View Full Version : what is the worst ever salary?
126.825
20th Jan 2002, 22:35
Just curious but what was/is the worst ever salary an ATPL has ever had. i have heard of different systems where you pay for a rating and then the company pay back your investment for working for them?
so who has had a really poor salary?
splir
21st Jan 2002, 02:09
... 600 GBP per month for a B737-400 First Officer!
Any comments?????
wysiwyg
21st Jan 2002, 03:40
SkyTrek used to employ first officers for their Trislanders and paid them...........NOTHING!!!
robinoflotusland
21st Jan 2002, 05:27
No doubt you mean current pay rates,but maybe a bit of history won't be amiss. Way back when (1954) BOAC were paying a new ALTP 1200 a Year, a Senior skipper on top whack grossed 2500 at that time as a S/O with CPL and FN 22 my rate was 905. Why do I remember? - about that time in a local rag I read of a BOAC office staffer of 24 with no listed qualifications pulling in a 1000 a year was up before the beak for nicking off his workmates.
Times 30 on the above numbers will approximate to todays ball park figures, at the time the State Corp were best p[ayers in the business in UK.
There's always been a rough end in the business and too few plum jobs to aspire to it's the love of flying that won't let one go so even though a bunch of us are not monkeys some ruthless bosses will always pay peanuts
Try my old job on the right seat of the A300-600 flying 22 days a month with request for vacation days always denied for an equivalent to $1300 USD. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
What about many jobs out of Holland.. .500 hrs on a B-1900 C or D, salary nil, expenses nil, even pay for your own hotel when having a night stop. Worst is you pay about 30.000 Euros to get the job.
There are many examples of this kind of abuse.. .(Bin-air, Tulip-Air, Farnair,etc......
TowerDog
21st Jan 2002, 18:31
+TS:
Do they get any applicants? <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Yes Towerdog they do. In bad periods like these you are even lucky if you secure such a job.
Flintstone
21st Jan 2002, 22:19
And do the people who secure these 'jobs' care that by paying to work they are undermining their colleagues?
Flying for nothing is bad enough but this really winds me up.
JJflyer
21st Jan 2002, 22:44
A friend of mine made 41 USD before taxes last month. He flies for a well know LAS duschbag tour operator. Worst I ever made working for the same company was about 300 USD a month <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
knows
22nd Jan 2002, 00:34
Working for Monarch (without a contract)as a CTC B 757 F/O.. .(sadly undermining other F/O's , pilot remuneration etc.). .Pay..nil, just a few crappy allowances.
Yes Flinstone this is the issue. They are blamed by many others. Still they are cueing-up.
gingernutter
22nd Jan 2002, 01:08
I used to work for a certain Danish Company (the words "Air" and "Transport" were in the name of the company as well) They used to charge their f/o's about £40 per trip to fly a turboprop on P/T operations, that's after you have paid for your own type rating ! ! !
NdekePilot
22nd Jan 2002, 01:34
US$450 per month flying a Beech 1900D on schedules for the now called Zambian Airways. But I did get a day off every three to four weeks so I guess I shouldn't complain! It was all good fun, and good experience but could never really understand why they were so surprised when we left.... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Jetdriver
23rd Jan 2002, 03:51
Knows,
The CTC low hour pilots who worked as 757 F/O's for Monarch were offered 6 months employment as a result of a contract between CTC and Monarch I believe. The Pilots were payed ( or perhaps more correctly repaid around £1000 per month by CTC. Many of those CTC pilots were involved with long haul operations to Bangkok etc so their "crappy" allowances were not too shabby ( I know ,I paid some of them !)
I am not sure how they "undermined" other F/O's or their salaries ? As I recall most of these fine ladies and gentlemen had very low hours and had utilized an opportunity that was available between CTC and Monarch to obtain a 757 rating and 6 months intensive ( it was summer ) experience to put some heavy hours under their belts. They would have achieved that if nothing else. In reality some stayed on at Monarch on permanent contracts ( after 6 months) then earning salaries in the mid 20k region rising within only a few months to the appropriate standard salary grade. Others that could not be offered permanent contracts were assisted in finding employment with companies such as the then Flying Colours etc.
It was quite a few years ago that this opportunity existed and today some of those young pilots are still here earning a very good salary with high industry standard benefits.
I bet there are plenty of people reading these forums that would give their eye teeth for a similar opportunity today, so if this was the "worst ever salary" there must be some very lucky people out there.
wysiwyg
23rd Jan 2002, 15:58
Surely these CTC guys are some of the luckiest people in commercial aviation bypassing the donkeywork jobs and going straight into the right seat of quality jets with quality carriers.
Flintstone
24th Jan 2002, 00:13
If you can't see how undercutting your so called colleagues undermines them then it would take longer than I have to explain it to you.
Tell you what. Why don't we just offer jobs on an auction basis? He/she who will work for the least (or better still pay the employer the most) gets the slot regardless of experience.
If someone is qualfied and capable of doing the job they should be paid accordingly. No haggling, no excuses and none of this nonsense about paying peanuts because the pilots are only doing it for the experience/it's a short contract/they owe their trainers money.
Fonck
25th Jan 2002, 15:34
+TS,
Are you really flying for nothing ?. .Did you sign any contract ?
In Europe, if you are doing a job, whatever..., and having no salary, that's SLAVERY !. .So, buddy, just go to any pilots union, or to a French lawyer, and go to the European Human Rights Court. You'll win, for sure !
Cheers,
--------------------------------------------------. .Look through the window <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Hay Fonck, No I am not into slavery (jobwise) but I know what is happening around me. . .Mainly Holland has more pilots than jobs and prospects are not that good (like evrywhere)this is creating a situation were guys are willing to accept these things. They sign for it. So legally nothing wrong I think. Humanwise totaly wrong and not professional.
ILS27R
25th Jan 2002, 19:20
How can you guys live on such low or sometimes non-existent wages?? It would be hard enough for normal people let alone pilots who may have large debts to their name!!
So whats the secret then?
ehwatezedoing
25th Jan 2002, 23:10
Mommy & daddy !!!??
When I was a TriStar Capt at Air Lanka in 83, $2700 a month, housing not included
Flintstone
It's called Market forces.
When the supply exceeds demand, the price (salaries) drop. Thats business. Get used to it.
It's the same in every profession known. Have a look at Junior Doctors for example...18 hour shifts for buttons.
And as for the Band of Brothers notion that we should all pull together.....
I'm afraid that if I have to feed my family, I'll do whatever work I can, for whatever pay I can get
In nov.after paying my rent I was left with $85 to live for a month.Made it,thanks to cheap noodles....... .The ripple-effect of sept 11 I guess.. .Been out of the Holland-loop for 2 years now,but this is still common practice.. .The big aviation-schools(yes the 0-ATPL ones)promise you the world.Like a "garanteed F/O internship",valuable jet/turbine experience etc.. .Almost fell for it too...couldn't afford it though.. .Small carriers/charters/freighters sometimes have an exclusive deal with one of the big schools.. .They only accept their students and make'em pay for their type-rating.Up to $45000..... .Somebody I used to know did this with Tulip-air out of Rotterdam.Spend a year standby,meaning the'd call him and he had to be there in 45min.Any time of the day.. .I'll work for low wages(if it's a step up or leading to..)but this is plain stupid.. .Market-forces...yes..big pool of sharks...also... .Just remember,it takes a lot of hard work to get anywhere,a couple of years of your life and don't give all your money to the first magician that blows a lot of smoke.
Harry Wragg
29th Jan 2002, 21:55
To all those people that quote market forces I would dearly love to approach your boss and offer to do your job for 50% of what you cost, then I'll go quote "market forces" to you, see how you like it. Bet you change your tune pretty damn quickly. A bit like the US of A, talks a good game when it comes to free markets, but in actually is a controlled protectionist based economy.
Harry
Harry,
Been there, had it done to me, and what could I do about it.....the square root of FA. Similarly, my current employer has told us, "Sorry , no pay rise, cut back on allowances", and what can I do about it? See above
And what do BALPA say? Hey keep calm guys, lucky to have jobs etc etc.
My point is just that, you are only as valuable as the guy who walks in the door and offers to do your job for less. Same is true for all jobs, and the sooner we get to grips with this the better.
Pointer
30th Jan 2002, 17:18
flintstone : jou said....
[quote]If someone is qualfied and capable of doing the job they should be paid accordingly. No haggling, no excuses and none of this nonsense about paying peanuts because the pilots are only doing it for the experience/it's a short contract/they owe their trainers money. <hr></blockquote>
It's a bit of an arogant attitude to call your colleagues that, wouldn't you say??? Most of these girls and boys are on the brink of bankrupcy and theire parents are about to lose theire home! just because "fellow colleagues" like you say they are undermining things! use youre brain and blaim the institutions and company's that allow or actualy susstain this scheme. Most are prommissed a glorious carreer...just sign here. I've been there and i almost opted for a job where i would earn less and pay for "training" all set up by a "school". Those people should be blaimed and i think theire fine colleagues should make a stand that the company's are not making any deals with companys who let theire "employees" pay theire way!
sorry if i offended any of my colleagues, but i've been on the road of financial ruine myself because of people lying and extorsion.
th th tha thats all folks!
Richard Spandit
2nd Feb 2002, 17:06
I was contacted by a gentleman searching for some advice on setting up a scheme for newly qualified ATPL's. He wanted people to pay him about £12,000 or so for a Tristar (or might've been DC-10) type rating, and in return they would get a job where they worked for nothing but flight allowances. Considering this gentleman in his e-mails changed to name of his airline about three times, I thought there was something a bit fishy going on and I haven't heard anything since.
It makes me laugh that during CAP509 training, you hear people saying how they would gladly work for free, or just FDA, but as soon as they get a job, start whingeing like the rest of us. Some airlines will continue to get away with offering derisory salaries, because people are desperate for jobs, especially at the moment. Airlines are all run by accountants, otherwise I'm sure we'd all be minted and have little to complain about.
Flintstone
2nd Feb 2002, 21:01
Well said Harry Wragg. Sauce for the goose and all that.
ADC. Firstly, I have exactly the same attitude as you when it comes to keeping my family fed. I'll do any job I have to (and I've had some beauties) but I will not stoop to undercutting those I consider to be colleagues. Maybe I have a somewhat rose-tinted view of the world but at least I will never have to worry about who I might sit next to on the flight deck or opposite at the interview board. As we all know, it's a small world. Instead of attacking me shouldn't you be directing your ire at the "...guy who walks in the door and offers to do your job for less..."?
Pointer, I wish you would make yours clearer. I'm assuming that English is not your first language but despite having read your post many times it still doesn't make sense.
You pasted in a quote from me and accuse me of calling my colleagues something. Nowhere in that passage do I call anyone anything. I was expressing the opinion that they should be paid properly. I am on their side, geddit?!
On the other hand if we are talking about the sort of person who flys for nothing (or worse) then that's a different story. For those people I have nothing but contempt and before you accuse me of being arrogant again I would point out that back in the days when I held a shiny new CPL I was offered similar opportunities and turned them down.
I'm sorry if you were taken in by a flying school who made empty promises. That's an entirely different subject but if you want to let off steam start a thread. Trust me, it's good for the soul.
[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Flintstone ]</p>
thedove
7th Feb 2002, 18:33
ouch - doesn't minimum wage come into play. I know it's crap but it is better than nought!