Maths or Physics?

[fly_boy1105]

Hi
I tried a search for this, but not much useful information was returned - maybe i missed something, but would appreciate anyone's help on this subject. I have just recieved my AS level results today, i had 2 As in Product Design and Computing, 2 Ds :bored: in Maths Mechanics and Physics. I am looking to go into an engineering career, possibly completing a degree in the process, and I am wondering - which subject, Maths or Physics, would benefit me most in this career? Bearing in mind that I cannot take both due to the near impossible workload posed by Product design and Computing.
Any suggestions appreciated
Dave

[FHA]

Hello there. You need both actually. Sorry!

[Mr.Brown]

I would say "physics" as it helps you understand how all the systems work. Definetly best for the maintenance side of things anyway.

[Forkandles]

Or you could do an apprenticeship, if there are any to be had nowadays!
I went straight from school after O'levels and was then a mechanical apprentice for 5 years at the now defunct Ferranti. Then you needed 5 passes at C or above (incl. maths & physics) and did day release to get my ONC, HNC & HND. Stopped then because a degree seemed like too much hard work...

Not having a degree hasn't stopped me getting on, and being an apprentice meant I didn't have to be a 'proper' layabout, tax dodging, hippy student. Which was nice. :ok:

[Capt Pit Bull]

OK - crucial question - what exactly do you mean when you say 'Engineer'?

I have to tell you that if you are looking at an Engineering Degree you will have a very, very tough time with those grades as a starting point.

pb

[Mini fan]

Depends on what your Physics syllabus is like. My Physics topics were "Space", "Waves and particles", a very small amount of "material structure" and a small amount of "mechanics".

I did both Physics and Maths A Level and I went on to do Aerospace Engineering. The Maths A level I did covering Pure, Stats and Mech helped me about 10 times as much as my Physics A level did. All the mechanics I did in Physics was covered by Maths course anyway. Most Universities will only ask for Maths or Physics, but the good ones will want an A!

If you're not thinking about University then I'd say choose whichever one you find interesting.

[fly_boy1105]

Ok, thanks, i was afraid that i would need both. By 'Engineer' I mean an aerospace engineer/aircraft mechanic (in BAMC for example, the BA maintenance base near me). Mini fan, the physics syllabus that i have covered was 'electricity and thermal physics', 'mechanics', 'astrophysics'. The Maths is 2 modules of pure, 1 module of mechanics.
I know that this is not in the right forum area now, but another career i was considering was Air Traffic Control. Any ideas what sort of qualifications are required?
Thanks
Dave

[WillDAQ]

Hmmm... tough decision really..

From my what I know BMAC (Cardiff at any rate) have 3 basic levels of 'engineer'. I can't remember the exact names but they're something like:

- 'Mechanic' which is the basic level where you're trained on the job to do specific tasks but not to involved in the whole paperwork side of maintaining an aircraft.

- 'Technician' which is the next level up, so more specifically skilled, taken some exams and able to sign stuff off.

- 'Engineer' People who sign aircraft off and deal alot with the paperwork side. There are also a few guys who do things like sit on MSG (http://www.corrosionsource.com/technicallibrary/corrdoctors/Modules/Aircraft/MSG.htm) panels and in some cases are qualified to certify modifications to the aircraft.

If you're looking to take the degree route you're more likely to end up somewhere like Airbus designing the aircraft rather than BMAC maintaining them.

So to the question... physics or maths.. well both really. Aero eng in the UK is a bit different than many degrees in that I would say at least half of the unis that run it are looking for AAB where the A's are Physics and Maths.

Now that may put a bit of a downer on your day, but I have a question for you... Do you actually enjoy maths? It surprises me how few people realise what they're letting themselves in for when they turn up for interview.

A degree in Aero Eng is applied maths just about all the way... well, apart from things like systems engineering. And I don't mean adding lots of number together, I mean proper degree level maths. Advanced calculus, statistics and the principals of physics and mechanics applied using the methods of pure mathematics. If you're not handy at visualizing 3d mechanical problems in maths language it's tough (even if you can it's still tough..).

Specific A-level syllabi is not really an issue. Fact is that at degree level most of the stuff you've already learned will be re-cast into proper mathematical language (vectors, integrals and the like) rather than the watered down A-level versions. Even if you don't spot the tie ups you're still gonna have to learn the new way of doing things.


Hmmm... that makes it all sound rather negative! It's not that bad really!

[Capt Pit Bull]

WillDAQ has put down what I was aiming at with my earlier question.

Seriously, don't go anywhere near any kind of engineering degree course unless your maths is bombproof.

I'm speaking from bitter experience here, I managed to scrape through clearing onto a general engineering degree (with Electical / Electronic as a 3rd year specialisation) with a D in Maths (plus a couple of A grades in Physics and Chemistry).

It was very very tough, unfortunately I was just about clever enough to scrape through the first year exams. With the benefit of hindsight I wish I hadn't. If I'd failed them I would have had to face the fact my Maths wasn't good enough and either got it sorted or changed onto a different course.

In the end I scraped through the rest of the course and achieved a 'thinking mans degree' (a 3rd).

Funnily enough, it has still turned out to be quite useful, but thats only because I've ended up on a very niche career path where general engineering knowledge has been more important than actually designing anything! If I needed to use it in anger as a designer I'd be clueless.

I should also add that (regardless of what the governement / media and educational establishment might have you believe) A levels are watered down compared to how they used to be. I taught Physics at senior school for a while recently so I know what I'm talking about!

So unless that D grade had some serious extenuating circumstances (like a hay fever attack!) then you need to get some serious extra maths tuition or bin the engineering degree concept.

I know that may not be what you want to hear, but I would hate anyone to make the same mistake I did.

Good luck,

pb

[AR1]

Maths was my dodgy subject, but - and its something my daughter failed to heed, theres no running away from it in engineering or in her case, Genetics, she dropped it at AS/A and is paying the price right now.

However, I took the ONC/HNC route with maths taught at higher level for the HNC, which meant the 'Maths' was actually taught with 'Engineering' in mind, thus the direct relevance was clear - not always true with pure maths. And (to my delight) I got a Merit and not far off a distinction. The frightening thing being that this would have been the entry level to a degree course in order to avoid a one year foundation. Embrace it, counquer it, or fail.

But heres an example of how things change, at ONC we were taught vectors and trig. At HNC we tackled the same thing using J notation - why learn two things? I suppose the concept of vectors can be explained using trig as an introduction and when the foundations grasped, followed later by a system with J. Frankly once I'd got the hang of J I cursed the months doing vectors..Anyway its got me through 28 years of employment.

[WOTME?]

A long time ago I did the first year of A level maths at school.I was very good at the pure maths side but hated the physics side.So I left & joined the RAF.37 years later I'm a B1 licenced contractor earning a mint.
Dunno if it's any help but I thought I'd contribute my little bit.:)

[AR1]

Same route as myself!

[Blacksheep]

at ONC we were taught vectors and trig. At HNC we tackled the same thing using J notation - why learn two things? A sign of the notorious "dumbing down" we hear so much about and which the government denies?

Having done differential and integral calculus at 'O' level, we 1960's apprentices covered the calculus with vectors and trig functions in the first year of ONC and went on to analysis of complex waveforms using imaginary numbers (aka 'j' notation) in year two. I think that rather than poor wages and the allegedly low status of the profession, it is reduced standards in the teaching of mathemetics and science that has contributed to the decline of the engineering industry in UK.

In the meantime I'd recommend that flyboy investigates the possibility of securing an apprenticeship as an LAE at BAMC. His poor mathematical aptitude will make life a little difficult, but it wouldn't be fatal to a career in maintenance engineering.

[Mini fan]

WillDaq - These days there's a lot of Electronics/Avionics involved with the courses too.

[WillDAQ]

Indeed, Bristol Uni actually does a separate Avionics Systems course (shameless plug...) with this in mind, which is then shared across computer science, electrical engineering and aeronautical engineering. The aeronautical eng. then still covers your basic electronics and programming though.

However a word of warning on such things, firstly such courses do not include things like aerodynamics, structures and materials, so candidates should be prepared to be essentially working as a specialist programmer / electrical engineer.

Secondly there are quite a few companies out there that do not look for avionics engineers but instead look for physicists or more classical Aeronautical / Aerospace engineers. Why? Well who in HR has ever heard of avionics... The exception seems to be BAES who have a thing for avionics.

[shedhead]

it should be added that a reasonable level of understanding of maths is essential if you wish to get anywhere with physics.

[lovezzin]

I got an A in both A-Level maths & Physics....but the maths involved in Aeronautical Eng. was still way above me!! my mates on systems eng., materials eng. etc, isnt as crazy, but still pretty hardcore. i struggled throughout my course but pulled through in the end. not sure if it was lazyness or dumbness that caused my problems.

As previously mentioned, A-levels really are EASY compared to their related subjects at degree. if u cant cope/ arent good at A-Level AVOID engineering degrees at ALL COSTS!!

if i was to choose between maths/physics, both are important. In aero. eng, everything is taught and based on maths. but and understanding of physics is highly important for modules in dynamics, statics, various flight modelling such a aircraft stability and performance as well as the avionics side of flight control systems etc.

BOTH ARE IMPORTANT

FURTHERMORE, to reiterate a previous post, i got an aeronautical Engineering degree, and yet i have been offered an avionics design job with a helicopter manufacturer

[bgc]

Just repeat the two exams later in the year. I'd definitely recommend maths and physics a-level for an engineering degree, more so the maths. My course (Aeronautical Engineering) is very mathsy!

Edit: On second thought you're doing product design. I think a lot of universities will accept that instead of physics to access an engineering course. It should tell you in the university prospectus what combination of grades and subjects you need. Your school/college should be able to advise you too.

My advice - keep on the mathematics and get a decent grade in it because that'll give you access to a lot more courses than physics.

[Mini fan]

Seems to be a fair few Aerospace/Aeronautical students here then!

And as Lovezzin said, Engineering Degrees are a LOT harder than A-Levels. University isn't like school/college where someone's always watching over your work, the only way you're going to get anywhere is self-motivation and hard work.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm just old enough to have done O levels, although they were talking about these new things called "GCSEs" coming along in the next couple of years when I went to school.

At O level I did maths (grade A), further maths (grade B), physics (grade A)then at A-level maths (B) further maths (C) and physics (A). I then went to a good university to study aeronautical engineering. I did get some remedial maths tuition in my upper sixth because I didn't find it easy.

IIRC, I then spent 2-3 nights a week, from about 11-3, throughout my first year, working on revision of my basic mathematical ability - I got through the first year, and the degree okay (although some of the second year maths still gives me nightmares), but if my maths had been any weaker than that, I'd not have survived.

Physics I never struggled that much with, because to be honest although the subject was mandatory, most of the genuinely important physics content was in the further maths syllabus anyway (Newtonian mechanics, 3d stressing, etc). So, although you need it, I'd not worry so much about it - it's maths that you live or die by.


I'll admit now to being on the books of three universities at present (one I teach at, one I research at, one pays my mortgage and I do both! all in aeronautical engineering) and teach from first year to doctoral level. The biggest headaches we all routinely get are lack of mathematical reasoning, poor written English, and poor research skills (particularly this strange view that all wisdom is on the internet). I've also heard several academics recently suggest that there might be mileage in dropping A level physics as a mandatory requirement for engineering, whilst possibly raising the grades for maths.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Oh yes, try and answer the actual question Genghis.

For any engineering career, you'll need maths and physics - for an apprenticeship towards a "technician engineer" role, the requirements will be rather less than for a degree towards chartered or incorporated engineer status. But for any of them, Ds in maths and physics are unlikely to get you anywhere - the courses are too mathematical, and the competition too tough.
Product design is a mickey mouse course at A level so far as most university engineering departments and engineering recruiters are concerned.

Computing is a serious subject, but only as a third A level. Even to get onto a decent product design degree course, they'll be looking for Cs in A2 for maths and physics, regardless of your product design A level grade.

In my opinion if you are getting bad maths and physics grades due to excessive time demands of the design A-level, either accept getting a much poorer grade in design, or just drop it - it's much much less useful to you than the "big 2". This is regardless of whether you want to be an engineering technician, a chartered engineer, a professional pilot, an air traffic controller or any point in between.

G

[lovezzin]

just to add to our chief flight engineers post ;) my gf at uni was studying Product design at the same uni. she had A-levels the same as me in Maths, Physics & DT. even just studying product design, the modules she took in maths, statics & Dynamics was just as complex as the Aero students. I remember looking through her work one day and it was all just as complex as what we were doing on our aero course.

Conclusion

MATHS MATHS MATHS MATHS PHYSICS PHYSICS MATHS MATHS PHYSICS

In proportion ofcourse ;)

Oh, and the uni? - Loughborough University ~ YEAH! whoop whoop ;)