Ryan's/Easy/Go

[737-NG First Officer]

Hello people!

I'm looking to move jobs and want to stay in the south of England.

Is it true that Ryanair work you too hard!, Easyjet is falling apart, Go is Going, Ryan's are the best payers, EasyJet is a great company to work for, and Go is on the brink of major success!!!

They can't all be true, but these are just a snipet of the aledged FACTS passed about on Pprune!!

So .......What do you think????

[Max Autobrake]

Don't let GO fool you into thinking you'll do less work than the Ryans - that said, Ryanair's rostering is a disaster, GO's is excellent, apparently, (ask Crash-dive).

The question you should be asking yourself is "do I want to do Low-cost?". By all accounts it sucks. Get a job with A2000!

[737-NG First Officer]

Hi Max,

Thanx for the advice! Whats the form with A2000? Pay conditions etc,would that be the B757?

It's not the hard work that bothers me, infact, I want the hours over the next couple of years. But it's hard to get around all the BS and find out whose pilots rate therir own company!

[Horses mouth]

To answer your question in relation to the pay deal at Ryanair the pilot body have just signed a new five year pay and working conditions agreement which will deliver improved roster patterns with guaranteed days off and increased basic pay and sector payments.

Total earnings (includes basic and grossed up sector pay) will rise over the duration of the agreement to

Senior Captain’s ; STG£102,000

First Officers STG£70,000

In addition to the above existing pilots also receive

£IR100,000 worth of Share Options @ 10 Euros which have already risen to 11:50 Euros.

An additional IR£10K worth of Share Options for the next two years (subject to increases in profits of 20% per annum)

Loss of Licence Insurance cover of IRL£150,000 for Both Captain’s & F/O’s

Rosters published 4 weeks in advance

Guaranteed days off and a pattern of 5 earlies followed by 3 days off followed by 5 lates followed by 3 days off.

No overnights with planned finishes at 2345.

Industry beating promotional opportunities based on the delivery of 5 new Boeing 737-800’s in December / January 2000/2001 and the delivery of a further 8 Boeing 737-800’s commencing in December of this year.

[737-NG First Officer]

Well that must have come straight form the Horses Mouth!! (Sorry, best I could come up with). http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif
Seriously though, thanks a lot. A freind of mine rang Mr Dooney and he reconed that he would get about £45K as an F/O with the basic at £17K!! It does seem a far cry from the £66K mentioned on the Pprune ad link and the £55 on Ryan's own recruitment page doesn't it? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[Jet Man]

Could any easy/Go line First Officers tell us how many hours a month they do on average?
I am interested as this effects both minimum time to command and duty pay!
From what I can tell so far Go pilots seem to be worked to the max - is easy the same?

[ex DOUBLECHECK]

Well...What can I say. I joined EZ couple-o-months ago. Flying, destinations, people and pay are great. Between 2700-2900 take home.(FO) What isn't great is rostering, I've flown 3-4 days of my december roster, rest got changed. Sometimes from a 1500 start to a 0700 start...It ruines your life. The good thing is...I don't have a life!!!! Hours flown a month vary. Count on 50-60 average as an FO. Captains fly more I reckon.

I would very much appreciate the same kinda story from a Ryanair FO so we can compare a bit. BTW, when does this 'new' rostering system start?

Take it EZ......(4 the time being..)

[Horses mouth]

Latest Data available on hours etc from Ryanair atStansted is as follows and is prior to the introduction of the new agreement on pay, rosters and share options

Weekly Hours

Average Duty hours per week 25 Hours

Highest Duty hours per week 39.3 Hours


Monthly Hours

Average Flight Time was 75 Hours per month

Average Number of Days worked was 14 days

Highest Number of Days worked 20 Days


The New Agreement which has just been implemented also gives Pilots

- Work Pattern of 5 earlies followed by 3 days off, then 5 lates followed by 3 days off

- Rosters published 4 weeks in advance

- Guaranteed days off

- No Planned finishes later than 23:45.

[737-NG First Officer]

DOUBLE CHECK:

Sounds quite good at EZ. Would you care to tell us why you chose the orrange mob as opposed to the Harp/Mini BA!?

It does seem that Ryans have the best package, all be it with a low basic. It would be good to hear the views of some of their F/O's and Capt's to see if they enjoy the company etc.

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by 737-NG First Officer (edited 05 January 2001).]

[Jet Man]

I too would like some feedback. I am in the lucky position of having been offered contracts by Go and easyJet.
Any advice?

[CrashDive]

Working as a F/O at Go.

Per month, I averaged nine days worth of flying which were 'out & backs' on the same day, and 3.3 days worth which were night-stop / split-duties.

Nb. Last summer I did operate 4 night flights – 3 of these got back just after 5am and one just before 3 am – and I got paid extra for doing them.

Typically we have a pattern of five days on, and then three off – involving a mixture of earlies and lates, or with a split-duty / night-stop in the middle.

Accordingly, per month, I went to work (as an average) on just under 13 days, which involved (again, as an average) 32 sectors, 72 flight block hours, and 138 duty hours; At most, I did a maximum of four sectors in any one day.

Across the year all my days off, or leave, have been preceded by an early-finish (mid morning / early afternoon), with the first flight back after any day-off / leave as a late-start (mid-afternoon onwards).

Nb. If you should happen to finish after midnight on a day-off (even at one minute past the witching hour “... and waddya mean we’d slow down to make sure we do – as if ?!” ;) this results you getting the rostered day, plus an extra day, off.

I have been called out from standby just once in the whole of last year (I was also on standby on 9 other occasions but not called).
Nb. I would have been on standby for a total of 25 occasions, but I traded 16 of these for ‘Office Days’ in order to work on some computer system projects.

I have had NO roster changes at all in a whole year - i.e. every rostered duty was the one that I subsequently did. The roster is available weeks in advance of duty.

All the holiday dates I asked for were granted.

Average monthly take-home has been £2877.

Ps (hence the edit). I forgot to say that I primarily swapped those standby days (mentioned above) for office days because I was so bored at home (and everybody knows that FO's never go sick coz they want the hours towards their command !). That said, I also forgot to mention the 7 other 'office days' I spent out of the country on business related to some IT systems projects.

Personally, I'm having a ball and I'd certainly recommend Go.

However it would be very unfair, without personal knowledge of some of the other companies, to caste dispersions; all (even Go) have both good and bad points - and thus I'll have to leave it to you to figure out just what these are.

[This message has been edited by CrashDive (edited 05 January 2001).]

[Jet Man]

Thanks for your constructive comments Crashdive - most appreciated.

[standbyils]

CrashDive,

C'mon my man....how the hell can you say we average 5 on 3 off.....I've had my fair share of roster changes too....keep it REAL.

6 on 3 off/2 off more like it.

[737-NG First Officer]

Yep Thanks to you both. Would it be too synical to suggest that CrashDive might have gained a certain ammount of favour for his hard work in the computing field, which might have resulted in some kind rostering?

Any comments?

[StressFree]

737 NG F/O,
Sir, is that you?

:)

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'Keep the stress down'

[CrashDive]

Standbyils, all I have said in the above is what I have personally experienced, across the past year. Like I said above, all the airlines mentioned in this thread have both good and bad; Of course you might have a different experience, and if so, could I ask that you also recount your experiences on these pages.

Nb. Obviously(?) if you work ‘six on’ you have a legal requirement for three off.

Again, all I can say is that my posting above reflects what I actually did.

That said, if it helps (throwing down the gauntlet here), I will assist anybody who really needs proof of anything that I have written above by meeting them at Enterprise House (Go’s HQ) with my salary slips, my rosters, my log book, and myself – such that they can investigate my claims for themselves !

Now I can’t say fairer (or be more open & honest ) than that, can I ?!

[This message has been edited by CrashDive (edited 07 January 2001).]

[Mr Benn]

I had to make comment on Max's comment that you should join Air 2000 for a better deal. NO! You would be far worse off than any of the other airlines mentioned here, other than that we have a higher basic than RyanAir's current/ old deal.
We have virtually nothing "guaranteed" in our contract other than CAP371. We do have a "gentleman's agreement" which is meant to take care of things on the rosters but it is totally NOT enforceable and if it suits the company they throw it out the window.

An example of working in summer. Work a week, have a single day off (late finish before) then work another week. Lots of long flights, generally 2 sectors, no reason to the times you get - mix of earlies, lates, nights. We get hundreds of standbys. We usually get 8 days off per month, occasionally 9 or 10. Any day where they have nothing for you to do they give you an 8 hour standby.

The basic pay for FOs (both fleets) is currently £37,945. Sector pay is £2.21 per hour, payable for nightstops too, which don't happen very often. I reckon we average around £300-400 per month in summer (with a couple of nightstops), around £100-200 in winter.

We get basic private health, £60k loss of licence, leave is a lottery, we get no more for working nights, we have lots of night flights in summer that finish at 5,6,7am.

Earlies start from around 3.30am onwards.

I have had loads of roster changes, I think the recent record is 5 changes for one day, although usually it is fairly stable.

I often ended up doing early start followed by night flight and vice versa.

Also, we are meant to finish by 9pm before a day off, starting 9am after a day off. But we often get rostered a late finish or early start with a "memo" from rostering saying thanks very much for doing it. No option.

Lots of driving around in hire cars.

A quick survey of the pilots I fly with suggested average FO hours of around 70-80 hours a month in summer, 40 in winter, Captains up to 100 hours a month in summer, 40 in winter. Average hours in a year somewhere between 600-800.

We get paid more if we do more than 800 hours a year, but they keep an eye on it so you don't go over it. They just use others to cover your flights. Also, any contracts abroad don't count towards the hours total.

Finally, I just want to say that to give you an idea of the company, the company didn't want union recognition but agreed to ballot the pilots on it.

One management pilot even sent everyone an e-mail basically advising them to vote against the union.

In the end the majority of pilots voted for BALPA recognition. That was in August. Although other airlines have had an agreement in place within a month, we are now in January and still the company are avoiding the issue.

So if I were you I would have a good look at the "low cost" airlines.

To balance it out, time to command is good, we have a fairly good pension and we get some free shares after 3 years employment.

Work days off, get nothing for it.

Concessions, standard IDs for scheduled airlines, OK on our own company products if you are booking last minute and going standby.

A few people have left recently and a few have applied to other airlines. Recently both Captains and FOs leaving, going to airlines including Atlas and BA. But no major exodus.

[CrashDive]

737-NG First Officer - to my knowledge, I have gained neither grace nor favour from my extracurricular computing work – indeed I work a huge number of hours over and above those I’m required to as a mere FO.

And before anybody screams FTL’s, as far as I’m concerned, what I do in my own time is up to me !

E.g. As of tomorrow I start two weeks of leave. During this period I’ll be finishing / delivering / deploying systems for the automation of flight / cabin crew allowance payments, evaluating our flight fuel burn data (so that the company can accurately determine the forward-buy requirement on the ‘spot’ market), working on the development / evaluation of a new web based flight crew briefing system, finishing a system for the management of personal flight crew data, working on our company Intranet and crew-access web site, visiting the Defence Evaluation Research Establishment (DERA) for our ‘Boarder Guard’ project, etc….

– and yes I get paid a bit extra for it but, and to be honest, I could earn substantially (and I mean ‘substantially’ ;) ) more from being an independent IT contractor.

Being blunt, in my previous employment I earned more than a RyanAir captain – and for Go to employ the like of my expertise would cost an awful lot of money. However, and as such, I now give my time (relatively) cheaply; by way of 'putting something back' (a PPRuNe theme) w.r.t. my good fortune at having been given the opportunity of a life-time (i.e. to fly for a living).

Now in the last year I was (genuinely) sick twice to the extent that I couldn’t fly (e.g. in hospital on one of those occasions), i.e. my fellow colleagues only had to cover for me (from memory) on 3 days. On about six other occassions when I felt like crap I still pitched, rather than lose flying hours and / or subject a fellow colleague to have to work on my behalf. I drove 26,000+ miles commuting too and from work, yet on no occasion was I ever late for report (normally always arriving at least one hour before report – so that I can do a good job on getting ready for it – aka. professionalism). I flew as much as I was rostered for; Perhaps in the above it was remiss of me to forget to mention the occasions when I also volunteered for extra flying duties in order to help the company.

Outside of this I worked so much on other projects that on several occasions I have been told to go home from the office because I was doing too much ! (Don’t believe me ? then just ask just anybody in the office)

Again, I do these the extra 'office' duties because I want to make a difference - and the things that I can deliver using my IT skills do indeed make a difference.

Overall I’ve pushed the limits of personal endurance to a degree that has seen some folks leaving, and yet I’m still here - and intend to remain so.

What I'm driving at with this is that I'm not one to shirk my responsibilities, i.e. I will always Go the extra mile and I will always more than pull my weight (no pun intended) w.r.t both flying and other activities.

Thus, to be brutally honest, I find it totally insulting that you suggest that I’ve had some sort of ‘special’ roster; Indeed I’ll be more than pleased if you would contact our either our rostering chap (NW), or my team manager (BM), or the Chief Pilot (JM), or our Director of Operations (EW), or even Barbara Cassani with your concerns, that is if you truly believe that I’m getting some sort of special privileges – however I’m confident that you will find that you are wrong, and that you owe me an apology.

Ps. (Hence the edit) I should point out that the take-home pay figure, which I pointed out a few postings above, reflects a Go First Officers pay when on rate 1.
Nb. This net figure should actually be higher but my office duties have reduced the possible sector payments, i.e. a regular FO on the same scale would not lose these.

[This message has been edited by CrashDive (edited 07 January 2001).]

[Max Autobrake]

Take it easy Crash-dive! I'm sure 737 NG's rostering comment wasn't meant in mischief - you're obviously spending too much time in front of the computer - get a life!

I've seen my mate's Go roster - six days on, two days off three weeks running; what's this about six days on legally requiring three days off? Not so, suggest you take a look at your Ops Manual Part A 7.21!

[737-NG First Officer]

CrashDive:

You are indeed a candidate for an ulcer! That also was intended as a light hearted remark. Having read my comments again, I do find it hard to see exactly what I said that would cause you to spend so much of your clearly precious time in constructing such a lengthy altough articulate reply.

I don't belive that I mentioned any kind of 'special' roster, merley that somone as hard working and valuable as yourself, who clearly has a very high profile, might be considered a valuable asset and have gained "a certain amount of favour". Which would posibly result in slightly favourable rostering. Not too hard to imagine, I don't think.

Indeed, I intended no insult to yourself and if I caused any then you have my most sincere apologies. I didn't feel the need to talk to Barbara, we have much more important things to attend to. (Once again, that was my modest attempt at humour!)

Regards.

(The Edit)
Mr Benn:

Thank you very much old boy, THAT is the sort of information I was after! I have a very good friend with Britannia who tells a similar tale.

StressFree:

Sir!? I don't think we have had the pleasure!

Max Autobrake:

Quite!!


[This message has been edited by 737-NG First Officer (edited 07 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by 737-NG First Officer (edited 07 January 2001).]

[CrashDive]

Firstly, I'm sorry for the rant - when I wrote the above I'd just finished a week of 'earlies' and was perhaps just a tadge 'tired' (not uncommon) - but having just spent most of the day asleep, I'm sure that normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

However, and just to reiterate the point, (to my knowledge) I work the exact same roster as any other bloke at Go. If my colleagues are working harder than I, then I will make a point of speaking to our excellent rostering chap and ask him to make sure that I am doing my fair share of flying - but I still doubt that I am not – and I stand by my offer to reveal all (yuck, what a disgusting thought ! ).

So, carry on chaps...... :)

Ps. Yeah, that's good advice Max, perhaps I do need a chill pill - and as proof I'm going fishing in a couple of days, just as soon as I fix my boats prop and the fish finders transducer (both damaged during the floods down here in Lewes - see: CrashDive's day off - never quit, and take no crap ! (http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/010464.html) ) - I'll also have to spend some time fitting extra buoyancy, so that it'll be able to stay afloat under the weight of the all that beer ( it's thirsty work is fishing ! )

[JB007]

Ooops CD :
Quote
"Typically we have a pattern of five days on, and then three off – involving a mixture of earlies and lates, or with a split-duty / night-stop in the middle."

And you've just finished a week of earlies...!!!!

Sorry, hate to be pickie..!!!


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Hear All...See All...Say Now't.

[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 07 January 2001).]

[CrashDive]

But JB007 you of all people should know that you are not allowed to be rostered for more than three consecutive duty days where there report is in any part of the period from 01:00 to 06:59.

So, to put all the above into context.

I'm sure that you know that I always arrive at least one hour before the rostered report. This is in order to ensure I get there on time (Nb. I drive in to Stansted from Lewes in East Sussex, and that's 88 miles), plus to facilitate the pre-flight paper-work/planning, and to ensure that I'm cool calm and collected after the M25.

Last Sunday night (New Years Eve) having gone to bed, at about 00:30, I then had a dreadful night ( I just couldn't sleep - mostly due to my little boy waking several on several occasions ) – thus I found myself wide awake and listening to the new years day Radio4 shipping forecast at 05:30.
That afternoon I had to report for a VCE (followed by BFS) at 12:30. I plan to arrive at 11:30, so I left my house at 09:45. I finished work at 22:10, and then drove home (88 miles).

Once again I had a crap night of sleep, and was thoroughly wide awake at 05:30.

On that Tuesday I had a split duty LIN, rostered to report at 18:45. I plan to arrive at 17:45 (i.e. rush hour on the motorways), so I left the house at 15:00.
Later, during the decent in to LIN they closed the airfield, for snow clearance (MXP was closed earlier too). We went into hold, nearly had to divert but the airfield opened just as we were getting close to making a decision. We eventually arrived at the hotel just in time to get the legal minimum required rest ( if you know what I mean ). Pick-up by the bus, on Wednesday morning, for the trip back to the airport is at 05:15. Arrive back at STN and finish work at 09:10, then drive home.

Thursday I was rostered to report at 06:00 for a BFS (followed by BIO). I plan to be there by 05:00, so I left my house at 03:45. I finished work at 15:10, and then drove home.

Friday I needed to report for a Lisbon flight at 08:10. I plan to arrive at 07:10, therefore I left my house at 05:15. Unfortunately prior to this, once again my little lads distress (he wet his bed) woke me up, i.e. another crap night of sleep. I finished at 15:55, and then drove home.

Saturday had to report for a Copenhagen at 0615, so planned to be there at 05:15, I left the house at 03:45 which, for various reasons, meant I’d only been able to get 4 hours of shut-eye. I finished work at 12:00, and then drove home.

Yes ! this was a six day working day week, most strange, but probably due to some roster ‘loading’ prior to my leave.

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly mind the drive ( and I've certainly done it enough times to know - i.e. 26,000+ miles in the last 12 months alone ).

However I’m sure that even the most hardy amongst us will agree, that when coupled with a disturbed sleep pattern, this can take its toll on ones mental fortitude - the Latin for it is fatigare - which is something you'll surely agree with JB007, living as you do darn’sarf and working as you did with me at Stansted.

Ps. My ‘rant’ above, for which I ask some forgiveness, was made at 22:28 – i.e. I’d been awake on that day for over 19 hours; after six day in which I’d driven 880 miles, operated 14 sectors, and had had probably only 34 hours of decent sleep. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[standbyils]

oops

[This message has been edited by standbyils (edited 07 January 2001).]

[JB007]

Blimey....just a joke mate..!!!

I have to admit, I don't miss that drive at all...you want to becareful CD, I had a nasty accident falling asleep at the wheel driving a long distance after a long day...I know a good B+B in Stebbing..?

Cheers
007

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Hear All...See All...Say Now't.

[737-NG First Officer]

CrashDive: Enjoy your fishing old chap!

Would anyone from Easy/Ryan's care to shed some light on their operations, to give us some comparison with our friends from 'Go'?
:)

[Kipper Fleet]

Crash Dive--You must examine your priorities. I would say that you could be considered a Flight Safety Hazard when operating under some of the circumstances you have described.

[CrashDive]

Yeah KF a fair point I suppose, but paraphrased from the relevant section in our FlightOps manual: <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">The ANO places a responsibility on crew members, which simply put, states that crew members shall not act as operating crew if they know, or suspect, that their physical or mental condition renders them unfit to operate.</font>

Now whilst I might have been a smidge tired by the end of the week ( and who isn't ? ), I defy you to find fault with my operation of the operation.

The roster that I was provided with was more than legal w.r.t. CAP371 - and so was I !

Thus perhaps a case, of different strokes for different folks and, as they say, 'When the going gets tough..........' and I am the epitomy of tough !

[ADC]

Hey Kipper Fleet,

Still filling your 737 up with fuel then???

:)

[Horses mouth]

IF IT'S IN THE IRISH TIMES IT MUST BE TRUE…

“RYANAIR PILOTS FLYING HIGH AFTER RECORD NEW AGREEMENT"

Ryanair’s deal with its 220 pilots got surprisingly little coverage, given that it will put them among the best paid pilots in the skies. Under the five-year deal, annual pay will rise to over £100,000 (EUROS 127,000) worth of Ryanair shares at current prices.

The options, granted at 10 Euros (37.87) per share, are exercisable in five years. With the shares now trading at over 11 Euros, each pilot has a potential paper profit of just under £14,000. And the performance of the shares to date suggests that the pilots could be in for something of a bonanza when they eventually exercise their options.

At over 11 Euros, Ryanair shares are up about 450 percent on their June 1997 floatation price. They were one of the best performing shares on the Irish market in 2000 and outperformed the London Market by 130 percent.

But Chief Executive Michael O’Leary is well aware that he needs the co-operation of his pilots to ensure his share price keeps moving north. He has ambitious expansion plans – he wants to double the size of the company over the next three to four years and get passenger numbers up from seven million in 2000 to 14 million.

The deal, which followed a threatened strike by the pilots, involves significant up-front payments for increased efficiency improvements. Ryanair pilots were considered among the most productive in the industry, turning around planes in 25 minutes and taking up over four flights per day. And the five-year tail on the options should keep the pilots with the airline until they can exercise them.

The Ryanair deal is being viewed enviously by pilots in other low-cost airlines, as well as pilots who fly in bigger airlines who fly larger aircraft.

[ex DOUBLECHECK]

Come on Stelios!!!! You should be able to beat this.....

[Fifty Above]

.....apparently he intends to.