SAA Pilots leaving ??

[skychick2]

How true is it that 6 of SAA pilots (fo's) has just resigned to join various other airlines outside the country ?? Rumour doing the rounds has it that it's due to many reasons ''other'' than just the poor state that the airline is finds itself in.

Anyone else heard similar talks doing the rounds??

Maybe the ME airlines have been waiting for this to happen !! :ok:

[ERASER]

SC, wait till end September, October and November 07 when the junior staff at SAA gets to re-negotiate their "conditions of employment".

E

[skychick2]

E,,
''Junior staff'',are you reffering now to the ''office-admin''people,or cabin crew?

Maybe this is what Khaya and his''Destructoring''team wants to happen......less peolple to"lay"off ??????

SC 2 :rolleyes:

[ERASER]

The word "junior staff" at SAA include all non management levels, Pilots, Technical, admin/ground staff & cabin crew.

E

[skychick2]

Like I said in my first post... looks like the ''sandpit'' might be becoming an ''attraction'' again amongst the pilots!! Especially now that you will basically be sitting as a co-pilot almost indefinitely and with expected poor working conditions and remuneration!!

[JetNut]

Not a rumour, this is now fact.:hmm:

At least six have resigned so far this year. Going to Jetstar, Qatar, Emirates, Etihad, Kingfisher.

Two years from now when management realise the kak they've gotten themselves in through moronic management decisions and the fact that 100 pilots were to be hired in 2007 alone...there's going to be an intake of 200 hour comm pilots...watch this space....

[nugpot]

there's going to be an intake of 200 hour comm pilots

If you can find any that still want to work for SAA...........:E

[Greeson]

Yes I know this is my first post. That out of the way, six pilots a year, if the feeder airlines (you know who you are) could get a turnover like that they'd be smiling. You mention crew leaving for Kingfisher. Thats one pilot. One pilot/319 instructor that has been had for jippoing his hours and may be sued by SACAA for fraud. What a loss.

[sbh684b]

Greeson I hope u have your facts right.;)
I now all the SAA pilots and hope that this is not true ragarding the A319 pilot jippoing his hours.

[Sir Osis of the river]

sbh648b,

If you know "ALL" the SAA pilots personally, then you will know that there are, as in many other airlines around the world, a few who have "creative addition" practices when it comes to hours.

Jetnut, have not heard of any going to Etihad or Qatar. Interviews maybe, but no start dates.

[bianchi]

Haven't heard of anyone going to Etihad or Qatar either( I think after''TA's''feedback about 2 years ago from Qatar the boyz will stay away from there:ooh:).


I know of a another very fine gentleman leaving end Oct for Cathay "Freighters'',based in I think Manchester.........so who knows,the resignations might start coming in.......?????

Goodluck to all leaving!!

[sbh684b]

Sir Osis of the river u are right, its just if it is true I dont want to know who it is as it would be a big shame.

[square leg]

Hi,

Can someone define cooking the books please?

For example if you're flying from CPT to LON with a three FCM complement, do you as P1 log the entire flight even though some of the hours were spent in the bunk? What about the P2, does FCM P2 log the entire flight as well? And P3? Or do all FCM only log seat time at controls?

How does SAA or the SACAA look at logbooks of other countries where the policy is to allow logging of all block time, i.e. including time in the bunk?
Do they say: "You're jippoing your logbook, don't apply for a licence/job" or do they respect other countries/carriers policies on logging ALL block time including bunk time.

After all the flight wouldn't have departed without each FCM, so I don't see why each FCM can't log all the block time.

Appreciate your answers. Thank you.

(grammar edit)

[nugpot]

so I don't see why each FCM can't log all the block time.


This should be good to watch............

[Sir Osis of the river]

Right or wrong,

The SACAA accepts all these hours logged by people flying for foreign carriers. (Or maybe they have just never looked into it properly, or worse still, don't care?).

Regarding SAA, I have no idea what their policy is. (Who in their right mind would want to go fly there anyway, if they were already working for a foreign longhaul carrier?)

[saywhat]

Yes, there are resignations taking place. It's typical South African attitude. At the first sign of a rumour, there has to be a knee jerk reaction. I say good luck to them. Those that stay will realise that the rumour is not nearly as bad as the reality. (This is my opinion, and I might be wrong).

wrt Hours, It makes absolutely no difference how you log your hours (including or excluding bunk time). It is of no consequence, as the person looking at the logbook can see immediately what your method of logging is. I would say that employers are more impressed with the amount of sectors you have done, and if those sectors are as P1, P2 or P3.

[Deskjocky]

I really cant see the attraction of an SAA FO wanting to go work in the desert- aside from earlier command? Also Kingfisher….seriously?? :eek:

[Q4NVS]

Maybe a few at the moment:

1. 13 Years versus 36 Months for Command
2. Uncertainty about the Long Term Future of SAA (post 2010)
3. TIA (This is Africa) and all that goes with it...

Finally, in Life there is not a single person that will generally make a decision which he/she does not believe to be in their best interest at the time.

(Even a Criminal from Zim or wherever believes this, when he/she pulls the trigger in order to feed a family "at home" - being Morally correct is a different subject though) :\

That's why humans are mostly unique.

:sad:

[Avi8tor]

I know of a another very fine gentleman leaving end Oct for Cathay "Freighters'',based in I think Manchester.........so who knows,the resignations might start coming in.......?????


http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/Cathay_Pacific_Cargo_Pilot_Pay.php

NO F/O at SAA can AFFORD to leave to go to CXF. Even with 4 yrs to command thats a none starter. The only reason u would leave is for family/personal reasons. But that would involve a HUGE cut in lifestyle.

Please, lets not turn this into a moan about crime in SA.

[Deskjocky]

From where Im sitting I tend to agree, guys/ladies who want to leave the country for whatever reason will do so at a time that suits them- perhaps said departures are merely coincidental then?

[TooBadSoSad]

I'm an SAA SFO and I'm considering all my options. SAA is no longer an airline in which I can maintain a sense of pride or where I see a future for myself. I will be moving on in the near future. And there are many of my fellow FO's who are waiting for interviews with EK, Oasis and various other airlines and they will leave. I know of one FO who just resigned to join Jetstar, another who is on course with Oasis, and many more on the verge of resigning as soon as the various job offers come in.

[skychick2]

A bit off the original topic here:

I haven't been back on PPRUNE since my last reply to Eraser #5 , by the looks of things this thread sure got a lot of attention if one has to go by the number of ''views-strikes'' and replies !

I think by the replies so far, it does look like the FO's are looking around---a ''thing'' that was quiet for a number of years appears to be ''waking up'' again !!:rolleyes:

SC2 !

[Avi8tor]

The problem all SAA FO's will have is matching the money. And at the end of the day, thats whats counts. :}

Even with the no tax status in the UAE, for an SAA FO its not worth it. Also he will have to fly 85 to 100 hard hours.

Remember there is loads of people waiting for their jobs.

[JetNut]

The problem all SAA FO's will have is matching the money


that is a fact. And if any of the rumours regarding pilot salaries ever come to fruition...then there will be nothing holding anyone back.

But, the reality is, I seriously doubt SAA management will consider such a move in the current labour environment. Maybe 5 years ago when world aviation was stagnating.....but then again, management is known to make decisions contrary to current international norms...aah well...guess farming is starting to look quite attractive.:}

[Greeson]

SAA is no longer an airline in which I can maintain a sense of pride or where I see a future for myself. I will be moving on in the near future.
Hey pal,with that attitude the sooner you leave the better. Dont forget all the guys out there that would give their left nut just to get an airline job. Many of us cant leave for reasons like age, family etc. And many of just dont want to. How many times has SAA been in the sh-t. Its been struggling for 30 years and will struggle on for at least another 30. If you want to leave for safety reasons or are concerned about your family, well thats a different story,but you made no mention of that.
Bon voyage.Give someone who actually wants it a chance.

[TooBadSoSad]

Greeson, that is not called an attitude, it is called reality. I also have a family and I am also not on the youthful side of the age curve, but this time SAA management is going to use "you" to get out of the sh-t, and you won't be working for the same airline you have for the last 30 years. Even Captains are looking at moving, and not just a few either.

When you have a wage freeze for the next few years (effectively an annual wage cut of 8% or more), start flying 80 hard hours per month (every month), have your S&T reduced so much that you have to pay in just to eat two meals a day overseas, stay in 2 to 3 star hotels, your leave is reduced to 20 "business" days per month, you get 14 days sick leave per year, and have your travel benefits reduced to the point that it's a pain in the ass to use them, and then your airline gets hit with another R300 million fine because some overpaid and under-qualified cargo exec decided to screw around with cargo fuel levies, and the airline adds that to the "gap" they want labour to make up!! :ugh:

Are you proud of the airline you work for? Does the most deserving pilot get hired when the airline is employing? Are our customers happy? Look in the mirror, mate, and see if your shirt is still on your back because your management is taking you for all they can. :ouch:

[Frogman1484]

Am I understanding this correctly, are you guys saying that the salary at SAA is more than at EK? :uhoh::confused:

[stratocumulus]

Or EY?????

[Speed Managed]

What is about to happen in SAA, is exactly what occured in the SAAF in the early '90's.

Then, the SAAF HQ were out of touch with the turn in the aviation market and during the restructuring (or rather 'destructuring') handed out packages to pilots. Within a year they were losing pilots hand over fist, and had a severe shortage of pilots. (The expertise they had, they will never replace)

I think, with what is happening in SAA today and managements restructuring proposals, it's going to create the same vacuum. I agree totally with TooBadSoSad regarding the state of the airline and with the upswing in the worlds airline industry, there is going to be alot of pilot resignations over the near to middle term.

Some might say, thats great, it will create more opportunities for people who wish to stay here. However, only once you are in SAA, you may realise that all is not what it is made out to be, or was. And you may start wondering wether SAA is the airline career you are looking for or merely just another stepping stone. Which in that case, you would rather have gone to Comair,Nationwide, etc, got a far quicker command instead of sitting 3 years as a P3 and made yourself more marketable internationally!

Unfortunately as long as SAA remains a government run airline, making political decisions and not business decisions, a long term career at SAA looks rather bleek.

[Antman]

As a matter of intrest, what are these stratospheric salaries at SAA anyway.
By my calculations, the guys that started at SAA when I started at Comair, circa 1996 are still waiting for there commands, currently I am a Captain on step 5 at EK, so as far as my conteparies go I think I'm way ahead.Apples with Apples guys & girls
When on a trip I'm also secure in the knowledge that 99% that my house won't be broken into, car stolen and most important my family won't be hi-jacked raped or murdered.

P.S Aviator do you fly for EK or just believe everything you hear?

[Greeson]

TooBadSoSad, I wont deny you have some very valid points. The thing is we are used to SAA being bashed by bitter non-SAA pilots, not from within. I was at the meeting the other day, I heard same 'cost cutting' plan from the management. The difference is that if you have your heart set on leaving and you surround yourself with like minded colleagues,you add fuel to each others fires, get yourselves all worked up to the point where you are miss some of the good stuff around you. And before everyone says,"What good stuff?",well you'll just prove my point.

Good luck pal,hope you never regret it. More so I hope you're senior to me so I can scratch you off the list.

[Avi8tor]

I am a Captain on step 5 at EK, so as far as my conteparies go I think I'm way ahead.Apples with Apples guys & girls

Think your not comaparing 'apples with apples'. Are you in or out of the housing scheme? Take your salary over the last 11yrs compared to theirs and then project it over the next 10. Also look at hours worked and excedence pay etc. Look at total package, leave, rebates etc. I agree the tax-free status does help correct some of that.

Sorry friend, think in money terms ur way behind. Also would rather live in Waterkloof Ridge than Jumeira.

But agreed, what price do you put on personal/family saftey?

Oh yes, I believe nothing that I hear or read and only half of what I see.

[taperlok]

Very strong rumour that last month 12 - 15 FO were in Dubai for interviews.
Fleet manager for 738 got a call from Emirates. As I started. A rumour:confused:

[Whenwe]

It is not only the airline, not only the crime, the safety etc.
I know one of your F/O's that left last month for the sandpit because it got to the point where he was without electricity for a long time. The old cliche about the straw that broke the camil's back. Add to that the Manto/Zuma circus.....
When last did you last travel as a pax in your aircraft, I mean in the back? The only reason I fly SAA into Africa is because of you guys upfront.

I am an ex employee of SAA and I am waiting for my Visa.

[fluffyfan]

TooBadSoSad..............bye bye, I hope you are above me on the seniority list, good luck.

I was in Hong Kong a few weeks ago, and if you think SAA is the only company with problems think again, very unhappy people there, as there seems to be in virtually every airline in the world, I think pilots are wingers by nature.

One word of advice if I may be so bold, do not take what you have for granted, there are people out there who would give there left nut (as so eloquently put by Greeson) to have your job, maybe you dont appreciate how hard it is to get into SAA, where you in the SAAF? did you just walk into SAA? try contract flying for a few years you may think differently after that experience.

The more the better I say, as long as they are above me on the seniority list, hopefully enough will leave to offset the greedy old buggers who now want to work to 65.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

How does the South African Airways pension scheme compare with any others on offer.
If you were a pilot with SAA at the moment, are you effectively guarenteed employment with the company until pensionable age?
Do these two criteria apply to any of the other airlines under consideration for a move.
Could you ever save sufficiently to provide an equivalent value to the SAA pension?
For how long is it going to be as easy as it may be at the moment to transit jobs from one country/airline to another?

Just four idle thoughts or unanswered questions that have arisen on the basis of a recent conversation with a good friend who is a Captain at SAA.:)

[Beta Light]

Antman I think you are correct in the fact that it is not “Apple’s / Apple’s “comparisons. I know the high tax in S.A. make the pre tax figures look good. According to the Sunday Times on the 19th August the cost of living in S.A. is set to increase drastically over the next couple of years. Half percent interest rate to come in October, on top of the one a month ago.
My parents are pensioners and they feel it every month.
The difference is that if you have your heart set on leaving and you surround yourself with like minded colleagues,you add fuel to each others fires, get yourselves all worked up to the point where you are miss some of the good stuff around you.
A couple of my friends in S.A.A. are looking, not by choice but by the fact that they don’t see a medium or long term future at S.A.A. They are not negative, just very realistic to what is happening. One of them have been on some sort of “New Captain meet and greet” with management a couple of months ago, was verbally told Command would start in August, (his date of joining was 1995) It has now been postponed indefinitely due to the 747-400 Captains being redeployed.
We ran the CX Freighter figures and it is a good proposition, keeping in mind he can ask for Command upgrade after a year on the 400. The CX crews are negotiating for better conditions while S.A.A. will see conditions slide.
Rather cut the losses now then fighting the crowd in 4 years seems to be the general feeling. The end of the year will tell when the new conditions will be known. EY is starting an A320 operation and I know of 3 Captains who have been invited to interviews.
Sorry friend, think in money terms ur way behind. Also would rather live in Waterkloof Ridge than Jumeira
Not sure if your figures is correct, but this will definitely not be the case over the next 10 years.
Let’s not going on the “living in Waterkloof Ridge debate”. The last two S.A. Newspapers I read out of JNB (20th Aug) was The STAR headline: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH (in bald letters)
The BEELD: BLOEBAD (bloodbath) IN PRETORIA. This referred to the murders in Brooklyn , around the corner from Waterkloof, in high security complexes.
Yes, the CX boys are comlpaining, but did you listen to what they complain about?? Complaining with cake in their mouths. But I guess if the company show record profits, with heaps of new aircraft on order you have a right to make demands. I flew with a couple of ex -SAA guys and non of them would think of going back, even though they are part of the whingers.

[BMM389EC]

I was in Hong Kong a few weeks ago, and if you think SAA is the only company with problems think again, very unhappy people there.....

fluffyfan...Not really problems here. Just the usual airline politics. As for there being unhappy people here you shouldnt go by what certain people say. Best move I've ever made....

[thincatblue]

Cant agree more with Beta light - The current salary package at SAA makes life a little more bearable in SA -eg one can afford the extra security and private schooling, however, if what is projected by the restructuring guys and management becomes true (salary cut and severly cut conditions of service) this is going to force a lot of pilots at SAA to look else where.

The irony of this restructuring is that it is a common fact (?!) that the current situation that SAA finds itself in, has been caused by mis management by the top structure of politically appointed managers. After all is said and done by the restructuring team the same management and political masters are still going to be in charge - so anyone can draw their own conclusions.

I wish everyone well with their own personal choice

[FFFrentit]

Guys, the slow but steady drain of pilots from this country has really been most visible in the "other" non SAA airlines. The symptoms that they have experienced have all been the same, irrespective of the company involved, ie politics, state of the nation, management practises, salary issues, working conditions, promotion prospects, etc. It was only a matter of time before these same symptoms became an issue at SAA.

Everyone just wants a safe and prosperous career with a secure future for themselves and their families. When you couple the scene in South Africa with our aviation market, it's no surprise that the guys are looking outside our borders to secure their future. The world is wide open for SA pilots and unless the general situation in South Africa improves, along with working conditions, career prospects, etc, in the airlines, the boys are going to go.

Anybody that swears allegiance to a company is only fooling himself. There is only one person that is going to look after your future and happiness and that's you! All airlines have their problems - it's up to you to decide which problems are acceptable to you and which ones are not. Nobody else can determine that for you. The grass may not be greener on the other side, just a different flavour and I can't blame guys for making the choice to try it out.

If you're going to move, now is the time with the world crying out for pilots.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Aviation in SA typically follows the cycles in developed countries with a two to three year lag.

Whilst The US, Canada, Europe and Asia are just starting to feel the pilot shortage squeeze, it will be a few years coming in SA.

Watch for large incentives for current employees in legacy carriers to stay and inducements to join for those on the outside. Don't be too hasty in leaving SA - things will improve. If you're hell-bent on getting out, wait a little while for the dust to settle (and it will) and then make your move to a settled, comfortable, well-paid life elsewhere. The real questions are:

1. Do you have the resources and fortitude to wait it out (2 years IMHO).
2. What will you ultimately gain by leaving for "greener pastures" like EK and O8? Remember that you'll lose seniority (being at the bottom of the list again really sucks), you'll be a stranger in a strange land, your wife and kids will be displaced (happy wife - happy life, remember) and worst of all, limited boerrie and biltong!
3. Do you really know what you're getting yourself into? Have you been to DXB and felt what 48 degrees in the shade feels like - for six months at a stretch? Have you ever tried to reason with an Indian Crew Controller who really only wants to see that the roster is full? Have you sucked polluted air in HKG for three months at a time, imprisoned by the air conditioning, praying that your kids asthma will improve? Do you know what it's like to spend a day - or a week - not speaking to anyone - because no-one understands you or speaks English? Have you ever paid a dollar (US) for a tomato or 5 bucks for a miserable packet of (tasteless) wieners?

The expat life is not for everyone - only a few have what it takes to "just do it". The notice boards at CX are chock-a-block with japies begging for basing buddies so that they can spend a few months "at home", falling over eachother in the bids for JNB flights. Everyone (all 67 at last count) becomes your best mate - jumpseat requests, meat orders, that small "packet" from Mum when you do get that elusive JNB flight...not all that great, by the way - 12 hours over, 24 hours in what has to be the worst crew hotel I have ever stayed in - and 12 hours back.

Think carefully, and always remember that there's a reason the grass is greener over there.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Will things improve or will SAA look to the north to replace any departing First Officers and recruit from the ranks of Air Zimbabwe?:suspect:

[Ketek400]

Yes sure it is warm here in the desert, but we are prepared for it. A/C all over and everywhere. The place where I have been most uncomfortable ever has been in SA. It gets warm and cold, neither of the two have SA been ever prepared for. In winter you burn the gas heater and in summer you cant wait for 2am so it will cool down so you can go to sleep!

In DXB it is always the same because we are well equiped. It is 47 C outside at the moment and I must say I just switched my a/c down a tad.

Traffic is bad, but not even close to the f...up at William Nicol! At least we are getting new roads and public transport which actually will work and on time.

Yes it is expensive and not like home. Rememer home is a great place for holiday and much cheaper now!! Half price! Cheap cheap, eish.

Then comes the winter here in DXB and it feels like spring in SA. Brilliant. Yes I miss the crime.....NOT. Nice to know I will have the choice to fly an A380 0r B748.

Yes I miss the boerrie and billies, maybe I will just hop onto one of the 3 flight to JNB today. Or maybe tomorrow seeing that I have 3 days off.

Live is what you make of it and it is all about choices. I have made maine and loving it. Dont do what I did, but do what you want and tell us what you like about it.

Happy flying guys and gals.

[Gigajoules]

Slightly off topic here, but how will the current financial instability at SAA influence aircraft maintenance standards? Yes yes, I know pilots don't do maintenance:}

[volare_737]

I must say I never really post on here.We got all the guys her posting from the middle east, far east, south Africa and so on.
How really cares – it seems to me – everybody posting on here has to justify there decisions. Who cares if you went to Ek, Catahy or wherever. . That’s you proplem.
Its just a guess – but most pilots – as far as I know – can think, and make decisions.
It’s the ones who make the wrong decisions , who have to make a point all the time.

[thincatblue]

Capt Underpants,

I admire your optimism, however I need to remind you that one violent crime against you and your family changes all - irreversably, and your chances of this happening in SA is so much greater than other places mentioned.

The grass is greener because of the manure- at least there IS grass and manure, and not stolen, nationalized or broken.

[saywhat]

Well, I'm definitely going, or else I might stay for sure..........:):):)

[Beta Light]

The expat life is not for everyone - only a few have what it takes to "just do it". The notice boards at CX are chock-a-block with japies begging for basing buddies so that they can spend a few months "at home", falling over eachother in the bids for JNB flights. Everyone (all 67 at last count) becomes your best mate - jumpseat requests, meat orders, that small "packet" from Mum when you do get that elusive JNB flight...

Capt. Underpants, I just want to point out a few FACTS, Firstly the notice board at CX City is NOT chock a block with JNB basing requests. Last year I saw one for the Airbus and one for the 400. The one for the Airbus was up for a while as there were not many takers. One of the unique features of the C.X. system is the fact that there is a temp. basing system. At the moment there is more South Africans on temp. basing’s in Europe and North America, and I did not see anyone on a temp basing in S.A at the moment. I also had a look at the master roster and from today until end Sept. I only saw 2 requests for JNB flights. (I only looked at F/O roster to get an idea as I think most S.A.’s fall in this category) The JNB flight is wide open for swaps with non S.A’s.
Temp Basings a great way to travel and requests is a great way to go and play a cheap round of golf and win some money of your friends.
As far as shopping go I found the fact that most food is imported, the choice in the shops like CitySuper and Taste is better then in S.A. As for price, if you get paid here you can afford it. Once again look at the economist’s forecast regarding cost of living in S.A. for the following year.
We all have different comfort zones, but remember: You regret more the things you did not do then the once you did.
Cannot comment on the EK remarks as all my friends over there are happy.
not all that great, by the way - 12 hours over, 24 hours in what has to be the worst crew hotel I have ever stayed in - and 12 hours back.
Personally I have not stayed in the Indaba Hotel, but what I do know it could not be worse then most places I stayed in Africa on contract. The reason the company stay at the Indaba is due to the fact that the hotel has a 10 foot wall and electric fence around the outdoor area, this make the cabin crew feel save as they are all very concerned about their personal safety as S.A. is the port on the network they feel the least safe. Sad but true

[Frogman1484]

Captain Underpants, I think you have forgotten to say is that the notice begging guys to do a temp base in JNB was there because you cannot get enough guys to put their family in a crime ridden county for two months. Out of 60+ Japies you only need 4 to make a temp base. If you cannot get that out of 60+ you need to think what the real issues are in SA.
Personally I have not seen people falling over each other for a JNB...6 day Paris yes.

[asianeagle]

7 applied for the temp base in JNB, 5 got it for Jul / Aug, some of them had to due personal reasons and one of them didnt even stay in SA! There are one or two guys who would come back given the choice but by and large, most wouldnt.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Not to get into a discussion about the Indaba, but the reason it's behind 10ft high barbed/electrified fences "patrolled" by their inadequate "security" is because it's 3 km from possibly the most dangerous slum/temporary settlement/squatter camp in the whole of Gauteng(?) - Diepsloot(?). There is a shebeen (?) outside the main gate, hookers patrol the area and if you want to score some MJ, well, just ask the pump jockeys at the gas station. For you, special price.

What, may I ask, is wrong with the Sandton Sun/Holiday Inn/Intercontinental/Hilton where the crew are safe, unthreatened, able to move without relying on inadequate hotel transport and have a better choice than what is currently on offer? Money, that's what. It would cost our masters a whole $5 more per crew member per night. To hell with crew safety and security. Need I remind you of the crime stats in Johannesburg or whatever it's being called these days?

I do remember being put up at the Sandton Sun, and we were moved for "security" reasons to that other dreadful hotel in Centurion - the one that used to flood when the stream overflowed! It's been a steady, downhill slide since then.

The next time you do a JNB flight, just ask the girls what they're doing while they're there - I do - for the most part, they spend it cowering in their hotel rooms. They're petrified - with good reason - of the consequences of stepping outside the 10ft high electrified security fence.

Anyway, I digress. To each his own, but be aware of what you're letting yourself into.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
That is an absolutely accurate assessment of the Indaba Hotel, which used to be the Fourways Garden hotel and before that the Little Roseneath. Furthermore, as the Zimbabweans move southwards from their promised land to the city of gold, the first big urban encampment they will find will be just next door.
The bottle store, next door to the hotel, which used to have its own liquor shop, has closed. Not for lack of business but for other, somewhat more obvious reasons.
It's still an excellent location at rush hour if you want to buy firearms from any one of the myriad taxi drivers whose mini buses are parked alongside the road.:ooh:

[Frogman1484]

7 out of 67 applying for the base is hardly what I call a stampede, and by the way all our girls do is sit in their room, fold the money and watch CNN. No matter where they are.

[Frogman1484]

Lets face it once you leave SA you realize that it is a great place to go on Holiday but that there is life after SA. Great place to go on a 24 hour trip...more fun than in LHR or the USA, but to live there full time putting up with all of the social problems and the crime once you have gotten used to living in a semi normal place like HKG it is difficult.

[saywhat]

When will you idiots realize that there is not a right or wrong answer here. If you go - great. If you stay, - great. But for God's sake, stop bleating about what other people did or didn't do. I personally don't give a rats arse about anyone's personal decisions they make in life, but I do take offence when they infer that I have done wrong. My life - I'll live it.

[asianeagle]

7 out of 67 applying for the base is hardly what I call a stampede


67 is also only the SA guys on SA passports, what about the others on foreign passports, probably another 67.

[Beta Light]

We are way of the topic here, if you want to discuss hotel etc. lets move it to the fragrant harbor forum. My last word on it is in agreement with Frogman and cheetah, But they don’t watch CCN, its Bloomberg, just ask them the exchange rates anytime of night.
Capt. Under a lot have changed from the days we left the Sandton / Pretoria Hotels. Even these hotel now advice tourists to be careful and provide escorts on shopping trips. Especially Asians are prime targets; saw in the South China Morning Post a Chinese citizen was killed on the East Rand a couple of days ago. The Cabin Crew I spoke to said if they move Hotels anywhere in JNB they will request the highest floor as they feel that is the safest. Shows you the perception visitors have of the place.
The Indaba is with in the standards as agreed to by the AOA, (same standards as most legacy carriers) if you don’t like it join up and get pro active.

Back to the topic:
They are not leaving yet, hoping for a miracle, but they sure are window shopping more then most people realize.


P.S. Correct Asian Eagle, the first "Green passports" was excepted in approx 1998.

[thincatblue]

Hey Saywhat, don't be so sensitive, what we have here is generally called a "discussion", no one (I believe) is saying that your specific choice or course of action is wrong - the folks are airing their views- and one would always find all extremes being aired. It is healthy debate and could possibly help/influence a mind set or decision to be made. Good luck with yours.

[fluffyfan]

Beta Light

The Indaba is an absolute :mad: hole and I was very very surprised to hear that you guys stay there, I lived down the road from that place a while ago and Cpt. Underpants has a fair assesment of the place.

There is no way in hell you would find SAA crew living in a :mad: hole like that (yes maybe thats why we dont make a profit...lets not go there) but SAA crew generally stay in similar hotels to other airlines around the world. Its obvious that Cathay is trying to save costs but good god, which moron said ok to the Indaba. By the way I believe your retirement age is going from 55 to 65 in one shot? so how long to command now, my mates working there estimate about 10 years to command...just asking its what I have heard.

SAA has abot 850 pilots, yes thats small compared to Cathay and most others, I have heard of 2 maybe 3 guys that have left, maybe a few others doing JAA licences, thats less than 1% of the total SAA crew numbers, lets not get all excited here and make a big thing about nothing, I know of a number of guys who left and basically begged to come back. I am quite happy at SAA with no intention of leaving, I am glad you are happy at Cathay, I like to come there occasionally and do what people do in Hong Kong, but I do not think I could live there with my family, I could if I had to but not by choice, as for Emirates, there is no way in hell you would find me there, yes nice aircraft, expansion, short wait to command, but lets factor in its a desert, its :mad: hot, its full of Arabs, expats are second class citizens, 90% probablity that your wife will move back to SA or the UK and live there while you sweat it out in the desert, you work damn hard and finally if your kids do live with you at age 20 (or 18 whatever it is) they are required to leave.........nice place, no thanks.

[Beta Light]

Once again the question was “Pilots leaving S.A.A”. All I am saying after talking to some old class mates is………..watch this space.
I will respond to your questions regarding hotels and age 65, but I think after this we should move it to a different forum, as not only is it of topic, but maybe there will be more input from colleges that are more up to date on the topics.
As far as the Hotel’s go, we have, through the union, minimum standards that the hotels need to comply with. It is better then most legacy carriers. I found it astounding that these regulations even stipulate that the bedding have to be either cotton or silk!! As for the surroundings outside the wall there is no regulation. As B.A. recently discovered in India when the Captain cancelled the flight due to insufficient crew rest due to noise from a cricket match outside the hotel.
As I mentioned earlier I have never stayed in the hotel but as far as I understand it is not the Indaba hotel, but location. Unfortunately JNB is seen as a third world port, due to it being the port with the highest number of stolen, lost and damaged bags per seat on our network. Been a victim of it myself three times.
The company also have contract with most hotels that is a distance away from shopping malls to provide the crew with transport on a regular schedule to shopping malls. Indaba, LAX and Paris to name a few.
All hotels have a CX crew lounge including free broadband computers, unlimited use to the crew. I wont call this cost saving, as the once I use most CDG,LHR, Vancouver, Manilla etc. are the size of 3 regular rooms. I don’t know how many company’s provide similar facility’s.
Most hotels only have limited rooms for airline, as they only see us as good during the low season to keep occupancy up. I bit like the cheap tickets advertised on the Low Cost Carriers.
Over the last 3 or 4 years a lot of the destinations increased from daily to 3 daily flights, some are planned for 7 daily ( LAX being one, and looking for more slots at LHR). These crews overlap which necessitate a lot of extra rooms. Sometimes the hotels willing to take so many crews are hard to find, as crew are not big spenders in the hotels. To keep logistics simple it is preferred to keep crew together in one hotel. Remember our crews are on different patterns and different bases. Something most airlines don’t have to deal with.
Age 65 will have a very minimal impact on upgrades. The problem is the training system can only handle so much, and with the expansion and the number of aircraft arriving we unfortunately need the + 65 ers to crew these airframes. If the 65 ers go your mates will not have a command any sooner, you will just see more parked jets. They want to grow the fleet by close to 50%. No training department can handle this. The slow down, if any, will be worth it if you can add 10 years to your career, were all going to get to 55 wishing for 65. We are negotiating from a position of strength. The union just rejected the first company proposal.

I am NOT A COMPANY MAN, but
a) I have the right to leave – so have your friends if they are not happy.
b) I remember where I came from. Do I want to go back NOT – maybe your friends can go back and be happy at their previous employer
c) Have the company met my expectation? Not really, but the lifestyle sure make up for it.
I can tell you that S.A.A. and the country have not delivered on expectation to my mates who joined around the 1995 -1998 mark. It was the Promised Land, the rainbow nation, the airline that is now free from sanctions. The airline that was going to criss cross the globe. New routes and more frequency, commands was going to be in record time.
And the rest is history.

Deskjockey might be able to comfirm /deny this, But has S.A.A. now less routes /aircraft /capacity then 15 years ago, as a friend in S.A.A. claim??

I admire the loyalty of most S.A.A. crew, and I really hope it work out, firstly for some really good friends, and secondly to the benefit of aviation.
Unfortunately the indicators are bleak, and like the stock exchange people need confidence to invest.

[journeyman]

fluffyfan,
Interesting assessment of EK. By someone who hasn't spent any significant length of time there, I'll bet. Let me set the record straight.

Sure it's hot, but certainly not 48 degrees for six months as some other meteorologically-challenged person asserted.

Full of Arabs? They make up 18% of the total population. You have many more illegal Zimbabweans, trust me.Treated as second-class citizens? Personally, I have never felt discriminated against. Do you feel like you get treated with respect, especially by the public services in SA?

90% chance the family is going to live elsewhere? Do you just suck this cr@p out of your thumb, or do you actually believe everything you hear in the pub? Yes, people commute. But 90%? Even you aren't that stupid, surely.
As far as the children are concerned, once they reach 19, they need to be on a work permit (sponsored - applies to boys only, I think). However, in reality, people tend to send their kids to university abroad anyway as most of the schools prep to UK or US tertiary standards. Obviously, if they choose to return to the UAE to work, they are welcome to do so.

Each to their own. Work for whomever you choose. But crank the bullsh*t down a notch or two, lest you look a tad simple.

[Cpt. Underpants]

OK, well maybe 5 days during Ramalamadingdong jut felt like 48 degrees for six months!
http://www.virginholidays.co.uk/brochures/worldwide/_assets/images/weather_charts/resort/dubai.gif

Meteorologically-challenged...I've been called a lot of things in my life, but never that. OK, I was out by a few degrees, but I'm sure that the original respondent gets the general idea.

[journeyman]

Cpt,
By your own statistics, you were out by an average of 10 degrees. Using that rationale, I could state that the average summertime temp in Cape Town is 12 degrees. Okay, I'm out by a little, but you get the general idea....

Thank goodness it isn't that hot and we can still flex most of the time - with the temps that you quoted, it might've shaved off a good couple of million from the bottom line, and we would've only made a R6 billion profit last year - I shudder to think...

[skychick2]

Beta Light, I admire your optimism!
Few people are able to keep focussing on the positive elements of their circumstances while we are surrounded by a lot of negative conditions, news, rumours.

I'm not speaking for the 'the greedy old buggers who now want to work to 65' but many of the FO's are disillusioned. As pointed out, the guys who joined in the late 90's feel done in. The desire to being a captain after 10 years or more becomes overriding when you hear that 63 is now becoming 65 and you see your turn in the left-hand seat being pushed out indefinitely.

Yes, this thread is raising some valid considerations - positive and negative, and I support the comment by Thincatblue, hopefully the opinions raised in this thread will help some FO's out there who are in the process of making the tough decision to either wait it out until they become a capatin, or leave, become a FO for a while, sacrifice the lifestyle for the unknown, and at least know that after 3-4 years you WILL get your command - tough call.

But is becoming a captain the be-all and end-all? The package and opportunities that come with it sure are attractive :O

[TooBadSoSad]

FluffyFan, try 796 pilots from a high of 816 a few months ago and 7 resigned last month!! And, yes, you are junior to me and when I leave you will move up one place. Also, I paid for all my flight training myself and spent over two years flying on contracts all over the less savoury parts of this world, so don't assume you know me!! Even though you do!! I was hired by SAA on merit and will leave because I can.

Did you even bother going to the SAAPA AGM or were you sitting at home with your head in the sand. How much attention are you paying if you are off on the total pilot numbers by over 50??:confused:

[Speed Managed]

Fluffyfan, I truely admire your patriotism towards the company and SA. However I have to agree with TooBad.
I have over ten years with SAA, and I have no clew when command will be, and actually have got to the point where I really don't care.

You see it's not about the command, it's about flying for an airline that is dynamic, expanding and shows a promising, rewarding career. SAA has none of that. Since '94, aviation in SA and to SA has grown immensly, SAA has got smaller! There has been no business plan, in fact every new management (dictated to by government) has made SAA more of a shambles!

In my opinion although we the pilots, through SAAPA have voiced our lack of confidence in management on many occassions, we have accepted their shortcomings due to rather good working conditions and the way of life we have enjoyed.
Now, you obviously are not on the SAAPA email list and unaware of the companies intentions to change your remuneration and working conditions immensly. That with the slow deterioration of the way of life in SA, gives any SAA pilot a great reason to look elsewhere.

So, to many this could be 'the straw that broke the camels back!'
I don't know where you've been, but the talk in the corridors at Airways Park and even amongst my contempories who I might add are relatively 'close' to command, is "where are you sending your CV?"

So yes, relatively not too many resignations of late, but standby, watch this space! You will probably be able to scratch mine and alot more names off the seniority list and work your way right to the top. Enjoy the ride, I really hope it's worth it!

[fluffyfan]

TooBadSoSad
Good for you, good luck then enjoy your new career, please just dont become one of those bitter expates who now believe you have to justify your chosen path and attack SAA and SA at every opportunity.
journeyman
If EK is good for you then thats where you should be, I am quite happy at SAA, yes lots of negatives at the moment, there were negatives at every other airline that has gone through the restructuring process, who knows if we will survive, maybe , maybe not but I cannot see a better standard of living anywhere else than where I am at present......note...."at present" if things change I may have to evaluate and follow in TooBadSoSad's footsteps my escape route would be Europe as I have the passport, the desert just does not do it for me. Let me ask you are there for good or just there to make the money? do you plan on retiring there in paradise?
The whole point of this thread was "SAA pilots leaving" the implication was that there is a mass exodus because the company is doomed, I dont think this is the case, if you fly with the negative types they will convince you its doomed, if you fly with the positive types they will convince your there is hope, I think the negative types will be unhappy wherever they are. I am optimistic, the restructuring process has scared everyone but without it SAA had no future.

TooBadSoSad
I am on the mailing list, and I was at the meeting......lets not panic, thats how negotiations always start, they start there side we start our side and hopefully we meet in the middle somewhere, yes we may need to give a little, the other option is that we just dont exist anymore, and I know its was not our fault and poor management etc etc, I will wait and see, the world has a serious pilot shortage so there are lots of jobs out there, I will wait for the dust to settle, this panic actually suits me the more people that leave the better......good luck to them hope they are all higher than me on the list.

[777Contrail]

FluffyFan, you said it.

You have the passport.

So, you have a backdoor and can afford to sit back and say ''it's not that bad!''

Most South Afs can't do that. They have to think ahead and make ''other'' choices.

Yes, it's hot and sandy in the UAE. You fly ugly hours and do it east-west.

But the family is safe, the kids get proper schooling and the company has a plan and vision for the future.

Regards

[journeyman]

fluffyfan,
Firstly, it's not paradise. It's an expat job - you all plan to leave at some point.

Regarding retirement: when I left SA, the Rand was about 4 to the USD. In spite of the dollar taking some major hits over the past couple of years, the Rand has not taken advantage of it and finds itself over 7. I plan to retire outside SA, so need a major currency to bank on.

I believe there will come a time when (if you have not made sufficient provision with funds abroad and are getting on in years) it will not be fiscally viable to leave, even if you want to. Just look north of the border for your answer: in their case it took about 24 years. Do not bank on SA being any different.

I sincerely hope I'm proved wrong and that SA becomes the one lasting success story in sub-Sarahan Africa, because if you minus all the current negatives, it would be world-class in terms of liveability. At the same time however, one needs to be realistic and base decisions on the head, not the heart.

[Sir Osis of the river]

Too Bad,

I am glad to see that you have been able to be honest, since our last exchange, and have reassesed your postion re SAA. Well done and I wish you all the best with wherever you are going. As I have always stated, you have to do what is right for you.

One question: In your post on 01 April 07, you stated you flew for the military. Now you say you paid for all your own Training. What gives?

Safe Flying

[Deskjocky]

In terms of the corridor talk, I really believe people should see how the process unfolds before taking drastic decisions. Sure see how marketable you are but give it a while and see if these predictions of doom come true. To my knowledge SAAPA has not lost a fight with management, the last round over rebates was a case in point, why would it happen now?

A picture has been painted of doom and gloom, are these guys going to shut this place down if you don’t agree to fly more, earn less and stay in the City Lodge as opposed to the Sheraton?

Sure its an option, but our esteemed consultants don’t make money from shutting the place down so I think we can work on the assumption that this would be an absolute last resort and if it did come to pass it wouldn’t be because the pilots didn’t want to play ball.

Lets say even if they did decide that shut down was the way to go, having been involved in Sun Air in the days after it was shut down we had a window of opportunity to make things happen- on of the main constraints was having crew readily available, every day that passed guys went onto other jobs. Now since all SAA pilots are type rated and current on the aircraft that would be used in the new airline it would make most sense to get them back on board and since that would be the quickest route to resume operations. Coupled to the fact that the likes of EK will be courting a lot of the guys, the level of remuneration will be relevant to the external employment opportunities.

Well thats how I see it anyway.

[Avi8tor]

I think the issue is that management is going to run into problems with ALL the unions. Will be interested to see which back down and which dont. All the unions know that if they strike the airline is history. While all the staff know the government will NEVR let it go, the game is on.

I think we will still be having this kinda thread in 5 yrs and SAA will still be posting huge losses. The consultants will be long gone with their huge fee.

[Deskjocky]

The shut down option is BECAUSE of the unions. New entitiy, new contracts. What Im saying is that the pilots will be in a stong position regardless, the same cannot be said for the rest.:hmm:

[Avi8tor]

Strong position? Last time I looked SAA had piles of CV's. SAA has a hall full of simulators that they just have to pay the water and lights for. Even with a major review of terms and conditions I dont see 20% of the crew leaving.

Would be interesting if managment decided to play hard ball.

Ever tried to fly and airline without cabin crew? Look at what SAA lost with that little mess.

Its a big wheel, it cant operate without ALL the parts.

Point is that SAA management doesnt have the b:mad:lls to take on any of the unions. It will be more of the same in 5 yrs time.

[Deskjocky]

Of course you need the cabin crew, we are focusing on the pilot debate here. Again you can go out and bring in a whole new pilot pool but this will push out the timeline for a resumption of operations, which ideally would be kept to a minimum.

[ZS340]

Hmmm I am one of the greedy old buggers who believe that if I am capable, I will work for as long as I am allowed to.....Its my right. That aside there are a few aspects that really get to me at SAA.

The first is knowing that all these mismanaged decisions are not generated by ignorance but rather by a plot (pay back time) Make life as bad for them as we can. Far more important to settle old grievences than make decisions which would benefit the company.
e.g. the senior man resposible for crew planning who, overall, is worth his weight in gold has been told to go

The second is the continual negative atmosphere that we find our selves in.

The third is that I am fearfull that we are not far off an accident, heaven forbid and pray that there are no casualties. The holes in the cheese are nearly lined up.
If I was a young F/O) I too would go.....Fcuk not for EK or CX rather try to get into Cargolux or All Nippon Cargo both of these carriers treat their personell very well. That would be my first choice if I was a youngster.

Too my colleagues who choose to remain behind, we have to uphold the highest standards under trying circumstances, while these buffoons try to shnaai us in every possible way, safety first no matter what they throw or take away from us

Be Professional and Vasbyt!

PS We will hopefully still be around long after the current managment team have left......

[james ozzie]

I think Journeyman is "on the money" as they say here in Oz.
The issue is not how hot it gets in the day or how many pilots left last week - the real point is that no-one can realistically plan to retire with a Rand based portfolio. Why? Because when your pension portfolio tanks from inflation/currency devaluation, it is too late to fix it.
So the strategy is build an off-shore pension by whatever means it takes and then choose where & when you retire (hopefuly back in RSA in familiar surroundings). The rest is all detail clouding the debate.

[Bahraingeneric]

The best job is still with a national airline in the country of your birth.
It might be BA,AA or SAA - the rest are a 2nd choice AND entirely up to the individual!

Once again guys get back to the topic!

SAA is not as good as it was - nor is SA?
but its still OK
I left 12 yrs ago but still go back as often as possible.

It is still a great place and SAA is a great airline!!!

Greener grass is caused by more Sh1 T

[journeyman]

I assume you're at GF then

[Frogman1484]

Just been back to SA after a 2 year absence...could not believe on how down hill it has gone. Had to drive through back roads to avoid traffic...a lot of the suburbs around the east reminded me of Zambia 15 years ago, rundown dirty and very third world. Around fourways things looked better...I would be scared to place a bet on what happens after the 2010 world cup and Mbeki...I think the writing is on the wall!!! Crime is hideous and no way acceptable.

[777Contrail]

''The best job is still with a national airline in the country of your birth.
It might be BA,AA or SAA - the rest are a 2nd choice AND entirely up to the individual!

Once again guys get back to the topic!

SAA is not as good as it was - nor is SA?
but its still OK
I left 12 yrs ago but still go back as often as possible.

It is still a great place and SAA is a great airline!!!

Greener grass is caused by more Sh1 T''

So then the best job for an ex Rhodesian would be back in Zimbabwe flying for air Zim.........yeah right!

Reality dictates.