Argentines help to ease support helo shortfall

[Navaleye]

I nearly fell off my stool when I heard that a captured Argentine Puma has been pulled out of a museum to be refurbished for operational use. Its a low hours airframe for sure, but isn't this going a tad too far?

[ORAC]

I nearly fell off my stool when I heard that a captured Argentine Puma has been pulled out of a museum to be refurbished for operational use. Its a low hours airframe for sure, but isn't this going a tad too far?

I dunno, ask the SAS about their Agusta A-109s ... :hmm:

ZE410: Argentine Army A.109A serial AE-334.
ZE411: Argentine Army A.109A serial AE-331.

Then there was the TPS-43E, SkyGuard etc etc....

[4Foxtrot]

To the victor go the spoils.

I also believe that some South African Pumas have been purchased/refurbished to serve a similar purpose. However, these have been acquired through more standard defense procurement channels.

[Razor61]

As WEBF pointed out in an email earlier to me, although i already knew of the project but the MoD are acquiring hundreds of brand new MAN utility trucks to replace the old Bedford 4tonners and upwards.
This project is costing well over £1bn and is ongoing now with quite a few already delivered.
Do we need those MAN trucks right away, the last i saw most of the Bedfords were still going strong, albeit a few in tatters i admit.

That £1bn+ could have been spent on extra helicopters. Instead we take out a Puma from a museum......

[XV277]

Hardly news. Said Puma (ZE449) entered RAF service in 2001, having been used for a variety of ground based purposes before that. Don't think it was ever in a museum.

[WIWOWessex]

It gets worse....the South African Pumas went to Romania to be de-modified to HC1 standard. That involved taking out lots of useful kit. I'm not sure but it might have included the Makela engines being taken out.

[Gainesy]

The latter makes the Typhoon gun saga look almost sane, you couldn't make it up, eh Humphrey?

[PlasticCabDriver]

Hardly news. Said Puma (ZE449) entered RAF service in 2001, having been used for a variety of ground based purposes before that. Don't think it was ever in a museum.

Correct. Sat in storage for a long time, but not in a museum.

I also believe that some South African Pumas have been purchased/refurbished to serve a similar purpose. However, these have been acquired through more standard defense procurement channels.

6 x S330J were purchased. 2 are in service, 2 are still being converted, and 2 are in storage.

I'm not sure but it might have included the Makela engines being taken out.

Nope. The engines were 4C4, not Makela. More powerful certainly, but still no anticipators.

[RileyDove]

I think she had a hand grenade thrown in her cabin to render her unairworthy during or just after the war. That made her rebuild somewhat more protracted and I should imagine quite expensive!

[TEEEJ]

That was 6 years ago and not out of a museum.

The Puma was PA-12 liberated in the Falklands from the Argentine Coast Guard. This helo, after many years serving as a ground instructional(9017M), went through a lengthy rebuild. The ex-PA-12 now serves with the RAF as a Puma HC.1, serial ZE449. It was delivered to the RAF as an HC.1 in 2001.

Image of PA-12/ZE449 can be found here

http://www.aeromilitaria.com.ar/hst/puma/1591/index.htm

There was also the Argentine Argentine CH-47C, serial AE-520. Part of this ex-Argentine helo now serves with the RAF. The helo returned to the UK in August 82. It was assigned a UK serial ZH257 and over the years has been in storage or in use as a ground instructional airframe. It was assigned the maintenance serial 9217M. The rear half of this Argentine Chinook was mated with the remains of a damaged RAF example, serial ZA704, and entered service in 2001. The front remains of AE-520 I believe went back into storage.

I say that it was an excellent use of resources. The AAC uses captured Argentine Agusta 109s. The 35mm Oerlikons/Skyguards were also put to good use at the time back in the UK.

[ORAC]

In summary, when you don't get properly financed for new kit, you scavenge around the rubbish you pick up to make do.

[Two's in]

Wandering around Fleetlands some years back (when the Navy ran it) and got briefed on the cost of a Lynx post crash rebuild. Not sure of how many millions it was exactly, but it was at least 2-3 times the going rate for a brand new one. RNAY gadgie explained that while there was no money in the Procurement bucket for a new one, there was more than enough in the R&O bucket to spend fixing one at 3 times the cost. Your tax dollars at work...

[Carnage Matey!]

The rear half of this Argentine Chinook was mated with the remains of a damaged RAF example, serial ZA704, and entered service in 2001.

I thought driving a 'cut and shut' was bad enough but flying one?!:eek:

[TEEEJ]

I found some more on this. It was the aft pylon.

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/chinook/aft_pylon_removal.html

[Dan Winterland]

Quote 4Foxtrot: "I also believe that some South African Pumas have been purchased/refurbished to serve a similar purpose. However, these have been acquired through more standard defense procurement channels."

Using the enemy's kit which you won in battle is very historic. It has been a standard defence procurement channel for centuries!

[MarkD]

indeed DW - why else was the order of the Navy's priorities *take*, sink, burn, destroy?

[Tiger_mate]

I saw (1994) ZE449 on the jig at Westland’s (Weston-super-mare), and it had been rebuilt to as good as new. Westland’s wanted to 'zero hour' the airframe but the MOD insisted that used components (engines / transmission) were used, therefore a nominal 'airframe hours' was guessed at in the absence of technical history.

It looked in far better shape then the Puma fleets own cut and shunt that was also present. This had, from the floor up one that had been to the bottom of the English Channel. From the floor down (inc cabin floor) one that had been involved in a ground taxi/roll over/fire incident. The tail boom was from a third one, and all 3 registration serials were written on the airframe!

As has already been alluded to, often if not usually rebuild budgets are unrealistic when new purchase is the most cost effective way. Flight itself is only 100 years old yet we are flying 36 year old helicopters, whilst Third World countries are flying contempary helicopters having resigned their own Pumas to museums. The old girl has done her bit (and more) and should be replaced with new, off the shelf, medium sized helicopters.

[Tiger_mate]

Eurocopter NH90
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/nh90/images/nh4.jpg

In June 2000, the participating countries signed a contract for the production of 243 NH90s:

France 27
Germany 80 TTH (with an option on a further 54),
Italy 46 NFH and 70 TTH.
Netherlands 20
Germany converted 42 options to firm orders (30 TTH for the Army and 12 TTH for the Air Force in June 2007.
Portugal became the fifth nation to join the NH90 programme, with a requirement for ten NH90 TTH helicopters.

In September 2001, the NH90 was chosen as the common helicopter for the Nordic Standard Helicopter Programme, for the navies of Norway, Sweden and Finland. Sweden has ordered 18 (13 TTT, five NFH), Finland 20 TTH and Norway 14 NFH (six for ASW and six for the coastguard). The first, a transport variant, was delivered to Sweden in June 2007. Sweden is the first customer for the High-Cabin Version (HCV), which has a cabin height of 1.82m compared to 1.58m for the standard version.

In July 2004, 20 NH90 helicopters were ordered by the Royal Air Force of the Sultanate of Oman.

In August 2004, the Australian Ministry of Defence selected a version of the helicopter, the MRH 90, to meet the Australian Army requirement for 12 troop transport helicopters under the Air 9000 programme. The contract was signed in June 2005. The helicopters will be built by Australian Aerospace, a subsidiary of Eurocopter and will be delivered between December 2007 and December 2009. A further 35 helicopters were ordered in June 2006. The first MRH90 made its maiden flight in March 2007. The MRH90 is to replace the ageing Navy Sea King and Army Black Hawk helicopters.

In April 2005, the NH90 was selected to replace the Royal New Zealand Air Force's fleet of UH-1H Iroquois helicopters. A contract for nine helicopters was signed in July 2006.

"In 2003, the NH90 became the first medium-sized transport helicopter to fly with full fly-by-wire controls."In June 2007, Belgium placed an order for eight NH90, four NFH naval and four TTH transport plus two optional TTH helicopters.

In January 2007, the Spanish government placed an order for an initial batch of 45 helicopters in the TTH configuration.

In December 2003, the NH90 became the first medium-sized transport helicopter to fly with full fly-by-wire controls, with no mechanical back-up. This is the serial production configuration

Total NH90 orders are 495 fixed and 60 options from 14 countries.

14 (Scandinavian / European / Australasian) Countries have made a decision to upgrade second generation helicopters and maintain a medium lift helicopter instead of the risk of loss associated with large SH in a combat zone. This incidently is why the UK did not take up a US offer many moons ago for second hand C141 Starlifters. The loss of a C130 does not take out a regiment whereas a C5 for example would. Whilst the CSAR Cougar is a capable helicopter and natural successor to the Puma, the NH90 is the next generation helicopter with in-build longevity and easily cross serviced with allied nations. It is marine compatable which is a bummer, but it makes it 'expedition force' compatable.

So polititions with purse strings, get your wedge out and give the boys some new kit to do the job with.

[Valiantone]

I doubt the politicians will ever really put their hands deep into the coffers to buy a seriously big order for Helicopters, they are far to busy pandering to all the Jobless morons that breed 10+ children and claim they cannot get work. (apologies to anyone that is really in need of DWP pennies)

As for those pathetic claims of 'we'll stop your benefits' Pigs might fly. goto any Chavestate and tell me they have done that....thats assuming you don't get stabbed, shot, or worse before you get there.

Quite how you conclude that 70+ Future Lynx replaces all the current airframes is beyond me, as for the other SHF Helos, its almost like the Tornado Prototype MRCA joke - ie Must Refurbish Canberra Again.

Only this time its Must Refurbish Sea King, Puma , Chinook etc etc oh and throw a couple of Danes in for good measure. They say a leopard cannot change its spots....Since when have politicians ever changed, they are as bad as Denis Healey, John Nott etc etc and look what they did to the Armed Forces.

Jumps of soapbox......

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