Conquest groundings

[Desert Duck]

It is rumoured that CASA has just issued an instruction grounding all C441's that have 22,500 hours or more from 2400hours 24 Aug 07?

[linedriva]

CASA 316/07 - Direction - Cessna 441 Conquest

On 24th August 2007, the Director of Aviation Safety signed a direction under regulation 11.245 of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998, directing that Cessna 441 aircraft (Conquest) may not be flown at any time or for any purpose while the direction is in force, unless the Director approves in writing (CASA 316/07 (http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2007/CASA316.pdf)). The instrument was lodged with the Federal Register of Legislative Instruments on 24 August 2007, was registered on 24 August and came into effect on 25 August 2007.



Does this affect many C441s operating in Aus? Does anyone know of any inflight failures or the like that may have pre-empted this move?

Just a curious first poster.

[tail wheel]

Grounded at 22,500 hrs TTIS as an ultimate airframe life.

Considering they must all be 20 plus years old, it would be reasonable to suspect it will affect the majority of Conquests in Australia.

Interesting - wonder if the Titan and/or Rheims 406 may be next?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Niether the 404 or the F406 are pressurized so they will probably run much longer. Apparently the wing spar thing is not an issue as they have a much softer landing gear.

This will have major implications for certain operators. Change is being forced upon.

[tail wheel]

SN. I was aware the Titan and 406 are both different Type Certification however the CASA Direction does not elaborate on any specific problem apart from the fact the manufacturer does not have a SID program beyond 22,500 hours TTIS.

I was wondering if Cessna intended to cease supporting the generic type (and perhaps other models) beyond 22,500 hrs TTIS? I would imagine this would do everything for their C208 sales!

Maybe the time has come for high time, older aircraft types?

Tail Wheel

[kiwiblue]

Once the precedent is set, regardless of which airframe/variant it is, they have given themselves free rein to do the same to any airframe. Surely they must be obliged to provide industry with an explanation of the basis of this action? Especially given that the action taken can and will have such an immediate and dramatic effect upon so many businesses and individuals! Has there ever been a precedent for this sort of action in AUS? None that I know of in NZ -although without doubt CAA-NZ will be closely monitoring developments as a consequence of this action.

Interesting days ahead, methinks.

[Howard Hughes]

I know of a lot of 400 series Cessnas that have over 22,500 hours, not just C-441's! This is going to stuff a few operators around the country!:eek:

Rumour has it operators have known it was coming, but apparently it has been sprung at VERY short notice!:hmm:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

B*gger it! I bought one last week! :{

[Howard Hughes]

Worth $750,000+ yesterday, scrap metal tomorrow!:eek:

I guess you could always sell it in Nigeria, but you would have to do it quickly before they catch on on...;)

[gaunty]

VALE C441.:{:{:{

For one who regardless, reckons the Conquest will remain a legend in its own time, this is a sad but not unexpected day.:ok:

It is only a matter of time before all those types and yes including the B200 will have to go to the knackers. Funny but only last night I was reading Steve Swifts paper "Of Gnats and Camels" http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/papers/gnats.pdf presented in 1999. I have zero sympathy with those "caught" with what are now mere kindergarten playground props.

Basically the manufacturers never imagined these types would go on forever, its not as if the owners weren't warned. There are more types to come.

It's time the hirers/users and operators of these types got in touch with the real world and started refiguring their FIFO/charter budgets. They have had a free ride for way too long and the operators who haven't been listening still have payment to make on equipment that will never again produce an income nor are worth a cracker.

The pass the parcel game is over.

I'm just glad that I had the pleasure of the girl for a while, while she was.......well a girl. :cool::ok:

[aircraft]

A truly magnificent aircraft.

I have long dreamt of getting to fly one.

To those of you that have had the pleasure: I am extremely envious.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

What licence do you have at the moment and where are you in your career aircraft? :)

[illusion]

Very unfortunate financially, but CASA has possibly saved the lives of people who will never know. Cessna washed their hands of these high cycle/hour airframes a number of years ago as they were designed as a rich man's commuter carrying a suitcase and a mistress on a business trip- not 10 rigpigs etc on a 30,000 hour airframe.
WELL DONE CASA.

[get_over_it]

one down, many to go.

the next 10 years are going to be very, very sad...:ugh:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
If you look at the latest edition of the C441 Maintenance Manual, Cessna have imposed a retirement life of 22500 hours on the pressure hull.
As they are the type certificate holder, Cessna (under our legislation) didn't leave CASA much option, except which legal mechanism to use to give effect to ensure compliance with the MM.
Very unfortunate, financially, loss of business as well as capital value, for those stuck with high hour Conquests, probably six or seven VH- over 22,500h.
Regards,

[Bula]

presumably a big affect on the skippers fleet?

[Howard Hughes]

Interestingly The Australian is reporting:
US authorities are among those yet to make a move.
Then why the rush by Australian authorities? See more here... (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,22303180-23349,00.html?from=public_rss)

[Peter Fanelli]

Then why the rush by Australian authorities?


Because the Australian authorities have long dreamt of achieving a perfect safety record by having nothing flying.

[LeadSled]

Folks,

To be fair to CASA (and I am not a noted CASA booster) all they have done is enforced compliance with the Cessna MM.

FAA don't have to do anything, the Cessna MM automatically applies to any Part 135 or up use of a C441, so the result is automatic. For a privately operated N registered aeroplane, the Cessna MM is not automatically mandatory (but do check with your insurer).

There is always the option of a major repair scheme, which would probably include rebuilding the whole pressure vessel. Economics will dictate that one.

Tootle pip!!

[chad sexington]

If a couple i have seen over west are any indication of the general fleet condition I would say good riddance, these 2 were (are) absolute heaps of sh*t.

[BrazDriver]

Directair have been having lots of problems with their PH outfit, I assume you were talking about those 2?

[Monopole]

BrazDriver, I would be suprised if Chad Sexington isn't refering to a few that Network had or any of the remaining Skippers C441.

VH-AZW (ex Network) is rumoured to be the oldest and highest time C441 still flying in the world. Don't know where she is now though.

[rotcivtolip]

Parked in a Hanger somewhere.:}

[chad sexington]

I didnt notice the rego and i'm unfamiliar with the local operators, one of em looks like an ex Rossair machine tho.

[Monopole]

rotcivtolip, I walked straight into that one I suppose.

[BrazDriver]

Networks AZW was sold to Hardy's in DN at the beginning of the year. Lots of corrosion in the old girl! Most of the Skippers and Directair Perth fleet are SN 130 and below.

LBY is SN 0023 from memory!

Directair's ex Rossair 441 is XMG

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Just on the news, 34 grounded.

[rotcivtolip]

Is there a list of the planes that have been grounded?

[Howard Hughes]

No but we could start one!;)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

OK - put C441's with >22,500 hrs at the top of the list! :bored:

[illusion]

http://www.casa.gov.au/casadata/regsearch/airsresults.asp?VHin=&framein=all&manuin=cessna&modelin=441&regholdin=&regopin=&serialin=&num_results=50&Search=Search

This link should tell you. Would suggest that most of the pre-1990 registrations will have had time to exceed the limit.

[HotDog]

Only six to be grounded by midnight, so far.

[gaunty]

Considering the bulk of them were built between '78 and '81 and most of the Aussie ones come out of that cohort and have been in high utilisation, I'll be amazed if most here wont be either grounded or wont have all that much time left.

And yes the condition of some of them is absolutely disgraceful, how they have the hide to put paying passengers in them escapes me just for the moment.

[Desert Flower]

None of Rossair's are grounded.

DF.

[Rate1]

Whats the odds groundings will flow over to the SKA200 and B200? Know quite a few over 20000 hrs.

[bushy]

Seems I read on here some time ago that Cessna stopped making the Conquest because it competed with the Citation sales.

[gaunty]

True but it was also coincident with the cessation of ALL FAR23 propeller driven types.

And no there isn't anything conspiratorial in re Citation.

It is only the beginning for high time FAR 23 types in Australia.

[tail wheel]

"Whats the odds groundings will flow over to the SKA200 and B200? Know quite a few over 20000 hrs."

I doubt that will happen whilst the Beech King Air is a current production aircraft. From memory, there is a hull life limit around 30,000 cycles. A Norfolk Island Airlines King Air hit the limit over 20 years ago and from memory there was a "fix" - external straps in the area of the rear pressure bulkhead?

Rather than mourn the loss, one should applaud the achievement of an aircraft probably only designed for around 8,000 to 10,000 hours life span!

I suggest the industry will see more onerous aging aircraft programs, to the extent that today's geriatric Australian GA aircraft fleet will become less and less cost effective in the future, versus purchase of new technology aircraft. Operators who have burned their depreciation provisions over the years, either in cross hire or operating losses, will simply exit the industry resulting in a smaller, more efficient and modern GA industry.

[Baxter Dewall]

I don't know about the C441 but I know of 5 DHC-A's that have more than 40000hrs or more than 38000 cycles on them(3 have more than 45000), and the remaining 4 have in excess of 25000 hrs in the QLINK fleet. The 100 fleet should have been retired years ago.

I don't know how QF can have these sh1t heaps even associated with the kangaroo let alone keep flogging them around and keep spruiking off about delivering a quality product to its clients.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Baxter:

The difference is that the C441 was designed and type certified under a different set of rules than the Dash series.

Most new designs certified under FAR 23 have a life limit already noted in their MM.

These life limits can be changed by the manufacturer as operational experiance is gained.

An example is the Cirrus; it's initial life limit was 4,000 hours, now all Cirrus have a life limit of 12,000 hours and I understand that is about to be extended to 18,000 hours.

Not that 18,000 hours is a 'throw-away' event. Cirrus plan to have an airframe inspection process to extend beyond that time.

Therefore, either Cessna or another company may develop an airframe mod or inspection schedule to extend the C441 beyond 22,500 hours.

The Piper Trauma-Hawk has an 11,000 hour life. But a company in the USA got an STC mod approved to extend beyond that.

[tail wheel]

"Therefore, either Cessna or another company may develop an airframe mod or inspection schedule to extend the C441 beyond 22,500 hours."

Why would Cessna be motived to do that? Unlikely, as it is not a current production aircraft.

[Towering Q]

It would be great to see a Conquest 3 on the drawing board, but I don't think it will happen.:{
Why haven't Cessna produced anything to fill the void between the C208 and the Citation series?

[Go West]

Typical Prune,

AZW has not got 22500 hours.
It has not been grounded and you will hear it flying around for a while to come.
It is not the highest time C441 in the World.
It no longer has ANY corrosion.
And there is a chance, having weathered many a 400 series grounding crisis that AZW and other C441 will live to fly on if certain conditions under negotiation are met.

First post sorry. But it really ****s me when stuff is posted that is straight out crap.

Monopole, before u jump down my throat, I can verify that the rumour is just that a rumour and NOT fact.

Cheers

[Monopole]

Go West,

My statement was never claimed to be FACT. I said rumoured.
VH-AZW (ex Network) is rumoured to be the oldest and highest time C441
I only said what i've been told. Maybe it is the oldest Conquest II. Being something like the 24th (II) off the production line, it would certainly be up there with some of the oldest.

Typical Prune,

Typical Indeed
Honestly said in the gentlest tone possible as not to be seen "jumping down your throat" :ok:

[BrazDriver]

I love those key words - IT NO LONGER HAS ANY CORROSION! :}

[Wombat]

Rafiki,

Would that happen to be ABD. If so, I hope all is going well for you. I also flew the C441 along side you. Still miss the Conquest. What a great machine.

[PLTOFF4LIFE]

Sep Australian Aviation says that a new allocation for XBC a Conquest II has been given to Rossair.

With a fleet of 5 C441's the company must still be in trouble even if none of theirs are grounded, the value of their fleet has just halved.:eek:

[D.Lamination]

:mad:
A good example of what is called Sovereign Risk: i.e. the risk that the state will take some action that will severely affect your business or confiscate your assests.
A high level of Sovereign Risk is why you might not choose to invest in say, Venezuela - Hugo Chavez might nationalise your business, or why you might not invest in Nigeria because the corrupt local mayor runs you out of town and steals your business while the police do nothing.
Now it looks like Australia has joined these ranks in a slightly different way - bureaucratic fiat that destroys your business or your wealth. Is any Conquest less safe this week than last week? Has the state of manufacture withdrawn it's type certificate? Have there been any incidents that justify instant grounding with no warning?
Try getting finance to buy a second hand GA type in future - The lenders who will take a bath on repossessed scrap metal (formerly known as the C441) will now be looking at "sovereign risk" for aircraft finance in this country so will the banks if trying to secure a loan for something else with an aircraft asset.:ugh:
Minister Vaile: your "CASA" is an out of control bureaucratic monster - and all this from a so called pro- business government.

[Go West]

Dude,

Never mentioned anything about age, just time.
I understand u said rumoured, and I was just pointing out the facts.
No offence taken.

And back to the thread............

Cheers

[PPRuNeUser0161]

The RFDS has been doing it for years. King Air 200, 350 etc. No probs, good gutsy machine thats built to last. Still has an airframe time to 29000 hours. Raisbeck now support FAR 25 with substantial reduction in field requirements.

[White and Fluffy]

I'm waiting for the day a similar decision is made on C210's. There are plenty of high time airframes getting about that have spent their whole lives at MTOW and in harsh tropical/outback conditions. May be some concerns with wing spar life due to overstress caused by the cruise speed being substantially higher then the turb speeds.

Now that would end true GA forever. Or have the people at Cessna forgotten all about this model as they beleive it is only used privately?

[SmokingHole]

Originally by JetA_OK
and everyone can breath a sigh of relief that GA has been killed.

Well, maybe not everybody. Forget where you came from?

[tail wheel]

I don't think "CASA grew balls" - CASA had no option as the manufacturer withdrew support and "recommended that the aircraft be retired when it has accumulated 22,500 flight hours."

Instrument No 316/07

The Cessna Aircraft Corporation (the manufacturer) has recently issued a Supplemental Inspection Document (SID) for the Cessna 441 Conquest which recommends that the aircraft be retired when it has accumulated 22 500 flight hours because continued airworthiness can no longer be assured due to the aircraft’s structural limitations at this level of usage. The manufacturer has not developed a remedial maintenance program.

CASA considers that, in view of the manufacturer's recommendations, these aircraft should immediately be grounded in the interests of the safety of air navigation.

There are some 34 Cessna 441 Conquest aircraft on the Australian Civil Aircraft Register.

The manufacturer is obviously aware of structural limitations (or other potential defects) of a nature for which there is no known repair, which precludes the aircraft safely operating beyond 22,500 hours TTIS.

[international hog driver]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetA_OK
Gaunty; old argument however do you know of a FAR 25 type that can operate with 10 POB into 1000-1100 metre unpaved strips? Lets leave aside the economic arguments and look at the mission.


The only FAR25 aircraft that will do it would be the Dash8, everything else would be FAR23 or SFAR41.

This then opens the old licensed / unlicensed argument, CAR92 where by you cant operate an aircraft with more than 30 seats into an unlicensed airfield.

This is why Sir Dennis dumped the Dash8 and went for the Braz…. Certain other WA operators think the same.

Hasta-la-vista Conquest, Who is next?

[Rich-Fine-Green]

TW:

Why would Cessna be motived to do that? Unlikely, as it is not a current production aircraft.


That's why is I wrote "Cessna - or another company".

The motivation is $$business$$. If Cessna or another company see a C441 life extension STC as a good business venture then it may one day be attempted.

I'm not sure how many C441's were ever made. If it's a small fleet, then the business case will never stack up.

[vee tail]

Nice TAIL WHEEL, as usual solid as a rock and the actual facts in reality.

Things like these are not an overnight knee jerk reaction, or spontaneous descision.:ok::ok:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

This all appears a tad "Ground Hog Day"ish, remeber the Cessna SID business for the C310's not that far back.

The word "Recommends" makes quite a showing in all the relevant documentation.

[Peter Fanelli]

Seems to me Cessna is just doing what Beechcraft did a while back with the Starship, only Cessna are using a different method probably due to the much larger fleet.

By getting a bunch of them out of the sky they are considerably reducing their liability exposure.

[BrazDriver]

I thought Beech found it uneconomic to produce spares and support the Starship, compensation for the grounding was a shiny new Beechjet or an agressive buyback scheme.

Obviously Cessna couldn't do this with the worldwide numbers!

[Tmbstory]

A fantastic aeroplane.

I flew one between 1978 &1981, including a delivery flight Gander/Shannon that took 6hs 50 min.,with enough fuel at Shannon to go to any suitable airport in the UK. On the approach to Gander I learnt something new, the controller kept advising " one metre something". As we turned off the runway to the parking apron I soon found out the reason, the snow was so high that the parking "bunkers" meant the wings were over snow when you parked. The Conquest had a couple of inches to spare!.

A fine aeroplane & it is a Legend. Sorry to see it pass into history.

[wheretonow]

Chad Sexington & Brasdriver

having just returned from a long trip and only just catching up on this thread , i respectfully suggest that you do not judge a book by its cover and suggest for a second that the two conquests you refer to are anything but well maintained work machines.....the owner/ operator spent big bucks to have them upto 100% and continue to do so.

My 2 bobs worth........credit where credit is due.........


WTN

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Latest From CASA's spin-chucker:

CASA media release - Monday 27 August 2007

CASA's direction to ground the aircraft will be place for one year and during this time avenues will be explored that could extend the safe operation of the Conquest beyond the current life limit.

[Ang737]

Hi All

Lets not forget that with CASA grounding the Coonquest that a fews guys may find themselves out of work. Hang in there guys and I hope you all secure a kick ass position soon.

Regards

Ang :ok: