Finally, some balls - NJS Pilots take industrial action [Archive]

bogdantheturnipboy

28th Aug 2007, 09:02

Pass-A- Frozo,

Since you think you know everything, what do you suggest pilots should do to improve their conditions?

So standing up for yourself is selfish is it?

I do think pilots in general are a selfish bunch, not because they work together as a team and try and make things better - but because they don't!!
Many pilots will work for free, will accept conditions that are below the award and the poverty level, wont stand up to to bosses that want them to fly pieces of **** or fly illegally, wont say anything when pilots are hired over the top, wont stand up for themselves in general because they don't want to affect 'their career'. And wont stand up and say no to paying for endos.

So I think pilots working together is a rare event and I applaud them in every way. Striking is one of very few things that workers can do which will make a company pay attention. What other suggestions do you have? I have a feeling that you, Pass A Frozo have been spoon fed all your life and never really had to fight for much .

megle2

28th Aug 2007, 09:03

Any points on why working to rule isn't the better way to go.
Pass a fronzo makes a good industrial point.

Tread carefully.

greybeard

28th Aug 2007, 09:09

PAF seems to forget that labour was in power in 1989 when INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS were used as a means to created a so called solution to the Pilots disputation with their Employers.
I have dined in that restaurant in Kalbarri, extreme views such as that were the reason the matter was the watershed for the whole mess the labour market is in today.
There were two sides to that one as there are two sides to this. It is a matter of record that NJ are in breach of the AWA in existance, needs to be sorted.
Drawing the "we are tired of arguing so safety is at risk" is a rather long bow to draw, however the unresolved matters are a distraction from the real task of operating any business from both sides of the coin.
So many employers have had the run of things fo so long in the Aviation world, the lean, mean approach may have been appropriate to control conditions, NOT SO NOW. The consultative and co-operative approach from all sides will see those companies go on, the others will not survive the next year or so.
There are 100's of Pilot vacancies in Australia and indeed the world at the moment, employers will have to compete for the limited supply available.
The old strike way is in reality a no brainer these days, vote with your feet, you may change domiciles, even seats in the cockpit, but you will eat each night and sod the non negotiator Companies.
1200 people did it before in Aviation and it was the way to go, all those who blame that process for their demise are hiding behind an inability to react to the forces of the day.
:ok::ok:

Shed Dog Tosser

28th Aug 2007, 09:24

PAF, do you have a mortgage and children in private school ?.

How do you both negotiate with a company that is presently unwilling to negotiate and still pay the bills ?.

Your statements are very very ignorant of real world forces, whilst striking in this case has not been the initial approach to solving an issue, it certainly is one of the step on they way to changing an arrogant and unapproachable employer, remember Patricks Stevedores?.

Fortunately the Pilots being spoken of here have a pretty good level of respect for each other.

If you can come up with a better idea that has a positive outcome, we're all ears, otherwise tell your story walking.

lowerlobe

28th Aug 2007, 09:39

PAF as I said a strike is a last resort after all other avenues have been exhausted.

With most things in life sometimes it gets to a point when you have no alternative.

Your suggestion to quit is something that employers would like as it really achieves nothing except to maintain the status quo or worse if your conditions are deteriorating.

If we follow your idea then we would still be working 17 hours a day.However with unionism or collective bargaining there have been innumerable benefits in working conditions.

If I remember you are in the military.If that is so then would you suggest a course of action that we walk away from every conflict with our hands in the air and quit?

Mr. Hat

28th Aug 2007, 09:55

Every dog has his day... strike or no strike labour liberal whatever.

What goes around comes around and employers that treat employees with respect will in the end retain staff.

This game will be one by those that can retain staff.
Takes a lot to train new comers. Only takes 5 minutes to "QUIT".

Roger Copy Ta

28th Aug 2007, 10:04

LL that military analogy is just ridiculous.

Otherwise a good debate. Unfortunately the shortage isn't severe enough for them to all be able to quit and find another job so easily. But then look at what's happening at Rex...

How bad are the conditions at Qlink? Any truth in the statement that NJS are breaching the AWA?

greybeard

28th Aug 2007, 10:11

Maybe QUIT is a bit strong.

Shall we say, "review the situation and consider a more appropriate professional position"

I may be confused between AWA and Individual, really don't care for a definition discussion. I have been on Individual Contracts since '89, some being identical to between 15 and 39 others at the same place.
I signed, when in two cases they didn't hold their end of it, I took the above option.
I wish ALL parties a measure of success in the NJ mess, many previous peers and associates are involved.
There are close to 20 vacancies in another very similar Operator in Perth at the moment which was my perhaps obscure point.
I shall stumble aong, Simulating my way around the various and diverse Cultures and Companies who are considerate enough to use my current employer as a provider of Training.

:ok:

lowerlobe

28th Aug 2007, 11:04

the least flexible party loses in negotiations.

No completely wrong....As in any conflict the party that feels it has more to lose will lose.In other words the party with the most power will win and that is why collective bargaining is the only way for workers to negotiate with an employer.Especially with a large employer as an airline.

By the way if you think the Libs are more effective at the economy why are the interest rates going up in an election year?

If they were in control of the economy the last thing that would happen is for the interest rates to go up before an election.Howard has been very lucky as has Darth...up to now.

By the way Roger Copy Ta..I don't share your thoughts with my analogy.PAF has suggested that if you don't like your situation then you can always quit...

With that sort of thinking marriages for a start would be very temporary.

Shed Dog Tosser

28th Aug 2007, 11:04

Don't make eye contact folks and keep walking.

Angle of Attack

28th Aug 2007, 11:09

LOL I had a laugh! PAF is reminding me of the sinking Johnny Howard teams deperate last gasps of power! Yay keep it up mate!!

If I am pi$$ed off with an employer quiting is the easy way out, I will Strike and make them bleed mate, with every ounce because I CAN! Whether its legal or not just rub it in and put salt on top! Well live in a democracy and when people are fed up they will make them BLEED! And you can carp on about "Oh its not within this law or that law!! " but goddam if everyone acted within the laws of their governments throughout the last few centuries imagine where we would be now!! Think about it wet ears!! Without workers the world population would die! Without companies we would still live!

Probably youll say "Oh well I welcome a debate about economics 101 "etc, but WTF if i want to strike I will and there is nothing you or your big business chums can do about it. Think about IT!

swab

28th Aug 2007, 11:49

Give it a rest buddy.
If NJS can't afford to pay its' pilots then they shouldn't be in business. They "negotiated" the contract terms with QF for the 717's and basically either got their maths wrong or were undercutting everyone else to get the contract. Why should everyone else (i.e. the Pilot/FA group) KEEP HAVING TO PAY for this mismanagement. Why don't the mismanagers take a pay cut for their role in this whole sorry affair. Why should the Pilots/FA's Give A Rat's about Kalbarri. If they go out on strike good on'em. More power to them. Why should any of us be beholden to any organisations who really don't respect us as individuals, let alone as a group.
Getting shafted has been going on far too long and now its pay day. :E
BEST OF LUCK TO THE NJS CREW! :D

Boney

28th Aug 2007, 11:50

Can I suggest the guys/girls at NJS do up a 1 page letter to be given to all the pax if they do end taking industial action. It could explain the following but in much more customer friendly terms.

Cost of training
50K born by the pilot, plus study.

Salaries in GA
1st yr 25K
2nd yr 30K .....

After 5 yrs, get into NJS and earn .......... as 717 FO (insert amount here)

Many pax will be surprised that the pay structure on any mine flt in this country runs in this order.

Average Mine worker
Capt of the aircraft, 75% of the above
FO, half of the above
FA's, a fifth of the above.

PAF, when you are paid to train and don't have to pay a cent for it, does not take long to get a return on your personal investment does it.

The rest of us are expecting a return on our investment if we live to 148 if the the medical holds up.

swab

28th Aug 2007, 11:59

"Strike = Selfish = everyone hates you. "
You poor dear, such an inferiority complex..:ooh:

Boney

28th Aug 2007, 12:09

PAF

Don't want to quit my job - I love it, it is just pathetic that my 20yr old flat mate who has just finished an apprenticeship earns the same as I do.

He does not even work at the mines. If he did (and is planning to), he would be making double.

And no, I don't work for NJS, just a Saab driver wishing to be treated like a normal human being in Johhnys New Australis.

five dogs

28th Aug 2007, 12:25

Frozo

You need to better edjumicate yourself before wishing unemployment on a group.

NJS pilots aren't taking strike action, they're going through the motions to take industrial action because their employer won't talk to them.

Pilots aren't looking to up the cost of a ticket because of a pay rise, they're looking to keep their current wage level and not go backwards. Never having received a real pay rise, the co has offered to remove the annual CPI adjustment in favour of a flat 2% pa, and want to tie the pilots in for 5 years!

They're looking at reasonable, negotiated bonds, instead of new hires having to agree to B Scale pay, plus fund part of their endorsement, plus be bonded for the whole lot. Hell, the co even charged the initial tranche of 717 pilots half the endorsement cost, promised the process wouldn't be extended, then tried to reneg.

How about pulling guys from their endorsement check briefing to harrangue them into signing an AWA or have their check cancelled.

Perhaps you are edjumicated, and really live in ADL, not SYD! :=

Boney

28th Aug 2007, 12:28

I must apologise, I was thinking that flying a Regional Airliner was a profession - obviously not, just an unskilled job, as shoiwn on my payslip.

And by the way, can you ask ya mate hoWARd when you see him next - where are those weapons of mass deception?

JetRacer

28th Aug 2007, 12:29

A quiet night in for Pass-A-Frozo... :rolleyes::hmm::oh:

Checkerboard

28th Aug 2007, 12:37

PAF

Its obvious this topic has pushed a few of your buttons and Im just wondering when you will let up?

Its easy to be so opinionated when you are in the position you are in. Your military career while certainly not an easy one, is very different to the guys and girls that have struggled through their aviation career and for some after 10 or 15 years have finally made it to what should be a respectable job flying a 146 or 717. To then be treated the way they are by Cobham is nothing short of apauling. In my opinion and many others here they are only sticking up for some basic rights, and while it may not be yours we have all heard you opinion so drop it.

Until you have walked in their shoes leave your comments in your officers mess.

gav_20022002

28th Aug 2007, 12:38

PAF

an AWA is a indervidual agreement, a EBA is a group agreement. from i have been led to believe they are all on AWA's but are not allowed to negotiate their "own" AWA. it appears to be more of a take it or leave it. why have a AWa when they arent alowed to negotiate it?

Chimbu chuckles

28th Aug 2007, 12:51

So PAF if the RAAF decides tomorrow that in order for them to justify the next aircraft they need to fullfill their corporate goals you, and your other steely eyed messenger of death mates, will be required to

1/. Pay for the training yourself,
2/. take a wage cut and
3/. Sign a bond saying you will recompense the RAAF further if you decide to leave within X period,

That would be OK?

And this is not all about new employees being shown a contract and told "This is the deal...sign if you accept" this is about current employees being told your current type (which you paid for) is now redundant and we are going to be operating this new type here...so you will pay for your training, take a pay cut and sign this AWA and bond or **** off.

At what point, in your view, does employee subsidisation of the employer so they can reap greater profits for shareholders become unacceptable...if ever?

"Just vote with your feet" I hear you say...would that we all lived in your reality...some people have mortgages, children etc.

Gulf Air have just offered the staff HUGE payrises because 100+ pilots resigned after their last desultory offer...70% payrises apparently. So yes voting with your feet can have an effect if enough people do so in a short enough time frame.

And of course resigning is not illegal. So what is the difference between all the pilots withdrawing their labour by resigning en masse and them all withdrawing their labour for a period of time via strike action?

According to you one is the sign of strength of character and one of industrial sabotage....but the effects are instantly identical while in the medium term the industrial action is far less damaging.

In the case of industrial action the matter can be resolved in minutes literally...everybody resigning en masse (and standing by that decision) will destroy the company in the current pilot employment reality.

Or do you think they can find, train and deploy 100+ B717 pilots tomorrow?

Remember what happened last time all the pilots resigned?

Not one of the effected companies is still in existance.

You can bet your ar$e management remember...it wasn't so long ago that NJS was top heavy in 89ers.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

28th Aug 2007, 14:16

I'm not going to get into the NJ dispute, that's best left up to the people who are looking at the prospect of pain on both sides. I will however take umbrage at PAF's little rant of anti union vitriol.

PAF I have a couple of questions for you. Have you ever worked in any job thats non gov? Oh let me rephrase that. Have you ever worked in a non gov job post 18 years of age? Have you ever really worked? I don't mean getting treated like top gun, I mean something really down and dirty? Say underground on a mine, Fishing boat in your beloved Kalbarri, maybe refitting a 206? For someone else too, who's making big money off your work and who make sacrifices too but get to reward themselves for them. You seem to have read a bit though, which just makes you well read.

Do you like your job and expect to get paid according to your skillset without having to uproot your life? Have you ever been shafted by an employer?

Your anger and venom smacks of propaganda, which is the sort of thinking that causes the situation that has arisen. Calm down, listen and stop wanting people to leave and maybe you'd get somewhere, it's business not Defence. You NEED your employees on side, after all it is a service industry. Telling people to quit when they want better conditions is just plain rude.

Good luck to all parties and I hope some sort of outcome is gained without too much pain or polarisation.

UnderneathTheRadar

28th Aug 2007, 15:12

I'll welcome debate on the economy with anyone who wishes to because the facts are not in dispute.

Would love to - where shall we start?

Federal government sitting on a $8 billion surplus. Where did it come from? Howard/Costello's financial genius? Or the windfalls of the resources boom, fuel prices (GST on duty don't forget) etc etc.

On the flip side, the largest federal government public service ever, largest unfunded public service liability ever, flogged off all public assets worth anything, still borrowing (don't believe what uncle pete tells you) - and I'm not even going to start on the moral bankruptcy of our leadership.

My Aunt Mabel could manage this economy as well as the Liberals. If they're so crash hot then why is NSW going backwards - house prices falling, on the verge of deflation? Victoria & Tassie not far behind? Because those states don't have BHP & Rio delivering record income, employment and governent income by the fistfull. Don't get me wrong - I'm horrified by our state governments too and proclaiming that Kevin '07 is the answer - just don't try and convince me that it's all down to Johnny.

UTR

PS Johnny says that the workers have never had it better and the market will look after them. Unfortunately, he's only left one method of achieving it. NJ guys - go for it!

ScottyDoo

28th Aug 2007, 15:34

Just when they could have stood to take advantage of the NJS strike, Skippers' stingy habits have bit them in the @rse!!! Oh the irony! :E :D

Methinks Network and Maroomba will poach whatever they can,

Except most of the Conquests are grounded, aren't they? Funny timing... Almost sounds like the Rat's "TJ" has been at it again like he did with someone else's 767s a while back.

rather scratch my own eyes out with a pair of scissors than join a union

PAF, I'm sure it'll come as no surprise to you that many of the exMIL guys I fly with are amongst the most militant and pro-union you can find. Maybe your outlook will change when you can join a union.

As for your Kalbarri meat-workers, of course they were pissed off about losing their jobs. But as with your average swinging voter, these people simply went with what affected themselves most directly, and therefore they hated the idea of those pilots striking. A moot point.

Had the strike somehow proved to be a boon for them in the way like it did for GA charter, they'd have had tearful parades and ticker-tape the likes of which haven't been seen since Neil did his moon-walk.

Good on the National Debt pilots for growing a set although I think it is more a case of they have simply been pushed as far as they can be and now they are forced to stand up for themselves. I'd hardly call it militant unionism.

Oh yeah and PAF, telling these guys they shouldn't strike because it affects so many other people is noble but incredibly naieve. Show me a strike which hasn't affected others. Why aren't you up the rest of working society as well? (maybe you are but in my haste to reply, I stopped reading your posts...:p )

Erin Brockovich

28th Aug 2007, 15:52

The NJS guys couldn’t have timed it better. Politically speaking, they can’t loose. This will be a hot potato for lil Johnny and a spud gun for Red Light Kev.

In no way will the Howard government disrupt any legal industrial action prior to the election. It is a work choices disaster and highlights perfectly how the legislation is flawed. Johnny will ignore it and Kevin will exploit it.

Well done guys. Not only for sticking up for yourselves, but for the guys/girls in the future. Don’t listen to PAF. He’s just someone who should know the importance of sticking together in hard times, instead rambling from a soap box in the sheltered workshop.

You all deserve your jobs. You will all deserve a debt of gratitude from your fellow professional aviators, and possibly anyone on an AWA.

ScottyDoo

28th Aug 2007, 16:14

Speaking of the gummint, PAF, are you a Herc-Jerc?

It won't be like the glory days of '89 that some of us remember so well - hotels, mini-bars, swimming pools, movie stars - but they should be able to clear out the backlog with the help of 36 Sqn.

Even better if they can fit a Globemaster into those mining strips...

Is that why you're so worried about possible industrial action? No 5-star hotels up in the Pilbara?

:p

lowerlobe

28th Aug 2007, 20:54

PAF's entire argument is summed up with his quote...

although I'd rather scratch my own eyes out with a pair of scissors than join a union)

THis is all about his political leanings and nothing more.

His idea of 'If you don't like it then QUIT" is exactly what Howard would want.It is nothing more than a cop out.It solves and achieves nothing except to maintain the existing condition which is exactly what the company and Howard wants.

PAF's quote when asked if he likes his job was "Not overly"

So he would like to leave his job but he can't so he tells everyone else to do that.Walking is his only solution to a conflict...brilliant

Fliegenmong

28th Aug 2007, 21:43

Did Aircraft seize PAF's logon??:confused:

international hog driver

28th Aug 2007, 21:53

Erin has hit the nail on the head here.

It is going to punch smoking holes through the incumbent governments legislation and the opposition is going to milk it, no questions.

All I can say is the chooks let free a decade ago have come home to roost!

The decadence of employers in Australia, has been growing steadily stronger, it ascended with the fall out from New York and Ansett. It has been nurtured by the political climate and now those same managers have the gaul to say but its not…..us it was them.

Kids are not stupid and neither are a lot of the younger pilots. The pilots kept getting the raw end of the prawn and a lot of them have headed o/s, no progression from qlink, no step up to the big birds without being current with 3 shuttle landings, 10 IR renewals and oh you have to be under 28 any number of reasons.
The kids have seen this and basically said WTF??? Go through hell, to go bush with no planned future, oh and I have to pay for it! No thanks, I can be a garbo, chippie, plumber, lawyer, banker, glassie (maybe not), earn more, be home at night…….

And they wonder why the number of CPLs issued to Australian Citizens as plummeted faster than shares in a sub-prime mortgage lender.

QF & VB only get the numbers because they are the “Holy Grail” in oz, and shortly they too are going to have trouble. Just look at the Big Q’s expansion of the cadet program.

So chooks, come home and roost, bring it ON.

This has been brewing for a long time, I wish the NJS guys all the very best I hope that you are prepared to stick to your guns, because there are a lot of people watching what will happen, this is truly going to be a test case.

Be sure that the delegates with the help of the union have some professional PR because your gonna need it! Highlighting the difference between the salaries and training costs of pilots verse your average rig pig or mine rat in the Northwest is not going to cut it. You need to manipulate the media and play public perception as far as you can.

I wish you the very best.

Personally I am not under an EBA, AWA, or any such, I work for an employer that pays for my ratings, training, all my recruitment costs and in return I push their jets all over the world on an equal time rotation that sees me work six months a year.

Regret leaving oz. What do you think.:E

Sunfish

28th Aug 2007, 22:06

Seems like PAF is the only person who will vote for John Howard later this year.

As for industrial relations, since you have obviously never been a member of a union, or had an importunate employer try and screw you, why don't you stop talking about things you know nothing about? Your purported economic arguments are also irrelevent.

Furthermore, PAF, you are a blatent hypocrite, because, in your protected little military sandbox, you enjoy working conditions including all sorts of perks, your own legal system, a byzantine system of pay, loadings and leave conditions, and grievance settling procedures, designed to keep you content and productive, that the average Australian unionist, doesn't have, and never will have, access to.

Still get Wednesday afternoon off for sport do we?

Still get waited on in the (highly subsidised) Mess?

Retention bonuses perhaps?

Free Education opportunities?

Free medical services?

All those lovely uniforms?

Lots of little men who salute you?

Free or subsidised accommodation with 24/7 security?

I remember an exercise where the RAAf pilots didn't even stay in the field, they were apparently required to be housed in "Motel style accomodation" (thems the words) and we had to arrange to pick them up and deliver the protected little dears home every day - they didn't even eat the same food.

All those lovely pay and loadings? I have a mate of mine who transferred to Darwin recently, he drove up the West Coast in his own car, all expenses paid by my taxes and had a lovely free holiday on the way. He just loves the lifestyle, the pay, the uniforms and the work isn't too hard at all.

Translation: Pot calling kettle black.

Private Patjarr

28th Aug 2007, 22:20

As was mentioned earlier, this incident comes at quite a delicate time. It serves to highlight the issue of employers who have been exploiting the new legislation.

If Cobham have done wrong by their employees then I hope they are punished in full view of the media/public by the OWS.

All the very best to the NJS pilots with this. Im sure there are many, in the industry and government (and at least one in the military:sad:!) who have a close eye on this.

Fliegenmong

29th Aug 2007, 00:00

Well , we hope so - but lets see how much coverage it gets with such Guvmint friendly media :{

The Kavorka

29th Aug 2007, 00:48

PAF...seems like the people have spoken!!!

Do us all a favour and see if you can get yourself posted to Bagdad, i'm sure there are plenty of the sand folk waiting to meet you!!!

BAE146

29th Aug 2007, 01:04

PAF has to be a mate of one of those military dickheads in ADL.

........although I'd rather scratch my own eyes out with a pair of scissors than join a union......

Straight out of the Wazza's book "Minimum requirements for employment with NJS".

remoak

29th Aug 2007, 01:35

PAF...seems like the people have spoken!!!Nah, the mindless rabble have spoken...

This has nothing to do with mil/non-mil. It's about the common misconception that, just because you had to work hard to get where you are, you are automatically entitled to the same money as other occupational groups. If money is your motivator, go work in the mines. If you want to be a pilot, accept that pay and conditions have been deteriorating for years, not because the industry is full of incompetent managers or greedy principals, but because margins and yields have been shrinking for years as well.

It is sad that Aussies so readily adopt the '50s UK union rhetoric that the ten pound poms brought to your shores. As you brothers in '89 found, and your cousins in Ansett NZ did too, industrial action rarely achieves the stated aims.

Unlike PAF, I have belonged to a union throughout my aviation career... but the union I belong to is rarely stupid enough to support industrial action over pay. And that is in a country where pay is frequently low, where type ratings or bonds are a prerequisite for any job, and where many young, struggling pilots have mortgages and kids. The difference is that, unlike Aussie pilots apparently, they understood that they get what they signed up for. Nobody put a gun to their head and made them work for a regional airline, they made a conscious choice and they understood the financial implications. Most are only doing it in an attempt to join the big boys - in other words, there is virtually no loyalty to the company in ANY regional operation.

In the end, it comes down to simple market forces. For example, there is a serious shortage of BAe 146 pilots worldwide at the moment, so the ones that are out there are commanding contract packages way above average. Some airlines (including mine) are now looking for pilots in Oz and NZ because we simply can't find any qualified people in Europe. Offers include work permits and JAA licences issued on the basis of Oz/NZ licences. Market forces. (BTW PM me if you are 146 qualified and fancy a Euro contract...;))

PAF is right - a strike will harm everybody; the company, the travelling public, and definitely the pilots (to say nothing of the engineers, cabin crew etc who will get dragged into this). If a strike was to have the same result as, say, the Ansett NZ strike, the pilots will have cost a large number of people their jobs. And no, you cannot hang everything on the management, if you decide to strike, you bear the consequences.

If your intellect only stretches as far as "Yeah stick it to the b*stards", then you deserve all you get...

Pappa Smurf

29th Aug 2007, 01:35

Everyone seems to compare with miners.
Majority of fly in and out boys do 2912 hours per year ,12 hours a day and night.
Not a very good comparison.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

29th Aug 2007, 02:19

Remoak, thanks for calling me mindless, appreciate that. Just because I have an opinion that agrees with others I'm in a mindless rabble. I'm just one of those bleeding heart, caffe latte drinking, tree hugging lefties. Are you in management? Woops, falling into your trap.

The point that I was trying to make to PAF, although not as eloquently as I'd have liked was, let the employees decide whats best for them. I don't work for NJ so I don't know what they are up against. I do know the pilot group are not stupid, so things must be grim if they are even thinking of industrial action, not strike mind you, industrial action.

It's very easy to stand back and make mondays expert calls. When you are there your opinions are valued. When you are not, you're like me, a passenger. If you are critical of the path they have taken so be it, but until you are at that particular coalface don't be surprised if people get annoyed because they may feel you don't know all the facts. No One likes industrial action, it is not good for either party. Thanks for pointing that out PAF, I didn't realise. Now I know, baby and bathwater thing.

My question would be why is it pilots can't expect to get a decent wage with CPI and good T&C's without having to move overseas? Is Australian aviation so tight that it cannot keep up with the rest of the world? If those margins are so tight how long can they be expected to survive if things just go a little weird, not on an industrial relations front but one of the many others that affect bottom lines in aviation?

Oh and lets no bag the RAAF too much. The ex ones I know are not so narrow minded as others we've read, or as vitriolic. PAF what I was trying to point out in my post was life experience sometimes changes your perspective. Now I don't know you and you don't know me so lets just agree we've had different life experiences eh.

Fenwicksgirl

29th Aug 2007, 02:26

Remoak old chap, so you advocate, bend over stick your head in the sand and take it up the ar5e like a good ol boy??!!!
Yes margins are getting tighter but have you noticed the profits are still climbing!! Check out QF, CX, VB etc etc But alas, lets cut the pay and conditions of the workers so we can stuff our pockets with more cash/power!!!!
A company gets a union it deserves!!!
We in a profession that not that long ago was quite a respectable one. Companies have managed to degrade it to suit their profit needs. We still have to fork out all that cash for our own training, go through years of flying and more training in the hope that a major airline will look at us. It took me 9 years of hard slogging to get to one, cost me untold amount of money and i still have to keep studying, doing checks etc etc. Show me a fu%$ing miner that has to do that you weak moron!!!

lowerlobe

29th Aug 2007, 03:12

remoak posted

accept that pay and conditions have been deteriorating for years, not because the industry is full of incompetent managers or greedy principals, but because margins and yields have been shrinking for years as well.

margins and yields have been shrinking?

Tell that to the consortium that were willing to borrow billions to buy the company.If they thought it was a good thing then the margins are still OK

What about the record profit that the company recently announced?

What was that you said about shrinking margins and yields.

remoak

29th Aug 2007, 03:16

WOG

Remoak, thanks for calling me mindless, appreciate thatWasn't talking to you in particular, rather the more strident elements that contribute here...

I do know the pilot group are not stupid, so things must be grim if they are even thinking of industrial action, not strike mind you, industrial action.So answer me this. Were the Ansett NZ pilots stupid? Or the '89ers? Or maybe they were just unlucky?

If you take "industrial action", whatever form it might take, you are walking a tightrope. Good luck with that.

Most people that go on strike - oh, sorry, take "industrial action" - have absolutely no idea what effect their actions have on a business. They are truly short-term in their outlook.

Ask any British coalminer.

Fenwicksgirl

It took me 9 years of hard slogging to get to one, cost me untold amount of money and i still have to keep studying, doing checks etc etc. Show me a fu%$ing miner that has to do that you weak moron!!!And who made you do all that? Somebody holding a gun to your head? Wake up. You chose that path, now live with it. Just because you had to study a bit, the world owes you a living? Grow up.

The miner may not have to do the checks, but he does have to work in conditions that you probably couldn't handle, taking risks that you wouldn't want to. He, too, knows what he signed up for. In many ways, he is far more deserving of his reward than feckless whingers like you.

lowerlobe

Tell that to the consortium that were willing to borrow billions to buy the company.If they thought it was a good thing then the margins are still OK

Oh yeah. Right. Of course it is that simple...

not.

Over and gout

29th Aug 2007, 03:43

Kids are not stupid and neither are a lot of the younger pilots. The pilots kept getting the raw end of the prawn and a lot of them have headed o/s, no progression from qlink, no step up to the big birds without being current with 3 shuttle landings, 10 IR renewals and oh you have to be under 28 any number of reasons.
The kids have seen this and basically said WTF??? Go through hell, to go bush with no planned future, oh and I have to pay for it! No thanks, I can be a garbo, chippie, plumber, lawyer, banker, glassie (maybe not), earn more, be home at night…….

And they wonder why the number of CPLs issued to Australian Citizens as plummeted faster than shares in a sub-prime mortgage lender.

agreed:ok:

Whiskey Oscar Golf

29th Aug 2007, 03:45

Remoak, I agree that "industrial action" is not an especially constructive way to reach agreement. My question would be what other recourse do you have when you have used all other avenues to no avail?

I wasn't around the industry in 89 and wasn't directly involved in Ansett so I can't really comment on that. What I would say though is, if you have a fair enough case there should be some sort of independent judgement who can sort this stuff before it gets destructive.

NJ pilots will do what they think is best, knowing full well the outcomes of their call. They seem like a pretty frustrated bunch and they understand the only way they'll acheive some sort of acceptable outcome is if they hang together and don't destroy the company. They like their jobs which is why they are trying to get decent conditions. It would seem dialogue would go some way in solving this, that and the doom and gloom to not be played up so much. The politics of fear raises its ugly head again.

lowerlobe

29th Aug 2007, 03:50

remoak...You did not answer my question.

Why would the consortium want to borrow billions to buy the company if the margins and yields were not there or decreasing?

Why did the company make a record profit and by the looks of it an even larger one next year if the margins and yields were not there?

Toolman101

29th Aug 2007, 05:02

PAF is right - a strike will harm everybody; the company, the travelling public, and definitely the pilots (to say nothing of the engineers, cabin crew etc who will get dragged into this). If a strike was to have the same result as, say, the Ansett NZ strike, the pilots will have cost a large number of people their jobs. And no, you cannot hang everything on the management, if you decide to strike, you bear the consequences.

Yes Remoak, this will effect those mentioned, however I believe those groups are also in dispute with the management about the company Future Horizons plan, and are 100% behind the PG.:ok:

Fenwicksgirl

29th Aug 2007, 05:12

Remoak.
What do you say to the miners who go on strike??? How about all those Chinese miners hey, why should they strike and whinge to their companies?? You would argue that they should be happy with their lot, because think of all those slum dwellers in India...and so on and so on. When do the workers of the world in your eyes have the right to stand up and say enough is enough. Why should the big wigs get all the profits, why should all the workers have to pay??? To stand up to these people is in your eyes whinging and that we should not put our companies out.
Are you a full paying member of the communist party, because that is what you are advocating!!

hoffer

29th Aug 2007, 06:15

Well the decision to apply for a secrete ballot was over whelming and rightly so ,they did not have much choice .it is the only thing left for workers to do.However there are no garantee in this business with 3rd parties being able to  stick there shrek like noses in in there rights to even hold the ballot ..But the pressure is on the Bosses and the fear of the unknown, that  is what the TWU has up its sleve.They are packing there bags and are meeting the TWU as early as next week to try to settle the matter or more so to prevent any kind of action and more so no more bad press .

Shed Dog Tosser

29th Aug 2007, 06:29

Bravo Zulu's, Hoffer and the TWU ( your spelling still sucks :) ).

After this the TWU should have an information night at a local pub, suggest a Friday night 6-7pm. Get up and tell the rest of the infidels what you are offering.

No doubt some of the staff from the "other operators" would be interested to see what you can do for them.

hoffer

29th Aug 2007, 09:00

Sorry about the spelling but ya get the drift

VH-UFO

29th Aug 2007, 12:07

Fenwicksgirl,

Im one of those fu%$ing miners, undeserving lowlife pricks we are who are well beneath your highness.

How DARE we get paid a decent wage for working away from our families for two thirds of the year, breathing in all that fine silica/asbestosis air particles and red dust, missing all your kids birthdays, sports carnivals, wedding anniversaries etc etc etc.

Do you get breathtested everyday?

How about drug tested regularly?

And how do you know we dont get tested on the machines?

Do you work 14 days straight 13 hours a day?

Do you think we enjoy all of the above?

I tell you something, if i had a choice between getting paid 95 000+ doing what i do now, and zooming around the skies like you do with a smile on my face ENJOYING my job getting paid 75 000+, i know what i would take.

But you know what, i CHOSE that lifestyle, just like you CHOSE yours.

So stop bitching about how hard you've had it because hey, you've always got the choice to come and join me!

Now enjoy your cocktails in Kowloon tonight while i enjoy my............

RENURPP

29th Aug 2007, 12:21

I respect the job you do, and I respect the choice you make. All your points are valid.
Unfortunate if this turns into a them and us argument. It is really about AWA v CA and poor conditions.
I feel I have to point out that we, like you spend a hell of a long time away from home.
On average I spend around 20 days per month away. i.e. 10 over nights. Leaving home at around 4.30 am and arriving home 10-10.30 pm. work weeekends. The roster I am issued at the beginning of the month rarely reflects the actual days worked. Planning for anything is almost impossible. The only safe guards we have is that we can refuse to work on a day off if they give us less than 7 days notice, even then they apply pressure to do it for them and some guys feel obliged to help out.
So the sitting up there fglying around part is OK, but the 2 weeks off you get at home would be bloody nice as well. as for breathing in all that fine silica/asbestosis air particles and red dust, there are posts on here some where discussing the air we/you breathg in aircraft as well. Senate committee hearings and so on, its not all that good is the fact.:yuk:

60 mins covered itr a month or so ago as well.

Lord Flashhart

29th Aug 2007, 14:39

RRENURP,

Are you for real?
The disgusting little individuals we work from have similar back grounds to you. (Australia's finest):yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:
Waste of tax payers money, the lot of you.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It is tarring everyone with the same brush.

Not all RAAFies at NJS are/were "disgusting individuals".

PAF- You come from a closed system in the RAAF, and your views of post RAAF life are overly simplistic.

Some of the problems with NJS stem not from a bunch of pilots joining then saying to the company - HEY WE WANT MORE, it is the opposite. NJS is regularly REDUCING pay and working conditons for those currently employed, and doing so by illegally forcing people to sign AWAs under threat of further pay cuts.

Towering Q

29th Aug 2007, 15:11

breathing in all that fine silica/asbestosis air particles and red dust,

Why are you not using your PPE?:=

Now enjoy your cocktails in Kowloon tonight

I didn't realise NJS flew to Hong Kong.:confused:

SmokingHole

29th Aug 2007, 15:19

zooming around the skies like you do with a smile on my face ENJOYING my job getting paid 75 000+, i know what i would take

stop bitching about how hard you've had it

UFO, the people you see sitting up the pointy end of these machines didn't land there with a silver spoon still in the mouth. Usually this is nearing the pinnacle of a career.
Most start with an initial outlay of around $50k (try borrowing this off the bank with no job or assets). This is followed by at least 5 years of flying aircraft you would probably never set foot in. Flying in thunderstorms - no radar, 50 degree heat with no aircon, unrealistic deadlines etc. Usually in places away from family and friends for years earning jack s:mad:t while at the same time studying for the bigger licence. Sometimes with the missus and kids in toe.

The nice peice of china you see on the mantle piece was once a piece of dirt. :cool:

Think you summed us up earlier.(Dec'06)
And its the above, "look at me, look at me - I'mmmmm a P-I-L-O-T, am i not wonderful?!", attitude, the reason why everyone DOES hate your guts!

Sunfish

29th Aug 2007, 20:37

Sorry, but strikes are sometimes necessary, as are the threat of strikes.

Yes, they are destructive to all concerned, but so what?

If two parties negotiate but cannot reach a settlement, then either the management withdraws the pay (ie fires everyone) or the workers withdraw their labor (strike or quit).

And if you think management is voluntarily going to give a larger slice of the pie to employees without some form of pressure then I have a bridge to sell you.

And for those who talk about AWA's, look up the meaning of the term "assymettry of bargaining power"

remoak

29th Aug 2007, 22:57

Whiskey Oscar Golf

My question would be what other recourse do you have when you have used all other avenues to no avail?

I agree absolutely. I gave up a chance to return to NZ when Ansett NZ pilots went on strike and the management pilots were trying to recruit 146 drivers in Europe, because I wouldn't compromise their strike action - so as you can probably tell, I am not against industrial action per se. However... the Ansett pilots were all out of work shortly afterwards. In my opinion, they were poorly advised by a union that was just itching to make a stand - but the staff paid the price in the end.

NJ pilots will do what they think is best

My concern is that they WON'T do what they think is best, they will allow themselves to be persuaded by a union that may not have their best interests at heart (as has happened many times before).

lowelobe

Why would the consortium want to borrow billions to buy the company if the margins and yields were not there or decreasing?

Having been there, I can tell you that there are many, many reasons, ranging from tax advantages to asset-stripping to government or local body aid to pension funds to... well hopefully you get the picture...

Fenwicksgirl

When do the workers of the world in your eyes have the right to stand up and say enough is enough. Why should the big wigs get all the profits, why should all the workers have to pay??? To stand up to these people is in your eyes whinging and that we should not put our companies out.
Are you a full paying member of the communist party, because that is what you are advocating!!

You clearly know as little about politics as you do about anything else. What YOU are suggesting is communism, what you THINK I am suggesting is the reverse. Except that you haven't even managed to figure out what I am talking about yet. I really do hope that they never let you take command of aircraft, you would obviously have trouble working out which way is up and which way is down...

And you may want to research the difference between communism and socialism.

Sunfish

Yes, they are destructive to all concerned, but so what?

You are obviously trying to wind us up, because nobody could possibly say something that stupid intentionally... :rolleyes:

lowerlobe

29th Aug 2007, 23:50

Remoak..You only partially answered my question and then only in an abstract way.

If the margins were not there I hardly doubt that an organisation would want to borrow around 80% of the total amount if they thought the business was not a good one or that it's potential to earn was decreasing.

Even if they had the intention of splitting the company up,they would have trouble selling parts if the margins and profits were on the downward slide.

Secondly,If the margins are decreasing then why did QF make a record profit.It also appears that next years profit will be even larger so the idea that the margins are decreasing does not seem to hold up.

Mr. Hat

30th Aug 2007, 00:49

UFO there is a bit more to it than just "zooming around the skies". Just as you point out its not fair for a pilot to judge his mine employee passenger the opposite is also true.

The NJS people are trying to make a living like all of us. They are not asking for much - just for people to sit down and negotiate in a fair manner. They have been ignored and a last resort the 'S' word has come out.

Having been in the industry for a while i can also point out that they are hardly snobs getting around in flash cars. Just everyday mums and dads trying to do their best for themselves and their families.

The old "you chose your career so now you should put up with anything and everything" that has popped up on this forum about a million times is a silly and lazy answer to a debate. Infact for each and every career you could say the same. Its actually human nature to want to improve conditions and situation and any company worth their salt will work with their employees in doing so.

Then there is the 'LEAVE' if you don't like it mentality. Well do you know what? People do and their are a few employers out their that are now clutching at straws trying to stop people doing just that as their entire experience base has just disappeared. Nothing to do with young kid that would have left for a jet job anyway, I'm talking about the blokes that have been there and done that and really were not interested in starting up learning new procedures and types.

And do you know what it all came down to? Not money but RESPECT.

Rant over. Good day.

cunninglinguist

30th Aug 2007, 01:32

I tell you something, if i had a choice between getting paid 95 000+ doing what i do now, and zooming around the skies like you do with a smile on my face ENJOYING my job getting paid 75 000+, i know what i would take.

You do have a choice UFO, for a mere 70-90K of that 95k or however much you earn, you can become a commercial pilot. After spending that 70-90K you can go and live in an outback community somewhere most people have never heard of ( or if really lucky, Karratha, Kunnunnara etc ) and earn 35-40K for maybe a year or 2 then go and work for someone like skippers ( whilst taking a pay cut to " further " your career ) and then in another 1-2 years you can apply to NJS, Virgin Blue, Jetstar or Qantas, if successful with any of those you could start earning between 60-100K, depending on which one, and you wonder why NJS pilots are bitching?
But my whole point is, if you want to zoom around the sky
with a smile on your face, you can, there is absolutely nothing stopping you ( don,t say edumucation, I scraped thru year 11 )
Oops, nearly forgot, a position with NJS, VB, Jetstar will COST you 15-35K, thats right you have to buy your way into a job.

Usually this is nearing the pinnacle of a career.

If NJS is the pinnacle of a career, that is really sad :{

Lodown

30th Aug 2007, 01:57

I can't remember whether it was the late 60's or early 70's but there was a huge strike in the mines at Mt Isa. Turns out that it would have cost management an enormous amount to stand people down while they went through an equipment upgrade. So, as the story goes, the strike was formented, no one was paid and the equipment was changed out and the workers were screwed a couple of weeks pay.

The reason I say this is that it almost appears that a strike is being encouraged at NJS.

And on a separate subject, in this case pilot seniority really works well for the managers by making it very difficult for senior crew to change jobs.

27/09

30th Aug 2007, 02:10

remoak

the Ansett pilots were all out of work shortly afterwards. In my opinion, they were poorly advised by a union that was just itching to make a stand - but the staff paid the price in the end.

I'm not sure that Ansett New Zealand is a good example to quote for your argument here. There were a lot of "politics" being played in the background and to blame the pilots strike for Ansett New Zealand's demise is being simplistic in the extreme. It was a convenient excuse for the demise.

Yes, the pilots were probably being paid above the going rate, but that situation was brought about by Ansett management when Ansett New Zealand was set up after the aquisition of Newmans Air and the Aussie pay rates were imported along with the Aussie pilots to expand the operation.

There were much bigger issues regarding the profitability of Ansett New Zealand e.g. the outrageously high lease payments being made to the parent company for the 146's.

Toluene Diisocyanate

30th Aug 2007, 03:17

Then there is the 'LEAVE' if you don't like it mentality.

Qantaslink's management style to a tee. Pilots are taking managements sage advice to the letter. Massive resignations in the tube. Even senior checkies have had enough and lookin to move on. Rex 2 in the making.
Serve them right:=

WynSock

30th Aug 2007, 03:49

"Leave if you don't like it?"

OK, OK, we are leaving. :)

You fly your aeroplanes, accountant/middle manager/CEO. :E

It's easy-peasy. :rolleyes:

sumtingwong

30th Aug 2007, 05:09

And do you know what it all came down to? Not money but RESPECT

Got it in one Mr Hat!:D

Capn Bloggs

30th Aug 2007, 07:44

Lodown,

pilot seniority really works well for the managers by making it very difficult for senior crew to change jobs.

True, but it also works the other way, because if there was no seniority in the industry, there would be on impediment to all the senior pilots leaving and absolutely stuffing the organisation. Look at the engineer movements around the industry. If the pilots did the same thing, I suspect that they would all still have jobs, and outfits like NJS would have no aeroplanes flying because evrybody would have left to go down the road. Can you imagine what would happen when DJ starts up it's Perth base with direct entry commands?

So managers had better appreciate the seniority system.

joysticks

30th Aug 2007, 08:11

Hello to those young PPLs and CPLs who read these pages to see what is happening in the Aussie Airline world.
Re PAF's posts.
- Please do not consider PAF's view on life to represent that of a modern Professional Pilot.
- His attitude seems to be one of unmitigated greed and arrogance directed at the expense of whoever disagrees with him or has a different point of view.
- He shows by his language and lack of empathy towards others views to have no knowledge of Crew Resource Management techniques (Airlines consider CRM training essential these days ) - if he has attended a course he must have slept through it.
- And finally, I hope you never, ever have to share a cockpit with him.

Capt Claret

30th Aug 2007, 08:47

Frozo,

Why do you ignore the fact that we're not wanting to strike for more money, we're trying to avoid being paid LESS! :ugh:

megle2

30th Aug 2007, 08:52

Pass a Frozo

Hang in there. Contrary to what all the others think I still think your on the right track.

TWU, Graham Richardson's book sums it up " What ever it takes ".
Doesn't matter who you hurt or whether its right.

I thought one the others with their strong views could answer my previous post re what was wrong with working to rules. It would be an effective industrial tool rather than be tools yourselves.

Don't get sucked in. Tread carefully.

Now I will settle back and wait for the flack.

Shed Dog Tosser

30th Aug 2007, 09:06

pilot an international rescue mission in a C-130 Hercules

BBBBBBaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaahah hhhhaaaaaahhhh !!!!!.

This guy must be related to Winstun.

cunninglinguist

30th Aug 2007, 09:07

So PAF, after 15 years or so of getting nowhere in NJS by doing the right thing, what do you suggest the NJS pilots do :confused:
Having " been there, done that " with this mob, I can tell you without any shadow of a doubt that the CIA do not listen to reason.
It is always the standard reply " no money in this contract "

So, you seem to be full of great ideas, how does one better ones lot without any industrial action in this instance :confused:

Valdiviano

30th Aug 2007, 10:00

DEAR OHHHHH DEAR, PILOTS AGAINST PILOTS, AND THE STRIKE HAS NOT EVEN STARTED YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As an ex airline pilot (and ending up on my ass) and ex employer, I NEVER GAVE THEM (my valued staff) THE OPORTUNITY TO HURT ME,...........JUST BY LOOKING, AFTER THEM!!!!!!!!!!!.
YOU CAN HURT ME, BY WORKING TO RULES AND NOT LOOKING AFTER MY CUSTOMERS.
IF YOU STRIKE EVERYBODY HATES YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOBODY WILL UNDERSTAND YOU, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR ARGUMENT.
TIMES HAVE CHANGED, USE YOUR BRAINS.
P. S. Retired at 52, thanks to my employees looking after ME and MY customers.

Mr. Hat

30th Aug 2007, 10:19

Works a treat doesn't it Valdiviano. I bet you listened to them and spoke to them as you wished to be spoken to.

I heard that at South West in the US the pilots chipped in to buy the CEO a Harley. There is a book on it.

yowie

30th Aug 2007, 10:31

PAF,
That has sort of been tried, too hard to get around the fact that any sort of group organised action, without the protection of "protected industrial action", will have an exteremely negative affect. Dont underestimate that the CIA are sitting back waiting for the tiniest slip-up. So, as cun said, how would you like these guys and gals handle the issue of a aggressive, bullying, non AWA complying management, who have had numerous opportunities to easily rectify the problems that they created?:ugh:

Valdiviano

30th Aug 2007, 10:38

Exactly Mr Hat, spoke to my customers and staff the WAY I WOULD LIKE TO BE SPOKEN TO and TREATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had no shareholders to contend with BUT MY ASS and LIFE SAVINGS where on THE LINE.

Roger Copy Ta

30th Aug 2007, 11:18

Hmmm, choosing the lesser of two evils. Pilots all want the same thing but disagree on how to go about getting it. It is always difficult trying to make the most of a bad situation, which is exactly what this is. The problem seems to be that every option is lose-lose.

An important point that I feel needs to be reiterated is that the PG are only trying to maintain their **** pay/conditions; ie, prevent their **** pay/conditions from getting even ****tier than the already **** pay/conditions rather than improve on the **** pay/conditions. There is a significant difference.

Bottom line seems to be that the company sucks to work for. That won’t change strike or no strike.

Frozo has some good points and I completely understand the principle he is standing by. But there also has to come a time when the gloves come off and it becomes no-holds-barred. Yes it’s lose-lose and everyone will hate you, but it ain’t a popularity contest. Striking is also a matter of principle and at the end of the day their only trying to make the best of a very bad situation.

Good luck boys and girls.

R.Cruizo

30th Aug 2007, 11:18

Guys/Gals,
Ignore this Pass-a -Frozo guy. He is just trying trying to attract attention and trying to make himself feel important. Let him play by himself.

Concentrate on the weeks ahead.

RC

remoak

30th Aug 2007, 11:42

lowerlobe

If the margins were not there I hardly doubt that an organisation would want to borrow around 80% of the total amount if they thought the business was not a good one or that it's potential to earn was decreasing.

OK then look at it another way... if the business was good and margins were high, why would the company be for sale in the first place?

If you look at recent acquisitions (say the flybe acquisition of BA Cityflyer, or the Air France acquistion of Cityjet), you will see that the purchaser radically altered the model and structure of the companies they took over. All they really kept was the staff and some of the routes in one case, and the staff and airframes in the other. An organisation looks at the potential revenues when evaluating a purchase, and often those revenues are nonexistent in the company they are looking at.

Secondly,If the margins are decreasing then why did QF make a record profit.It also appears that next years profit will be even larger so the idea that the margins are decreasing does not seem to hold up.

You have to look beyond the balance sheet and see exactly where those profits are coming from. Unless you know the true position with regard to fleet and airport slot transactions, it is hard to be certain how much of that profit is down to margins and yields. More to the point, increasing pax numbers + increasing peripheral sales will easily overcome decreasing margins. Just ask Easyjet, Ryanair or Virgin about that...

27/09

There were a lot of "politics" being played in the background and to blame the pilots strike for Ansett New Zealand's demise is being simplistic in the extreme.

There is ALWAYS a lot of politics in these situations... however, the fact remains that if the pilots hadn't gone on strike, the company would not have gone down the gurgler at that time. Maybe not long afterwards, who knows, but the pilots handed those who wanted ANsett NZ out of the way, the perfect excuse to shut it down. Not smart at all. No matter what was going on in the background, the strike was the catalyst.

cunning(?)linguist

So PAF, after 15 years or so of getting nowhere in NJS by doing the right thing, what do you suggest the NJS pilots do

Move on...

It is always the standard reply " no money in this contract "

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, there really isn't any money in that contract? No, because in your cynical little world, airline management have only one reason to live - to screw pilots.

I have worked for a few companies where the management was literally holding the operation together by their fingernails. It would have been easier to have just taken their money and gone home - these guys were working 18 hour days - but they didn't, and one of the reasons was commitment to their staff (who, of course, just bitched and moaned the whole time).

Maybe NJS is like that, maybe not, but just assuming that there is an endless pot of money to fund the aspirations of 3rd level pilots is incredibly naive. Taking industrial action will not increase the size of that pot, in fact it will dramatically decrease it.

El Kabong

30th Aug 2007, 12:55

Dear PAF
How easy it must be to throw stones from your "sheltered workshop" that is a nice and cosy little government job. Your continued quotations from your school book economics course pretty much reflect what is your obviously sad lack of real life experience in the world in which most people live. Bit like someone who can tell you all about sex but has never had a girlfriend.

History is full of examples of people with your particular slant on life, Mary Antoinette being one of them - "let them eat cake" - found her a great little spot to see out her days didn't it. Actually, the poor woman was coming from a position of ignorance so maybe you have more in common with her than first appearances. (She had a cosy and cosseted government job as well)

However, lets suppose that your undoubted grasp of economic principles is actually based on experience rather than verbatim snippets gleaned from the well thumbed pages of your text, you earlier stated with some authority that "the party unwilling to be flexible during a negotiation (or words to the effect) will undoubtedly lose". Well that being the case, NJS is stuffed as it has been that particular party that has been completely and totally immovable during any negotiations for many years.

Perhaps one day you may move from your cloistered environment into a real-life situation (although I feel you have probably been saluted once to many times to do so) and perhaps then we may give some creadance to your continued verbose pomposity and never ending diatribes.

And no I dont work for NJS and I have been a conservative voter my entire voting life. However, this time will be different as I choose to make a decision based on the facts of the time rather than being mired in intransigent political dogma and stubborn adherence to a particular bias.

Feel free to "fire away" my little friend, "empty vessels make the most noise" and I would wear scorn from proudly as a badge of honour!

five dogs

30th Aug 2007, 13:20

Thursday August 30, 2007
From: XXXX XXXXXX, CEO, CFOSA (and commedian):}
To: All National Jet Pilots.
Dear all,
The purpose of this letter is to give our pilot workforce an update on activity and
current thinking in regard to your workplace agreement.
I assure you that I do not see a need for industrial action and will in good faith work
with you to avoid it. I accept that some parts (try all of it you dope)of the workforce are frustrated by slow
progress and what may seem(perception is reality you dope)to be a non-negotiable position on behalf of the
company. I commit to redress this.
I have worked to try and improve communication and engagement since taking on
the CEO role(well you have failed miserably you dope). I have been open and honest with all staff about the company’s
challenges and the realities we face in taking decisions to accept new contracts(excuse me while I throw up, back in a min). My
aim is to have a united company that understands and rises to the challenge of
changing dynamics within our industry and our niches within that industry.(pass that joint around it must be good ****. I have pissed off the negineers, that the two we have left, the pilots love me and the F/A's are just dieing for their opportunity, you dope)
Within this context I remain committed to an increase in pay that meets your
reasonable expectations, maintains commercial profitability for the business and,(does that mean Future Bleakness?)
therefore, delivers job security and advancement opportunities to you.
I acknowledge that there is a message to us with this week’s vote by a number of
pilots to authorise the TWU to apply for permission to conduct a secret ballot on
taking protected industrial action.(well done, it didn't take long did it, 2 yrs of banging heads against a wall, now lets see some action, cut the crap)
I also note that we started working with the AFAP and the National Jet Pilot Group in
May in regard to workplace agreements. I admit that we have struggled to find
effective forums to discuss, understand and then determine a practical way forward
to address concerns. I have asked XXXXX XXXXX, XXXXX XXXXX and XXXXX XXXXX to follow up their last visit to bases and to leverage the work already
undertaken and to put before pilots for their consideration a package that seeks to
address your needs.(well it had better be a CA cause we have had enough of your cronies shafting us individually)
As the package is negotiated, we must all take into account the reality of commercial
competition and market pressure to maintain our costs and services at levels that
make National Jet attractive to our customers.(we are the lowest paid pilots in Aus, we have not asked for an extra cent, hows your bank account looking??)
Please judge our proposals on their merits and I commit to respond to your feedback
in good faith.:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:
Regards,
XXXXX XXXXXXX
Chief Executive Officer
Cobham Flight Operations and Services Australia.

El Kabong

30th Aug 2007, 13:22

PAF,

You must be confused. My derision is aimed at you and your pompous and egotistical mentality, not at the author of whatever text you may be referring too.

Unfortunately you suffer from the same delusions as most university proffs who have spent a life time reading theory without worldly experience.

As for going to the dunny, its utterly and completely true that when ever i read a contribution from you that I do in-fact feel that way inclined.:)

El Kabong

30th Aug 2007, 13:25

Oh and as for the other bit, cmon then PAF, givus a little kiss then;)

Kransky

30th Aug 2007, 13:51

PAF, your a prize f'king clown. But thanks for helping to drive my thread to 7 pages and 7,500 views in just under 2.5 days.

Cheers!

ernestkgann

30th Aug 2007, 13:56

PAF it's all good but a lot of your input would be far better on the Economists Rumour network. The boys and girls of NJS have made a ''d'' and I don't think your considered opinion will change it.

Amazes me that you're so big on it. When we 'served the nation proudly', economics would have have been the last topic for discussion, except for wondering whose round it was.

El Kabong

30th Aug 2007, 14:01

Funny how anybody with an opinion contrary to your own is "uneducated" and a leftist commie bastard. Its also peculiar that you are the first to trumpet your own level of education but give reference to uni as what was it:

"We really should be pouring more money into the student union common room where leftists discuss the important topic of the day from the English Department. So tell us, is going to the toilet really a homo-erotic experience?"

I gather then that the only courses tertiary institutions should offer would be economics and belligerence then?

The more you go the more you prove yourself an ignoramus. But please be my guest, carry on, its entertaining. "Leftists, homo-eroticism", so you have a degree in politics and psychology as well. Haven't we been a busy little RAAFy! (and all at taxpayers expense too).

At risk of repetition "empty vessels make the most noise" and son, you are as bellicose as they come. (look it up in one of your text books, it may improve that much vaunted education of yours). Oh sorry forgot, ingrish is for commie fags and people who go to the dunny isn't it.

gav_20022002

30th Aug 2007, 14:07

PAF, are u a CEO by any chance? it seems to sound like it...or do u just have shares in cobham and scared of loosing your money?

Whiskey Oscar Golf

30th Aug 2007, 14:20

PAF, no offense digger I've already crossed swords with you, but couldn't you have just said "I don't agree with striking or industrial action".

Might have been easier for all of us.

Oh and not meaning to be too smart with my useless lefty arts degree, "between the idea and the reality falls the shadow". Good one to keep in mind when you're sprouting economic theory. That and the great Frank Sinatra's "Doobie Doobie Doo"

flyingfox

30th Aug 2007, 14:25

The usual biffo and sidetracking has taken over this thread. For observers who have not had dealings with NJS management, the difficulties we have might be hard to understand. This is a company that doesn't honor it's contracts with staff (see the Federal Court prosecution in train) and does not negotiate in good faith. They only offer 'take it or leave it' options. It is suggested that if we don't like the terms of employment we should just simply quit and go elsewhere. (With that attitude we would still all be serfs for the King.) NJS management have had a great run with staff accepting cuts and 'belt tightening' over the years. They happily believe that we will never say "no" to their constant maneuvers to cut costs. (This management team actually gets paid bonuses according to how far they can drive the company cost base and the salaries of staff, down.) They happily accept pay rises for shafting the staff. So for once they are getting a little reminder that their people have endured enough. This is 'market forces' at work. The 'worms' have not turned so much as 'taken a grip'. We only get a small window of opportunity to have our say under 'work choices' before committing to new contracts. What do you do when management is determined to force their own 'wish list' onto staff with no consultation whatsoever? Even the 'work choices' legislation suggests that negotiations are allowed. NJS staff know that their management doesn't negotiate. Unlike engineers, Pilots try to recognize a seniority system, which makes changing employers much harder. The Engineers have left in droves. (I can imagine how much other Pilot groups would like the idea of disgruntled NJS Pilots taking their jobs as direct entry Captains.) Changing jobs in our profession isn't as straight forward as some others may be. We have to have some ability to negotiate with our employers. If they only listen 'under pressure', then pressure it must be. Walking away from a problem never solves it. It just leaves the problem for somebody else.
Rather than critisize from outside and assume you know what the NJS pilots are doing; just take it easy and watch. Behaving as weaklings won't stop us being walked on. NJS Pilots have had enough. Each time the management team or ownership changes, we get their new upgraded agendas. These managers aren't chosen for their 'fair mindedness' and openess :ugh:. We work bloody hard for the company's bottom line. Fairness is a two sided coin which staff at NJS have always recognized.
As for my 'reputation' at some Kalbarri restauraunt, this may be the result of their own perceptions rather than any 'pilot actions'. I can eat somewhere else!

El Kabong

30th Aug 2007, 14:26

PAF,

It was never intended to be!!!!!!!! (read previous post). Sometimes things are just not as simple as "text book" theory. :ugh: At least even you will have come to that conclusion somewhere on your travels. But then again, maybe not.

Anyway, you really are boring me now so get lost. Glass of red wine is calling loudly. You on the other hand would be well advised to find a quiet spot and give yourself a "dishonorable discharge" (obviously you will be contemplating the theory of homo-eroticism while doing so), your way too uptight and may have a stroke. And if you really must, feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better. Nighty night.

flyingfox

30th Aug 2007, 14:39

By the way. NJS Pilots haven't actually taken any industrial action at all. We have just sought permission to do so as required under the 'work choices' legislation. (Some have condemned us for our thoughts!) We all hope that it will not be necessary, but the management have the ball in their court now. We await their meaningful return shot.

R.Cruizo

30th Aug 2007, 14:53

I did warn you guys. Frozo's make the most sound.

flyingfox

30th Aug 2007, 15:12

Hello Frozo. Did you read anything else in my post apart from the restauraunt final line? Your wasting my time. (Even your monicker suggests 'over consumption'.) Cool down and sober up!

Sunfish

30th Aug 2007, 21:27

PAF is a hypocrit who inhabits and enjoys the benefits of a highly regulated and "unionised" environment, yet wishes to deny the pursuit of these benefits to others by the only means available to them.

All working people have to bargain with PAF is their labor.

ITCZ

30th Aug 2007, 22:44

Right on, R Cruizo.

Guys/girls, PAF is from beyond the lunatic fringe. He is determined to not concede a single point, so why bother responding? All you do is give him another reason to post.

I'm going to clear up my screen by blocking all posts from PAF.

2p!ssed2drive

30th Aug 2007, 22:52

SUNFISH is BACK!

Where have you been mate....

Gnadenburg

31st Aug 2007, 01:36

Please don't judge one person's view or opinion as that of an entire group. In this case PAF and RAAF pilots.

Some of PAF's old squadron buddies are some of the most active, intelligent and selfless people I've met in the advancement and preservation of pilot conditions of service through what he would label "unionism".

PAF's Thatcherism is an attitude in the civilian flying world more akin to former RAF pilots than RAAF in my observations.

Good luck to the NJS peoples.

lowerlobe

31st Aug 2007, 02:27

Well,PAF you too good for me.I admit you’ve got me there…Yes,I’ll admit it …I am not a Nobel prize winner and frankly I did not realise that you were either.

Do you and the other guards at the base in Tallil go around quoting Nobel prize winners or are some of your mates there in the Iraqi branch of the Liberal party recipients on the Nobel prize lists?

It looks like after walking around with your guard dog in the heat and sand you must have some time to do a little research.It’s amazing the quality of life you have over there.

I especially like the comment from either yourself or one of your Nobel prize winning friends in the guard house at Tallil.

“ It doesn't matter if company funds are raised through equity or debt. It has no resulting change to the value of the company”

So I may not be a Nobel prize winner but are you saying that if a company’s debt level is greater than it’s assets and revenue it has no effect whatsoever on the value of the company or it’s ability to operate?

Let’s get back to the real world though and the question at hand.It was suggested that this proposed talk about possible industrial action by pilots at NJS was unfounded and the pilots could not expect more money by virtue of the fact that yields and margins are decreasing.

My thoughts about this were backed up by a speech given at the profit announcement.They were not driven by some theoretical concept by prize winning academics but were actually fact….here is a quote from the big man himself…..

“** a significant improvement in international operations and continuing improvement in domestic operations, driven by high yields and loads”

From memory the figures were around an increase in yield of around 8% with a dramatic increase in the last 6 months of the financial year.

PAF go back to the guard hut and look it up and although it looks as though you are able to do research on the net from Tallil I suggest you use spell checker as well.

Remoak..Your question…” OK then look at it another way... if the business was good and margins were high, why would the company be for sale in the first place?”

This is a question that many people have asked.The main reason is that it was a steal at $5.45 and probably for a lot more.The consortium understood that very well and were willing to borrow a huge amount.

ShockWave

31st Aug 2007, 03:04

PAF....How did a domestic airline/pilot dispute prevent international shipments of cargo, when International flights were never involved? Domestic aircraft back in 89 could not carry pallets of cargo or large quantities of fish so I don't know how they can be held responsible for a failing business. Perhaps the facts have been a bit distorted over the years.
However... back to the topic!
Industrial relations does rely on some kind of relationship between both parties and a willingness to make it work.
It appears that NJS pilots have been carrying on a one sided relationship for many years with a documented history of hard work from them and not much from their company. They are following the rules of dispute and their company refuses to interact with them.
NJS is no longer a small charter company, they are an airline and should be held accountable for their refusal to enter into meaningful discussions with their workforce.
There are strict guidelines in Australia to protect both parties and those affected by their actions so why should the workforce be made to leave the country to achieve industry standards of remuneration and work conditions?
If NJS can't pay what's required in a time of industrial prosperity then it is time for them to close up shop. There is a shortage of experienced air line personnel in Australia and world wide, NJS employees will find work elsewhere. Other airlines will pick up the contracts at prices that enable them to crew their aircraft.
If a mining company needs some experienced rock drillers and can't find any because there is a resource boom, they will pay whatever it takes to get them and make sure production continues. Simple supply and demand dictates this and people don't seem to have a problem with how much these guys earn. In fact most Australians think it's great.
So WHY do people expect pilots to be any different?
note: I am not trying to compare jobs above. It is an example of perception only.

wessex19

31st Aug 2007, 03:35

i have sat back and watched this thread develop over the last few days and may I say that Pass-A-Frozo is one of the most arrogant people I have "never" met!!! Mate, I am sure you are an intelligent, well read, travelled, educated, disciplined herc driver or whatever you fly. However, you are extremely arrogant!!! It's not a good quality to possess!! Just because other pilots think differently does not make them wrong!! Pass-A-Frozo, you make some good points however you lose it on people because of your arrogance.:=

lionelatc

31st Aug 2007, 04:19

Can anyone find out what the Cobham group's profit/loss was in the last financial year?

JetRacer

31st Aug 2007, 06:47

Courtesy: Reuters
The English financial year is the same as the calendar year. This is the 2006 result:
Cobham says 2006 underlying profit rises 9.5 pct
LONDON, March 15 (Reuters) –
British defence company Cobham Plc (COB.L: Quote, Profile, Research) posted a 9.5-percent rise in 2006 underlying pretax profit on Thursday helped by its defence electronics business.
Its underlying pretax profit of 182.9 million pounds ($351.9 million) was slightly higher than a mean forecast of 179.65 million pounds by analysts compiled by Reuters Estimates this week.
Cobham's defence electronics systems division benefited from a full year's contribution from Remec, an acquisition which Cobham completed in May 2005, analysts said.
Overall revenue was 1.016 billion pounds versus 1.09 billion a year earlier, down 6.9 percent mainly because of disposals.
Cobham makes avionics, antennas, oxygen systems, fuel pumps, defence electronics and air-to-air refuelling equipment.
:ugh::mad::{:rolleyes:
(my bolding and italics)

Capn Bloggs

31st Aug 2007, 09:27

Cobham Flt Ops (2006) revenue: $470m, trading profit $50m (employees 1758: NJS I think has about 900 or so. Australian Ops contributed $299m to revenue. Draw your own conclusions about the profit the Australian part of Cobham is making).

Source: page 6 and 55 of the 2006 Cobham Annual report on their website.

http://miranda.hemscott.com/ir/cob/pdf/2006_AnnualReport.pdf

The last words of the report on the last page:

The most important thing we build is trust

swab

31st Aug 2007, 12:51

PAF
Mate if you had half a brain you'd be dangerous! Yes, I know an oldie...BUT! a goodie! You assume that I work for NJS. Your (lack of) mental capacity doesn't allow you to comprehend that a person can't hold an opinion about the mistreatment by an organisation towards its employees unless they work for them.
Gee, really impressivethe way you 'shoot down' everyones arguments too. :ugh:

remoak

31st Aug 2007, 13:09

lowerlobe

Remoak..Your question…” OK then look at it another way... if the business was good and margins were high, why would the company be for sale in the first place?”

This is a question that many people have asked.The main reason is that it was a steal at $5.45 and probably for a lot more.The consortium understood that very well and were willing to borrow a huge amount.

Yes but WHY was it cheap? Surely you aren't suggesting that the owners of a very profitable company with good margins would deliberately sell it for a fraction of it's value? This must be a new business principle that I wasn't previously aware of... giving money away for no return.

I don't know enough about it to know for sure, but it sounds like the company was either already in trouble, or headed that way. Unless the owners were under some other financial constraint, of course.

You would think that a relatively cheap purchase price would allow some investment in staff and infrastructure...

AerocatS2A

31st Aug 2007, 13:42

lowerlobe

31st Aug 2007, 22:11

remoak.....Yes but WHY was it cheap?

You asked the question yourself and I have no intention of discussing my thoughts in a public forum...but your next question...

but it sounds like the company was either already in trouble, or headed that way.

Does the company really look like it is in trouble.......Your the only person I have heard to suggest so.

Capn Bloggs

1st Sep 2007, 01:25

Aeroscat, do some research on what Cobham Flight Ops and Services Australia is. :ok:

AerocatS2A

1st Sep 2007, 03:19

It is NJS and NAS. NAS including SAPL and various engineering contracts.

My comment stands.

Personally I think Cobham should sell NJS to someone who is actually interested in running an airline and stick with the defence/government contract side of things.

Capn Bloggs

1st Sep 2007, 03:54

Aeroscat,

My comment stands.

What comment? You asked a question.

To answer your question, yes, CFOSA does consist of NJS (Qantaslink, Charter and AAe) and NAS/Surveillance Aust. And no, I am not suggesting that NJS contributed ALL of the Australian revenue. But if you knew the relative makeup of CFOSA then you would realise that NJS would be responsible for at least half the revenue. Five Dogs CIA could verify that for us.:E

NJS is responsible for half the revenue. If it's not responsible for at least some of the profits then that is a management problem, not a piddling % or so for 200-odd pilots.

five dogs

1st Sep 2007, 04:33

The real story is that the Airline and Regional services section of COBHAM are providing the cash flow to support the introduction of the new coastwatch contract! without that SA would have SUNK.Thats why they are not tabled seperatly in the report. It wouldn't look good if SA was running at a loss. Remember last yrs report? we will rid ourselves of any unprofitable part of our business!! NOT LIKELY
I wasn't allowed to travel on the "JUNKETs" around Australia selling "FH", and I generally don't like to be seen mingling with my management calleagues in public, I simply suck up down here in Adelaide, spend time on the phone finding out gossip from DUMB pilots and using that ill found information to crucify people, much to my superiors delight.
Having said that i am aware the information (FH) was tainted. There is one big bucket of money that has been split up into lots of smaller buckets. The allocation of the size of those buckets is at best dubious. My superiors found an extra amount of $$$ to throw at SA pilots to stop them running out the door. Ask were that came from. What we all seem oblivious to is the reason they run out the door. (remember I am not in SA, simply being down here I hear whats happening) Lets hire a PR firm pay them $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to ask "why are you leaving, don't you want to help me make big bonuses?

Regional Services and Airline Services are making a truck load of money. We can't get rid of them yet, not until we have every one on AWA's minimum numbers of pilots engineers and cabin crew, READ OVERHEADS, and then when the turn over is at max, ie when the next 3 x 717 are introduced its for sale to the highest bidder, stuff the staff, bonuses are much more important. why do you think there seperating the AOC and business units?? Once we have divided the engineers and sufficient numbers have left, the business units are seperat we can place the chosen few we want in SA and the new owners can deal with whats left.

remoak

3rd Sep 2007, 00:59

lowerlobe

You asked the question yourself and I have no intention of discussing my thoughts in a public forum...but your next question...

What possible reason could you have for "not discussing it" from behind your cloak of anonymity? Other than a complete lack of knowledge on the subject?

Does the company really look like it is in trouble.......Your the only person I have heard to suggest so.

I didn't suggest that it WAS in trouble... merely that selling a company for a fraction of its real value implies a level of financial difficulty. If it was strong and in good shape, it wouldn't be cheap.

727ace

3rd Sep 2007, 06:14

lowerlobe

3rd Sep 2007, 07:43

What possible reason could you have for "not discussing it" from behind your cloak of anonymity? Other than a complete lack of knowledge on the subject?

Remoak,you cannot seriously be asking that question or are you fishing?
You can read into that whatever you want.

I didn't suggest that it WAS in trouble... merely that selling a company for a fraction of its real value implies a level of financial difficulty. If it was strong and in good shape, it wouldn't be cheap.

If you think that there is only one reason why something is sold above or below it's real value then I would suggest you also believe in the tooth fairy.

JetRacer

3rd Sep 2007, 07:55

727ace wrote
Airline and Regional Services Div to be sold !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regional services to be sold next year to a division of Jetstar called Express Ground Handling which is the division associated with Express Freighters operation ( both flight and ground crew) B717/146F,727F and non Blue tail 146's-----food for thought-----
So if i read it correctly, the 717 Qantaslink, and the 146/727 AaE will be sold and wrapped into Express Freighters. Now as only a few 146's are part of the AaE contract, and from what you have written, the remainder of Regional Services (ie mining FIFO) will remain with National Joke?
And the next question is, what does Express Freighters pay?? :ugh::rolleyes::eek:

remoak

3rd Sep 2007, 23:12

lowerlobe

Remoak,you cannot seriously be asking that question or are you fishing?
You can read into that whatever you want.

Thank you. Suspicions confirmed.

If you think that there is only one reason why something is sold above or below it's real value then I would suggest you also believe in the tooth fairy.

Silly boy. It is ALWAYS about money, pure and simple.

Zhaadum

3rd Sep 2007, 23:53

Enough of the accountants penis comparisons already! BORING!:bored:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w267/Wapilot/cbg.gif

What industrial action are the NJS pilots proposing to take now? I heard there was a meeting last week to discuss it?

Z.

five dogs

4th Sep 2007, 00:05

All we have heard down here in the crystal palace is that meetings have been held in Perth, Darwin and Cairns and to date it has been unanimous in favour of Industrial Action.:(:(
That supprised us! We thought there would be some recalcitrant’s who voted against it. We had hoped to use them. Bugger!!!:{:{

Our lord and Master has issued a press release advising all is good, no problems operations normal so please don’t be concerned. :ok::ok:

Toolman101

4th Sep 2007, 01:47

Five Dogs

Nice to know not everyone in the Dallas palace is toeing the company line and feeding the troops B******t.

Keep the rumours coming, I'm sure the NJS guys will appreciate it:ok::ok:

RENURPP

4th Sep 2007, 01:52

Regional services to be sold next year to a division of Jetstar called Express Ground Handling which is the division associated with Express Freighters operation ( both flight and ground crew) B717/146F,727F and non Blue tail 146's-----food for thought
I believe Regional services includes 146F,727F and non Blue tail 146's NOT 717's thats Airline Services.

cunninglinguist

5th Sep 2007, 01:14

Regional services to be sold next year to a division of Jetstar called Express Ground Handling which is the division associated with Express Freighters operation ( both flight and ground crew) B717/146F,727F and non Blue tail 146's-----food for thought

Hopefully not for those involved, Express freighters pay worse than NJS, and same access to QF staff benefits..................None :ooh:

rodney rude

6th Sep 2007, 04:24

Hey Guys, please please please. Just because PAF has shown himself to be a loony radical in love with worst PM in history in terms of lying, morals, fairness etc etc, please leave the rest of us ex RAAFies alone.

Sunfish, remoak et al - you have have come out and said some pretty offensive stuuff about RAAFies all becaase of one fruit tingle. "Sheltered workshop, poor little dears, subsidised this, subsidised that, spoon fed etc etc." Play the man in this case and stop beating up on the rest of us. What hypocrites you are - you are in there batting for better workers rights, respect for employees, better conditions, an honest living for a fair days work - BUT - you then turn and makes sniping attacks on RAAFies and call them all sorts of names because they happen to work for a company that does just what you are fighting for, ie pays well, subsidises housing for peoplke who move every two or three years so can't set up their own home, provides a good medical coverage, etc etc. The RAAF respects its people for their skills and efforts, perfect, but you want to beat up on the people who enjoy that respect.

And PAF, I have been RAAF for 13 years as well as ex NJS - you have no idea what you are talking about. The difference in attitudes, thinking, respect, etc are enormous. Get out and experience it for a while and then we'll see if you roll over like a frightened puppy and take the stun gun up the arse.

Fliegenmong

6th Sep 2007, 04:30

"then we'll see if you roll over like a frightened puppy and take the stun gun up the arse."

I like (in fact I fully like it):} - Can I use it?:p

Fliegenmong

6th Sep 2007, 04:53

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????? ??

Sunfish

6th Sep 2007, 05:02

Dear Rodney, no need to be rude. Nobody was knocking the poor RAAFies, what we were knocking was a certain person who enjoyed those privileges, but wished to deny the pursuit of them to others.

..Although in my day in the army they just threw us a can of bully beef and a packet of hard tack each day if we were lucky.:}

Jason Bourne

6th Sep 2007, 09:06

I think everybody needs to calm down a little.

Has the NJS Pilots considered that the AFAP has just concluded an EBA negotiation over here at Virgin.

When I was at NJS the AFAP used do pretty good deals for us.

Just a thought.

RENURPP

6th Sep 2007, 09:27

Jason,

I challange you to tell us ONE good thing the AFAP has done for NJS pilots!

your turn go ahead.

Jason Bourne

6th Sep 2007, 09:55

I don't know the specifics.

Just as I was leaving they brokered a pretty good deal with a little give and take between the former management and the Pilots for the B717.

And I think they kept some of those managers honest over the years.

Just a thought.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

6th Sep 2007, 09:59

Did Jason Bourne work for the CIA?

Just a thought.

El Kabong

6th Sep 2007, 10:19

"If you don't believe in quitting if you don't like the job (ie find something better) why did you leave??"

Geez, he's still at it :bored:

Sorry Rodney, meant no offence to anyone else other than "Capt Ahab" here!!

I reckon you probably left the RAAF to get away for that KNOB!

Hello PAF, how are you today? Turned up to bore us all with another lecture on "home economics" again? To be honest, I think that the majority would sooner have bowl surgery in the woods with a blunt stick than to sift through another of your "pearls of wisdom". But hey, what the heck, carry on regardless. :}

RENURPP

6th Sep 2007, 11:24

Just as I was leaving they brokered a pretty good deal with a little give and take between the former management and the Pilots for the B717.

And I think they kept some of those managers honest over the years.

Just a thought.

Mate there is old saying, somerthing about opening your mouth and removing all doubt...............

Get the message.

Jeeeeeeezzzzzz

remoak

6th Sep 2007, 21:28

Sunfish, remoak et al - you have have come out and said some pretty offensive stuuff about RAAFies all becaase of one fruit tingle.

Read the thread, idiot. I, for one, never said any such thing...

El Kabong

I think that the majority would sooner have bowl surgery in the woods with a blunt stick than to sift through another of your "pearls of wisdom"

Not quite sure what "bowl" surgery is, but so far PAF has made a lot more sense than any of your rantings.

It is always quite amusing to see the standard PPRuNe response to any intelligent, reasoned argument - unreasoned, unintelligent abuse. Sadly, it seems that the ability to have a reasoned debate without becoming abusive is a long-lost art in these forums (with one or two notable exceptions, of course).

I guess that aviation is now well and truly blue collar.

Sunfish

6th Sep 2007, 21:35

PAF:

Yeah I know it can be frustrating to have a "right wing" guy amongst your little leftist w*nkfest here.

Hypocrite. You enjoy all the benefits that the "left wing" have provided.

David_Webb

7th Sep 2007, 00:02

Ren Burrp,

Take it easy Tiger,

Bourne has a point the AFAP does make it tough on Managers NJSor elsewhere.

I know keeping a business viable it ain't easy as it looks.:ugh:

RENURPP

7th Sep 2007, 00:24

Dave,
differing opinions are fine, BUT the AFAP did not broker any good deals last year, not one. Jason admitted himself he does not know the detail.
Speak to NJS pilots who have attended meetings with all parties and you may find a more accurate point of view. GUESS WHY the AFAP had 60 or so dissatisfied members who dumped them and go to the TWU pleading for assistance.
The TWU in a two week period achieved gaining more that 80% of the NJS pilots as members and continues to grow as pilots see the difference between the two organisations.
There is a document floating around indicating that the NJS management and the AFAP together decided to sell a $1000 paycut as a pay rise. That is helping management at best and possibly deceiving its members.
Do you agree.
Management took $1000 off Captains.
CPI meant around $2500 increase, NOT a pay rise, CPI simply keeps up with inflation etc (or at least that’s the intention)
AFAP and management sold it like a $1500 pay rise!
2 yrs we have been waiting for the AFAP to address an issue regarding RDO's we recently received a letter advising they had 6 yrs to address it.
There are multiple individual cases of pilots not being satisfied with there efforts.
One Pilot resigned the other day only to have a AFAP person attempt to phone him, and allegedly ended up as an aggressive and rude call to the pilots wife.
I ask you the same question I politely asked Jason Bourne,
I challange you to tell us ONE good thing the AFAP has done for NJS pilots!
your turn go ahead.

Capn Bloggs

7th Sep 2007, 00:32

David,

I know keeping a business viable it ain't easy as it looks.

That may well be the case but what of the managers of a company trying to meet their budgets by shafting their already-over productive frontline staff, in all probability to increasing their own bonuses?

Skywest some years ago was in deep doo doo after the Abeles train wreck came to a crashing halt. The whole company, bosses included, took a substantial pay cut. Maybe such a sacrifice is not written into the AP3456, the RAAF's "how to do it" manual. From what I have heard, no such thing is happening at NJS. No wonder the troops are revolting.

David_Webb

7th Sep 2007, 00:39

Renurpp,

Obviously you have strong feelings.

From a management perpective it makes sense for us to keep staff costs down and even try to reduce them.

It also makes sense to keep the troops onside so if the AFAP can provide that service by helping us sell a poopy sandwich, whats the harm?

Everyone wins.

RENURPP

7th Sep 2007, 01:40

Take it easy Tiger,

Bourne has a point the AFAP does make it tough on Managers NJSor elsewhere.

I know keeping a business viable it ain't easy as it looks

From a management perpective it makes sense for us to keep staff costs down and even try to reduce them.

It also makes sense to keep the troops onside so if the AFAP can provide that service by helping us sell a poopy sandwich, whats the harm?

make your mind up, are they there to help you or help us?

cunninglinguist

7th Sep 2007, 02:06

Guys, to quote a famous Aussie " going nowhere in a hurry ", this describes both this thread and NJS. Witn the rise VB just got, and the one that Jet* will probably get ( either way, still far better T&Cs than NJS ) if you guys don't get a ( min ) 10% increase then you are just going backward, as effectively, we have always done.

Simple solution, vote with your feet ( as I, and many others have ) and give yourselves ( maybe not instantly, but definitely in the long term ) a better working life.
Most of the people I flew with at NJS deserve alot better than those :mad: are prepared to give.
There is a big wide world out there that extends well beyond Perth and Darwin. Unless you have 5 years or less of flying, IMHO, get the hell outta there.

PS Ren, I think you will find that the AFAP have helped many individuals ( myself included ) in NJS, not saying they are perfect, far from it, but saying they have done nothing is unfair.

five dogs

7th Sep 2007, 02:16

Dave,
Are you my little mate from round to corner. Just pop on round and help clean my desk up will you like a good little lackey. (He really does think he’s important, poor deluded bugger)

I want to play daddy today. I am a bit sore after the mighty one finished with me (I am still after your job you know) last night. He does like those pineapples!!!!

As for my friend in Melbourne he is a good bloke he has made it hard for me on occasions I can tell you!! Remember that pot plant in Cairns.Hahahahah :yuk::yuk::yuk:

I don’t go to any meetings any more. I don’t like those new pilots. They won’t suck up like the old ones did. Anyway its good to see you on here Geoffrey.

Back to hiding in the tea room for a while…………..

RENURPP

7th Sep 2007, 02:18

cunning,

ok I am fair, if they have helped "some one" thats good. all I asked "jase" for was an example seeing he believed he knew they helped out sooo much.

David_Webb

7th Sep 2007, 05:57

Renurrp,

The AFAP are an industry association so ideally they would support the employer and employee equally so as to balance the industry opportunities amongst the incumbent operators.

In the current job market it is important for us to cap wage growth to an absolute minimum and we achieve this through the federal IR system and by enjoying the flexibility of negotiating individual agreements with the Pilots.

In our Company Wage growth of 10% is unrealistic we are currently pursuing a 5% negative growth rate in real terms over the entire contract. That is it becomes cheaper each year to employ our workers.We achieve this by not accelerating any of the residual clauses such fixed rate growth, insurances, accomodation levels and quality of the uniforms.

In the end everyone wins because the business becomes more efficient.

Capn Bloggs

7th Sep 2007, 06:40

Wind Up Alert!! :{

Jet_A_Knight

7th Sep 2007, 06:43

The AFAP are an industry association so ideally they would support the employer and employee equally so as to balance the industry opportunities amongst the incumbent operators.

If that's the case, I'm asking for a refund.

I'm paying for a protector - not a collaborator.

RENURPP

7th Sep 2007, 12:22

The AFAP are an industry association so ideally they would support the employer and employee equally so as to balance the industry opportunities amongst the incumbent operators.

what are you smoking???

I'm paying for a protector - not a collaborator.

NO NO NO NO NO

You are paying for a collaborator - not a protector.

That has been my whole point!

yowie

7th Sep 2007, 13:32

hey REN, talk with your feet like i did, and i sacked the feds too, have i got a job for you!!;)

aircraft

7th Sep 2007, 14:57

El Kabong said:
I think that the majority would sooner have bowl surgery in the woods with a blunt stick than to sift through another of your "pearls of wisdom".I happen to have great respect for what PAF writes and will go out of my way to read one of his posts. I wish I had his satirical skills - I could then get my message across in far fewer words.

remoak,
Your post (#120) was easily the best and most authoritive post I have ever read on PPRUNE. Those were the unmistakable words of a wise man. I thank you for taking the time. I urge all readers of this thread to go back and read it again - you will find it here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3504992&postcount=120)

David_Webb,
You are right, right and right, but your words will not be understood and accepted by the vast majority of pilots at NJS and/or on this thread - but please don't let that stop you. I applaud you for making the effort to talk to them. They will spit in your face but please persist.

Sunfish,
I suggest you order a personal title which says "barking up the wrong tree".

Capt Claret said:
... we're not wanting to strike for more money, we're trying to avoid being paid LESS!Sadly, we have no right to expect (or demand) that our pay is continually increased so as to stay in line with inflation. We all regard that as some kind of god given right but sadly, it just isn't.

Commercial aviation has been on a relentless 50 year quest to make flying cheaper for the people of the world. For the first few decades, the technological advances to aircraft and engines were, by themselves, sufficient to keep the airfares coming down, but these days, those advances just don't bring the kind of gains they used to.

The arrival of the 787 will bring efficiency increases greater than any recent new airliner but, in relative terms, those increases are almost insignificant compared to the step change that accompanied the entry to service of the magnificent Boeing 707.

In 1945, on an Avro Lancastrian, the one way airfare from Sydney to London would set you back 130 times the average weeks' wage. In 1955, with the arrival of the Lockheed Constellation, that would be 56 times the average week's wage.

In 1960, the Boeing 707 brought the cost down to 22 times. The 747 in 1970 got it down to 14 times. By the year 2000, on the Boeing 777, the cost was down to around 2 times.

Between 1964 and 2002, the CPI has gone up 855%. The price of the average Australian 3 bedroom house has gone up 4,189% in that same period. Petrol has gone up by 986%, a loaf of bread 1,372%, and the average 4 door car 1,316%. Average weekly earnings went up by 1,419%.

How much did the Sydney - London airfare go up by over that same period? A whole 92%.

But you don't need to look back 50 years to see this trend - the low cost model favoured by Jetstar and Tiger make Virgin Blue look almost like a traditional ("legacy") airline! Such is the nature of the commercial aviation industry.

With such dramatic and spectacular declines in the cost of air travel, it was always inevitable that airline staff salaries would have to reduce in order for the airfares to keep coming down appreciably. Those salaries are not just of the pilots, but everybody in the airline.

Don't be fooled by short periods where pilot salaries remain constant, in real terms, or even increase, and don't be fooled by bonuses and increases to executive remuneration. Viewed over the longer term, the trend is clear: airline staff costs (for all staff) are decreasing, and this is true everywhere in the world.

The implications of this should be obvious.

The above statistics I got from the excellent book "Qantas Flightpaths" by Geoffrey Thomas and Christine Forbes Smith.

Chimbu chuckles

7th Sep 2007, 15:13

Well guess what aircraft?

That rediculous situation will have to change.

Sunfish

7th Sep 2007, 20:41

Aircraft, you are an absolute hoot me luvly!

Sadly, we have no right to expect (or demand) that our pay is continually increased so as to stay in line with inflation. We all regard that as some kind of god given right but sadly, it just isn't.

Your words, but later in your post you quote:

Between 1964 and 2002, the CPI has gone up 855%. The price of the average Australian 3 bedroom house has gone up 4,189% in that same period. Petrol has gone up by 986%, a loaf of bread 1,372%, and the average 4 door car 1,316%. Average weekly earnings went up by 1,419%.

Exactly how did average weekly earnings grow by 1419% Aircraft?????

Because in your flat world workers have no right to keep up with inflation

Exactly what is inflation, aircraft? Increased costs of goods and services? If so, then what will inevitably be a major share of those increased costs?

Please tell us Maestro, you should be Federal Treasurer.

Lodown

7th Sep 2007, 23:33

The implications of this should be obvious.

Yep, the only pilots left flying for a job will be simpletons and unless airlines work out how to make crew redundant (which I'm sure they're investigating) they're just digging a huge hole for themselves in terms of having enough crew to do the job.
I agree with you on certain aspects of your argument aircraft, no one has a right to a job. However, a pilot shortage is starting to become apparent and the only reaction from airline execs so far is to continue with the tried and tested policies of the past and cross their fingers that their competition will go bust before they will. (Hmmm, just like GA.) When an airline has to cancel flights on a regular basis because of a lack of crew, surely that will have a greater effect on passenger numbers than a rise in ticket prices.
Reading an interview with Colleen Barrett, President of Southwest Airlines (link below) and it was interesting to see an attitude that the only real competitive advantage is in service. [aircraft, you should enjoy the read.] If the service can't be provided, the customer will go elsewhere. It's a shame that airlines are still protected in Australia through government legislation.
Perhaps if RPT route protection was scrapped, we'd have a better chance of reducing costs than by attacking crew wages. Of course, the airline execs wouldn't support that, would they?

http://www.costcoconnection.com/connection/200709/?u1=texterity

RENURPP

8th Sep 2007, 00:16

Sadly, we have no right to expect (or demand) that our pay is continually increased so as to stay in line with inflation. We all regard that as some kind of god given right but sadly, it just isn't.

In the context of this thread, IT IS OUR RIGHT, and the workplace ombudsman agrees.
Hopefully a big fine will lead to loss of jobs, management jobs!:}

aircraft

8th Sep 2007, 00:41

RENURPP,

Is it written into your EBA/CA/AWA (or whatever agreement) that your salary shall be adjusted for CPI? If so, then yes, you do have such a right.

RENURPP

8th Sep 2007, 00:43

Yes it is and No they have not paid it, hence the proposed action is being taken after 2 yrs of fruitless discussions, court action, and lots of this:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
Management will not/have not paid CPI to pilots who will not sign up to a new AWA with lesser conditions.
They are not able to explain this decision to their employees, it is now before the federal magistrates court, the AIRC and the media.
:=:=:=

freddyKrueger

8th Sep 2007, 00:52

Proves yet again WINNING BY LOSING.

lowerlobe

8th Sep 2007, 01:18

aircraft..

It just goes to show that all those adverts by australian business and the government about the IR laws are a load of BS.The only organisations that benefit from the IR laws are business...

Personally,I can't wait for a change in government.

aircraft

8th Sep 2007, 01:28

Apologies to all - I have muddled things a little by not being sufficiently careful with my wording.

You may have the right to CPI increases but those alone do not guarantee you will not "go backwards" overall. Despite the CPI increases, there can be other things in your agreement that cause you to "go backwards".

You do not have the right to not go backwards, and my blurb about the nature of the industry was to show that you pretty much have to go backwards, so you should be expecting it.

lowerlobe

8th Sep 2007, 01:32

aircraft.....

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

cunninglinguist

8th Sep 2007, 01:40

gee, would'nt you love to work for Aircraft.
In 10 years time you would be paying him to fly his A/C, hang on, Aircraft = NJS:hmm:

RENURPP

8th Sep 2007, 01:42

Aircraft,
I understand that, I suggest even with CPI we will be going backwards, how ever we do have the right to expect what is in our agreements to be honoured and thats what all this is about.
With holding entitlements, having to sign new AWA under duress.
We have not been seeking to increase any benifits in our current agreement.
If you agree with that then can I take it that you agree with our action?

Capt Claret

8th Sep 2007, 01:48

Aircraft, to put it in simple terms.

Our employer had an expectation that we would give up our contractual condition of annual CPI increments when the nominal expiry date came around.

Work Choices supposedly says that one must be compensated if one gives up existing T&C.

We know that CPI doesn't guarantee not going backwards but we've been happy enough with it for 18 years. Losing it means the only way we can go is backward.

Some of us are in the fortunate position that we don't want to change type or seats, so our AWA conditions continue until a new AWA is negotiated and signed.

For the less fortunate, that have to reduce their pay and conditions and commit to it for 5 years (and a lot can change in that time), or, decline a promotion to the LHS or change of type.

What a great example of management getting the best out of their troops. :{

five dogs

8th Sep 2007, 01:52

Goddam it Aircraft, they'll love you here in BS castle. Or, do you already work here????? Do I know you? :eek:

ADL Spin Doctor

8th Sep 2007, 05:44

Seems like most of my mates are already here, nice one boys.

You Pilots are always whinging, first of all I read in the papers is how nobody will negotiate with you.:{

Now all we hear about is how mean everyone is when we play a little hardball and get together with your "industrial association".

No sign, No pay. Take it or leave it sunshine.

Big fine. Boo Friggerty Hoo we'll just find some excess pilot entitlements for that.

Cunning, You paid just can't remember if it was cash or not.;)

swab

8th Sep 2007, 06:22

I knew we shoulda gotya a dosette for your medication, so you wouldn keep missin it son. :rolleyes:

Sunfish

8th Sep 2007, 09:12

You do not have the right to not go backwards, and my blurb about the nature of the industry was to show that you pretty much have to go backwards, so you should be expecting it.

So you mean that people can go forwards?

If I was the last qualified person to be able to fly a B777, then by your reckoning, I can set my own pay?

"Flexibility" works both ways.

If there is ever a shortage of pilots, watch companies run to unions seeking a common award as fast as they can.
Meanwhile if there is a surplus,,,,,,, individual agreements are the way to go.

.................Hypocrits!

aircraft

10th Sep 2007, 00:47

Capt Claret,

Thanks for the description. It seems the writing is on the wall, writ large, and says "thou shalt go backwards". Do you think this requirement has been imposed by the nature of the industry, or is due to government IR policies or has been caused by poor management?

RENURPP,
If the company is refusing to comply with certain terms and conditions in your agreement then I cannot not agree with your action, but the proposed industrial action is about more than just that isn't it?

A question for you now: do you believe your company is being honest to you with its explanations of, and justifications for, the things it is doing?

RENURPP

10th Sep 2007, 01:04

do you believe your company is being honest to you with its explanations of, and justifications for, the things it is doing? They couldn't lie straight in bed. especially considering how many of them are in bed together. :yuk:
They cannot justify it.Not even to the courts.
If the company is refusing to comply with certain terms and conditions in your agreement then I cannot not agree with your action, but the proposed industrial action is about more than just that isn't it?

NO, the industrial action is directly related to non payment of conditions and dureess being applied to sign new AWA's on lesser conditions!!

Ross Oakley

10th Sep 2007, 12:49

Aircraft, you poor deluded management type/ s##t stirrer. Have been following your unadulterated, anonymous posts for the last little while and have finally had enough of your bull.
The bulk of NJS employees only want what is good for them and the company, as it helps us all, however with goddam hopeless management types with brains similar to yours running this operation into the ground, then there is not much hope.
However we have such a fantastic bunch of people that want to succeed, that are not prepared to prostitute themselves, and to achieve that end result, when it is not necessary, our illustrious management/owners want to screw us over!
Nah I do not think so. NJS/COBHAM have the best bunch of people, like a whole lot of other Companies, that have been willing to go the extra yard for a long time to keep their Employers business running in their, and the Companies interest.
And funnily enough that's what keeps most companies going. If only we, as a very small, insignificant, rare commodity in this aviation world, continue to support our chosen Employer then they may well continue to prosper.

ITCZ

10th Sep 2007, 12:58

Striking is good for the company?

Jesus, P-A-F, what else did you get for Christmas? My 2yo stopped blatting on his toy trumpet months ago.

Ross Oakley

10th Sep 2007, 12:59

PAF, you idiot, you are the only person that has mentioned striking on this post!!!

You are right up there with Aircraft!!:ok:

blaster666

10th Sep 2007, 13:21

While I am happy to normally read rather than enter these rambling blogs, for those of us more objective than cynical it needs to be reminded that NJS did not pay CPI only to pilots whose AWA's had been replaced by a new AWA AGREED AND ENDORSED by our nominated pilot committee. My view was that the new AWA, while not optimal, was the best outcome that could be achieved by the old pilot group on our behalf which was also agreed by all of us in support of the QF contract that NJS subsequently obtained. I for one, will not support any action stimulated by propoganda by a bunch of pilots that reneged on that deal to serve their own greed to maintain superior pay than the rest of us who followed through & signed. Now they want us to turn on the company & help them lose money instead of finding more ways to make more money under a signed agreed proviso that it will be shared with us. Get real guys, we are in a business & in the end the more we fragment the business the more we ALL have to lose. :rolleyes:

aircraft

10th Sep 2007, 15:11

RENURPP,

Regarding the honesty of the management: leaving aside the issue of their alleged non-compliance with certain terms and conditions, if it could be shown that they were being completely honest with respect to the other things that are in dispute, would that change your attitude?

Ross Oakley,

Your idea of what is best for the company is most probably flawed. If you are only a pilot then you will most probably see things with the blinkered view that most pilots have.

The vast majority of pilots tend to be spectacularly ignorant of the business and management aspects of their companies and I'm sure the NJS pilots are no exception.

It seems to be a tradition among pilots to regard their management as inept. How many pilots do you know that have a favourable view of their management?

Answer me this: do you think a group of NJS pilots could replace the current management and do a better job?

I am not a "management type", by the way. I am a GA pilot that has nothing to do with any management. Unlike you however, I am a realist that understands and accepts the nature of the aviation industry and my position in it.

EPIRB

10th Sep 2007, 16:41

Aircraft you're showing your true colours here. "ONLY a pilot"

RENURPP

10th Sep 2007, 19:33

do you think a group of NJS pilots could replace the current management and do a better job?

Our management are simply a bunch of ex engineers and pilots.
The answer is YES, I suggest there would be pilots amongst our group who could do a better job!

BLASTER666
My view was that the new AWA, while not optimal, was the best outcome that could be achieved by the old pilot group on our behalf which was also agreed by all of us in support of the QF contract that NJS subsequently obtained.
I for one, will not support any action stimulated by propoganda by a bunch of pilots that reneged on that deal to serve their own greed to maintain superior pay than the rest of us who followed through & signed.
Well your entitled to your view, (you for 1, that just about covers that. Theres probably about 3 of you) it just differs from 90% + of the pilots, the Workplace Ombudsmand and soon to be the courts. The ones who did sign were forced and that will followed up with DURESS cases.
Industrial law does not allow a group of individuals, some of whom were not elected, to represent other pilots who are not even members of your band of heroes’. Even if it does suit managements needs.

David_Webb

10th Sep 2007, 21:17

Blaster 666

You are misguided and have been brainwashed.

READ A BOOK, preferably an IR Law Book before posting again.

You need to dig a little deeper to ascertain who was representing whom and who signed what when.

You were played like a brand new harpsichord.:ugh:

David_Webb

10th Sep 2007, 21:27

Aircraft

Just get out, out of this industry, and out of this thread.

You are an idiot and I am sick of it.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

OpsNormal

10th Sep 2007, 23:43

With due respect, you guys and girls will continue to feed the monkeys.... Just ignore them. Their arguments are floored in many ways and in all honesty could well be a tool/tactic being used to draw your strategy out into the open so as to be used against you.

Look up the term narcissism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism). You might get the drift of what really turns them on.

P_A_F. Do you want a mechanic to embarrass you again? Give it a rest. Did you ever think of trying understand why it has gotten to this point? Don't post your answer, go away and think about it.

blaster666

11th Sep 2007, 00:21

Together - we'll never be defeated !!

Hey I know - let's not let the bastards pay us our $7500 retention bonus this January and tell 'em to stick next year's as well. That'll fix em.

Oh.....hang on that would only reduce the things we've got to bitch about in terms of how bad we are off working 77 hours a month for $126k plus allowances and $7500 for each of the next 2 years in bonuses regardless of the company's profitability !!!

In terms of industrial law, I would have thought the contract that we signed largely governed our terms which reads in mine (and I am sure in yours)

The Employer shall consult with the National Jet Systems Pilot Group Committee as the recognised bargaining agent of the Pilot and each other Pilot employed by the Employer in relation to any variation of the provisions of this AWA and the negotiation of any successor agreement.

mmmmmmmmmmm..........it seems we agreed to something that was surposed to work in our favour and are now don't like the fact that the company abides by the provisions. Damn.......the agreement was only surpose to work in our favour wasn't it !!????

Let's get the WO to fix it for us. They won't know about the fact that that we are reneging on our deal. In fact, if we don't look in the mirror we won't ever believe that either.

Damn that old pilot group for selling out our interests.

I bet the current pilot group would never do anything that might hurt NJS pilots interests in the long term would it !!!!!!??????? :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

JetRacer

11th Sep 2007, 01:33

blaster 666 wrote:

$7500 for each of the next 2 years in bonuses regardless of the company's profitability !!!

Excuse me, but that is not a 'Bonus', that is MY money that I have salary sacrificed to pay for an endorsement which the company needed 'help' in paying for to get the contract. :mad::eek::=

AND they wrote it into the AWA to pay it back!!! It is no way a bonus! :mad::ugh:

Some people have NO idea! :rolleyes::ugh::{

The J55 Riddler

11th Sep 2007, 01:49

Blaster 666

Riddle me this.

Apply some critical thought and find the answers to the following questions;

1. In the clause you mentioned, which party is appointing the NJSPG as your Bargaining Agent? The Employer or the Employee?

2. Which clause in the Workplace Relations Act (pre-reform or Work Choices) covers AWA Bargaining Agents?

3.Who may appoint them?

4.What is the required process?

5.Acting as an Agent, Can Anybody legally oblige you to make a contract with another party?

6. Did your Bargaining Agents sign the AWA commended to you?

7.If so, when? On what date?

No more dirty laundry in public PM to answers to me.

Toolman101

11th Sep 2007, 02:15

OpsNormal

P_A_F. Do you want a mechanic to embarrass you again

Hope thats not a put down on the engineers? sum ov us went to skool to lern how to reed n rite!:=

Kransky

11th Sep 2007, 03:47

what else did you get for Christmas?
A lovely wife!
Congratulations. Has she learned any English yet?

RENURPP

11th Sep 2007, 04:48

Blaster666,

Your complete lack of knowledge on the subject has proven the fool you are.

blaster666

11th Sep 2007, 06:14

Renurpp - I guarantee I know much more about our agreements than you. I have bothered to talk to the boys that did the deal for us. I know what they did, why they did it and how they would have gotten a much better deal than your blind pursuit of aggravation against the hand that feeds you. Your self interest will sell us out & provide a tarnish that will last many years. Your unwillingness/inability to think:confused: outside the dots & find ways to extract money commercially rather than by bribe shows ignorance & foolishness.

Have you bothered to read the workchoices legislation ? Are you aware of the flexibility it provides for us collectively & individually to achieve much much more annual increases than your sacred CPI ........ if you have, where are your ideas......why aren't you listing the options to us .......why haven't you accepted the management challenge to 'show em the money' ....if its there why can't you extract it with your abundant brain matter !!!!????

NOTE THIS in your diaries ye followers of Saviour Renurpp - by the birth of 2008 our long term futures will have been compromised forever - we may have won the battle but do you think our longer term ability to work with the company top achieve more money to share will have been enhanced !!!!????

and so the thread started FINALLY SOME BALLS !!!! - c'mon if we had any real balls we would be presenting a business case for performance bonuses based on a cooperated growth in productivity AND including better lifestyle rosters.

BUT...........F:mad:K....what do I know........ let's STRIKE ...... tha'll fix it :D

JetRacer

11th Sep 2007, 06:22

blaster 666 wrote:

Have you bothered to read the workchoices legislation ? Are you aware of the flexibility it provides for us collectively & individually to achieve much much more annual increases than your sacred CPI ........ if you have, where are your ideas......

blaster, if you have, where are YOUR ideas presented to the pilot group?? :ugh::=

Unless you have suggestions, and voice them, dont criticize!!
Just like people who don't enrol to vote then complain about the government.. :rolleyes:

five dogs

11th Sep 2007, 07:05

You sound like my little mate around the corner!
Are you MFO or passing yourself off as same, maybe your the very short person with the worlds biggest chip that has the direct line to our back sides?? We really like you, your our friend.:ok:

In any case you need to do what I do, pretend every one is your friend. :O

Keep singing the company song old mate and I will have a job down here for you soon.:E

RENURPP

11th Sep 2007, 07:14

Blaster,
Its good to see that you have absolutely no faith in your fellow work mates.:=
They do not follow any one blindly, not the current PG or the previous PG, and neither they should.
What they do realise, at least 90% of them anyway is that we have been screwed over long enough.
What you fail to realise, and I will make it clear to all is that more than 50% of the previous PGC are supporters of the current action. Where does that leave your argument? :confused:
I second Jetracers comments. If you are the genius you believe you are :yuk: and have such great ideas, and can save the world, please email the committe and advise them, just like alot of others have done. :ok:
Folks this guys supports, F/O's on $60,000 yr!
Captains on $90,000 yr
partially paying for endorsements + bonding! Whilst on a training wage of $35,000!!
Accepts being dragged from a final sim ride and advised that if he doesn't sign an AWA he will be unemployed as completely reasonable.
Pilots who are not given command slotts with no explanation simply the MFT decided by "rumour" that they are not suitable.

Lets follow this guy, he's really concerned with his "comrades"

Whiskey Oscar Golf

11th Sep 2007, 07:26

Now I again won't get into what the NJ boys and girls think is the best thing to do in their situation. Thats up to them and management masquerading as probationary posters to decide, and good luck too.

I would however, like to point out some truths for the pro workchoice mob. I was listening to the lefty ABC today at about 1230 today and heard an interesting bloke who was one of those super smart economist types. He was pointing out to the listeners that workchoices as it stands is a dated 2 decade old concept. The current thinking of the world bank, IMF and most forward thinking govts, re Wolfowitz and the ubercons, is that regulated labour markets bring more productivity and lower overall costs, as do better wages. So for every example our pro people throw up I'll counter with places that are nice to their people with regulated labour and strong unions and who have had exceptional, stable economic growth.

So dont give me the argument that the reason for our current economic success is workchoices or it's the thing that will keep it. Save that crap for the people who don't know any better. Economic success is not that simple.
As to the argument the company will die if you don't take these beans, well if your business relies on your employees always getting less, then you're not that good at business. Maybe someone smarter should be there. If you can't make money in WA aviation right now then something is seriously wrong with you.

I say again, good luck to the NJS people and I hope you can get what you need without pain or polarisation. Sorry for the thread drift to people, I'm just getting a little tired of old thought and old cliches.

ADL Spin Doctor

11th Sep 2007, 08:53

Blaster 666

It is not RENURRP who will sell out and tarnish this company it is guess who.

Sometimes the tight budgets and enormous pressure to make things happen make even the best intentioned people fold.

Choices are made, regrettable choices.

Pilots are employed to operate aircraft safely, legally and where possible extract additional commercial advantage.

Our Pilot do their jobs very well. Always have and probably always will.

It is the job of others to manage the show so that the operation remains profitable and the key to that is balancing revenue streams and cost control against the human needs and respect for our staff.

Blindly pursuing money related issues has caused the alienation of our valuable staff.

The 70% turnover of Pilot labour at SAPL and almost crippling shortage of Engineering Licence coverage in Perth are the undesired outcomes to our strategy.

Now being too stubborn to concede any ground to the Workplace Ombudsman and our determination to weather Protected Industrial Action against a $550 per year claim. The claim isn't even about more money for Pilots only retaining current conditions.

It is these decisions made by others, who are not Pilots, which will determine the fate of this Company.

If RENURRP and others did not front me I would just keep asking for more from the staff. That is the nature of our business and I wouldn't be able help my self.

History has proven this to be correct.

Hugh Jarse

11th Sep 2007, 09:19

Kudos to the WOG ;) :ok:

P.S. Leave your money on the fridge.

Private Patjarr

11th Sep 2007, 09:35

As to the argument the company will die if you don't take these beans, well if your business relies on your employees always getting less, then you're not that good at business. Maybe someone smarter should be there.

That about sums it up right there.

Nice work WOG.

Capn Bloggs

11th Sep 2007, 10:03

Blaster,

the agreement was only surpose to work in our favour wasn't it !!????

You can't even spell.

DirtySanchezcousin

11th Sep 2007, 11:43

Blaster 666 good on you for finally speaking the truth. I have been following this thread with some interest for some time and find it hard to believe that the pilots at NJS are considering striking, when the horse bolted at the initial 717 negotiations back in 2005. The deal to begin with stunk to high heaven and those that were willing to accept to protect there own selfish reasons, are now getting their just desserts and screaming foul of the whole thing. This started with the pilot group and obviously could not be finished with them, thats why all of a sudden there was a massive induction of NJS pilots to the TWU.

Believe me, with the level of ground the pilots gave in the initial negotiations, its no wonder the NJS management have taken the stance they have. There was no turning back from such a **** deal to begin with.

I mean a company that believes long serving staff , that should have to pay for their conversions and take pay cuts to make their business viable is absolutely ridiculous and leaves no doubt in my mind that new staff have now where to go but down.

Those that could, left to greener pastures with their fingers in the air leaving a hole to be filled by the ignorant ,destined to be brain washed by those who caused this to begin with.

ADL Spin Doctor

11th Sep 2007, 12:50

Thanks Dirty for your support Blaster and I appreciate it.

Its no wonder we do what we do.

We just can't help ourselves.:)

Capn Bloggs

11th Sep 2007, 12:57

Geez I'd love to have an IP tracker to see where all these noobs are actually posting from...

AerocatS2A

11th Sep 2007, 13:02

Yeah, I doubt it's Adelaide.

papi on

11th Sep 2007, 15:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass-A-Frozo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITCZ
what else did you get for Christmas?
A lovely wife!
Congratulations. Has she learned any English yet?
Sorry guys I dont mean to take anything away from the seriousness of the thread, but Kransky, in over 5 years of reading PPrune your post is the one that has made me laugh the most! Well done son!

RENURPP

12th Sep 2007, 00:19

They are either from Adelaide or every person who is not in the TWU and has a beef with the current action, the whole half dozen of them, have found there way to PPRUNE. Notice the number of posts each has made prior to this??

If they had the balls to stand behind their ideas they would contact some one involved, either the TWU or a PG committee person, reality is they don't have the courage of their convictions oR totally incompetent and made it to Bull**** castle and this is some weird type of PR campaign.

blaster666

12th Sep 2007, 00:20

Thanks for the spelling feedback Bloggs - adding value to to the debate you intellectual giant !

ADL Spin Doctor - you are festering - why don't you have the balls to stand on you ethics & get a job you are happy with instead of being a monkey that plays to game & holds his hand each month for coins everytime the organ grinder spins your tail.

Fellow pilots - my aim is simply to suggest that we can achieve MORE not LESS if we play the game of commerce. Show them we are intelligent & commercially focussed professionals that have/can contribute more to the business and DEMAND contractually that achieving those goals = more money for us rather than acting like disgruntled militant busdrivers (or school teachers in Bloggs case) with fists in the air pretending we can beat the man (leave, rosters, overtime, contactability, fuel, customer satisfaction, productivity are some of the words of business I think we are smart enough to translate into more $'s than CPI per annum).

We are all agreed the best form of defence is attack - it is just the strategy of the attack will make the difference between the winner of a battle versus the war.

RENURPP

12th Sep 2007, 00:22

Blaster,:confused:
What planet did you arrive from.:confused:
why don't you have the balls to stand on you ethics & get a job you are happy with instead of being a monkey that plays to game & holds his hand each month for coins everytime the organ grinder spins your tail.
What the f*& does that mean. i hope you understand what your on about?

Dirty,

You need to reconsider your post. On one hand you blowing trumpets up blaster rssss, next minute you are undermining his aregument.
Can't have it both ways old mate.

blaster666

12th Sep 2007, 00:27

Renurpp - the reason I have not contributed before is that I do not normally get involved in public intellectual debates. Just do my job & be satisfied for the choices I have made & the PERSONAL decisions I have the power to make (and will continue to make).

A note for you - why is it that in all of your posts, as soon as the debate on the ISSUE becomes logical against your OPINION, you revert to personal attack ? Maybe just a coincidence, but it may be better in representing our interests to be rationale rather than emotional if this is also exhibited outside this forum !!

RENURPP

12th Sep 2007, 00:29

I do not normally get involved in public intellectual debates.
Thats the most sense you have made yet. I believe I know why.:E
:=
Post a logical post and I will discuss it with you:eek:

DirtySanchezcousin

12th Sep 2007, 01:17

Renurpp, I am not in the game of blowing trumpets up anyones arse. I personally did not agree with the original deal and certainly have no time for a management structure that negotiates on fear, and therefore chose to leave to far greener pastures. Blast seems to be right in what he is saying though. You all negotiated this deal and now you don't like it.

As the saying goes " you make your own bed and now you will lie in it".

RENURPP

12th Sep 2007, 01:34

Well thats where your wrong. i didn't negotiate it, wasn't a member of the AFAP:yuk: or the PG. I didn't agree then and i don't agree now, neither do the vast vast majority.
good opn you for leaving, that was no doubt a good move.

Its Blaster that says
I have bothered to talk to the boys that did the deal for us. I know what they did, why they did it and how they would have gotten a much better deal than your blind pursuit of aggravation against the hand that feeds you.

think about that, and who you offer your congrats to.

Capt Claret

12th Sep 2007, 02:34

blaster666

Me thinks you've got our roles mixed up.

They're the managers, business unit managers they like to be called. Understandably they want to reduce costs, and raise profit. But so far the only thing they've really hit on to do this, is to reduce the Ts&Cs such that we can only go backwards financially.

It is their job to come up with methods to increase productivity, thus gaining more bang for their buck, and possibly offering some incentive.

I made my position known at a meeting, once I was able to get a word in edgeways. I said that as an individual I'd rather increase the overtime threshold than lose dollars, and in return I'd like lifestyle changes that gave me more time at home; that is, work me harder when I'm at work, rather than 3.5 block hours to then spend 24 hours in a hotel.

The answer was to the effect "I don't think I need more work from you". :ugh:

I seriously doubt that any idea proffered from the pilot body would pass the first myopic glance. :{

Capn Bloggs

12th Sep 2007, 03:15

Blaster,
Thanks for the spelling feedback Bloggs - adding value to to the debate you intellectual giant !
My plesure! :ok:

Capt Claret

12th Sep 2007, 03:47

Oi, Bloggs, psst, before any one notices, I'll whisper, try a spell checker. :p

DirtySanchezcousin

12th Sep 2007, 11:50

Claret you were one of the most vocal supporting the initial 717 deal. Why now do you want to protect conditions when 2 years ago it suited you to quote " give up CPI for a 2% increase because it was easier and less expensive to relocate". Is it now that you offer more productivity for more time at home because living in Cairns has you away for 2 nights rather than one as was the case in Darwin and once again your looking after number one?

Capt Claret

12th Sep 2007, 12:56

DirtySanchezcousin

Not an ounce of fact in your assertions above. A search for the key phrases revealed no match.

Your assumptions are way off the mark too. :hmm:

cunninglinguist

13th Sep 2007, 11:18

Way back then I remember a wise old pilot saying something like " the more you give these :mad: the more they will take ", well, the chooks are well and truly coming home to roost for the " its only $1000, and we'll get the 15K back anyway " gang.

RENURPP

13th Sep 2007, 11:24

Although the whole process sucks/sucked, BUT we will get the 15K + 1K back and its only a matter of a couple of months now.

DirtySanchezcousin

14th Sep 2007, 21:26

Your dead right Cunny that rooster is singing its heart out!

Kransky

19th Sep 2007, 12:39

Cunning is right but not for the reasons he thinks. The fun bit will be the next couple of months when the heat gets turned up. Lots of rough tough pilots but they havent done industrial tough it out before. First time at anything is rough. Will they be able to spot the company tactics for what they are?

1. NatJet will target a couple of guys and put them on nice new AWAs. That is how you sell an AWA. Give a little on the percentage increase, pay for a few more things, maybe put an end of contract bonus in it. Sweeten it up for the first few so a few pilots can go out there and say "well I signed a new AWA and I am getting everything we asked for and a bit more."

Surprised they haven't done that yet.

2. Start some rumours. Maybe get a few more managers sign up to Pprune and plant the idea that qantas and the big mining companies are thinking of moving some of their work to other companies to reduce exposure to pilot industrial action. Sounds reasonable.

Waiting for that one to happen.

Maybe also start a rumour about the pilot reps.. "you know why they are doing that, they might be saying this/that but they are lining up for (jobs overseas/management position/side deal on next endorsement)" etc.

Maybe tell a little bit about the law that they know and take it to an improbable conclusion. Like "BHP will send some industrial lawyers to NJS to help them beat striking pilots" or "qantas and the mining companies will get injunctions under rule xyz123 in the industrial commission to stop pilots taking action"

That should pop its head up soon.

Stick with it boys and girls. You will never know how much was there to be won if you didnt play the game to the end.

Capn Bloggs

19th Sep 2007, 12:55

Kransky,

Judging by that post, you already know that all that stuff is old hat or has been thought-of already! :}

The message is loud and clear from just along the tarmac. If NJS management is not taking a keen interest in what is happening at Skippers then they should. :ok:

five dogs

19th Sep 2007, 13:41

Kransky,

you letting out all our secrets there old mate!!

My little mate that wears the "Smiths Chips" around on his shoulder,(that extra extra large pack) , you all know who I mean, is out there selling our new deal for us. Its really crap but he just wants a job down here, he will say anything.
So boys and girls keep your eyes open and the dwarf will be in an ear near you soon!!!:E

cunninglinguist

20th Sep 2007, 02:17

Your dead right Cunny that rooster is singing its heart out!

Cunning is right but not for the reasons he thinks.

Ok, now I'm confused, and german sausage boy is obviously a mind reader, coz he thinks he knows why I think I am right :confused::confused::hmm:

ITCZ

20th Sep 2007, 07:10

Nah Kransky's just been in the sandpit too long, and is missing home!

RENURPP

20th Sep 2007, 11:08

How many sausages can one company have? :confused:
Between the Kransky's and the chipilata's its like a sausage factory!!:ooh:
:E

The J55 Riddler

21st Sep 2007, 00:24

Riddle Me This.

Why the F#%K would the AFAP abandon the collective view and negotiate an AWA for 2 Pilots.

AFAP-MANAGEMENT COLLABORATORS

SHAME ON YOU AFAP, YOU SHOULD BE TOSSED OUT OF THE ACTU AND THE ENTIRE LABOUR MOVEMENT. YOU ARE NOT A UNION'S A#$EH@LE!!!

:ugh::ugh:

Kelly Slater

21st Sep 2007, 06:43

Tha AFAP have never been a member of the ACTU have they? They might have gotten on better with Bob Hawke if they signed up.

The J55 Riddler

21st Sep 2007, 09:01

Kelly,

You are exactly right and that begs the question. What sort of Union is not a member of the ACTU?

Answer: One that is not even a Union's A#$eh@le!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

By the way you rip.

3 Holer

21st Sep 2007, 09:13

They might have gotten on better with Bob Hawke if they signed up.........................NO THANKYOU !:mad:

cunninglinguist

27th Sep 2007, 01:08

Gone a bit quiet guys, the suspense is killing me :E

There was alot of chest beating, and fist on the desk pounding a short time ago, so what gives :confused:

RENURPP

27th Sep 2007, 01:11

Cunning,

we are dealing with Government bodies here, it all takes tiiiimmmmmeeeeee.

Still being processed!:ok:

blaster666

27th Sep 2007, 04:25

TWU, National Jet work it outhttp://media.aspermont.com.au/web_images/grey.gifMonday, 17 September 2007
Rebecca Lawson

PROGRESS is being made between National Jet and the Transport Workers Union (TWU) with the latter stopping short of applying for industrial action that could have thrown the mining industry into turmoil for its fly-in, fly-out workers.
http://media.aspermont.com.au/images/thumbnails/125px_tnhj1526.jpg (http://www.miningnews.net/storyview.asp?storyid=118462#)
TWU organiser Rick Burton told MiningNews.net the union and the contracted air services provider, which employs pilots who fly for QantasLink, have had two meetings so far, with another one arranged for later this week.

Burton said the TWU had not applied to the Industrial Relations Commission to seek approval for a secret ballot, which could have led to industrial action, because National Jet had indicated it was prepared to talk about the pilots' grievances.

At the end of last month, around 70 pilots voted unanimously to have collective union agreements replace their current individual contracts, and the inclusion of some conditions such as training, promotion, equal pay and reasonable working hours.

The TWU had previously threatened to launch an industrial campaign following the outcome of the secret ballot, which could have included eight-hour and rolling stoppages and placing work bans on flying times.

Any industrial action would have thrown a spanner in the works for fly-in-fly out workers in Western Australia's Pilbara region with National Jet counting Rio Tinto, Minara Resources, Newcrest, Santos and Bristow Helicopters among its clients.

"If we don't start to have a positive outcome on that one [meeting later in the week] then I think our application for a secret ballot would happen early next week," Burton said today.

"So far we've sat down and had two meetings, so we've just got to get from them that they're going to do a collective agreement."

Burton added he was confident industrial action would not be necessary, but that would depend on the outcome of this week's meeting.

A National Jet spokesperson told MNn the company had nothing further to add.

cunninglinguist

27th Sep 2007, 08:47

Thanks Gents
good luck

Icarus2001

27th Sep 2007, 09:15

A National Jet spokesperson told MNn the company had nothing further to add...to the salary of its workers. Or to their CPI claim.:bored:

The J55 Riddler

30th Sep 2007, 05:15

Blaster

You are a f#cking Goose that article is over 10 days old. Obviously you are not a TWU member and therefore don't know jacksh#t about diddly squat so don't bother commenting any further.:ugh::ugh::ugh:I truly hope you don't fly aeroplanes for a living.:eek:

blaster666

2nd Oct 2007, 00:32

JOKE Me This Riddler !

Someone asks a question & I post a reply. Der, that is what forums are for funny man.

Get on the subject & forget the personal attacks. My view has been, is & will be that none of you chest beaters WILL have the balls to vote for a strike let alone have one. God I hope you take your blinkers off when your in the cockpit or do you just serve coffee ?

RENURPP

2nd Oct 2007, 01:19

Get on the subject & forget the personal attacks.
Absolutely amazing that some one who BLASTS every one else can write such drible.
bunch of pilots that reneged on that deal to serve their own greed
Your unwillingness/inability to think
you intellectual giant
you are festering
why don't you have the balls to stand on you ethics & get a job you are happy with instead of being a monkey that plays to game & holds his hand each month for coins everytime the organ grinder spins your tail.
like disgruntled militant busdrivers (or school teachers in Bloggs case)God I hope you take your blinkers off when your in the cockpit or do you just serve coffee ?
Pay attention to your own words!! Is this a case of I can give but I definetely can't take??:yuk:
A note for you - why is it that in all of your posts, as soon as the debate on the ISSUE becomes logical against your OPINION, you revert to personal attack ? Maybe just a coincidence, but it may be better in representing our interests to be rationale rather than emotional if this is also exhibited outside this forum !!

blaster666

2nd Oct 2007, 06:50

As if magically to reinforce my point, none of YOUR edited content above contributed in any way to the subject of the thread. All I am trying to do is provide material relevant to questions or conversation on the subject or (unfortunately) respond to personal attacks from intellectuals who prefer to play the man rather than the issue if anyone "dares" to raise an alternative opinion.

However, I now see the reason why many of us are humoured rather than contribute to these forums and will revert to looking after myself rather than trying to influence the collective 'mindset' of other NJS pilots because it seems the minds are set.

Good luck chaps, I'll wave to you at the picket lines as I admire your wonderful testicles blowing in the wind when you finally decide to show them to the CIA !!!! :D