Robinson Residual price formula

[gyrotyro]

Can anyone throw some light on how to price a Robinson R22 or 44 ?

I.E The formula for finding the residual price for a time expired a/c or the current value based on a/f time and engine hours remaining.

Thanks

[VfrpilotPB/2]

The history has alot to do with the resid value of any flying thing, but if everything is expired it could be worth only what weight it is converted to "Frag scrap" minus your costs.

Peter R-B
Vfr

[OneManBand]

GT,

I think the formula you refer to is:

Hull Value + (hrs remaining x residual value per hour)

In the UK for an R22 this USED to be approx:

£18,000 + (remaining hrs x £42 ~ £44 / hour)

Eg an R22 with approx. 500 hrs left would be:

£18,000 + (500 * 42) = £39,000


I say USED to be as its been a while now since I was involved in this sort of thing, so not sure how the exchange rate; cost of mx; insurance etc has affected these figures.

Hope it helps.
OMB

[bladewashout]

Residual prior to first rebuild is higher than prior to the second because a tailboom is required, so rebuild costs are higher.

Also seems to depend on the general market: sub-600 hour aircraft depend more on condition, prior use and specification and can be quite aircraft-specific in a good market, but when things are slow all the sellers get hit!

Until recently, Raven 1 prices were very strong because low hour models were quite hard to come by.

BW

[topendtorque]

always count in the cost of a complete loom at the fourth life, unless you like having tedious downtime well away from base.

later models with the whizz bang gizmos such as automatic - idiot proof - carb heat control are proving popular as well.

[moosp]

We found that a useful way of getting a ballpark figure for the Robinson values was to look into the "For Sale" section of your country's flying magazine and using the asking prices for the few aircraft for sale there, making up a graph of hours flown versus asking price.

It's not a straight line, but it gives an idea of where to place your bid. As stated above, the flying history will change the value, and the second and subsequent rebuilds will affect the next rebuild price, and hence the residual value.

Last time I looked, near time expired R22's with a good history were around US$40,000.

In our experience, privately owned ones were in better nick that those from training establishments, but it depended entirely on who had been looking after the machine for maintenance. Privately kept in a field with the maintenance 100 miles away := but commercially flown, cosmetically rough, hangar kept with an engineer on site, we found the better option.

The market is relatively transparent, so you get what you pay for in the end


Oh, and topend, I bow to your seniority in this industry but I can assure you from personal experience that the latest carb heat is not idiot proof. It may well be idiot resistant... ;)


FWIW

[rotorboater]

Interesting how much the time ex hulls are going to be worth soon with the US $ being weak.

The maths are New R1 $310,000 = £155,000 GBP

http://www.robinsonheli.com/pdf_files/r44i_pricelist_jan_2007.pdf

Rebuild - £90,000 GBP
Hydraullics - £33,000 GBP
Total - £123,000 GBP
Therefore max time ex value - £32,000 GBP

But that gets you a 12 year old 2200 hr machine, it must be worth 25% less, £38,750, than a new machine therefore the hull value should be minus £6750! I think the people asking 40k for a timex are being a bit unrealistic!

[gyrotyro]

I agree with rotorboater, with the $ weak the residual must drop as well.

One man band, do you have an hourly rate for a 44 as well ?

[bvgs]

I was wondering if you guys could give me your views on the value of a first time round timed out R22 Beta II and the same for a R44 Raven II. I know avionics etc will change this, but a base guide would be most helpful. Many thanks.

[jeepys]

In my personal opinion the way the market is right now a timed out 22 or 44 is near worthless as you can buy a very low timed ie 200hr, 2 year old machine for very little money.

If you are looking to buy one for none flying purposes ie a gate guard for example then it's a good time to do it but if you are thinking of rebuilding one then you must be mad.

But like I say only my opinion.

[wallism]

Are you buying or selling? That makes all the difference.

[biggles99]

That's the BEST answer on this whole thread, Wallis.

So true.:ok:

Big Ls.

[bvgs]

Accepting a trade of a beta II against my Raven II and trying to work out residual value of both.

[muffin]

If it is any help, about 8 months ago I was quoted £35k for my R22 Beta 2 in PX against a s/h Raven 2. Mine at the time had 270 hours and 2.5 years left on it.

[generalspecific]

Our much loved old R44 is up for sale because we are in the pleasant position of being long too many helicopters. Its a Jan 1990, R44 Raven 1 with pop out floats and just a fraction under 2,000 hours. The old bird is cleared to the max 2,200 hrs as the engineer has just done the engine check. By counting back on my fingers, we have 23 months to fly off the 200 hours before its calendar life expires.

Now I know the cost of the overhaul from the Robbo site and in theory the calc should be resale price of a newly renovated Raven 1 on its second time around the block, less the cost of the rebuild (US$156,000 according to Robbo), lets call this the Old Hull Price.the My questions are;

1. What's a "new" Raven 1 on its secong time round worth
2. Can the floats be reused or do they get binned and or is there an overhaul price addition for these.
3. How do I price the remaing 200 odd hours to add back to the "Old Hull P rice"

I'm sure there are some experts out there.....

[61 Lafite]

Now I know the cost of the overhaul from the Robbo site and in theory the calc should be resale price of a newly renovated Raven 1 on its second time around the block, less the cost of the rebuild (US$156,000 according to Robbo), lets call this the Old Hull Price

... less the 'risk cost' of anything which isn't in the standard 1st rebuild cost, but which robinson decides does need replacing, e.g (if I remember rightly) the tailcone.

Any (sane) buyer will want to discount the risk out of the price...

Lafite

[Camp Freddie]

years ago there was a formula useful in the UK, for calculating what the correct sales price of an R22 should be and it started with something like:-

£35k (timed out hull value) PLUS

(and then a formula bit which took account of hours and years remaining)

anyone know what the up to date formula is? and if if it is ex vat or inc vat.

spent some time looking but cant find, grateful for any help in advance.

regards

CF

[bladegrabber]

CF

Cant believe your buying an R22? this a new addition to the CHC fleet?

BG

[Camp Freddie]

BG,

so you don't know then !

CF

[biggles99]

Hello CF.

The first question to answer is

"are you buying or selling"? Values will vary enormously.

Second, the timed out value of a R22 will be somewhere between 12k and 20k. Condition, model, age, number of re-builds, out of phase parts, location, will all influence how much you get or how much you pay.

Third, the depreciation from new price to core value over 12 years or 2,200 hours (whichever arrived first) is by no mean a straight line. A mid-life R22 will be valued at somewhere between 50k and 70k, but a mid-yeared R22 with just 600 hours to run will also be worth this kind of money. A R22 with 1500 hours and 8 years to go will only be valued at about 10k more.

You might be able to find a R22 with 2 years and 300 hours to go, and this can be worth as little as 20k and as much as 40k.


Forth, the value of the GBP to the USD massively influences the viability of doing a re-build. So this means that sometimes schools, engineers and owners want to get a hull re-built and at at other times they want to get rid and buy a different one.

So I suppose the short answer to your question is "No", there is no hard and fast formula anymore, there are many factors to take into consideration.

Hope this is not unhelpful??!!

And if you want any more help in buying or selling, just PM me.

Big Ls.

[bladegrabber]

CF

yes mate big shame perhaps we can get one of the others to come and do the necessary there? you planning on doing something private / commercial ? I would be keen to join in and have good connections in the area.

BG

[Camp Freddie]

thanks biggles, that was very helpful indeed, was thinking about buying, I was just confused by seeing some adverts which had short times or hours to go and seem outrageously expensive to me,

USD exchange rate for rebuild gives an extra dimension, make me wonder if i should be thinking on a different level and avoiding the rebuild thing all together. maybe a enstrom 280 or something like that, lots to think about cheers.

bladegrabber, was thinking about in the london area not norwich, cheers anyway

CF

[widgeon]

I got a message on Linked-in for and R44 for sale in Canada.
2466 TT , overhaul due at 2573 .94.7K Cdn dollars. What is the core value of a timex R44 ?.

[krajowyzamsz]

Hi Guys,

I want to calculate the value of used Robinson R44 II.

- year 2008
- TT 410 hrs
- Basic equip. - nothing special except radar altimeter. 7 hole panel without gps.

Do you know how i should calculate it?

[Soave_Pilot]

Depends where you are... US, Europe, South America, Russia etc etc
Try to find many as many similar to yours around where you are, and price it based on that, because if you too far off, you won't sell it most likely.

[G-ROAR]

We sold our R44 which was a Raven 2 year 2008 with 250 hrs on for £180k.
Looking recently at avbuyer the prices seem all over the place at the moment.

[rubberband]

Pricing R22 or R44
1. Contact at least 2 'in country' new Robbie dealers and ask what they will give you for your fictitionaly time expired machine on a trade in for new macine. Average these prices. eg R22 $45,000 and $55,000 equals a timex price of $50,000
2. Get price on new machine with same features on next phone call. eg R22 $300,000
3. Find difference for new machine to timex. eg (take step1 from step 2) R22 $300,000 minus $50,000 equals $250,000
4. divide the step 3 price by the available 2200 hours on new machine. eg $250,000 divided by 2200hours equals approx $124
5. multiply step 4 price with the hours remaining on your machine until next 2200 hourly. eg if your machine has 1200 total it will have 1000hours left until next rebuild, so $124 multiplied by 1000 will be $124,000.
6. Add step 5 price to step 1 price eg $124,000 plus $50,000 equals $174,000 or pesos or rubbles or whatever.
So round about your R22 will be worth $174,000 on the days market .
A few other things before you buy said machine to take into acount. In your maintenance costs you have a scedualled and an unscedualled maintence probability. In your 1st 700 hours you wont use bugger all of your unscedualled costs. In you 2nd 700 hours (ie 700-1400hours) you will use some of your unscedualled costs up. But in your 3rd 700 plus hours you will burn all the remaining unscedualled costs even the allowed for in the first 1400 hours of maintenace. Beware to factor in those unused costs when buying useder machine.

[cyclic flare]

Having owned and operated lots of 22's we always worked ther value out at £20k for the hull and £40 per hour anyone know the formula for the 44 ??

thanks