US Army Screws Up: UH-72A Lakota merged threads

[CDME]

Interesting News Report.

ARMY

The UH-72A Lakota helicopter.

Pentagon weapons testers say the Army's new European-designed and built
light utility helicopter has a couple of serious shortcomings that must be
remedied before it can fulfill many assigned missions.

A new report by the director of operational test and evaluation says the
Eurocopter UH-72A Lakota helicopter "is not operationally suitable,"
especially in hot environments, because its cockpit electronics systems
could fail because the air conditioning is inadequate.

The Army plans to buy 322 of the helicopters, a slightly modified version of
the commercial Eurocopter EC-145, which it selected last year for use by
stateside Army and National Guard units for light transport and
medical-evacuation missions.

The initial aircrafts produced under the $2 billion contract have been built
in France. American Eurocopter, the Grand Prairie-based arm of Eurocopter
and parent company EADS, will build the bulk of the new helicopters at a
plant in Columbus, Miss.

The report, based on testing that the Army performed with six of the new
helicopters in the desert conditions of Fort Irwin, Calif., found that there
was much to like about the UH-72A.

It says that the aircraft "is effective in the performance of light utility
missions" and that it appears to be reliable and easily maintained. It also
says that it has a low cost to operate and that it will be a significant
improvement over the aging UH-1H Hueys and OH-58 Kiowas now in operation.

But the aircraft cannot haul the desired loads at high-altitude and hot-day
conditions, and it is too small or is not organized to allow a medical
attendant to care for two critically injured patients on stretchers. It also
said crew members, patients and passengers would become very uncomfortable
because of the tightly sealed cabin's poor air conditioning.

The Army wants to use the helicopters to not only replace older aircraft but
also to allow it to move its workhorse Sikorsky UH-60 Blackhawks to combat
units.

A Eurocopter official said that the UH-72 meets the Army's specific
mandatory requirements and that ways to address key issues identified in the
report are being discussed.

"We're working with the Army ... to address the capability of the air
conditioning in this aircraft," said Randy Hutcherson, vice president of
rotorcraft for EADS North America and manager of the light utility
helicopter program.

The Army never specified a requirement that the helicopter be suited to
caring for two critically injured patients at the same time, Hutcherson
said, something not even required by civil medical-evacuation aircraft.

Army officials did not return a call seeking comment. They have said that
the UH-72 provided the most capability for the price.

The Army chose it in a competition that also included entries from Bell
Helicopter, MD Helicopters and Italy's AgustaWestland. The Bell and Agusta
offerings were larger, more powerful and costlier.

Bob Cox, 817-390-7723
[email protected] (http://www.heliopsmag.com:2095/3rdparty/squirrelmail/src/compose.php?send_to=rcox%40star-telegram.com)

[BlenderPilot]

I have heard from a friend that flies the 145 at altitude that the VNE on hot days around here can be below 100 kias!! Made me laugh that you could go faster in 206 at 8000 and 25 degress C.!!!!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

If it's anything like the 135 T1 CPDS in Kuwait, then even with the aircon running you wouldn't be able to operate any significant electrical role equipment.

We did ask if air-con air could be piped across the Pelican rack to supplement the non-existent cooling air from the avionics side blowers - back came a very firm "nein/non" from the company.

So yes, if the above experience is anything to go by then expect the AP to trip about 10 mins into every sortie above 40 deg C.

[JimEli]

>
I have heard from a friend that flies the 145 at altitude that the VNE on hot days around here can be below 100 kias!! Made me laugh that you could go faster in 206 at 8000 and 25 degress C.!!!!
<

better look up your 206 vne in the limitations section...

[Jolly Green]

I heard the 100 kt VNE was for flight with doors propped open. They should probably buy the air conditioner (and maybe even the medevac kit) for medevac ops in the SW US desert.

[Aesir]

better look up your 206 vne in the limitations section...



For 206B3, ISA, doors closed, below 3000 lbs comes to 105 kt Vne @ 10.000 msl :ok:

[anotherwirestriker]

8000 and 25 degress C = ISA :confused:

[Aesir]

For your information:

No, 25°c @ 8000´ is not equal to ISA!

However the Vne for JetRanger at those conditions is 103 Kts iaw BHT-206B3-FM-1 pg 1-18 rev.2

[Lutefisk989]

this is the Army's first real foray into using civil certification, rather than a MILSPEC.

i bet the A/C option wasn't listed as a requirement on the contract negotiated withe Eurocopter. I suspect there well could be other items that crop up. sadly, the Army views A/C as a 'creature comfort,' which is a four-letter word to the brass ("nothing's too good for our soldiers, and that's exactly what they'll get, nothing.") :bored:

[chuckolamofola]

this is the Army's first real foray into using civil certification, rather than a MILSPEC.
i bet the A/C option wasn't listed as a requirement on the contract negotiated withe Eurocopter. I suspect there well could be other items that crop up. sadly, the Army views A/C as a 'creature comfort,' which is a four-letter word to the brass ("nothing's too good for our soldiers, and that's exactly what they'll get, nothing.")
I bet Eurocopter knew that the ventilation was so poor that crews complained of the excessive heat before they made the Army proposal. Furthermore, I bet that Eurocopter knew that avionics were failing due to the high heat generated in the nose of the aircraft as the result of poor ventilation, as reported by the media. They could have certainly proposed an a/c on the basic aircraft as part of their initial proposal but elected to leave this out to further increase their margins.:= Of course this will greatly affect the payload, operating limits and further reduce its dismal hot and high capabilities. Eurocopter probably figured its not a realy problem unless the customer complains, if they do then we will charge them for mission creep. What a bunch of bunk, just like their hot and high capability.

I also don't agree with your statement regarding a/c and the Army. The AH64 has an outstanding a/c system that cools not only the pilots but the avionics bays also.

By the way, the Army purchased over 100 TH-67's (slightly modified 206bIII's)as a commercial product and currently maintain them as commercial aircraft.

[Beast Master]

:ok:Hard to believe that the Army was dumb enough not to buy the A/C for the TH-67s either... nothing like flying around in Alabama in the summer with gloves and a helmet on.

Of course, that is trivial compared to the "micro-climate-cooling" vest system that the Army has been slapping in -60s and -47s to make them bearable with all the bodyarmor and other junk that we had to wear in the 125 degree heat. Nothing like not having an inch of foresight...

I wonder why I left the Army...

[Lutefisk989]

I bet Eurocopter knew that the ventilation was so poor that crews complained of the excessive heat before they made the Army proposal. Furthermore, I bet that Eurocopter knew that avionics were failing due to the high heat generated in the nose of the aircraft as the result of poor ventilation, as reported by the media. They could have certainly proposed an a/c on the basic aircraft as part of their initial proposal but elected to leave this out to further increase their margins

Chuck: you may be right what Eurocopter knew (or not), but that's not the point. Army procurment says you must meet a minimum number of requirements, which are specified in the contract. if you propose additional items beyond those included in the Request For Proposal, you do so at your own risk because the extra items: (1) cost more; (2) weigh more; (3) are more difficult to maintain. IMO, Eurocopter was right not to include the A/C until an after it won the bid...it could have meant NOT winning the bid at all.

My beef is with the Army...I don't think they thought out their requirements very well at all, nor do I think they understand the nuances of the FARs. If you read their RFP last year, the aircraft could be "part 27 or part 29, or Cat-A or not...yada yada" If the Army wants to use civil cert, then fine...they need to be prepared for what they sign-up for. The avionics met the Part29 standard...which were NOT designed for operating at NTC in July.

Yes...the Apache had A/C...I used to fly them. But that was different: the Apache was designed to go into combat (which ostensibly, the UH72 is not...I'm not sure I believe that for a nanosecond); and (2) the avionics in the Apache also run the weapons systems. Some of the avionics aren't in the cockpit per se, but must still be cooled, as the weapons must work. (And it was still hot with the A/C turned full ON!) :)

Yes, the Army bought the TH67 through civil cert. But again, I believe there's a caveat. First, it is used ONLY at Rucker for training, and won't be deployed to active units (as is the UH72). And second, it is essentially a OH58.

[chuckolamofola]

My beef is with the Army...I don't think they thought out their requirements very well at all, nor do I think they understand the nuances of the FARs. If you read their RFP last year, the aircraft could be "part 27 or part 29, or Cat-A or not...yada yada" If the Army wants to use civil cert, then fine...they need to be prepared for what they sign-up for. The avionics met the Part29 standard...which were NOT designed for operating at NTC in July.

You're right the Army should have realized this much sooner and I wasn't letting the Army off, but Eruocopter certainly ain't the hero's here either. We'll low ball it on the front end and then charge them on the back end. I believe the 145 was certified to Part 27... However, if what you say is true then it isn't fit for Las Vegas, Phoenix, EL Paso or the GOM. I've seen cockpit temps in the GOM in summer approach 125 degrees "f" when closed up and heat soaked in the sun.

BTW, isn't Ft. Rucker "Regular Army" and the UH72A destined to go to Guard Units to free up UH60's for the Regular Army?

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm interesting ...

I guess the folks at Eurocopter have changed the A/C system on the EC145 form that used on the Bk117 series .... 'cos that was capable of sending ice crystals out of the ducts ... you could freeze a side of beef in the back if you wanted too!

So whats the story .... have they gone away from the Garrett system over to a R134a evaporative system or what???

:uhoh:

[widgeon]

On the EC135 one of the systems they proposed had a electrical driven compressor ( I guess they did not want power drain of taking it off the gear box ) , I cannot think it would be nearly as efficient as a belt driven compressor . I am not sure what they have used on the EC145 . I think Keith made one of the BK117 after market versions.

[RJ Kanary]

Actually, the reverse should be true.An electric motor driven refrigeration compressor would be the epitome of efficiency.A single constant speed, optimised for the anticipated heat removal load.Now, parasitic losses from the additional load to the A/C electrical system could make this approach difficult ot implement. :(

[Saber 09]

The issue is not that EC sold the Army a bad bird. The issue is that bean counters at higher levels within DA considered the A/C a luxury item and deleted it. The A/C does not keep up out there, because there is not one. There is a ventilation system, but not an A/C like the rest of us are used to. Not to mention 2 other key issues. The avionics are not certified to work above 95F OAT and the doors cannot be open in flight except when performing hoist ops. The TH-67 initially came with A/C. The Army then paid to have them removed before acceptance. Due to airframe issues caused by the doors being removed multiple times per day, they then paid to have A/C reinstalled on the initial fleet and all future deliveries. :D

The AH-1 and the AH-64 systems were sold as an Environmental Control Unit (ECU). These 2 aircraft have no window that can be opened in flight. The OH-58D started out with an ECU, but some nitwit changed the wording to reflect an A/C. Yet, it is loaded with avionics that constantly overheated during Desert Storm. := Early OH-58Ds still have a mount for the A/C on the power accessory gearbox. It was direct drive, and not piggybacked off of the TR driveshaft like the TH-67.

There are a lot of missions in the hot months due to heat injuries of course. Too bad the bean counters valued a few dollars over people's lives. :ugh:

Fortunately, many of these aircraft are going to VIP units. It will not take but a few VIP flights before we get an A/C. I just wonder how much more it will cost for it to be installed as an add-on. :confused:

On another note, as readers posted, this is not the 1st venture into FAA certified aircraft by the Army. There are currently about 200 N numbered (FAA registered) TH-67s at mother Rucker. And, they have not been maintained to FAA standards; but that is a whole other issue. :mad:

[TwinHueyMan]

Good thing they are having the avionics issues with the new helicopters... because its a known fact, if the crew is complaining, with no other arguments, nothing would be done. I've flown at NTC and hotter places in UH-60s with all windows shut (injured patients onboard), wearing armor and survival equipment, and our complaints haven't even gotten us the cooling vests... drink water and drive on, they say. Hell we still have to wear winter weight boots because they're the only ones authorized for flying.

And the Army wonders why retention is so low?

-Mike

[SASless]

Ah to be a bug on the wall during certain meetings....as quoted from a US Army Officer in re the OTS purchase of EC-145's for the US Army.....


"The Army may be learning that its performance requirements are so demanding that adapting commercial helicopters is almost as hard as starting from scratch on a new military design," Thompson said.:ouch::ouch:


Reckon some Navy Officers consulted with their Army counterparts on how to do aircraft purchasing?:E

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071109/ap_on_re_us/overheating_helicopters&printer=1;_ylt=ArOhEa7ktF2KNhOfp9OFiGtH2ocA


http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003664.html


Perhaps with the installation of air con on the new aircraft will lower the cockpit temperature to the level no damage will occur. I suppose all these civilian aircraft operating in areas where the cockpit temp exceeds 104 degrees F are death traps or something?

[Ian Corrigible]

Old news, since debunked, with AC on its way. It's just Duncan 'Buy America' Hunter having another rant.

Still, it's a good job the Army didn't opt for Rogerson Kratos displays... :E

I/C

[Tailspin Tommy]

New Army helicopters have heat flaw

Officials say they are unsafe to fly on hot day

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/11/09/1194665369_8206/539w.jpg (associated press/file)

Email (javascript:openWindow('http://tools.boston.com/pass-it-on?story_url=http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/11/10/new_army_helicopters_have_heat_flaw','mailit','scrollbars,re sizable,width=770,height=450');)|Print (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/11/10/new_army_helicopters_have_heat_flaw?mode=PF)| Text size – + By Aaron C. Davis
Associated Press / November 10, 2007
SACRAMENTO - The Army is spending $2.6 billion on hundreds of European-designed helicopters for homeland security and disaster relief that have a crucial flaw: They are not safe to fly on hot days, according to an internal report obtained by the Associated Press.
more stories like this




While the Army scrambles to fix the problem, potentially adding millions to the taxpayer cost, at least one high-ranking lawmaker is calling for the deal to be scrapped.
During flight tests in Southern California in mild 80-degree weather, cockpit temperatures in the UH-72A Lakota soared above 104 degrees, the point at which the Army says the communication, navigation, and flight-control systems can overheat and shut down.
No cockpit equipment failed during the nearly 23 hours of testing, according to the report, prepared for the Army in July. But it concluded that the aircraft "is not effective for use in hot environments."
The Army said that to fix the problem it will take the highly unusual step of adding air conditioners to many of the 322 helicopters ordered.
The retrofitting will cost at least $10 million and will come out of the Army's budget.
Kim Henry, a spokeswoman for US Army Aviation & Missile Command at Redstone Arsenal in Alabama, said that the Army began outfitting the helicopters with vents after the report was issued and that they have been effective at lowering temperatures.
The Army, however, decided it still needs to put air conditioning on many of the choppers, including all those configured for medical evacuations, said an Army spokesman, Major Tom McCuin..
Representative Duncan Hunter of California, the ranking Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, contends that the lightweight helicopter will still have too many weaknesses.
"In my view, we would be well advised to terminate the planned buy of 322 Lakota helicopters and purchase instead additional Blackhawk helicopters," Hunter said in a letter this week to Army Secretary Pete Geren.
But McCuin said, "It's certainly a concern to people out there in the field now because it's hot in those cockpits, but it's being fixed."
The Army has received 12 of the Lakotas from American Eurocopter Corp., a North American division of Germany's European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. Testing on the first six by an independent arm of the Pentagon revealed the problems. The rest of the choppers are scheduled for delivery over the next eight years.
The Lakota represents the Army's first major effort to adapt commercially available helicopters for military use. Air conditioning is standard in commercial versions of the aircraft, which have not had overheating problems. But the military usually avoids air conditioning in military aircraft to reduce weight and increase performance.
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."
The Army plans to use the Lakota for search-and-rescue missions in disaster areas, evacuations of injured people, reconnaissance, disaster relief, and VIP tours for members of Congress and Army brass. All of its missions will be in the United States or other noncombat zones.
Blackhawks, Chinooks, and other helicopters will still be available for more demanding duties, such as fighting wildfires.
Guy Hicks, a spokesman for European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., declined to comment directly on the criticism of the aircraft. "We're proud of our partnership with the Army and the UH-72A, but we defer on anything to do with aircraft requirements and performance. It's the Army's program and they should address that," he said.
The Lakota has another problem; testers said it fails to meet the Army's requirement that it be able to evacuate two critically injured patients at the same time. The Lakota can hold two patients, but the cabin is too cramped for medics to work on more than one at a time, the testers said.
The report by Dr. Charles McQueary, the Defense Department's director of operational testing, said that overall, the Lakota performs better than the Kiowa or Huey and that pilots found it easy to fly.
But the report said inadequate ventilation, heat emitted by aircraft electronics, and sunlight streaming through the large windows caused cockpit temperatures to reach 104.9 degrees during a simulated mission in California.
The aircraft's safe operating limit is 104 degrees, according to the Army.http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_story_end_icon.gif

[Alloa Akbar]

So let me get this right...

The US ARMY decide to buy the Lakota, presumably they did actually LOOK at one before they bought 322 and checked out the cabin size...?

The US ARMY decide not to bother with air con to save weight and improve performance.

So if the aircraft is "Unsafe" and "Flawed" then whose fault is that???

:ugh:

[Tailspin Tommy]

Makes me wonder the same. I'm sure that there is plenty of blame to go around. I can't believe that this aircraft wasn't researched more carefully. Sounds like abuse of procurement procedures somewhere in this mess. :uhoh:

[Helipolarbear]

Was always going to be a bad choice especially fo the Medevac role.
Not the dumbest thing the Army has done with helicopters. Army Reg 95-1 prohibited smoking onboard. (I'm sure it still does) Yet just about every Blackhawk was fitted with TWO ashtrays....for the pilots pf course......at a cost of about (1993 property book values) $450.00 each.
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Alloa Akbar]

Tailspin procurement procedures

Obviously about as much use as Anne Frank's Drum Kit!:rolleyes:

[Bertie Thruster]

....and poopooed the Arizona option.....

Helicopters also feature heavily in the Dubai 2007 showing with the MD 902 Helicopter making its regional exhibition debut. Boasting state-of-the-art patented “NOTAR” (No Tail Rotor) technology, which increases passenger and bystander safety, reduces pilot workload and lowers external noise levels, the MD is a sought after model for EMS services throughout the region, especially as it is well equipped to deal with the Middle East’s high temperatures.

[reckless1967]

It's purpose was to replace 2 existing legacy aircraft AND free up UH-60's for the overseas duty. It was not designed to compete with the 60 or do the 60's job. NONE of the aircraft (412, 139, 902) in the competition were or could. So people should stop comparing it to the 60.

The LUH is 'off the shelf' product. Therefore the avionics are the same as those in the commercial versions of the EC145 that fly everyday in all conditions. I've flown many an hour in the 145 in the Amercan southwes without A/C and with OAT's exceeding 95F and have never had an 'unsafe' failure condition result because of it. Yes the 145 cockpit is hotter than other cockpits but not significantly so. It's not that much worse than a 407 or 212.

As far as the 'unusual step of adding air conditioners' to my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, don't all Army medevac 60's have A/C for patient comfort?

What this article says to me is that the OT pilots and crew are trying to force the issue of putting an A/C in the aircraft by flagging the cockpit environment as a safety of flight issue to get the A/C installed (which it should have been to begin with). I've been on military programs before where both the engineers and crew pleaded for A some sort of ECS in the aircraft and the PM's refused to put it in because of cost, so this isn't a first. I'm sure the Army was well aware of the issue but was keeping it's fingers crossed that they wouldn't have to deal with it.

Bertie Thruster (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=11651), as far as your comment for the 902 goes,
'especially as it is well equipped to deal with the Middle East’s high temperatures'
so is the 145 with A/C. The Army did not want the A/C option in ANY of the competing aircraft so you would have had a similar issue, and how many patitents can you work on in the back of a 902 at one time?

[Alloa Akbar]

Would that be the same MD whose name is synonymous with Company stability, spares provision and customer support??:p

[Dan Reno]

Like the VIP 101 for the US Prez, this POS is simply some payback to Europe for terrorist support and to provide big $$ to improve their very marginal airframes. US $$ will fix aeverthing Europeon while the US Services get to work out and/or die from these poor designs. Bottom line? The 101 and this crowd-displeaser were simply POLITICAL buys and not on technical or airworthy merit.

[Alloa Akbar]

Dan

Air conditioning is standard in commercial versions of the aircraft, which have not had overheating problems. But the military usually avoids air conditioning in military aircraft to reduce weight and increase performance.
"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."


Looks like a perfectly good aircraft screwed up by the UNITED STATES MILITARY, lack of forethought, lack of planning, and making decisions they later regret.. Then blame somebody else :D Nice one.

Lets not turn an otherwise amusing thread (well it is for us Europeans:E) into another anti US101 thread, you and your esteemed colleagues from Connecticut already have a thread in which to do that to your little hearts content.:rolleyes:

[tottigol]

Love the way Dan Reno always tries to redirect a thread with some technical content over political shoals.

He has no technical knowledge other than what he reads here and in some magazines.

The LUH requirements were for an "off-the-shelf" platform to be used in the CONUS and perhaps AK and HI; the RFP never intended it to be deployed outside of these theaters, however ya' know what value that carries in the Armed Forces of any Country.

Obviously Reno is oblivious to the contents and history of the LUH contract, otherwise he would know how one of the "domestic" contenders managed to botch it out by providing a substandard airframe, and what the reasons behind the choice were.

The EC-145 is quickly becoming the airframe of choice for most of the US EMS programs, it is designed to fly in typical SW temperatures, IFR with and without NVG equipment (so the interior lighting is already available for NVG operations).

The MD line of products (not just the 902) is very well known for two factors:
The looks of their corporate owner and their pathetic lack of any capability to provide substantial support.
NOTAR T/R authority notwistanding, they are nice helicopter to fly, but if you canot keep them in the air and expect the government to finance your operation just for that I believe you should NOT expect to be picked as a winner.

You tell me this is another European piece of crap without any technical support I call that prejudice.
If you lack the material to attend a forum of this sort (as you've demostrated before), I suggest you stay out of it.:=

[Shell Management]

Bertie Thruster

Did you read this before you posted?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=300309

[reckless1967]

Reno said:
Like the VIP 101 for the US Prez, this POS is simply some payback to Europe for terrorist support and to provide big $$ to improve their very marginal airframes. US $$ will fix aeverthing Europeon while the US Services get to work out and/or die from these poor designs. Bottom line? The 101 and this crowd-displeaser were simply POLITICAL buys and not on technical or airworthy merit.

Has anyone said the 101 is marginal or unsafe? Are 101s dropping out of the sky? I don't think so. There are many happy 101 customers out there. Is it built to the same standard as the 92? No, but it is also older. Taking your premis than anything (90% of the RW aircraft in the world, American and otherwise) is substandard and according to you apparently shouldn't fly.

I've flown 2 of the 4 aircraft considered for this competion, the 145 and the 412. Have you flown either? Seen maintenance been done on either? I have. The vast majority of my flight time is in Bell products (14 yrs flying USMC H-1's) and flying Bell commercial products. Given a choice between the 412 and the 145 I'll take the 145 any day. As far as improving 'their very marginal airframes' how is installing an already available (and highly recommended air conditioner) improving an airframe? How is the USA neglecting to purchase the A/C in order to save money make an airframe marginal?

I think Dan that you are a Xenophobe and don't know what you are talking about.

[Bertie Thruster]

Yes. And quite pleased in the crash worthiness indicated from the photos.

[WillDAQ]

Like the VIP 101 for the US Prez, this POS is simply some payback to Europe for terrorist support and to provide big $$ to improve their very marginal airframes. US $$ will fix aeverthing Europeon while the US Services get to work out and/or die from these poor designs. Bottom line? The 101 and this crowd-displeaser were simply POLITICAL buys and not on technical or airworthy merit.Lets go back to the sub title of this piece:

New Army helicopters have heat flaw

And what is this flaw?

"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, McCuin said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."

So in fact there is nothing wrong with the aircraft, they simply decided for some strange reason not to buy the optional extras required to operate in hot climates, and then proceeded to operate in hot climates.

Were there actually something wrong with the aircraft, in that they didn't meet the specification laid down by the Army, then you can bet they'd be expecting Eurocopter to foot the bill. But they specified it wrong, which is their fault, leaving them with the bill.

The only difference between this case and if it had been a US supplier is that this is far to good an opportunity to stir up some xenophobia to miss.

How this relates to The War on Terror™, American Soldiers Dying For Their Country™ or the AW101 is beyond me. But then don't let facts get in the way of talking utter s***.

[500e]

I did not get aircon on my last car either, it was an option but it was extra $$ so thought I could do without it.
If we get a hot summer could I ask General motors to fit it for free?:E
And as for the medivac ( not enough room) one presumes at least one of the committee had a look\ fly \examined the machine before spending all that money, if not why not and who will be hung out to dry for it, this is the same as the 101 if you keep asking for changes the delivery will slip & the preformance will vary from expected.
If is not what you require don't buy, or have a clear understanding who foots the bill for changes, & how they will affect overall preformance.
As for MD I am surprised it was mentioned, things are getting better, but they are not in the equation at present.

[SilsoeSid]

Some of us always thought the 900 series the best aircraft for the contract, but no, there were those who continued with the MD hate posts such as Alloa Akbars above " Would that be the same MD whose name is synonymous with Company stability, spares provision and customer support?? ". All that was needed to solve those problems immediately and everyone knew it, was the award of the contract to the most suitable a/c. (The problems have been sorted eventually regardless of contract anyway I believe.)

The problem with this business is just because a female is head of a company, ranks close and the old boys get their way!

And Mr 'Shell Management' the reason you haven't a similar link that you threw at Bertie for the 145, is simply due to the fact it is a newcomer, ie untested or proven until it's too late.....like now!

By the way, adding an air con not only makes it cooler for the pilots, those hardy US aviators, but adds a fair bit of weight...in excess of 100lbs... a really good idea for a hot climate that one!!! How about air deflectors to scoop the air in!!

http://www.aircommcorp.com/htdocs/PDFs/EC145-200D_Rev0.pdf
http://www.aircommcorp.com/htdocs/PDFs/EC145-200M-1_Rev_2_ICA.pdf

[AFCSoff]

This entire issue can be summed up by one succinct quotation:

"We don't need air conditioning in the Blackhawks, so we didn't think it would be an issue" in the Lakota, [an U.S. Army spokesmen] said. "But when we got the helicopter into the desert, we realized it was a problem."

This is a classic example of one of the services not having the foresight to accurately predict requirements. This is what happens when a bunch of guys with a single airframe mindset (the '60, in this case) try to apply their past experience as the sole basis of comparison for future mission sets. This same sort of reasoning (by a bunch of USMC '46 guys) is the root cause of many of the V-22's specific limitations.

Both the USA and USMC suffer from the integral problem that since aviation is not their core competency, their respective service models of fielding new aircraft can be somewhat limited in scope. This is not to say that their aviators and aircraft aren't highly capable, just that they are sometimes hobbled by a lack of perspective by their aquisitions folks who are hard pressed to think "outside the box" when publishing RFPs and later on during DT/OT. I've flown with both services and seen this first hand.

Bottom line here...despite my allegiance to the U.S. and the implicit need to "buy American," anyone that claims Eurocopter or their product is lacking is simply trying to cover up the fact that U.S. Army didn't do their homework when envisioning the flight envelope in which the LUH (regardless of who finally won the contract) would be forced to operate.

Just my humble opinion....

[Senior Pilot]

We have had three threads on this subject: they are now merged into one :ok:

[maxtork]

There is another way to look at this whole thing. We all assume that the lack of AC was an oops on the part of the aquisition folks. If we were to go back and do it again and ask for AC in the aircraft that would add just over $31M if you use the $98K per aircraft price given in the article and 322 aircraft total. Now we would have spent a bunch of money air conditioning helicopters in North Dakota and Alaska. If we left the AC out of the mix up front and then showed a need for it in the aircraft in certain locations then we can equip them accordingly. Even if they decide that half of them need it that is still a $15M savings. I know they may have gotten a discount for buying in bulk but I doubt they would get a 50% off difference for buying 322 systems instead of 166. Hind sight is always 20/20 and I don't know of anyone who has operated this particular aircraft in that location enough to prove that it absolutely needed the AC. Sure one could argue that they could have spec'd out AC on only half the ships right up front but I can tell you that the fielding schedule for this aircraft changes frequently so it surely wouldn't work out as smooth in practice as it does in theory.
That being said, I wouldn't say the program is perfect but I wouldn't say the AC is nearly the issue that it is being made out to be.
Max

[160thfan]

I bet some of the guys loosing their blackhawks to fly this are complaining to the press. This all seems like a big nothing.

How many times do they ever carry 2 litters?

[TwinHueyMan]

"How many times do they ever carry 2 litters?"

Half of the times the Fort Irwin medevac came to our little dumpy FOB at the NTC, they picked up 2+ people. Thing is, you can't really properly treat more than 1 critical patient with 1 medic in the back of a Blackhawk, so the little EC that could isn't much of a downgrade. Hell its probably easier in the EC than it is with the stacking contraption they have in the back of those dilapidated retro 70's blackhawks they give us anyways.

-Mike

[Alloa Akbar]

Silsoesid

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against MD, its just that given certain situations in recent times, I could see why the military may have been influenced away from MD at the time of contract award. I appreciate that the contract was awarded on a whole list of criteria, but it would be incredibly naive to think that the alleged public shortcomings of MD as an OEM, albeit in the days before the gorgeous pouting Ms Tilton was in charge, would have a bearing on the decision. She talks tough, and I'm sure she does and will continue to do a fantastic job, but this time around, like it or not, MD were unsuccessful, thats all. If anything I admire her spirit for not taking the decision lying down.

AA

[Bertie Thruster]

I wonder if the heat problem in the 145's might be similar to to that experienced in the 135's operated in the middle east. Even with a/c the 135's avionics (efis, fadec and especially autopilot) don't seem to cope with the heat, even after only a few minutes flying.

.....tried a 902 the other day for 2.5hrs at 38' oat, no a/c, (felt about 45' in the cockpit) Everything worked fine.

[reckless1967]

'For 206B3, ISA, doors closed, below 3000 lbs comes to 105 kt Vne @ 10.000 msl'

From the EC145 FM:

10,000 MSL, +30c below 6,600 lbs...120kts
above 6,600 lbs...105kts

'They could have certainly proposed an a/c on the basic aircraft as part of their initial proposal but elected to leave this out to further increase their margins'
I know that at least two of the manufacturers (EC and Bell) proposed/recommended A/C and were told by the USA that it wasn't needed.

[500e]

Ok the air con MIGHT be marginally debatable, the procurement people say they don't want it, their choice.
But the medivac is a question of can 2 litters fit & medics do the required treatment yes or no? if no why was it chosen?? Grade A screw up maybe, but don't complain about airframe.

[SASless]

Some civilian 412 EMS aircraft are equipped to carry four patients. The standard crew is two medical personnel in the cabin thus they have an ability to handle more than one patient. The number of patients they can care for is predicated upon the severity of patients and the amount of care they require. I have carried a third medical crewmember when transporting two critical patients or when transporting a premature birth infant and a Isolette.

Excess capability beats lack of capability by far....and in time will cost less than the "cheap" way.

[tottigol]

SAS and I worked for the same program (alas not at the same time), he definetely knows that capability is often not meant to be used routinely. The two patients capability of the EC-145/H-72 is real, just ask any of the several programs that are actively using it for that purpose, to include Travis County EMS in Austin TX. These guys/gals have been using the EC-145 in a role as close as you are going to get in the Armed Forces, down to the use of rappeling,body armor, FLIR, NVGs and rescue hoist.
The STARFLIGHT program was smart enough to include airconditioning in their birds though, go figure.:ugh:
http://www.airambulancetechnology.com/BILDER/bilder/he_ec-145-6.jpg
http://www.starflightrescue.org/Rope%20n%20Rotors/Helicopters/Helicopters.htm
For the record, Eurocopter has already been testing a new five bladed rotor head for the EC-145, based on the EC-135 system.

[maxtork]

SASless,

While it may seem better to have excess capability in one machine you have to keep in mind the mission as well. These are not being operated like the typical commercial EMS vendor where you may be the only aircraft available for many miles and therefore you may need to be able to carry all or as many of the victims as possible at a scene. In the Army's case they have several of these aircraft based at the same location so they can dispatch more than one machine if there are multiple casualties. In this way you might actually be better off in that you have two medics in each ship caring for one patient instead of a one to one ratio if they doubled up the occupancy.

Also keep in mind that not all of these aircraft are going to be Medevac ships. In fact last I heard only about one quarter to one third will be such. Sure they could have opted for the worlds greatest EMS aircraft but what will suffer in the other roles the aircraft will perform?

Max

[widgeon]

Actually there was a spelling mistake in the RFQ that required the helicopter to take 2 liters.