it is directly led by self peservation of those in a position to achieve their own aim. Belitle the little and damn the rest...The guys at Group level that suck ass above have a lot to answer for! But then they will succeed!

[Ghostie31]

Can somebody explain what PVR means?

Thanks

[Ghostie31]

Havent you signed a contract though, Saying that you will stay on for X amount of years? Do you have to repay costs etc, or are their a certain amount of years you have to stay in for to be able to do this?

[BEagle]

'tis at times like this that I look at my logbooks to find out what I was doing in the RAF in the same weeks in past years:

1st 2 weeks of Sep 2002 - 5 AAR trips, 3 sim sessions, notched up my 5000 hrs VC10. Started looking into options outside as I was being worked to death with no let up in sight as 'leaders' wouldn't match assets to tasks. Couldn't believe I was actively considering PVRing.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1997 - 2 AARI training trips, 2 IRTs (Brize to Bruggen and back), 1 IRT (Brize-Brize) then a week's leave.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1992 - 19 busy trips at the UAS September Camp - lots of formation and aerobatic instruction.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1987 - 3 days (classified) training, 'American Night' on the sqn on Friday night, 3 days in Wildenrath (2 nights in a nice hotel in Wassenberg), St.Athan open day static display (weekend in a nice hotel nearby).

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1982 - 6 trips on the F4 at Wattisham, including a Q scamble.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1977 - 1 trip on the Vulcan OCU, 1 week on leave, lots of free time.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1972 - Damn all - lazing about at home all summer as a University APO on about £1300 per annum (that's about £17000 in today's money) having just bought an 18 month old secondhand MG Midget - and looking forward to a 40% pay rise as a Plt Off for my final year! Not allowed to attend September Camp as I'd already notched up 75 hours on the UAS and had got my PIFG the previous year at White Waltham and my PFB at the Summer Camp at Newton.

1st 2 weeks of Sep 1967 - learned to fly a T21 with the RAFGSA and was eagerly looking forward to my forthcoming RAF Scholarship (30 hours PPL training).

But nowadays? Bruggen, Wildenrath and Newton now gone, Wattisham full of pongos, White Waltham civvie only and St Athan no longer an RAF station. VC10 IRTs done in the simulator only, Health and Safety and the Food Police have stopped on-sgn parties, no RAF At Home displays, bugger all chance of staying in a half-decent hotel even if you do get a static display. At the bottom - no 30 hour RAF Scholarships, no aeros or formation instruction at UASs, no APOs at University, no Summer Camps away from home unit, no PIFGs, no PFBs.......

And free time??

So glad I joined when I did - and left when I did.

[tablet_eraser]

Following approval of your application you would, on release from air force service, be transferred to the reserve, unless you have completed 22 years’ service, in which case you would be discharged. In either situation you would remain liable to recall.

Not necessarily. I'm on a PC and won't be transferred to the reserves (although I'll join the RAuxAF voluntarily). Automatic transfer to the reserves only happens if you're on a SSC and haven't reached your 6 year point before requesting PVR.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

If one has made the decision to leave, PVR or other, I suggest that there's little which could be offered which would change that decision.With less than a year to my 38/16 point I was offered the "first operational Tornado Sqn" which at the time would have been the Dambusters Sqn., but it was too late, my wife and I had made our plans. As these centred on family, schooling, house purchase etc., the flattering offer of a front line flying tour from a ground tour and the prospect of flying to 50+ was far too late. If that offer had been made at my 38/16 Air Sec's interview 18 months earlier............ However it perhaps typifies MOD/RAF management skills, an area I suggest which has not improved since that time.:sad:

[Melchett01]

Wokka has come up with a pretty good list there, but I'm pretty sure the big difference between the RAF in 1942 and now is that in 1942 the majority of us would have had some leave / time off ops at some point and there would have been the assets available to get the job done. Can you imagine what Bomber Harris would have said as he looked at the tote board and realised his 1000 bomber raid was down to a couple of hundred and a few trg ac as the rest were in depth or that the IPT wouldn't authorise 617 to use Barnes Wallis' new bomb because it didn't mean the RTS???

But as for Noo Lab breaking the armed forces to meet their tasking, what do they plan on doing when they have broken us and we are no longer capable of carrying out their tasking? I think the American administration have realised that Tony's / Gordo's commitment to actually giving us the resources to do the job properly is very very thin and that we are becoming as much as a miitary liability as some of our European partners.

And just out of interest .... exactly what would an implosion of the Armed Forces look like? It's not as if we can call a lightening strike or suddenly down tools and not fight the Taleban. We refuse to do secondary duties ... so what they'll say? We can't just all walk out of the gate and not come back - just what would an imposion look like?

[Compressorstall]

We don't need to go on strike, but the thing is that we need to find some way of ensuring we get respected for what we do. There seems to be a perception in some quarters that if you are in the Armed Forces other jobs were a little 'beyond' you - I've definitely seen that amongst some of our elected representatives. Yet they are all to eager to stand up and talk about our great efforts... So what would I like?

- Respect for what we do.
- Respect for our long-suffering familes.
- Pay that really reflects the hardships, committment and loyalty we are expected to demonstrate.
- Decent kit that remains serviceable.
- Commanders who publicly say no.
- Decent infrastructure.
- Housing or a housing allowance.
- Some visible career management for the rest of us who aren't on Typhoon.

It would be a good start.

[Floater AAC]

Ah AIDU now you show you true colours. Quoting references to regs like that mean you clearly have too much time on your hands or you are a shiny arse. There is a name for people that quote things like that:


PAM HEAD (pamphlet head).:mad:

[justone26]

A future doing a job that is valued by the government and your bosses, with real career development and conditions that are not getting worse by the day. Obviously this is not going to happen, which is why my pvr went in last week. :ok:

[Horror box]

I'm afraid the whole system really is getting beyond repair, and it would have taken a huge shift to keep me in. The drive to save money has hugely devalued the individual and affected every aspect of military life, with a direct result on overall effectiveness. A once proud and great organisation, the envy of militaries throughout the world, really is a memory of the past now.
Now, I really do have to laugh, and the bull***t lasted until the end. My final move home as I was leaving my military life, ended up costing me more than if I had done it myself. The removal company broke a glass table, and told me that they would not replace it. Why, I asked? Answer - If I had been working for any other company, they would have replaced it straight away, but the MOD specifically asked not to have this cover in the contract, as it was the cheapest option. A fitting end to my military life.

[MadAxeMan]

Tony and his cronies, Gordon in particular, have done a fantastic job over the past 10 years...

of destroying my Air Force AND my country!

I now feel compelled to leave both.

In short, the MoD (and just about every other govt dept) is bankrupt (curious considering the increase in tax burden), and at a time when it needs more than just a subsistence income. It all started with the fall of the Berlin wall, and John Major's so called 'peace dividend', after that we were s©rewed.

Given an appropriate level of funding, their air-ships would not have to keep re-organising in the vein hope that we will think that something is being done. Moreover, their en-masse resignation would not change a thing, their leadership is irrelevant; although I have not been impressed by many lately.

The people are great, the jobs are interesting and rewarding, the company is pants, and has been for quite some time.

Melchett,

Want to see what an implosion looks like, stick around it is happening right now, at an RAF station near you.

Sad to want to leave, happy to be going.

(>|<)

[bayete]

If PMA had offered a 16/38 PC transfer from my SSC rather than 18/40 (while still on Pension 75) 1 1/2 years ago I would have taken it, and I told PMA that.
They wanted an extra 2... they lost 5!!:D
In the last year I could start to see the light at the end of the tunnel and its awfully hard to turn back.
So keeping me in a year ago was simple.
Now it would have to be the prospect of earning the same inside in 5 years as I could be earning outside in 5 years.
Why don't any of the FRIs target 33 year olds just about to leave on a SSC?
33 Days to go.

[tinpis]

Would the RAF like Jo Brand and some fluffy squirrels?

[occhips]

Knowing that we still have a CAS and not needing to wonder if CGS has taken over the RAF:}... being able to get hold of my deskie and being able to sort out my career as opposed to having to wait until every leap year to find out what's going on.:sad:

Knowing that somebody will actually think before we embrace PAYD and stop telling us its what we want......:p

[rej]

My first post in a long time.

All that is keeping me in after 20 and a bit years is an option point in a few years time and the fact that a PVR would mean that 'they' would take about 5% (I think that is about right) of what I have already earned. Roll on my 44th birthday.

One of my biggest regrets - not going at my 41 option point. Oh well, you live and learn.

[Prat At The Back]

Chutley,

Its tossirs like you that give the hard workers the rough end of the stick. When a task comes in I'd rather ring the guys I can rely on to just get on with it than have to deal with whinging little naffs like you. So you got stiffed by your 1st RO; thats what your 2nd RO is for, I bet you didnt go and have a chat with the 2nd RO.

I hope the powers that be see you for what you are and post you somewhere hot and sandy for a good long time.

Prat, and bragging about it too. Fcuk me.

[Op_Twenty]

"Why don't any of the FRIs target 33 year olds just about to leave on a SSC?"

Bayette is right in my opinion, this is something that needs to be looked at closely. My 12 year option comes up in just under 3 years, I've worked out pension loss from early separation from the service versus potential salary increase from the airlines and the airlines certainly makes up for it. That coupled with the lack of interest in my career from the service when I'm over 40, I would be very badly placed for an airline job if I left after 16 years (I'll be 41). United Airlines recently refused to take aircrew applications from the over 40's (subsequently overruled in US courts - but the sentiment remains) Until the RAF realises that it needs to offer a substantial financial incentive to retain aircrew post the 12 year option it will continue to lose that experience and the effect this will have on the future of the service will be severe. It's the early to mid 30's guys they need to keep, look what happened to the harrier force when guys stepped - we'll soon see this through not just one force, but the entire service. Oh, that's what 'my friend' reckons by the way.

[Melchett01]

I think as well as all the BS associated with the civilianization of the RAF, management rather than leadership, budget managers and bean-counters seemingly influencing operational decision making etc, PMA or ACOS Manning taking its collective head out of its arse and treating people like human beings rather than assets to be used until they are of no use, would have a massive impact on retention across the service.

My TRD was over 9 months ago and despite my regular polite prodding of PMA to find out what was going on, have only just got anything concrete out of the deskie. When I first spoke to him 6 months ago (I was ignored totally for the first 3 months past TRD), I emphasised that I wanted a tour to get my life back on track, sort out family and home issues and would in all honesty probably be raring to go back out on ops after that.

What does he offer? Exactly the opposite of what I asked and another front line tour on ops, with most of next year out in parts sandy. Funnily enough, I now find myself thinking about leaving early - something I never ever thought I would be thinking of. But as has been pointed out, I am just a number - or a 'cover' to use PMA's terminology and the deskies really don't care a hoot about their charges. And I am not unique in being in this situation. You want people to stay, treat us like humans and realise that we have matters to consider other than your manning plot - like wives, partners, children, ageing parents, houses, education etc etc.

Seems these days you can sacrifice all of the above for the RAF, all it will do is take with both hands then come back for more. Unfortunately for the RAF (and probably the Army & RN), people are waking up to the fact that they will be discarded by the MoD at the end of their service with no regard to the sacrifices people have made and are taking things into their own hands. Funnily enough, I'd rather have the family. friends and house to fall back on rather than an small empty flat, a few photos and a few memories when I'm 55 divored and on the RAF's scrapheap with little to show for it. Sooner PMA realise that treating people like **** is doing them no good, the better. Then people may consider staying and making a full career out of the RAF. As it is, with the numbers of people leaving early or at option & exit points, assimilation or the prospect of promotion to senior ranks is hardly a resounding endorsement - it's just that every other bugger has left and stores have a load of uniforms they need to get off its shelves:\

[Op_Twenty]

I agree, you made some really strong points there. I was thinking about putting the notion about that maybe if we all pulled in the same direction we could stem the flow of people leaving, get people back into happy hour and functions, get the work ethic back, the drive, the pride and the sense that everyday you go to work you can make a difference, feel proud about what you're doing as a team, saying: 'Ok, the Airships are only out for themselves and are more political now than military but that's fine, I won't let that affect me, I'll still do a good job with the guys I have here.'
Unfortunately when I floated the idea in the crewroom most of the guys were just finishing their third 12 hour day that week with a couple more to go, there was general apathy and the 'look after yourself 'cos the service won't' notion was well and truly set. I don't know what the answer is, and oddly, neither do our bosses. The only difference being that I don't get paid to have the answer but they do. I'll fly my jet as I'm paid to and they'll just get paid I guess. 'Blue sky thinking' - 'heads in the clouds' more like (That's what my mate said apparently)

[Looker]

I left the FAA 6 years ago for a number of reasons;

1. I could see that the MOD was a shrinking industry with lots of very bright and capable people scrambling for fewer and fewer good jobs/promotions.

2. 'Civilianisation' of the plumb shore appointments meant 'Front line first' became 'Front line every time' and this is unsustainable if married with children.

3. I joined to fly not to spend large amounts of time doing pathetic secondary duties - OIC ballet club -what the fcuk is that all about! Having done an exchange tour with the Crabs I can say they are even more anal about these things.

4. I stayed until the end of my 16 year commission in order to get the necessary CAA licenses and to get a full pension. The gratuity + savings made for a 50% deposit on a house and the pension covers the mortgage. Financially it just didn't make sense to stay.

5. I'm now a captain with a LOCO earning about the same as Captain RN.

6. Do I regret leaving? No

7. I can't think of a single thing that would have enduced me to stay a day beyond my 16. I can say financially and emotionally I'm in a better place than I would be if I'd stuck my head in the sand for another rogering by the incompetents at the Admiralty.

8. Lastly, I don't even miss my service mates. I see them in the LOCO crewroom most days!

Looker

[StopStart]

I'm with theprior...

with decent towels and shampoo etc.

decent shampoo would keep me in

:cool:

[Good Mickey]

SS,
decent shampoo would keep me in
is that because you're worth it?
GM

[Green Flash]

is that because you're worth it?

It would allow us to rise head and shoulders above the rest ......

[Melchett01]

I think Wash & Go is quite a popular choice at the moment :E

[Tracey Island]

More like 'dhobs and thin'.

[oldbloke]

t_e

Your wording in your early submission

Frankly, a £100k bonus wouldn't keep me in at this point. I feel totally let down by the organisation that I've wanted to be a part of since I was a boy. If it lived up to its promise - excitement, interesting travel, decent future prospects, variety of postings - I'd stay. With Their Airships out for themselves at the expense of the people they're supposed to look after, I'll take Loader's charming advice and get out.


is probably perfect for many others, including myself. I am leaving as "Quality of Life" is a phrase not recognised as important by the decision makers. Loader's "motivational" speeches seem to be unloading the service universally placing it in a flameout and we're losing the cream of the work force. God bless the ones who stay, it is the PMA version of the Berlin Wall and in 8-9 years time the whole of the kit that remains will not be replaced by the new stuff as it is not being procured in a timely or "Best-kit-for-the-job" manner. It doesn't help when more than a minority are operating the current stuff as if they stole it and not like they owned it themselves. Look after your machines, folks. The replacements aren't coming any time soon.:uhoh: But, most importantly, look after your selves because that's what everyone above you is doing:ok:

[spheroid]

Its not just better shampoo we should be getting,....how about some decent talcum powder? Yep, some nice perfumed talc would do the trick and make me sign on for a few more years...........

[minigundiplomat]

I'd like to see an end to aircrew retention bonuses that piss everyone else off



I'd like to see the end of an ever growing cadre of ground branch officers getting paid a Flt Lt's wage for filling a Cpl's post.

[Sospan]

And Flt Lt helo pilots getting paid for doing a Army Sgt's job. :E

[minigundiplomat]

There is merits in what you say. But I suspect you are one of the people who will be trying to fill a day counting paperclips and sending people emails to 'raise your profile'.

[Sospan]

There is merits in what you say. But I suspect you are one of the people who will be trying to fill a day counting paperclips and sending people emails to 'raise your profile'.


Not me, I am one of the many metal bashers keeping our decrepit A/C flying.

But thanks for your suspects.

[minigundiplomat]

metal bashers


Not Puma's in that case!

[Magnersdrinker]

I just been reading through this post and its interesting to here from the Aircrew and there thoughts ,they do seem to echo what us groundcrew feel in general, so for once i do sympathise for the flyers and its nice to know they are going through what we only thought as groundcrew issues. There is many a thread to say what has gone wrong and why it has,i have my own thoughts like everyone here. For pilots to go sends out a bigger message to the upper echolons than groundies leaving,we are expendable and to loose a few thousand experienced groundies is not big deal to them as they looking at paper and money , the hard line is we are struggling to get the aircraft in the air and having to work harder and more hours away and at home,this is having a knock on affect to everyone. Pilots/aircrew need hours to fly , we under pressure to provide a/c serv,sections are asked to provide more out of hours but that dont happen. These are things that the so called Murphys/chain of events that we are supposed to highlight. I just cant see any way we are going to get out of this tbh. Its easy to say yes we have to work more, I like many and the lads on our squadron have no problem with giving extra and going out the way , but everytime we do that ,we get no thanks or nothing in return and slowly this has eroded away that attitude of can do !! as far as most think now ,why should i give extra. We have nothing to give the lads anymore :{

[minigundiplomat]

Another 4 weeks off work?

[The Dodger]

I have to agree with Magners. We are all now in a sinking ship with little prospect of rescue. If the RAF was sincire in trying to keep people in. I think we would have seen changes start to happen. I am also in ground trades and I cannot beleive how short sighted the MOD are in thier attitude to manning and welfare issues. We are in trouble, there is no point trying to agrue with this, people are leaving faster than ever before as there is no incentive for them to stay. I have decided in the last month to get out:sad: I can't stand seeing the Airforce being constantly ground down and down. I constantly see the 'can do' attitude to getting jobs done, being abused more and more. This can't go on, it's wrong. I dearly still love my job, unfortunatly I can no longer do it in the Airforce. If I was to be persuaded to stay in, it would only happen if the Airforce and the other services were given a massive budget boost, in which the money would be spent by the people who understood where it was to go. Not some flashy painting to drape in some civil serpent's office in Whitehall. :mad:

[The Rocket]

What would keep me in?

Groundcrew with a decent grasp of written English would be a good start :E

[Melchett01]

Don't think I would PVR. But that has little to do with loyalty to the MOD, more to do with not that long to go to my 16/38 and a pension for the rest of my life for simply waking up in the morning.

As has been stated on numerous occasions in numerous threads over the years, the can do attitude is being abused, the good-will tank is running on fumes, leadership has been replaced by poor management, career prospects are non-existant.So when the time comes, I will hand my 1250 in and seek pastures new. But it will be with a twinge of regret.

What really really grates is that the RAF was all I ever wanted to do since I was knee high to my parents. Imagine the disappointment that I and everyone like me in that same boat now feels. What was a once proud war winning organization that kept the hoardes at bay in 1940 against the doubts of the rest of the world, that took the fight to the Nazis under Bomber Harris, that guarded our skies during the Cold War, the organization that litters the history books with barking attempts to get across the Atlantic in a Harrier GR1, taking off from St Pancras station, has now been reduced to a near bankrupt civilianized aggressive flying club, plagued by bean counters and yes men, political interference, in-fighting and an general inability to do any of the fantastic things that we used to do. What appears in the RAF News these days as the latest fantastic achievement probably wouldn't have raised an eyelid 40-50 years ago - today we deploy a Flt of ac to some god forsaken bit of desert - how many entire Air Forces did we have in god forsaken bits of desert during WW2 and the Cold War???

So I will in all likelihood go at my 16/38 - I doubt even the offer of promotion or assimilation would keep me in. I will go with regret and more than a twinge of sadness at having been sold a pup. But when I go, I will be proud of the RAF and what I have done in my time and remain loyal to the real RAF and what it stands for. At the same time, I will have nothing but contempt for the MOD and the RAF's leadership that failed to stand up for a proud fighting force in its hour of need.

[D O Guerrero]

"2. Housing Allowance and school fees for the kids without the need to make them board, along with family Bupa and dental cover."

Theprior - isn't the point of school allowance that it enables children of forces personnel to have un-interrupted education at boarding school so that they are not dragged around the globe every five minutes when one of their parents is posted? I don't think its reasonable to expect the tax-payer to stump up for kids to go to private day school - they have, after all, already payed for the state system once.
I seem to remember that families had access to the same medical facilities as service personnel? Or has that changed?

[AdanaKebab]

The Royal Air Farce can only be changed by those who have the balls to stay and change it.
Individuals at every rank can make that change happen.
Remember why you joined ... then stay, and make the change.

[Tiger_mate]

I seem to remember that families had access to the same medical facilities as service personnel? Or has that changed?

Dental cover is barely available for servicemen and has not been available for dependants for a number of years. A Doctor is available for children up until age 18 and then marching orders to a civvie pratice is given. The system is blown away when a grandchild living at home is introduced, and direct pressure is applied to take them to a civvie practice.

In summary, the medical facilities are stretched to breaking point in exactly the same way as the rest of the RAF and we are living with a second rate service that is not the fault of those at the coal face.

Regarding staying and fighting for the cause, late night buses to Glagow and options to get off come to mind. I am sure those words may haunt soemebody in the years to come.

[L1A2 discharged]

AK,
Sorry but I completely disagree with your stance, 'we' have minimal influence at the levels required to make the necessary changes.
The Royal Air Farce can only be changed by those who have the balls to stay and change it.
Individuals at every rank can make that change happen.
Remember why you joined ... then stay, and make the change.
I joined (in the late 1970s) to do as it said in the advertising:
- enjoy camaraderie - still do very much, we have some of the best people in the world at what we do across all the armed forces, despite badge loyalties sometimes clouding issues.
- enjoy free use of sports facilities - still applies but now limited by letting pitches and facilities out as moneymakers for the treasury. Also limited by working tempo.
- enjoy a challenging job, beneficial to the nation - still is much the case, just wondering if the nation much cares
- travel the world - much more limited, very few chances for 'sunshine tours'
- free travel home for leave and visits - stopped through the treasury
- good pay and prospects - not any more, not for what we regularly do (wonder if we will get a 10% rise like the MPs want :().
There is more, however, I must complete my CV and application forms .... :D

[Chicken Leg]

Nothing!

PVR'd and will be out in the spring. Can't wait!

[blogger]

With you chicken leg on that one.

PVR'ed

Handed in the id card just a few weeks till the big fat cheque arrives and the pension starts.

BoIIocks to the RAF should have left years ago before GW2 started.

[charliegolf]

DOG said it's:

so that they are not dragged around the globe every five minutes when one of their parents is posted?

Where would those 'around the globe' places be then? On average, I mean, not counting Air Attache to the Governor of the Seychelles and places like that.

CG

[Blade_blender]

The Royal Air Farce can only be changed by those who have the balls to stay and change it.
Individuals at every rank can make that change happen.
Remember why you joined ... then stay, and make the change.

Sentimental and meaningless. At least while those at the top remain ball-less in the first place!

After 21 years service, I had a great time but now glad to be in the public sector. Anyone thinking of leaving should do it.

[cornish-stormrider]

Gents, when I bailed nearly five years ago it was from a much better ship (pardon my french). Did I feel guilty about leaving my mates - yes. I don't think that will ever pass. Do I miss the fun - yes. Do I miss the bull****, yes men, Torpy and ilk, no money, no spares, living in condemmed buildings, living on a station 30 miles from where I worked etc etc etc

NO

You will always feel a twinge of regret and a harkening back to the good old days. Have faith and Jump Ship. If you all go they will have to give a big rise to get you all back......

Fly safe and remember to duck when sandy side.

Oh and to all those who would argue with me, if the military med system had looked after me properly I wouldn't now be facing spinal surgery to alleviate the pain of a f**ked back. Bitter and twisted - only till the drugs kick in.......

[D O Guerrero]

Charliegolf - where do you think they are? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[funflier44]

Just read Mechett's last post, totally agree.

I joined a proud service starry eyed in the 60s and left a demoralised one last year.

It was a death of a great service by a thousand(x10) cuts.

The mates were/are great but even after 40 years I have not missed the present day RAF and only have relief at leaving.

Best of luck to those at the coal face working against the incredible odds stacked against you

[AdanaKebab]

My previous post may sound sentimental to some, but I stand by it.

Those of you who have put in many years service will have seen the greatest changes and may have found it hard take. It is the ability of any organisation to deal with change effectively that keeps it contemporarily relevant. The efficiencies we now all deal with have hit all areas of modern life, not just the services.

Whilst it is easy to blame the Airships, who are often 'unsung' on pprune, my belief is that in general they have led well and kept the Air Force going through some difficult periods. I was particularly impressed by Loader, whether you agree with him or not, when he took the time to visit every one of his units in person to explain the new structure. I had never seen anyone higher than 1 star at my small unit before.:D

There are still posts abroad, you still have a 'free' gym, there are still reasonable allowances and we are paid well compared to our European counterparts.

If you have a reasonable problem and your Stn Cdr can't help, call your local 3star ... they are surprisingly receptive.

Otherwise crack on and make the required changes at your stn/unit/level so we can all benefit.

Me ... I'm staying in. :ok:

[occhips]

Not a great deal. Even funnier when you see that the director of JPA got a gong in the new years freebies list. I wonder if the director of PAYD for the RAF will get one as well, now don't get me started on that one.

:mad: