'Green Pages' Envy

[Giggleswick]

Gentlemen,


I’ve just dug out this table from my files and thought it may help us to make our ‘apples for apples’ comparisons!


‘A’-scale HKG (’00)/ ‘B’-scale HKG(‘07)/ Difference

SCN17 $2,123,511/ $1,768,416/ +20.0%
SCN1 $1,695,941/ $1,325,064/ +28.0%

CN2 $1,640,444/ $1,301,755/ +26.0%
CN1 $1,612,962/ $1,278,875/ +26.1%

SFO17 $1,464,164/ - -
SFO6 $1,257,295/ $1,031,303/ +21.9%
SFO1 $1,128,595/ $ 908,102/ +24.3%

FO4 $1,053,130/ $ 878,345/ +19.9%
FO1 $ 981,110/ $ 835,248/ +17.4%

JFO3 $ 801,424/ - -
JFO2 $ 768,807/ $ 719,576/ + 6.8%
JFO1 $ 735,358/ $ 642,473/ +19.7%


Both scales are HK$ and include 13th month. Please post updated figures if you have them.


It is clear from this that we have a long way to go to achieve pay equality!


Same Seat, Same Pay, No Compromise!

[AnAmusedReader]

Giggles, I think your files need updating as your figures are a bit pear shaped. Surely, this is a better apples for apples comparison, what the two scales are now, in HK$ and no 13th month just the ACTUAL monthly salary scales. Your A scale column is the A scale before the 1999 cuts. Not defending the so-called offer but don’t use an A scale that doesn’t exist.

The figures in blue are the company proposed increases as at 1st January 2009.


The ACTUAL A Scale The ACTUAL B Scale % Difference
As at 1st July 2001 As at 1st July 2007

SCN17 153,824 136,032 149,060 13.08 3.20
SCN 1 127,366 101,928 108,504 24.96 17.38

CN2 123,319 100,135 106,454 23.15 15.84
CN1 121,296 98,375 104,366 23.30 16.22

SFO17 105,273 N/A N/A
SFO 6 94,021 79,331 84,162 18.52 11.73
SFO 1 84,906 69,854 74,109 21.55 14.57

FO4 79,638 67,565 71,680 17.87 11.10
FO1 74,769 64,265 68,179 16.34 9.67

JFO3 61,617 N/A N/A
JFO2 59,139 55,352 58,723 6.84 0.71
JFO1 56,566 49,421 52,431 14.46 7.89


Where’s NC when he’s needed?

[jed_thrust]

I'm sure NC will turn up soon...

Giggle, you are still missing the point!

The difference that you highlight is about 20%; it USED to be more than 50%!!!!

The point is that the A scale has dropped towards B, rather than B rising to meet A.

Will you be happy when A has dropped enough to equal B scale?

What do you think will happen then? I'll tell you: your B becomes the "A" that gets compared with the freighter scale. Hello? The new A then starts dropping!

You - and everyone - should be fighting to keep the A scale as high as possible: a rising tide lifts all ships, and all that.

[Numero Crunchero]

Giggles numbers are way off.

How about 2 simple comparisons - based on how much B scales need to rise to get to A scales. One based on the pre-cut A scale (30/6/99) and one on current A scales.

Pre cut
FO1-4 - need 20-24%
SFO1-6 need 29%
CN1-2 need 31.7%
SCN1-17 need 34%

Post cut
FO1-4 - need 16-18%
SFO1-6 need 28-21%
CN1-2 need 23.2%
SCN1-17 need 13.1-25%

Clarification on the last figures. The current maximum difference between A and B scales, in per centage terms, is SCN1. This is because A scalers get a double increment rise there whereas B scalers don't. CN B scales remain 20-25% behind A scales until SCN10. From SCN 11 onwards, the difference reduces to be 13.1% at SCN 17. After the payrises and CN increment smoothing in CoS08, SCN 17 will be 3.2% behind A scales.

So in another 13 years when the most senior B scaler finally gets SCN17 he will be within 3.2% of the post cut A scales. That figure will still be 22.4% behind what A scales were in 1995.

Clear as frosted glass?

[Liam Gallagher]

Figures....smigures

"Same Seat, Same Pay, No Compromise"

Heard it in 2001, wasn't around to hear it in 1992/3 when B-Scales were intoduced or in 1996/7 when ASL was introduced; definitely didn't hear it in 99when the AOA endorsed Freighter Pay as we know it:eek: ...... how will 2007/8 be any different....?

as Nick Rhodes would say "Same Seat, Same Pay, No Compromise... or you're going to do what?"

[Liam Gallagher]

freightdog188,

Often said in CX; but I've never seen anyone do it with conviction. Wont get you what you want, unless you let the company know you are doing it.... and there are 49 reasons you wont want the company to know.....

Rates with holding your breath and stamping........

[Giggleswick]

Gentlemen,

I assure you my post was not intended to mislead but simply to highlight, in the public domain, the substantial difference between A and B Scales in HKG. I have a hardcopy of ALL payscales for all base areas and it is dated 'Effective 1 Jul 2000'. I assumed that this would accurately reflect any pay cuts in 1999?!

I think you will agree that even the corrected figures show how poorly the B-scale compares with the A-scale even in 2007!

I am certainly NOT advocating a cut in A-scale to bring it down to the B-scale level. This would be counterproductive and would leave none of us better off.

I don't subsribe to the theory of 'the rising tide lifting all boats'. In the 14yrs since the B-scale was introduced the gap has certainly narrowed but at the historical rate most of us will be 'six feet under' before they reach parity!


On a different tack, shouldn't we be pushing for some form of 'home currency protection' in our next round of 'negotiations', as have EK. I for one would need a 40% increase in salary overnight to achieve the same purchasing power that I enjoyed in 2001! (-25% currency, -15% inflation). This IS an EXPAT airline after all with only a minority of pilots making provisions for retirement in US$/HK$.



Same Seat, Same Pay, No Compromise!

[Liam Gallagher]

Why not "push" for ending poverty and world peace whilst you are at....

Are going to tell how to achieve these gems of yours.......

Same Seat, Same Pay, No Compromise..... or you'll do what?

[Giggleswick]

Sorry, but I don't subsribe to your defeatist attitude.

I'm not a starry-eyed 'idealist', just someone who recognises that we are on the cusp of an unprecedented and hopefully sustained expansion in this airline which requires pilots like you and I and many more. I assume this is why the company feels compelled to extend 400 of our most highly paid colleagues for another 10 years.

It would be hard to refute that the outlook for the industry is much rosier now than it was in 2001. We even seem to be in the throes of a long awaited pilot shortage which has driven retirement ages up worldwide. The company NEEDS concessions from US sooner rather than later which gives us some leverage around the negotiating table for a change.

I for one remain optimistic that our GC can capitalise on this unique opportunity and secure a good deal for the membership which contains something for ALL.


Same seat, Same pay!

[FlexibleResponse]

So in another 13 years when the most senior B scaler finally gets SCN17 he will be within 3.2% of the post cut A scales. That figure will still be 22.4% behind what A scales were in 1995.

In other words, in the year 2020 when the most senior B scaler Captain is on Senior Captain year 17 pay, he will be earning 22.4% less than an A scaler Captain was earning on Senior Captain year 17 pay back in 1995, which was some 25 years previously.

I think that rather says it all.

[Numero Crunchero]

Didn't think you were trying to mislead. I just like to see accurate numbers;-)

How about this for some comparisons.

From 1993-1994 A scale CN 1 was 83% higher than B scales.

From 1995-1999(pre A scale cuts) it was 78-48% higher.
After the cuts it was 23% higher.


Or other interesting snippets.

In 1993, A scale CN 1 was on $113K whilst a B scale CN 1 was on $62K.

From 1995-1998 A scale CN 1 peaked at $129K whilst B scale reached $87K

Doesn't change anything - just shows that the disparity is closing and we are a long way from either A or B scale ever getting the salaries we got 12 years ago.

Giggles, is this the sort of thing you wanted to highlight?

[ACMS]

You see that's what ( in a rather bad way I guess ) I've been trying to say.
A and B are like chalk and cheese.
Most A scalers can afford to retire at 55, I wont be able to retire until 65 the way things are going around here.