BA and BALPA already agreed on EU 757 Pilots

[Angryfool]

Hi
A very strong rumour (ok from 1 person) circulating is that British Airways and Balpa have already agreed on the crewing of the EU based 757 Open Skies flights to the US. As far as I knew, things hadn't progressed that far yet. My source informs me that BA and Balpa have 'agreed' to use non mainline flight crew, and some members of Balpa are trying to convince the members that BA pilots are the most costly and least efficient in Europe!!
I hope it's not true but sounds very worrying that there seems to be a lot of talk from within Balpa about how costly we are. Perhaps by trying this 'spin', when the company does announce that the 757's will be crewed by non mainline pilots, the union will say ' hey guys, what do you expect, we just cost too much'
Perhaps i'm paranoid:rolleyes:

[False Capture]

... hey guys, what do you expect, we just cost too muchBloody right we do.:ok:

Compared to other airlines, we get lots of money and lots of time off. If this wasn't the case then I'd work for someone else.

[bermudatriangle]

mainline crew will operate the new routes....keeps it simple,easy to integrate and substitute when necessary.crewing costs not an issue as loads of money to be made from the open skies so long as we get in quickly.any delay due to crewing of pilots or cabin crew would be a disaster.easy to integrate..i.e.....LHR/JFK/FRA/EWR/LHR...lets start raking in the $$$$$ sss asap

[Re-Heat]

It makes sense to use local crews - eliminating hotels and positioning.

Just set it up as Manchester used to be, and ensure that no London routes are outsourced. Not an issue.

How can this at all be an issue when living and working from a lower-cost city than London logically means a lower salary?!

[Hand Solo]

So logically if you live in Birmingham and work out of LHR then you should earn less money than if you live in London and work out of LHR. Hmmmm.:hmm:

[Re-Heat]

Live where you choose - Birmingham and Manchester bases worked fine.

[XRJ]

Not swallowing any of that. I hope BALPA will fight very hard indeed to set up bases with mainline crews. That's what they're paid for.

[FlyingTom]

I think BALPA's point about BA pilots being at the top of the benchmark is more to do with encouraging us to support the union and recognise that it is BALPA that has achieved that benchmark. We should be positive about it.

After all, we are not well paid because BA have said "lets pay our pilots a bloody good wage because they deserve it", they would however say "lets start a second airline and undermine the bloody good wage of existing pilots." BALPA are currently fighting off attacks from all angles and need the support of every pilot. If we can't see the wood from the trees there is a tendancy to blame BALPA rather than BA.

I think BALPA are trying to address the culture of "moaning Nigel", and change it into "winning Nigel". Because if you don't recognise you've got something worth fighting for, and an effective union, you're not going to fight for it.

Air Lingus pilots have got the back bone to stand up for themselves, see Aldergrove strike 21/22nd August. They know they're at the top of the benchmark, they support their union, they saw off WW long ago and they will win. :D

[Angryfool]

Not swallowing any of that. I hope BALPA will fight very hard indeed to set up bases with mainline crews. That's what they're paid for.

I hope so as well XRJ, but it seems the company will want to source it with non mainline pilots because it will be cheaper, according to them. So at some point it will be a fight between Balpa and BA over who should crew these flights. I think it's already been decided, but if it hasn't then it will be interesting to see how Balpa play their hand.

I think BALPA's point about BA pilots being at the top of the benchmark is more to do with encouraging us to support the union and recognise that it is BALPA that has achieved that benchmark. We should be positive about it.

BA pilots are not the top of the tree, yet Balpa seem to be preaching that we are. Air France and Iberia have better pay/conditions to name but 2 airlines. It's nothing about supporting Balpa, but more to do with something brewing between BA and Balpa.

Let's wait and see to see Balpa's direction with the first test, the work coverage talks

[Hand Solo]

Are you sure about those Air France/Iberia conditions? Air France perhaps, but that is a partially state owned and state protected airline. The IB guys I've spoken to don't score themselves quite as highly as you do. I'm not really buying the BALPA submission line, particularly as one of the vice-chairmen is regularly hinting that they might need to call on members support over this issue in the near future. I suspect whoever is spreading the rumour of capitulation is closely associated with the dark side and indulging in some deliberate rumour-mongering.

[bluepilot]

Air France has been a private company for some time now.

[Hand Solo]

Have the French government sold their 19% stake in the merged business?

[Angryfool]

Are you sure about those Air France/Iberia conditions?

Yes I am. The Iberia pilots that you met, did they disclose any information about hours flown/year, pension, benifits etc. Both mainline Air France and Iberia pilots have a better package than ourselves. Some Balpa reps seem to think this is not the case, however suprise suprise their figures have not been made public to the members:= Why is this I ask? They seem to harp on about it.

ir France perhaps, but that is a partially state owned and state protected airline

I don't know if it is Hand Solo, but that is not the point I am trying to make.
My point is that we are being fed 'spin' by being told we are the best paid. Where are the numbers?? Make them public to the members please if that is what you believe, and compare like with like.

[Hand Solo]

The Iberia pilot I spoke to was an A340 pilot flying similar hours (at the time) but making less money than an equivalent BA pilot would be. I am afraid it is up to you Angryfool to prove your information is correct. There are enough reps in the BACC to sound the alarm if BALPAs benchmarking figures were being deliberately doctored. If you have hard evidence to prove that other airlines are doing better than us then show us so we have something to aim towards. If you have the numbers then make them public and blow BALPA out of the water for us.

[Airbrake]

If BA does start to base permanantly base crews at european bases they will encounter the same problems as Easyjet (and others) concerning local employment laws and taxation rules.
As always nothing is as straight forward as it initialy looks.

[TopBunk]

I'd rather imagine the BA would prefer to set the operation up with New York based pilots rather than European bases. Either way, hotel accommodation will be required somewhere.

It is the resolve of BA pilots and BALPA to ensure that the pilots are actually existing BA pilots and to find a way with BA of making the costing work.

[Propellerhead]

AngryFool, are you a BALPA member? If so, go on the BALPA forum and ask directly the question. I'm sure the reps would be more than willing to answer your question directly. If you're not, then you you have no right to criticise BALPA or even be asking the question. I don't think spreading rumours like this in public is helpful to BA pilots, or BALPA who I'm sure are doing their upmost to address this issue. It just undermines their position. I know this is a rumour network but there are over 3000 people's careers which could be affected by this issue and I think you should consider this more before posting unfounded rumours on a public forum. Rant over!! :)

[HZ123]

Once again it seems to be something that is not thought out fully. Indeed there is business to be gained from this operation but many others are already doing it and doing it well. For BA to set up yet again another offshot may well prove to be a failure. At BA we presently have more than a few serious problems that need to be rectified without been diverted on another scheme.

[Angryfool]

AngryFool, are you a BALPA member? If so, go on the BALPA forum and ask directly the question. I'm sure the reps would be more than willing to answer your question directly. If you're not, then you you have no right to criticise BALPA or even be asking the question

Propellerhead, I am indeed a Balpa member, and I think you will find the question has been asked directly and indirectly. Are the Reps answering the question? Has any Rep posted the other EU airlines pay scales even though they have been asked to provide evidence for their comments? Well as far as I know the answer to the latter question is NO, and the reason, well it's too confidential to be posted on the forum. Give me a break! If a Rep comes out with a comment like, oh BA pilots are the best paid etc, then show the research to the BALPA members and don't hide behind the usual you people don't understand or it's confidential information.

I don't think spreading rumours like this in public is helpful to BA pilots, or BALPA who I'm sure are doing their upmost to address this issue

The basis for this rumour is a BA manager, and yes, he might be lying and stirring it up, then maybe perhaps not. But it's strange how several BA managers have now said this, and around the same time, Balpa start talking about how costly we are. Why do Balpa even need to mention this? I always thought that it was managements job to make us think how fortunate we are, not my own Union!

If and when this happens, and BA mainline pilots are used, then I will stand corrected and be very:O


I can say with absolute certainty that this rumour is FALSE.

I hope so BigBurtha


Once again it seems to be something that is not thought out fully.

That would be most management decisions in BA then. Has not stoped them before and will not do again.

[Barry McDougal]

Angryfool,
Even if what you say is true,I doubt very much the members will strike if balloted. It will not be an issue balpa will war over with the company and even if they wanted to,will not have the backing of the majority of it's members.

I believe BA have decided how they will crew the operation but do not go along with your assertion that balpa have agreed or indeed know. I think you will find that when the time comes they will decide what happens and have no need to negotiate with balpa. To negotiate would imply that balpa have some influence on key financial decisions the company makes. :ooh:

[Carnage Matey!]

Has any Rep posted the other EU airlines pay scales even though they have been asked to provide evidence for their comments? Well as far as I know the answer to the latter question is NO, and the reason, well it's too confidential to be posted on the forum. Give me a break!

Perhaps you should give us a break? The reps have done the benchmarking but say it's too sensitive to be posted on the forum. Why not approach them personally, they may be happy to divulge the information. You are suggesting we don't trust the reps, who have been talking about collecting benchmarking information for years, simply because they don't publish it. On the other hand we are expected to trust you that other airlines earn more than us simply on a hunch. Who lacks credibility here?

The basis for this rumour is a BA manager, and yes, he might be lying and stirring it up, then maybe perhaps not. But it's strange how several BA managers have now said this, and around the same time, Balpa start talking about how costly we are.

I've read the BALPA forum thread on this, so I know who the manager is and I'll have a pretty good guess at who you are. For your benefit I will explain some truths about BA. Firstly, everyone joins full of bravado and militancy and belief in what a union can achieve. Eventually you work out that the reality is somewhat different as the strength of the union is the resolve of it's members, so the quicker you accept that reality the better. Secondly, the manager in question is not going to be a manager for very long, and people who know his history remain mystified how he has remained in the middle echelons for so long. He is not party to the sort of information that could substantiate such comments. Thirdly, only 2 managers in Flight Ops are party to any information pertaining to company strategy, and they are not usually seen at SEP. Wanna know why the busses are rubbish? You may get an answer to that at SEP. Wanna know pension, pay or crewing information? Forget it. All you'll get is idle speculation. I have seen rumour and speculation flatly denied by management at SEP only to see it confirmed the following week when the big boys have got their heads together. The big boys don't go to SEP. A bit of cynicism will do you a lot of good in BA, but you must be cynical of the right people.

Even if what you say is true,I doubt very much the members will strike if balloted. It will not be an issue balpa will war over with the company and even if they wanted to,will not have the backing of the majority of it's members.

You reckon? The only significant expansion we're likely to see for years taking by direct entry Captains? A challenge to the whole concept of seniority within BA? A direct competitor to Fortress Heathrow and the long haul crews? makes you wonder what they would strike over.

I believe BA have decided how they will crew the operation but do not go along with your assertion that balpa have agreed or indeed know. I think you will find that when the time comes they will decide what happens and have no need to negotiate with balpa. To negotiate would imply that balpa have some influence on key financial decisions the company makes

Aaaah, you must be management! BA always believe that they can make their decisions in isolation without the need to take the employees with them. They are invariably wrong as history shows.

[Angryfool]

Why not approach them personally, they may be happy to divulge the information.

They have been approached by several people directly, and asked to provide the information. No answers to the question though. Perhaps they're really busy :rolleyes:

On the other hand we are expected to trust you that other airlines earn more than us simply on a hunch. Who lacks credibility here?

Carnage, as I have not posted my information, fair enough you do not have to trust me, based simply on what you believe to be a hunch. Perhaps if you read the Balpa forum you will find that there are other people who have already posted, with information on 1 EU airline which has a better package. It's really strange but no one has refuted this information:eek:

I've read the BALPA forum thread on this, so I know who the manager is and I'll have a pretty good guess at who you are.


I'm sure there are more than a few flight ops managers within BA, unfortunately it's not the same one otherwise I would have taken his comments with a pinch of salt; and whoever you may think I am is irrelevant, anyway I can assure you i'm not him:suspect:
Unless you have more than one suspect, in which case :O

The big boys don't go to SEP

That's very strange, because i'm sure i've seen LCG there before;)


Carnage, you seem to disagree with most of my post, if not all. Let's wait for the work coverage ballot to be sent. This will be the litmus test on numerous issues and let us see your reaction then.

[Rainboe]

Could you explain why you knowingly gave this thread a false title?

[TopBunk]

Rainboe - exactly! As I mentioned earlier, if BA had their way, they would probably not use EU pilots but US pilots.

Starting routes to different EU cities all served from JFK or EWR, why would you choose EU pilots with multi base inefficiencies? Choosing JFK/EWR based pilots would be much more robust, and it is only a question of providing hotac in BRU/CDG/FRA vs NYC!

BALPA's task is to try to find a way of retaining these jobs for BA pilots operating rotations ex LHR.

[Angryfool]

Rainboe

I've corrected the title based on the premise that this is a 'rumour' and not 'fact'

[Rainboe]

I think with the whole thing simmering away (and definitely NOT on the back burner!), the title alone is like tossing a brick into the cooking pot. I think it creates more problems than it solves!
Rather than having a public row here (and you'll probably find half the respondents are simmers/airliners.net hobbyists pretending to be pilots, or just those hordes of bitter wannebees who like getting involved in this sort of thing), it may well be better to leave it to BALPA to negotiate quietly. It has happened before where the reps do not want public comment whilst an agreement is thrashed out. It takes faith, but it's a reasonable supposition that the reps know the dangers involved and the wants and concerns of the members. I have a strong suspicion that the effect of publicity like this could actually be adverse whilst negotiations are taking place. We fully support this work (of European companies) going to 'our' people, just as US companies can employ their own nationals on the same thing as in Maxjet, Eon etc. The reps don't need this sort of pressure- they know.

[Barry McDougal]

Carnage Matey!
If you think that the company will accomodate balpa on a major decision like this if they conclude it is financially prudent to use non-mainline pilots then you will be in for a bit of a suprise.

TopBunk
i'm with you on the US based pilots rather than EU

[filejw]

Top Bunk. There is nothing to prevent BA from having a pilot base in the US at JFK or anywhere else for that matter.Other international airlines do this already.Most pilots on this side of the pond believe if it's XYZ airlines painted on the A/C XYZ airlines pilots should fly the A/C.:)

[Carnage Matey!]

If you think that the company will accomodate balpa on a major decision like this if they conclude it is financially prudent to use non-mainline pilots then you will be in for a bit of a suprise.
Barry - it was financially prudent to slash NAPS, impose a career average final salary pension scheme (as supported by numerous staff groups) and ride roughshod over BALPAs objections. The savings BA could have made through that are a couple of orders of magnitude greater than any profits they could make from a US-EU operation, yet strangely enough they thought it important to keep the pilots onboard. I wonder why.

Incidentally are you actually a BA pilot Barry or just a spotter?

[747-436]

What is to stop BA operating this EU - US airline as a franchise, so someone else runs it and picks up the costs and BA put their colours on the aircraft?

[Hotel Mode]

Well I would have thought BA wants the money. Franchises have traditionaly been on marginal routes which mainline wouldnt serve. I suspect these routes will be anything but marginal.

I think the problems of a JFK base are understated. Either they need a US AOC to fly N reg a/c which means max 25% UK owned. Or they need to base crews flying EU reg aircraft which would require green cards all round or US pilots with EU licences. Either way its a tough call to sort that out for may.

[Barry McDougal]

carnage,
Without highlighting a separate issue the lump sum the company will put into the pensions is based on what they can afford to and are happy to. The agreement reached between balpa and the company was based on a lot of negotiations and research as well. It's a fine balance from both sides, the stakes high, if an agreement was not made/recommended by balpa then a high probability of a strike.
The issues we are talking about are very different. The stakes for pilots are not anywhere near the same as issues concerning pensions. This is not just about savings the company can make from non mainline pilots. It's far deeper:oh:

[Carnage Matey!]

I think you'll find the view on the line is that the stakes on this issue are almost as high as for the pensions issue. This is a wholesale outsourcing of BA flying to a different pilot body, a body which could just as easily be flying work out of LHR a week after it's set up. This isn't covered by the existing scope agreement but I've yet to meet anyone who didn't see this as the thin end of a very fat wedge that BA would try to use hammer down our terms, conditions and career opportunities. I know BALPA see it as such soon, and if BA management are thinking, like you, that this is a storm in a teacup and the pilots aren't really that bothered then they have an unpleasant surprise coming their way. They want this airline running by May, they want T5 open in March and they still have round 2 of the pilots pay negotiations in February 08. If they want a fight then there's plenty of support around for one.

[Barry McDougal]

Carnage,
Outsourcing of BA flying to a different body. Have you not ever looked at what's happened in the past,it tends to give us a good reality check of what perhaps may and/or will happen in the future. BA routes flown by BMED:eek: What happened there and guess what,I hear lots and lots of moans on line about that. That is it though,they are just moans.
I didn't say pilots were not bothered at all,they are. I'm saying BA pilots to strike over something that has already happened in the past (BA routes flown by non-mainline crew) will not happen.

[Angryfool]

Oh dear

Apparently according to Balpa we are not the best paid anymore:(
Yes, it's true, only the 3rd best in terms of cash but we're top in relation to overall package:confused: Honest it's true

Ah dear, the spin the spin. I believe 1997 was a significant year.

[Hand Solo]

I'd rather be 3rd overall in cash but have the best overall package. No point earning a load of cash if it goes straight into paying for a private pension or healthcare. Money isn't everything, otherwise people wouldn't be so hacked off with force draft. "Another weekend away from the family? Why thank you for this opportunity to earn more cash!"

[Angryfool]

I'd rather be 3rd overall in cash but have the best overall package. No point earning a load of cash if it goes straight into paying for a private pension or healthcare. Money isn't everything

Agree with you, money isn't the most important.

I'm very suprised:eek: to now know from my own union that the information they provided first hand, that we were the best paid, is actually very misleading, some people would actually say a lie. It could however be that their research was not as thorough as they had imagined and they were corrected by a few individuals who know people that work for other EU based airlines;)

I don't really care whether we are 1st or 5th. Job satisfaction, quality of life and feeling valued are top of my list. What I do care about is being lied to or mislead. It doesn't matter if it's from my company or union.

[Dreamshiner]

Is there anyone who can provide a link to the full story behind this thread with respect to the hiring of pilots, I've tried to gleen a little from this but I'd like to get the full picture. Did a google search too and read up on their plans but nothing with respect to the crewing.

[Barry McDougal]

Dreamshiner,
The crewing issue is not public yet as nothing to date has been confirmed. More than likely BA will commence flights to the US via the EU,plans are being put into place. I believe that once these bases have been announced/confirmed then crewing issues will be dealt with.

Some details;

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2283019.ece

[Dreamshiner]

Many thanks Barry,

Sorry for my ignorance, its been a little while since I've been around the Cranebank coffee room rumour mill.

So just to clear things up for non-BA types such as myself, the concise story is this, please anyone correct my misunderstandings, conjecture and blatant lies:

BA to fly from CDG, BRU and MAD maybe with a cheeky FCO thrown in too (why not).

Crewing - Well could get current staff to move abroad or employ new guys, options as I see it are:
Yanks - AOC and N reg issues, saying that how many do TCX and TUI employ every year as contractors, plenty of guys dual FAA/JAA qualified
Johnny Foreigner - Multitude of issues however BA already employ groundstaff in every airport mentioned, is it hard to add 14 pilots (guess) per base?
UK based, existing BA - 'hey fancy a move somewhere sunny?'
UK based, non BA but want to work for BA (kinda/possibly/definitely)

Will there be a recruitment drive? If so, whats likely? 700 hrs min on type required, therefore major UK charter operators loose a lot of staff which in turn is filled by recently qualified CTC/ab initio/SSTR guys
Will existing BA numbers be able to manage if they entice crew abroad?

I suggest many a BA captain/f.o. has a nice barn conversion outside Paris/Madrid/Barcelona/Milan/Provence and may jump at the chance to avoid the commute to LHR.

Current BA Pilots - Not happy if management opt for non BA mainline crew, why?

May ultimately cost mainline jobs via UK hubs if foreign services go well and non mainline crew employed for satellite cities.

Backdoor to employ others on less T&C's than present crew, therefore eroding things from the bottom up.

(don't know the setup was with BMED, but LoganAir fly with BA livery and get **** pay and don't see a whole lot of strike threats from mainline in support, or is it only juicy 7.5 hour Shanwick-Gander routes with a juicy layover that cause this uproar)

Union - Recognised unhappiness, in meetings with lots of cucumber sandwiches, much waggy fingers at management

Fleet - Will they need to acquire new 75/76's or with the current lot do?

Structure - Do something similar as with Go, except ditch the circles and keep the union jack or possible psuedo-BMED arrangement?

[Hand Solo]

Some clarifications for you dreamshiner:

Johnny Foreigner - Multitude of issues however BA already employ groundstaff in every airport mentioned, is it hard to add 14 pilots (guess) per base?

BA don't employ groundstaff at any of these airports other than some rare engineering support. Most European staff have been laid off or transferred to a handling company. To run a single daily 757 service to JFK you need a base of approximately 40 pilots.

(don't know the setup was with BMED, but LoganAir fly with BA livery and get **** pay and don't see a whole lot of strike threats from mainline in support, or is it only juicy 7.5 hour Shanwick-Gander routes with a juicy layover that cause this uproar)

BMED operated some BA routes and some of their own on routes that were considered so thin BA couldn't make a profit and using a custom fit of seats that was unique to BMed. They did this using BMed slots at LHR. BA used the slots that had been used for these destinations for more profitable routes. The EU-US routes BA see as a sure fire money winner so the franchise logic does not apply, especially as the route is to our most profitable destination.

As for your LoganAir comment, tell me, what business is it of BA pilots to strike on behalf of LoganAir pilots or any other airlines pilots? Apart from the fact it would be illegal it's LoganAirs pilots responsibility to fight for their rights and nobody elses. And juicy layovers? Perhaps you can tell me whats so 'juicy' about 16 hours in New York? Thats worth about £32 to me, I can eat that much food in that time without too much difficulty.

[Barry McDougal]

Dreamshiner,
Ba pilots will not be happy for non mainline crew because of;
-it's their job and a future command
-the operation is expanding without mainline pilots thus 'diluting' the ba pilot workforce, potentially weakening their position
-a two teir system may develop, new ba mainline flights & ba a/c with mainline and non-mainline crew. This can have an effect on pay deals & T&C

An analogy - It's a bit like Naps and BARP (money purchase). Within x years, the majority of pilots in BA will be on BARP. The company will withdraw NAPS for all members. All future pensions will be BARP. There will be lots of noise from the minority of NAPS pilots, but no strike. History repeats itself in different ways, and some are not able to see beyond their own hand - just the way management would like:ok:

[Hand Solo]

Have you ever had the term 'prophet of doom' applied to you Barry? Remind me how much it would cost BA to close NAPS to existing members please. By the way are you in BARPS? Just wanted to see what angle you were coming from on that particular comment.

[Barry McDougal]

Hand Solo,
I am in naps and grateful for it. 'prophet of doom' or a realist? It would cost BA a lot of money to close naps now, but who said now? I'm talking about perhaps 5-10 years in the future. From a business sense,if any company can,will it stay in a FSS pension? There are a few, but that is because their business ethos and culture is completely different to BA's.

People need to think for themselves, outside the box and try and understand what they want as employees but also what their employers want to gain +/- from them. All too often in a lot of industries there is a one dimensional thought process applied (not aimed at you Hand Solo) by management and general employees, as a result a lot of mis-perception and mis-communication arises. Could you please answer me this question; If you are an employer with a FSS, would you want it ultimately replaced with a money purchase scheme?

[No longer ATC]

We hear (from an excellent source) that BA are approaching recently retired BA 757 guys to start this operation...CDG and BRU to JFK...

[No longer ATC]

See www.projectlauren.co.uk for furthur details...

[Propellerhead]

projectlauren? Is this a wind up?
Doesn't exactly look like a genuine site to me!
If so, not funny. This is people's lives / careers we're talking about here.

[easyprison]

RE projectlauren

It doesn't take much to work out its BA does it!

1) "a major European flag carrier "

2) .co.uk address

http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=10315

[Fright Level]

Domain name:
projectlauren.co.uk

Registrant:
TMP (UK) Limited

Registrant type:
UK Limited Company, (Company number: 5648039)

Registrant's address:
Advertising & Communications
TMP (UK) Limited
Chancery House
53-64 Chancery Lane
London
WC2A 1QS
GB

Registrar:
TMP (UK) Limited [Tag = TMP]
URL: http://www.tmpw.co.uk

Relevant dates:
Registered on: 04-Oct-2007
Renewal date: 04-Oct-2009

Registration status:
Registration request being processed.

Name servers:
ns0.ukfast.net
ns1.ukfast.net

[MuttleyJ]

I'm afraid it's not a wind up, and it's definitely BA.... a BA manager confirmed it today, and said they're looking at CDG-JFK as the first route.

[No longer ATC]

Absolutely 100% BA..next acft to arrive Nov 08 and bases of Milan and (I think) Frankfurt shortly after..don't quote me on the FRA, it was somewhere in Germany but I'd had a couple of glasses of vino....still no mention of the official name of the outfit though.....

[Angryfool]

The advert is out, people applying. Interesting that they are looking for TRE/TRI as well!

As I stated at the start of the thread, this was decided and agreed a few months ago. Please be under no illusion that BALPA and BA are negotiating over this now, BA have already decided. BALPA members will be told after a while that BALPA did their best but to no avail:{ Then we'll have the, but mainline pilots are too expensive, not from the company, from our union, who have already hinted as much by saying don't you know that the top BA captain get's paid £xxx,xxx (of course they forgot to mention that this was a longhaul trainer who did loads of overtime etc, etc).

[Hand Solo]

Must be fun living in your little conspiracy world. So are BA negotiating, or a have they decided? They can't be doing both. What if BALPA undercut BAs forecast cost base? You certainly live up to your username here! Some of us are getting rather tired of your selective and frequently innaccurate quotes from BALPA. BALPA have said nothing, zip, nyada about the negotiations and thats for a very good reason. If they started responding to angry demands from information from people who think they have a right to know it then regardless of the damage it would caue we really would be in trouble.

[hunterboy]

Hand Solo Let's hope BALPA don't negotiate another GSS type deal then. Problem with BA is that they think of a number, halve it and then decide that is the going rate. It's up to us AND BALPA to protect BA pilot jobs and improve opportunities. Let's remember that BA pilots are already benchmarked. The problem with BA's costbase are the other groups of staff we know that are grossly overpaid for their jobs. A quick look at other threads shows CSD's and Pursers taking home 3000 -3500 a month.
Are they to be included in BA's new cost structure?

[peterowensfanclub]

May I introduce some of you BA types to the real world.
There are alot of well qualified 7576 (including retirees..ahem) types out there in the uk currently and their world is in flux. They will be applying. You wont strike.

You moan about BALPA being toothless however they have to defend a bunch of self centred primma donnas who havent quite caught up with the plot.
EG.
Pilots commuting fom australia now moaning because they cant bid 50/75 percent and their little earner is over.. Absolutlely ridiculous. If the management had balls they would just wait observe their self induced fatigue and can them. Can you believe it.Get a job with Qantas.

The sby Pilot moaning that the blocks are too long and the LHR car park too far away from his midlands house so can it all be changed. Poor thing apparantly sits in his uniform from the start of the sby.

The list is endless. lets allow the public on the forums and let them see what a buch of idiots we (now you) are.Against a background of puerile compalints like this you expect BALPA to have any credibility at all. Its the members fault. Self opinionated whinging Nigels. Demands to represent this sort of chaff neuters Balpas effectiveness and credibility.

Any way back to the point. Youve got a nice cake from which you are all feeding happily . Another cake is being baked. Guess what you wont get both. Go on strike if you will. Thats what walsh wants. You will get very little sympathy from the industry or the public because you are out of touch with the real world. Be happy with your current industry leading package and stop being so fecking selfish, arrogant and basically pains in the ass.:ok:

OH and good use of selective support for logan air. Dont you want to crew the otter as well.:8

[peterowensfanclub]

BOTH. :}.......................And your pointless arrogant dig at my spelling empahsises the arrogance here.I note that you are ex mil now BA. Well that about sums it up. My dyslexia hasnt hindered me thus far. Got My pension old boy , just thought you might need to see what its like in the real world.My dear Biggles you really have no clue how these BA issue are viewed outside if you think I have no grasp of the subject matter.:zzz:. I suggest you count your chickens and go and help get Pablo a job.

[Propellerhead]

You really are bitter! You're not management are you?
What an idiot. Welcome to my ignore list.

[wee one]

I do believe you are being wound up old bean:}

[747-436]

If this is to be run as a seperate airline outside of the UK is there anything BALPA could do about it?

[Shaka Zulu]

Yes its called the SCOPE agreement.
However it doesnt cover USA basing (since it was never required)

[wiggy]

I too feel that the work should be done by Mainline Flight Crew but reading through "Scope" (as I understand it's Schedule K of the MOA) I can't find any mention of BA Mainline being entitled to operate Europe - US. ...This is a tough one for the Reps, I wish them luck.

[Shaka Zulu]

@ Wiggy

I was always under the impression that this sort of flying was covered under SCOPE if it was flown under the BA brand or with BA mainline operated aircraft.
I might be wrong. Granted its going to be a tough one. But there is soooo much potential for the beginning of the end and not just for BA pilots but for overall T&C's in the whole industry.
So please guys that keep on sniping, back off. We need support not backstabbing.

[wiggy]

Hi Shaka

As far as I can see Schedule K only mentions aircraft purchased or leased by BA and operating in or out of LHR and LGW as being operated by Mainline Crews....various get outs involving BACX and the RJ, but nothing about Europe - US services....Interesting times ahead.

[Angryfool]

Hand Solo

So are BA negotiating, or a have they decided? They can't be doing both.

Let me refer you to

Please be under no illusion that BALPA and BA are negotiating over this now, BA have already decided.

I think it's clear enough from that statement.


Another part of your post

Some of us are getting rather tired of your selective and frequently innaccurate quotes from BALPA.

Please inform me as to which part of my posts include inaccurate quotes from BALPA?


BALPA have said nothing, zip, nyada about the negotiations and thats for a very good reason.

I agree, where have I stated otherwise?
All the 'inaccurate' quotes as you say have come from other issues (ie threads started by Reps on the BALPA forum).

Must be fun living in your little conspiracy world.

Well of course Hand Solo, managers always work to help the employees, and union's are there to always help us, there is never any conflict of interest, and there has never been any history to show otherwise;)

So in my little conspiracy world, as you say, when this thread was started, part of the conspiracy was that these flights would not be crewed by mainline pilots. Would you now say that this is still a hoax, like most conspiracy theories?

[900]

What will BALPA do?
If the BA scope is UK bound, then where to go?
One day, some people might like to fly these routes.
So...

[BMEDFO]

All of this could be quite a busy time for the BA BALPA CC, Project Lauren kicking off and possible bmi integration around the corner also!

[justinzider]

Here are the pay scales....

Rank Basic Salary Pension and benefits allowance Total Basic pay
Captain £73,500 £11,025 £84,525
Senior First Officer £44,100 £5,513 £49,613
First Officer £37,800 £3,780 £41,580

In addition we pay sector pay, and you will be entitled to per-diem overnight allowances and positioning allowances. Training Captains are paid additional amounts (total basic pay of £102,064 for base training captains and of £95,851 for line training captains).

There will also be a performance related bonus plan which will pay a bonus as a percentage of basic pay depending on corporate and individual targets.

Other Than Trainers, Are Their Other Opportunities?
We do have other non-flying roles, such as management pilot jobs and selection assessors. Vacancies are advertised from time to time. Appointments are on merit. The terms and conditions applicable to these posts will be advised either in the advertisement or during the selection process. In most cases, if you work additional days you will be paid extra, and if you fly less, you will be compensated for loss of sector pay etc.

What is the Difference Between SFOs and FOs?
An SFO must have at least 500 hrs on type and an unrestricted ATPL (A). Promotion from FO to SFO is normally automatic on gaining the qualification criteria.

Do You Operate a Seniority System?
No. Promotion, appointments, movements between bases, etc are all based on merit, the Company's needs and your desires.

How Do You Select For Command Then?
As a rapidly expanding Airline, we expect excellent opportunities for advancement to command.

Promotion to Captain will be on merit. Periodically, the Company will invite applications from qualified SFOs for a place on a "Command Shortlist". Subject to successfully passing a competitive selection process, applicants will be placed on the shortlist and as command vacancies arise, candidates for command training will be drawn from the Command Shortlist. When a new Command Shortlist is drawn up, those on the previous Command Shortlist will be considered for inclusion on the new list, but will have no right to be included. Inclusion on the list will confer no right to command training.

How Much is the Sector Pay?
Sector Pay is £100/sector for Captains, £65/sector for SFOs, and £50/sector for FOs. You can expect to be rostered between 110 & 120 sectors per year. A sector is a single transatlantic sector from any EU airport to the US or vice versa.

How much are the Allowances?
There is a table of positioning allowances from each Gateway Airport to each of the BA European Operating Airports. They are designed to cover the costs of positioning by land transport.

Overnight (per-diem) allowances are to provide for food and other living costs while you are on duty away from your Gateway Airport. The current rates are $100 per day in the US and €75 in Europe. They will normally be paid in local currency.

The allowances are not subject to tax, as they are to cover your expenses.

[hongkongfuey01]

Justin,

When you mention gateways, does this mean that you could live in say MAN / GLA / STN etc and the first day of your rostered block will positioning to the aircraft? Is it like the Netjets system?

If so, do you know the gateways which will be applic?

[Hand Solo]

Judging by other information in the public domain I think the answer is no. The gateways are the operating bases in Europe. If you live in the UK you'll be positioning yourself to the gateway at your own expense. If your gateway is, for example, CDG and you are required to operate from FRA you'll receive an allowance for transport from CDG to FRA, but nothing to get you from the UK to CDG or FRA.

[contact-landing]

Why is this subject suddenly "death-quiet" for a week now ? :confused:
Anybody been invited for interview yet ? And if yes details pls. thanks.

[Walnut]

One of the problems as I understand it is that the BA Board has yet to sign off on the deal, There are a number of problems, one of which is slots into JFK, I believe EWR is being looked at seriously.

[3Greens]

JFK is not a slot limited airport. Sure it gets busy at peak times, but a slot problem a-la LHR doesn't exist.

[Hotel Mode]

It isnt yet but it will be. And it should have been ages ago.

FAA will attempt to cap flights at New York Kennedy Airport to 81 an hour during afternoon peak times, which appears to mean airlines will have to make significant cuts to existing schedules.

The agency released its targets Friday afternoon, and will use them during an airline scheduling conference planned for Oct. 23-24. During closed-door sessions, airlines will be asked to volunteer flight cuts to meet the flight limits.

FAA said it is looking to limit JFK operations to 80 flights an hour between 6a.m. and 10p.m., and 81 flights an hour between 3p.m. and 8p.m. Additionally, targets were set for 30 and 15 minute blocks -- 44 and 24 operations, respectively. Neither the arrival total nor departure total can exceed 53 an hour, to balance runway operations.

As an example of current levels, on the evening of Oct. 18 there were two hour-long periods -- 5p.m.-6p.m. and 8p.m.-9p.m. -- where there were about 90 operations, according to FAA data.


The BACC are having a standing conference with BA (1 meeting before Ballot) on nov 26th over Lauren. The BA board will decide whether to go ahead at the December board meeting.

[Tandemrotor]

Question:

Is anybody still taking this Mickey Mouse outfit seriously?

From the scheduling, and immediate cancelling of interviews, the impression many are getting is that you'd have to be pretty desperate to chuck your lot in with this bunch of clowns!

[Bengerman]

Angryfool, you have chosen yourself a most appropriate handle if you believe anything a BA manager tells you!!

Peterowensfanclub, do you breakfast on absinthe?

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Can anybody tell us the official BALPA point of view regarding this?

And the BA pilots....

Do not want to end up in the middle of a 49er dispute....

[Hotel Mode]

The Balpa position is essentially that all Project Lauren pilots should be on the BA seniority list on seperate terms and conditions if necessary.

[FlyingTom]

Re official BALPA view:

There is a scope agreement that is designed to provide job security for BA pilots out of London, no 100+ seat planes will fly those routes. That was pre Open Skies. BALPA want to renegotiate this agreement post Open Skies as there is now a bigger ball park and BA flights out of other European cities will affect jobs out of London by reducing feed and premium passengers. To reach the current scope agreement there was give and take on both sides, it has been changed many times over the years to reflect changing conditions, it is called schedule K. BA are being evasive re BALPA's request. As a result both parties are at standing conference which is the last step before a ballot for industrial action.

There are parallels elsewhere, Qantas/Jetstar, Iberia/Clickair, JAL/JALways, Britannia/ThomsonFly. In all but the last wages are reducing, time to command increasing and agreements stretching.

There is no amnosity towards anyone applying to Lauren, I just hope you affiliate to a union like BALPA/ECA otherwise your conditions will go down with time. Remember Balpa is the British Airline Pilots Association, Lauren will have a British AOC.

The BA boss in charge of Lauren is an experienced cost cutter, his previous job was sacking all but a few overseas ground staff. He has not been chosen for his track record in developing new business opportunities. Lots of people question the business viability of Lauren and I suspect ulterior motives.

"Editted as I could't spell Qantas"

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

In all honesty, that does not sound too good.

The Terms and conditions so far are OK, the whole set up is very appealing in terms of rosters and flights.

But still lots of questions remain unanswered untill now and if I am not mistaken, there is not even a word about seniority lists as in Lauren everything is based on Merrit as they say.

Not all of us have access in our current jobs to BALPA or ECA, so maybe the guys who do can keep us posted through Pprune?

[Human Factor]

My bet is that at best, you will end up on the BA mainline seniority list on the advertised Lauren T&Cs, the flipside being that all BA pilots will have the opportunity to bid for Lauren seats.

At worst, there will be no Lauren and big BA will have got a good hiding in the process.:ugh:

All IMHO. ;)

[No longer ATC]

Interviews most definately going ahead....had a friend stay with us last week while he had interview at LHR

[northern boy]

Still no contact about rescheduling of cancelled interview despite sending email and phone messages.

If some have actually had scheduled I/V as it appears from postings then I am inclined to think that there has been a changing of minds somewhere.

Rather a sorry state of affairs, always though better of BA than this. A bit of common courtesy would be in order. Shame really, would have been nice to get in at the start of something new.

Best of luck to those who make it through. hope it all works out. Think I'll be staying put. :ugh:

[stansdead]

Northern Boy,

I told them to cram it by email three days ago. Told them I thought their behaviour was shoddy and high handed.

Seems like this will be no better than where you and I both work anyway.

[CanAV8R]

For any of you FO's out there why would you want to work for this outfit? BA mainline will be hiring 200+ (number being talked about) pilots next training year so apply to mainline and further your options!


:ok::ok:

[Pimp My Ride]

No Longer ATC

Just wondered if you friend who interviewed was rated , I recieved the "you have passed the initial screening letter" and then all went silent.:confused: I'm non rated and wondered if that was the issue. I'm sure like ever other start up things are just crazy in the office right now. Lots of fire fighting. I'm sure our turn will come. Keep the faith and safe flying. PMR.:)

[citadel]

All gone quiet with PL..... Anyone get any job offers from the recent LHR/BRU interviews?

[TFR]

Nope, in fact not even an acknowledgement or reply to my mini-essays sent on Nov 5..........

[stansdead]

it is dead in the water i think

[sapco2]

My mini essay must have gone down like a lead balloon too because I didn't get a reply either.

[Hogg]

Ha Ha Mine too but then I wasnt too bovvered! Better off to use the feet Gawd gave me than elevate 2 inches off the ground looking 4 my cheeseboard and muttering 280 bawwo......:D:D
Only jokin think they got alot of applications and sure they got to weed out the practical guys!
Neway Im lookin 4ward to my weekend in Leipzig.
Beer soon sapco

[sapco2]

Haha... Perhaps they got wind about you and I being practical jokers then!

Have a great weekend in Leipzig Hogg - fantastic night life with good beer, you'll just love it!

[haltonapp]

A colleague of mine has done the interview and sim assessment, just waiting to hear. He is not UK based!

[Helmut F.]

Will he share some details with us , please?
Thank you !

[hunterboy]

Sounds like it may be starting to be resolved between BA and BALPA re: working groups and standing conferences. Sounds like it is working toward a GSS setup. It would certainly suit a load of pilots looking to get out of the UK but still work for BA.

[hunterboy]

Midnight Cruiser......I don't think BA want "quality FO's".....they have 1500 of them already. They want cheap FO's, hence the external recruitment.

[justinzider]

BALPA's stance is that all Lauren Pilots should join the BA Mainline Seniority List - Therefore Lauren F/O's will have access to the entire BA fleet after a stint in Europe.

That should help retention although this year we have seen a few F/O's depart for other pastures!

[banana head]

although this year we have seen a few F/O's depart for other pastures!
.... and 3 of them have come back :ooh: says a lot about 'greener pastures' if you ask me.....

[3Greens]

And if BA have taken them back it says a lot about the lack of quality applicants available!

[sapco2]

Nah 3 greens, it merely shows the grass isn't always greener! Everyone has a niche in life you know and I think you'll find it's definitely not cool to blow smoke up one's own arse-hole!

Good luck, and I hope all works out well for you and any BA pilot who may want to work from mainland Europe!

[justinzider]

Banana Head,

I never said "greener", you did!!;)

[747-436]

Further information:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3039895.ece

[Captain Douglas]

Hi guys and girls

Re-opening this thread as I have an interview on the horizon. Anyone been to the selection day? interview, group work im led to believe....any info would be greatly received

[Captain Douglas]

Hi guys and girls
Re-opening this thread as I have an interview on the horizon. Anyone been to the selection day? interview, group work im led to believe....any info would be greatly received

[ltn and beyond]

Capt D, I thought all recruitment was on hold at the moment until they sorted out things with balpa and mainline guys :confused:.. when is your day??

[Captain Douglas]

beginning of jan

[Rateofdescent]

Went to the interview in november.
First 30min group exercise, then almost one hour personal interview, similar questions as I found here on PPRuNe in the 'British Airways DEP selection, the lowdown' topic.
Then 30min Q&A where YOU can ask questions.
For me only BRU or AMS an option. Let me know if they still think about BRU as a possible base.

Good luck

[justinzider]

BA may continue the recruitment process. However, they cannot offer a contract until the issue of Lauren pilots joining the mailine seniority list is sorted. (one way or the other.....)

[TopBunk]

....the issue of Lauren pilots joining the mailine seniority list is sorted. (one way or the other.....)

There is only one way it will be sorted:hmm:

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Three times I received a phone call from one of the lady secretaries...

Two times I received a date for an interview....

Two times this date got cancelled the day before!!!

Only once I recivedan email from an actual management pilot, explaining that I had been selected but that me ( and about 10 others in CC) where on hold UFN...

Not very professional I would say, and so far a big dissapointment.

It seems to me the whole idea was not very well thought of.

Lets see what happens next

[Inspector Clueless]

x3 phone calls to attend interview in BRU-unable as I was on a trip.

I called back to advise of this-told to email to express continued interest-did this.No reply.

Group email 2 weeks ago "lots of interest,please bear with us etc etc" from Capt J.

Rejection letter this week.

So-given an interview,cant attend then rejected based on what if I did not go to the interview?

Disorganised and thoroughly unprofessional by Capt J & Co.:mad:

Had expected better from BA.

Good luck to the rest of you-

IC

[Tandemrotor]

Had expected better from BA.

As far as pilotage is concerned, Project Lauren is NOT BA! (Neither is BA European) If it weren't for BALPA, it NEVER would be! (It's ok. No thanks are required!)

If it's BA that you want, I believe they are recruiting. :rolleyes:

[northern boy]

This one is running and running. In the last few weeks have heard;

1: Its all off. BA nixed the whole thing due uncertain economic outlook.

2: No its not. Still recruiting.

3: Some have been offered contract, handed in notice. Then see 1 above. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

4: Someones mate in BA whats on the 75/76 says its all off. (wishful thinking?)

5: Still interviewing.

6: This will be another GSS so you DEP types can all f*** off type scenario.:confused:

7: More interviews and sim planned for new year.:\

I should imagine that if there is any danger that this will end up with the externally recruited pilots being royally screwed by the BA CC, then the type of people they want to get it all up and running will be running backwards at a velocity exceeding mach 1. No doubt the BA cc will attempt to plant this seed of doubt so that it all ends in tears and mainline pilots will be used. That said, are the BA guys really going to strike over this? That may be exactly what the managers want in order to force new contracts on everyone. I know our lot would do exactly that if they had the chance.

As one who quite fancied the look of this I shall follow the progress with interest. Any further info from the hallowed halls of BA would be gratefully received. And no gents, I have no wish to deprive anyone of their rightful command, having been put back until about 10 years after I retire myself due general stagnation. I know exactly how it feels.:ugh: However you cannot blame people for trying to get on.

Just out of interest, whats the time to command at BA mainline these days? would it be worth applying if over 45?


Happy xmas to all

NB

[FlyingTom]

"That said, are the BA guys really going to strike over this?"

We are looking ahead at what's hiding over the horizon.

[FlyingTom]

This from Airliners.net - Jetstar And Consequences To Qantas, thread

"It is no accident that Jetstar are receiving 787s before Qantas. The reason for this is to establish a 787 crew and operations at Jetstar prices. Meaning that if QF staff didn't toe the line, or if for example, the government got in the way, QF could simply get jetstar to operate services on its behalf. Both Jetstar branded, and Qantas branded, full service 2 or 3 class service. So QF gets what it wants either way. "

This is what's over the horizon. Every "expansion" hull on order for mainline would go to BEA. So command time would constantly increase with constant downward T&C pressure. BA makes a healthy profit off the back of squeezing labour. Fuel prices will carry on up, Peak Oil ?

A common seniority list shares common goals. There is no way BA will back down so the ball is firmly in the pilots half.

[northern boy]

They are going to have to sort this issue out sharpish if they expect to start flying in May, given that most people are on 3 months notice. No one is going to chuck in an existing position whilst this is hanging over the whole thing. If it drags on and people do start and are then displaced by mainline F/O's the possibilities for m'learned friends are almost endless.

The old established firm of Sue Grabbitt and Runne herafter known as "the grasping bastards" have formally extended their willinness to take instructions from anyone who feels they have, have had or are yet to have a right royal rogering from Ms BA Lauren or Mr B.Alpa, hereafter known as the "Guilty parties".

This is getting to be better than Dallas.:D

[Super Stall]

I'm sorry it may be all so inconvenient to many people that mainline pilots will not just shut up so that they can join BEA, but we would rather like to protect our and our families future security thank you very much.:*
No mainline FO will be interested in PL, so "newbies and wet behind the ears" have nothing to worry about. I very much doubt any, bar a tiny handfull, of mainline FO's would have any interest in a command ar PL either.
The argument is about ensuring PL pilots JOIN THE MAINLINE SENIORITY LIST, thereby opening up the whole of BA's fleets and ensuring decent T's and C's for all.
Nothing will happen until the New Year as we are in suspended standing conference. (last step before ballot).
We are not stupid. We will not vote for Chrismas (topical eh!). BA has 98% Balpa membership. The ball is most firmly in one half of the court and it's not the Pilots.
Merry Xmas :)

[northern boy]

Superstall,
I entirely take your point about protecting T & C's, I've been there myself, however I must take issue with the idea that no mainline pilots would take commands at this new outfit if they were offered. The precedent is of course the scenario at GSS, which aslo offered inferior T & C's than mainline but quite a few pilots went over so as to gain the LHS. Great for them but not so good for the poor saps who joined from outside and subsequently found that there was no chance for them. I know because quite a few have since joined my outfit.
The same thing also happened at what used to be BACON I understand.
If BA mainline pilots get the chance to obtain command at PL or whatever it is eventually called then good on you, I'd do the same, the argument is not and should not be between pilots, it is however incumbent upon the managers to ensure that this is completely cleared up in a watertight fashion before any offers are made to DEP's.

[Tandemrotor]

northern boy

Interesting post.

As for GSS and BACON, they are fundamentally different to PL. The resolution also needs to be fundamentally different. As far as BA BALPA is concerned, all pilots flying for PL must be on the Master Seniority List.

Period.

(An offer of secondments has already been made by BA. It was declined by balpa.)

This will of course mean that current mainline pilots will be entitled to bid for positions in PL (although the scheduling, and T&Cs are unattractive) It also means that PL pilots will eventually have the right to bid onto mainline fleets should they desire.

What can possibly be bad for pilots about this?

Unfortunately, anyone seeking employment with PL should be aware that there is 'turbulence' forecast in the immediate future! Things could get rather unpleasant.

Wish BA BALPA luck. It is planned to benefit EVERYONE!

[northern boy]

Tandemrotor

I understand what you are saying, but If the PL pilots join the BA seniority list, then they will be both at the bottom of a very long list for command and also on inferior terms. Whats the point of that? might as well join BA mainline and start off in the same position but on better money and conditions in the first place. In that case, PL may as well be staffed from mainline from the get go and save all the hassle of a separate selection process. The only reason that someone like myself would join PL is the premise that it is a new and totally separate airline which would offer the chance to get on a bit quicker than is available at present. Any connection with BA would be incidental and well above my pay grade.

If I wanted to join BA mainline then I would fill in the application for BA mainline and accept the fact that I would be an FO for however long it takes. At my age, that would probably be a waste of time. PL obviously want experienced bods to get the whole thing up and running. They have plenty of those in mainline so why bother recruiting from outside unless it is just a stick to beat the mainline pilots with? Most people in my situation are well aware of this and would not touch it unless this issue was totally settled and the outfit was to be separated from the BA mainline operation as originally advertised. I'm in BALPA too and have no wish to shaft anyone.

The PL airline would eventually have its own CC which would negotiate for the T/C's of pilots employed by PL and presumably its own AOC in the fullness of time. If BA are setting it up then the BA AOC would presumably be needed for things like ETOPS in the first couple of years.

Tricky one isn't it?

[Tandemrotor]

nb

There are entrenched positions here, and it appears that gambling is the order of the day.

For anyone handing in their notice to accept positions in PL. Best of luck!

[mountainrider]

As you say, you are very well paid and get lots of time off. Work for someone else? wake up and smell the roses, you live in a highly privileged world. There is no one else you could work for who would give you anything like the same deal. True?

[Tandemrotor]

I guess we'd just like to share it around!

[Dick Deadeye]

I guess we'd just like to share it around!

Tandemrotor, ROFL! :D

By the way mountainrider (hmmmm, just joined, first post :rolleyes:), care to tell us exactly which BA manager you are? Because only one of BA's finest could come out with a statement like yours. Sorry you didn't get Lloyd's job, keep applying!

To all those of you thinking about applying to PL, heed Tandemrotor's words.

Apply by all means, but if accepted, think long and hard before giving in your notice at your current job. You wouldn't want to be caught up in the middle of a BA v BALPA battle if you don't have to be.

BALPA are only one step away from a strike ballot, with the standing conference being delayed at BA's request. BALPA will not back down on this issue, and it may well be tears before bedtime soon!

BAA, VS, and now, possibly, BA, on strike in the New Year! Good time to dig out those train timetables!

Merry Xmas!!

[northern boy]

Tandemrotor, Dick Deadeye et al;

Thanks for the insights gents. It is a difficult situation and as you said no one wants to start a new position and then end up in the middle of a punch up. Personally I've got too much to loose.

Could one of you BA guys advise me what the situation would be for someone joining the mainline seniority list at present, especially for one in their late forties? I'm sure the answer is elsewhere on prune but I can't be arsed trawling through the entire site, (sorry Danny!)

Just trying to get a feel for what would be the best course of action.:ok:

Merry Xmas to all.

[rebellion]

Any non-BA pilot would be mad to take up a contract with project lauren.

But any NON BA pilot should take note, especially in those in easyJet who are fat dumb and happy on UK contracts while the company issues european contracts with lesser terms.

Well done BA pilots, you stick together and fight for your rights. This is what people are really jealous of, not the fact you work for BA, but your a strong united work force. This simply doesn't exist outside BA.

Good Luck..........

[FlyingTom]

Brokenbackmountainrider, I would say that you are not for the emancipation of the common worker. :ugh:

[The Little Prince]

I've had multiple debates with Tandem, Carnage and others about scenarios like this. In my case it was the take-over of BRAL and the merging of BRAL/Brymon/Manx etc.
With hindsight, I think we are all fundamentally driven by what is best for us - no surprises there. Hence we don't like being argued with when others take a similar view from their own perspective. BA are extremely fortunate in having a strong CC, and also, actually, very accurate in distrusting all proposals from management. In this particular case, it may seem, to some, that a BACC attempting to dictate terms regarding recruitment and seniority for an separate airline, separate AOC which is nothing to do with BA pilots at all, and just happens to be wholly owned by their employer, is really going a bit too far. To juxtapose the BACON thing, the BACC refused to allow the BACON pilots onto the master seniority list. This was a wholly owned separate airline, separate AOC to BA - just like PL, except that BACC have now neatly reversed their position 180 degrees.

At first glance, this seems like union dinosaurs wanting to dictate everything to their employer, regardless of ethics, morals or whatever; and in some ways, I wonder if a strike as alluded to would actually be legal - almost akin to secondary picketing in some ways.

However, and it's a huge however, having been unfortunate enough to have worked for BA management, I entirely understand why BACC are behaving as they do, and I completely sympathise with, empathise with, and support everything Tandem has said. If you understand the way BA Management work, then you realise you can tell when they are lying - their lips move! Any follower of the long drawn out and painful story of BACON from the moment of its purchase to its premature demise (WW breaking his word) lets you see that PL is another strategic attempt to reduce BA Ts and Cs, and make more profit for shareholders and more bonuses for management at all levels. There is next to nothing else to cut or make more efficient, and so very predictably here we go with a long haul BACON Mk 2, only this time on a much grander scale.
Any doubters still reading at this stage need only look at what happened to the BA pension - I still think BACC lost that one, although perhaps it was unwinnable.
Those of you with EZY would do well to heed this, the Eastern Europeans are coming, from their point of view a 50% UK salary is a 3 fold payrise - bit of a no-brainer from their perspective don't you think? The next thing will be the EASA AOC, and after that - well, the bottom of the well is the limit! That's what happens when, to mix my metaphors, you allow the thin end of the wedge under the door.
BA have always been envied, and sometimes disliked for many silly reasons, but they DO stick together, and they CAN see an attempt to put the writing on the wall. The BA Ts and Cs used to be the gold standard of UK professional piloting, I don't think that's the case any more but it's still true to say that any erosion of their Ts and Cs wil hurt us all.

Good luck boys! (I don't think it'll be easy though!).

Noli Illigitimi Carborundum.

[Tandemrotor]

northern boy

I'm not really well up on these things, but I'll have a stab at what you could expect.

Join on whatever fleet BA offer. If you have a jet rating, your first type could well be 777. A320 if you prefer shorthaul. After an initial freeze of 4-5 years you have a free bid to the type of your choice, or stay where you are without a freeze.

Your earliest command opportunity is highly likely to be A320 at LGW.

It's anyone's guess how long this could take, but I imagine 7 years or so might be possible. Expect a little longer for an A320 command at LHR.

SH out of LHR is not particularly pleasant. Particularly if you are junior on the fleet, and have a family, or enjoy your weekends.

So if you join at 47-48, you could well see a command by 55, at which time you could work for another 10 years if it suited you.

HTH

[northern boy]

Tandemrotor

Thank you, thats made things a lot clearer. Think I'll slog through the BA online form and see what happens.

Have a good Xmas.:hmm:

[justinzider]

Northern Boy,

Or from a slightly different angle:-

Join PL with Direct Entry Command (but hopefully on BA Mainline Seniority List) and LGW SH Command may come after 7-8 years. Or bid to RHS of B777 /787 /B747 /A380 (A350?) after 4-5 years. Or stay LHS at PL base and wait for SH LHR command. Or just stay LHS PL as long as you like.

Good luck with the applications.:)

[Preppy]

PL may be running into problems, according to a report in the Times:
Project Lauren, as BA’s proposed service is called internally, was to be a business-only service linking cities in Europe with the United States. BA now admits that the structure has changed and that Project Lauren will include economy-class passengers. However, aviation sources say that Project Lauren has run into problems.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3095405.ece

[Big Kahuna Burger]

It was never going to be all business class.

It was always going to have an economy section of some form. I think that it has been announced that it will be mostly mostly club, with some economy plus.

[Tandemrotor]

Not long now before the big announcement!

[Heffer]

Does anybody know when exactly there will be an announcement?

[TopBunk]

IIRC it will be about 10th January.

[overstress]

BA mainline needs 150 pilots/year for the next 4-5 years (possibly more to start with). This is due to BA's expansion/LH orders etc. This info is direct from BA mgt, btw.
Time to command at LGW could therefore be as little as 4-5 years, based on current figures.
BALPA's position is that we want all PL pilots on the master list - then no-one loses out and T's & C's are protected.

[FlyingTom]

The converse of this, if PL takes all the expansion orders and reduces SH connections due to JFK-European airports; command time will go to 12? years SH (A319 at LGW) and 22? years LH.

[overstress]

Not if we are all on the same list....

[Tandemrotor]

Is it just me, or is anyone else having difficulty accessing the balpa website?

I just want to know when we are going on strike!

Edited to add: Just checked my emails. Expecting my ballot papers mid Jan!

About time!

[Human Factor]

It's been down all evening for me. Standing conference (again!!) on the 14th. Depending on the outcome, strike ballot to follow fairly shortly afterwards. Lets hope for plenty of support for the BACC.:ok:

[idol detent]

Got the txt msg from balpa, but been unable to get on to the website for info.

What's the latest?

Thanks

ID

[Human Factor]

As per the previous post. Last chance saloon for BA on the 14th.:hmm:

[idol detent]

So, certain directors (little 'd' :eek:) have staked their reputations on PL operating without 'us'. Their egos will not allow them to back down and see sense. Even though it will be built upon by the fruits of our labours, cross-subsidised by our labours, and, may indeed poach those very labours from under our noses. Hmmm...

It doesn't really matter what Scope says, or indeed, intends to say. If the future pilots of PL are not on the master seniority list then those directors are in for a bit of a shock. Just in time for the run up to Easter/T5....

Does anyone else in this outfit feel that it is being run like an eighteenth century mill of the worst sort?
Does WW bluff? Does he blink? Is he The Stig? Do we care...?

Well, he certainly blinked this time last year: with the days' revenue down the pan, instead of taking the CC on, he chose instead to 'operate' a near-normal program, except that the a/c were mostly empty, thus avoiding the stigma associated with IA and avoiding the wrath of the media & Joe Public. Blink he most certainly did!

Our potential spat will make last year look like childs play. There will be no-one around to get his a/c in position, or fly anything like a 'normal' program.

The BACC will get my full support should the breathtakingly arrogant LT fail to come to its senses.

[Hand Solo]

The LT don't really seem to learn any lessons. Those versed in the demise of the BA Regional operation may well recognise the modus operandi here. First set up the 'low cost' subsidiary, then transfer mainline work to it, then hand over the whole operation. Personally I don't care much for a PL job but I recognise a scheme to shaft BA mainline pilots when I see one. The only way PL can go ahead is to have all pilots on the BA master seniority list so that we are all pulling as one. Terms and conditions we can discuss, but a seperate operation will not be tolerated. I don't want to strike over this issue, but if they push it then by goodness I will!

[Shaka Zulu]

I completely agree. What is it with this Management?? Mistake piles upon mistake and no one seems accountable or at least sees reason that the way they are doing business might save money short term but will loose money long term all to get them to trigger the bonus schemes.
All this talk about setting up good relations with the Flight Crew Community spouted from every Managers mouth in sight. Just read all the bloody newsletters!
And then try and shaft us via the backdoor. I hope they know whats coming for them.
If there every was any threat then this is it!
Luckily BALPA is seeing it for the potential beast it is.

We are not inconsiderate and will try and help the BA brand along but if its a BA owned, BA funded with BA managers and BA aircraft then the pilots should be on the BA Master Seniority List. Full Stop.

Got some emergency funds ready...
even some big barrel drums!

[Re-Heat]

If that were the issue (BA aircraft, managers, capital = BA crew), you would be fighting to get Cityflyer crew on the master seniority list as well; I do not hear any mention of that...

Perhaps it would be a good time to stick up for your colleagues there as well...make a change from when existing crew did not stick up for new crew having to join the DC pension scheme.

The very fact that this new operation, operating new routes from bases with lower costs of living, in new markets, free of the bureaucracy of the existing operation, when the legacy routes are to continue operating from London with existing crews safe, appears to me to be an entirely new operation - who cares what link it has with BA, so long as you prevent crew and aircraft from the new business operating from the existing bases: ever.

Since there is a precedent with CitiExpress operating as a fully-owned subsidiary outside of the master seniority list, I fear you would lose any arbitration or court action if BA were to hardball with the union.

Not to mention that you would tie their hands if they ever wanted to sell off this new operation - if unsuccessful - as it would be too intrinsically tied to mainline.

[FlyingTom]

You make it sound as if the pilots asked for the DC pension errosion. That was BA erroding T&C. It was BA who asked for an alleviation on Sch K so they could run the CE operation out of LCY with a/c in excess of 100 seats. BALPA were reasonable.
Now that BALPA have asked for something in return to protect BA members' careers (it's core role) it is a different story from BA.
Of course with £500M+ profit they have looked after the shareholders? Oh no, they haven't done that either. Just held on to the money so they can waste it on a futile spat.
BA must be looking very long term.

[Walnut]

Project Lauren has been launched by BA because of the accute slot shortage at LHR and the great uncertainty at LHR following the introduction of Open Skies next April.
Whilst I accept the pilots are right to insist that BA honours the Scope agreement between them, any delay in pilot recruitment within PL is much more subject to the jockeying by airlines over their future North Atlantic flights.
One has only to look at the recent feeding frenzy over the GB airways LHR slots to see how determined airlines are to get a slice of the N ATL traffic.
Each one went for about £20M hence BA's desire to set up PL.

[Terminal 5]

I hope this doesn't go all the way to Strike action. As a BA staff member (Not flight or cabin crew) I would be very dissapointed if it got this far. And I think there would be little support from outside the pilot community in BA if this were to happen, especially over this issue. And I would have thought there would be little public support as well.
A series of strikes will probably do more harm than PL would do.

I understand there are fears that this could in the future leave to a deteriation of the T & C's for pilots down the line and also harm future prospects and this is fair enough. I hope that BALPA and BA can work together to address this.

With regards to PL harming future prospects etc I think that the most harm for this will come from the middle east / far east airlines and possibly European airlines such as Lufthansa as they take advantage of openskies. Look what Ryanair / Easyjet et al have done to the European Market.
Surely it is better to come to an agreement with BA with regards to PL so that BA can meet these challenges head on.

If BA doesn't do it then someone else will and that will be to the detriment of all in BA, not just the pilots.

I hope BA isn't taken out by friendly fire from within leaving the way open for other airlines.

Just a thought, if BA was trying to set up a similar thing to PL to take advantage of markets in India / China would BALPA be up in arms?!?!

[TopBunk]

T5
(1)I hope this doesn't go all the way to Strike action.

(2) And I think there would be little support from outside the pilot community in BA if this were to happen, especially over this issue. And I would have thought there would be little public support as well.

(3) I hope that BALPA and BA can work together to address this.

(4) Just a thought, if BA was trying to set up a similar thing to PL to take advantage of markets in India / China would BALPA be up in arms?!?! I think not!!!!

To answer the above:

(1) We all hope that there will be no need to strike.

(2) Do you think we expect any or need any? We never do, but BALPA are getting better at countering the company spin to the media and city.

(3) They are locked in talks that will culminate in the next couple of weeks. They have both undertaken not to raise the temperature on the issue until these talks conclude.

(4) One difference is that BA pilots have the right to work and live in the proposed centres of operation of PL. Would BALPA be concerned if it were proposed to set up in India or China? You betcha, but we have to deal with today - difficult to fight a non-existant foe.

BALPA fully recognise the need for appropriate costs and scheduling agreements in PL, what they want is for all PL pilots to be on the Master BA Seniority list ie to enable people to move between the various bases and fleets. It may be B757 today, but tomorrow if it is a success it could easily be a B777 fleet. All BA pilots want is for BA flying to be done by BA pilots.

[Human Factor]

All BA pilots want is for BA flying to be done by BA pilots.

Terminal 5,

Is there any reason why you wouldn't want the above? Unfortunately, BA and BALPA have been in discussion for a while and BA appear determined to deny us these opportunities. They can avoid a strike by ensuring that all PL pilots are on the Mainline Seniority List. We're not asking for Bidline or anything else, just the List.

As far as public/BA wide support goes, couldn't care less. We've never had it so why seek it.:ugh:

[Terminal 5]

BALPA fully recognise the need for appropriate costs and scheduling agreements in PL, what they want is for all PL pilots to be on the Master BA Seniority list ie to enable people to move between the various bases and fleets. It may be B757 today, but tomorrow if it is a success it could easily be a B777 fleet. All BA pilots want is for BA flying to be done by BA pilots.


That seems like it shouldn't be too hard to accomplish by both sides, are BA really that resistant to that? I guess the issue is they want to pay PL pilots a lot less than mainline pilots and is this something that couldn't be done with PL pilots on the main list? Just trying to understand the pilots point of view in this as well.

It doesn't affect me either way whether BA pilots fly it or not but then if it is the start of a slippery slope towards moving other stuff away from mainline, eg BA functions currently undertaken at LHR but could in theory move elsewhere then yes it does. So if that is an issue BALPA are also worried about as well then it has my, and lots of others i would imagine, support.

Lets hope that in a few years time it is indeed 777's flying those routes from Europe!!

[Hand Solo]

I guess the issue is they want to pay PL pilots a lot less than mainline pilots and is this something that couldn't be done with PL pilots on the main list?
Not so. BA used to pay pilots in the regions and LGW less than those at LHR and they were all on the master seniority list. BALPA have already told BA they are willing to accept different terms and conditions at Lauren than within BA in the UK, all they insist upon is the pilots being on the seniority list. One must wonder what BA's real intentions are if they are so resistant to that.

In fact, having just looked at the proposed pay scales, it would actually be cheaper for BA to pay Lauren pilots the appropriate mainline pay for their first 6 years! If BA want to keep costs down they could simply cap the pay at that point and the Lauren pilots can go to mainline with 6 years seniority or leave. Somehow I doubt many people will be intent on staying beyond 6 years anyway given the debilitating nature of the Lauren work.

[777fly]

I would have thought that direct-entry Captains, as PL propose, are incompatible with a master seniority list.

[Human Factor]

I would have thought that direct-entry Captains, as PL propose, are incompatible with a master seniority list.

Not at all in fact. The theory is that Project Lauren will be open to a bid from all current BA mainline pilots, for either seat. If not enough suitably qualified people bid internally, then flight crew (including Captains) will be recruited externally. The big advantage for new PL recruits is that when they achieve appropriate seniority, they'll be able to move to mainline if they so wish.

In the meantime, it just requires Willie Walsh to appreciate that he's careering down a blind alley by trying to force this issue.:ugh:

[Hand Solo]

Not necessarily. The pay point already exists on the master pay scales. I doubt too many existing BA pilots would be willing to bid for PL positions. DECs could be added to the master seniority list in the knowledge that they are not displacing existing BA pilots from command positions. The DECs could keep their Lauren commands but would have to wait their turn for a UK command.

[Walnut]

Being a member of Balpa I fully understand & support the views being expressed here.
However there is a ticking time bomb at LHR with the coverted 14% of prime time slots held by bmi. Lufthansa has a 30% stake in bmi, and just like BA had with the GB slots/airline at LGW, has first call on the purchase of bmi. This option matures soon. Likewise SAS owns 20% of bmi and is hoping to sell its stake soon. All three of these airlines are part of the Star Alliance, an arch rival of BA.
Just to add a little more interest to the Airline ownership situation at LHR, it is heavily rumoured that Singapore Airlines is seeking to sell its 50% stake in Virgin. Virgin is of course non aligned but SIA is part of the Star Alliance.
All the above is I believe the prime reason for PL.

[stansdead]

Were the Go pilots on any BA master seniority list? If not, has a precedent been set?

[FlyingTom]

SAS has been trying to flog it's BMI stake for years. No one wants it.

[idol detent]

You guys don't seem to get it - The vast majority of applicants (for FO at least) have no interest in joining if being on the seniority list means a hugely slowed progress to command due to secondments.

Er, it's not about how potential applicants feel that is at issue here. It's about future jobs of the current pilots that is being argued. One only needs to look at Qantas v Jetstar or Click v Iberia to see where this might lead the T&Cs of the current pilots. There is no altruism here. It's about preventing the greedy LT in BA from outsourcing our work by the back door.

We are (relatively) happy to see PL on lower pay and different terms, but the work has to stay with 'mainline' crew on the master seniority list.

Notwithstanding the lack of altruism, PL applicants will benfit as they will have the right to work anywhere else in BA with all the financial and BidLine benefits that we now enjoy. I bet you that every applicant to Lauren will, if we get our way, move to LHR after their freeze is up. And I bet you that they will be glad they did. I reckon that there will also be a small number of LHR/LGW pilots that will bid to work for PL for either command or because the European bases suit their lifestyle.

Make no mistake-BA will siphon off work from mainline to PL if BALPA loses this fight. As an industry, do we all aspire to the lowest denominator, or should pilots who enjoy the best T&Cs in the UK just sit back and count our Ferraris whilst we can still afford them? :hmm:



It is amazing to see how some BA pilots cannot conceive of why anyone wouldn't want to be in BA - but believe me, it is very much so.

Eh? I couldn't give a flying fig whether you, him or them over there, join BA. It's your individual choice. For what it's worth, I have nothing but respect for the pilots of all other operators (well, nearly all :)). Your post suggests that we think we are some sort of elite. Well, nothing could be further from reality. We are fortunate to be in the position of (probably) enjoying the best T&Cs in the UK if not Europe. That does not mean we think we are 'better' than you. I sincerely hope that other airlines improve your lot-and more power to your elbow in achieving it!
Your last sentence looks like sour grapes to me-did you apply and fail?

Oh, and if you are right about not getting enough applicants due to command time, then I guess BA will have to improve the T&Cs of Lauren. Somehow, I think they will get enough people through the door.

ATB

ID

[stansdead]

OK. Seeing as my question is being ignored, I will answer it myself.

The GO pilots were never on the BA seniority list. Therefore, you weren't worried about setting up a COMPETING AIRLINE IN LONDON, LET ALONE EUROPE......

If you didn't demand this in GO, then why now?

[airba]

Question about BA Cityflyer: Are they on the Master Seniority List?
"BA Cityflyer is a wholly owned subsidiary of British Airways and operates all UK and European services to and from London City airport."
PL will also be a wholly owned subsidiary of British Airways and operate services to and from mainland airports. They won't even touch UK soil.

[Human Factor]

Were the Go pilots on any BA master seniority list? If not, has a precedent been set?

No and no. Go was a low cost airline. BA European will be operating mainline aircraft (two mainline 757s have already been earmarked, possibly with 767s to follow) with the mainline BA product. Ergo, they should have mainline pilots.

IMHO, the same should have applied to BA Regional however the Scope agreement previously allowed for sub-100 seat aircraft to be outsourced away from LHR and LGW (BA Connect initially and subsequently CitiExpress). They have some seconded mainline Captains.

BA World Cargo (GSS) seconded mainline commands are limited to 2/3rds of GSS commands and the agreement is that all the BAWC flying will be brought back to mainline if there becomes a requirement for more than four 747-400s.

[Human Factor]

Seconded commands from mainline have always been on the table, which would mean similar prospects to the GSS co-pilots, ie. less opportunities for an upgrade.

Those who have applied for the RHS of BA European may yet end up on the mainline list with access to the rest of BA if they want it, depending how negotiations go, I suppose. That in itself is probably a good incentive to be there.

However, as you suggest, I can't imagine a great number of applications for the RHS of knackered old 757s with little prospect of a command. Still, horses for courses...... :uhoh:

Edited to add: Even if the BA European pilots end up on the mainline seniority list, BA European will remain a junior fleet which means an upgrade is likely to be possible in a reasonably short time (similar to, if not quicker than, the 737 at LGW) and significantly less than the fifteen or more to a longhaul command at LHR. If the BA European pilots aren't on the seniority list, the seconded commands from mainline will prevent many of those swaps. Ironically, a command on a BA European 757 is likely to be quicker if the pilots are on the mainline list!!

[stansdead]

Human Factor,
And the Go 737's were not mainline aircraft? So what if Go were a low cost airline?
Is that not what PL is trying to be? In a country outside the UK and possibly outside SCOPE?

[Re-Heat]

and likewise, CityFlyer operates an aircraft that has been operated by mainline at Gatwick.

[Human Factor]

And the Go 737's were not mainline aircraft?

No, they were new orders for a separate low-cost carrier. BA European is not intended to be a "low-cost" airline. It is planned to offer the full BA mainline product.

CityFlyer operates an aircraft that has been operated by mainline at Gatwick.

Correct. The RJ/146s were inherited from the original Cityflyer and absorbed into EOG. They were subsequently transferred up to the regions with mainline flight crew as the Airbus and 737 fleets were withdrawn. They were then transferred to BACon, with some secondments and were retained by BA when BACon was sold to BEA. These aircraft are operated on an alleviation to the sub-100 seat Scope agreement and will be disposed of in favour of smaller aircraft when the leases expire. Some seconded Captains remain.

Like I said, mainline product, mainline aircraft so mainline pilots.

FWIW, I don't think there should be any requirement for Scope. All BA flying (the sadly demised BA Connect, BA Cityflyer, BA World Cargo and BA European) should be flown by pilots on the mainline seniority list.:ugh:

[DickChomh]

IF a pilot for PL accepts a position based on lower terms and conditions than BA mainline and is happy to do so, based on the prospect of open competition for command then thats fine,but if he/she gets the BA mainline seniority list and standard PL terms and conditions then I see it as BA /BALPA pilots just looking after themselves.
If BALPA want to force the seniority list on PL pilots then why not the same T&C's as BA mainline?
I would'nt want a LHR base ever! and would decline PL if a BA seniority list is imposed.
I have no issue with BA pilots looking after themselves but lets not mask it as anything else.:=

[Human Factor]

...based on the prospect of open competition for command...
... except, if you're not on the mainline seniority list, first call on the commands will go to seconded mainline pilots who want them.

If BALPA want to force the seniority list on PL pilots then why not the same T&C's as BA mainline?

...because BA would never go for it in a million years. They don't even want Bidline at LHR. It's there and they have to tolerate it but it would never happen anywhere else (LGW being the prime example). The deal on offer from BALPA is all PL pilots on the seniority list in return for whatever T&Cs BA feel appropriate.

I would'nt want a LHR base ever! and would decline PL if a BA seniority list is imposed.

...then you'd be a fool. There is nothing which says that you must go to LHR if you're on the mainline list. The option would be there if you so desired. If you didn't, you could stay with PL as long as you liked. As I said previously, commands would be pretty likely to be junior so you could swap seats early on and stay there. Assuming of course, BA decide to keep going with PL. If it were discontinued, you could move to a job at LHR/LGW or leave. Up to you.

I have no issue with BA pilots looking after themselves but lets not mask it as anything else.

You're correct. However, if you end up on the mainline list everyone wins. You wouldn't be flying BA mainline aircraft on less than you should be earning and we wouldn't have to be worried about being undercut by a subsidiary.

Two words: Qantas and Jetstar.

Night.;)

[stansdead]

Human Factor,

It was my understanding that the 733's for Go came from within BA. I would love to proved wrong.

[bluepilot]

Go's first 737s came from malasia, spain (air europa) anyone who had 737-300s for sale / lease! later ones were new build ordered direct from Boeing.

[stansdead]

I stand corrected. Was trying to recall why Stelios got so upset about BA cross subsidy.

[idol detent]

I think it was probably because Big BA paid for Go. Which was a bit rich coming from Stelios. Didn't his old man give him a massive interest free 'loan'?

The two networks never really crossed and operated in two different markets which is why there was concern expressed at the time, but not the tub-thumping that we see now.

DickChomh said:
I see it as BA /BALPA pilots just looking after themselves.

Do you honestly believe that it would be any other way? I'm not aware of any BA pilots claiming that this fight is for the benefit of anyone but the BA pilots themselves.

I would'nt want a LHR base ever! and would decline PL if a BA seniority list is imposed.

The Base is dire, I'll grant you that; but once you're away from LHR the operation is usually fine. Just LHR-itis. I think you would be making a mistake by declining PL if/when we end up with a common seniority list for the reasons explained above by HF and myself. You will benefit financially & under BidLine if you work from LHR. However, that in itself is a side-issue and is not the reason we are having this dispute.
Do as most of our LH pilots do and commute from Europe. There is no reason, should you wish, for you to live in the South East if you stay LH. Even SH is commute-able, and with the new Jeppeson software scheduled to come online later this year trip swopping 'should' become a whole lot easier.

Good luck & best wishes

ID

[52049er]

The LT are going to get their fingers very burnt over this. Just imagine if the proposal was for mainline aircraft to fly from Manchester to JFK, using the BA brand, but with Polish aircrew.

Would BALPA's position of 'fine, you can even pay them less, but they must join on the seniority list' be even remotely surprising - indeed it would seem a bit mild!

As we are in the EU, there is absolutely no difference between basing these mainline aircraft at MCT or BRU/MAD - and therefore BALPA's position is not just unsurprising, it is entirely right and understandable.

Previous 'examples' have no bearing on this at all - Go was not using the brand/aircraft of mainline, the various regional operators were really just the b*****d offspring of 9/11 when the whole operation was on life support (bit different now with a 10%+ profit margin on £500m+ profits).

I wouldn't argue for a second that I am looking after anyone but my fellow BA pilots and me - but funnily enough our position benefits anyone joining PL without any downside - as has been explained, being on the seniority list doesn't force you to do anything, it merely opens up options.

For what its worth, I reckon the new 787's will go to PL before mainline. How else are BA going to attract people off our competitors - using 20 year old 757's at the limit of their range? I think not.

[DickChomh]

Human Factor & Idol Detent

Thanks for that!

Missed the wood for the trees.., good points.

[Hand Solo]

I find it peculiar the potential PL pilots are so upset about the possibility of mainline pilots bidding for PL commands on seniority. Notwithstanding the fact that virtually nobody in mainline BA is likely to do it, have they not read the T+Cs of PL? BA reserve the right to employ direct entry captains and have offered command secondments to BA mainline pilots. Any other promotion in Lauren will be on merit, not seniority. Which in BA terms means that if you don't kiss the right backsides you're never going to see a command. I'd rather take my chances with a seniority list and a fairly sure command after 5 years than a mess of outside recruitment and 'merit' based promotions. At least seniority is transparent.

[bushbolox]

Well I couldnt be arsed going for the interview.
The chap (sick) that mentioned that he (and many others) doesnt want to join BA and is attracted by the smell of a command is no better than the dopey cadets that take a buggering off Mike O'Pikey.
If that is the motivation then the nipper kissing regime planned at PL will have a field day.
Well Mr sick and merituous supporters the system you aspire to join is already shafting your command aspirations. I can assure you my interview was not for F/o. So you see they will fill the left seats on a cost neutral basis. One course for a captain not two, one for the f/o and one for replacement. Better pucker up and start kissing as there will be no shortage of DEC people to keep screwing your command chances.Globesapn, jet2,xl,zoom, ad infinitum. Lots of highly qualified 75/6 drivers chasing an ever decreasing pool of decent jobs on type.
However to expand the merituous system (read back door ba arse kissers):
I predict Lots of yes men, with many european pilots moaning about not being able to do visuals and quite happy to screw anyone to get their way.
Havent they got their own national airlines to join? Oh no I forgot , they cant its sewn up. So lets strut around in our new BA uniforms and newly aquired four bars whilst saying we dont want to join BA.
what a crock.
Thank **** Im on the last 15 years of my career and not the first. What a bunch of knobs:ok:

[TheKabaka]

Do you honestly believe that it would be any other way? I'm not aware of any BA pilots claiming that this fight is for the benefit of anyone but the BA pilots themselves.

Maybe true but for the reasons others have metioned this is good for anyone joining PL. BA pilots are not directed onto other fleets or even to upgrade so if you are happy at PL stay, however I don't think anyone can argue that having access to BA mainline is a disadvantage.

I predict Lots of yes men, with many european pilots moaning about not being able to do visuals

This gets on my nerves why do people assume BA pilots are prohibited/unable to do visual approaches?

[bushbolox]

Kabaka,
calm down , the dig was directed at the endless stream of cloggies and belges who think we brits fly like old people but are still happy to take our jobs and shag our women, with their cheap legal dope and easily obtainable porn, naked saunas, attractve liberal women etc etc God I envy them.:ok:

[bluepilot]

Its the cloggies (read KLM/KLC) who are bogged down with "prosseeedures" etc, believe me they are anything BUT liberal!!

[747-436]

Sunday Times Business Section Article:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3136516.ece

[Make it so]

STANSDEAD<
OK. Seeing as my question is being ignored, I will answer it myself.

The GO pilots were never on the BA seniority list. Therefore, you weren't worried about setting up a COMPETING AIRLINE IN LONDON, LET ALONE EUROPE......

If you didn't demand this in GO, then why now?>

...because the BAC screwed up. It won't happen again.

[900]

HF, I'm impressed that you have knowledge of the product on offer from PL. My understanding (from the mouth of a very well connected horse, who must I'm afraid remain anon) is that the offer has yet to be decided even at this late stage. But what is known is that the full BA brand, as we know it, will not be on offer.

[Hand Solo]

The specifics of what PL offers are not important. We know it will offer a premium product and probably an economy product and it will be on BA airframes. That's enough to know it's a threat.

[Human Factor]

900,

You should be. ;)

The premium product at this stage is unlikely to include the flat beds as they're not compatible with the 757s. They are with 767s though....

Right, I'm off. Not a lot else to add really. See you on the other side..... :E

[Walnut]

Talking of seats I understand startup is now pushed back to June at least due to lack of suitable seats/cabin furnishings for this premium project

[Tandemrotor]

No major surprise there, since they haven't even started selling any tickets yet.

(But may be rather soon apparently!)

[The SSK]

Announcement today, 1300Z

Lauren has a new name

[Heffer]

Any guesses :)

[The SSK]

Here's a clue, the website is www.fly*********.com

[3Greens]

The SSK

Why bother coming on here if you are only going to post unfunny guessing game type tripe.
Please leave this topic and indeed pprune for those that actually
1. have something useful to contribute
2. work in the industry/have something to contribute to the industry
3. are ACTUALLY funny.

[airba]

http://www.flyopenskies.com/

[The SSK]

So sorry to have offended you 3Greens.

Was it because I knew something you didn't?

[3Greens]

SSK


No, it was because you were being an arse and all smug with what you did know. Why you just couldn't post what you knew in the first place i don't know. A:mad:

[brakedwell]

It's a shame they can't call it Air Europe! :sad::sad:

[Tandemrotor]

A rather more significant announcement regarding this 'venture' will be made towards the end of next week.

I don't know of anyone expecting good news!

Likely to make the opening of BA's 'flagship' T5 a little messy to say the least!

[Rateofdescent]

I don't understand everything here, but as announced it is only going to be 82 seats. How does that match with SCOPE?
I am interested in PL as DEC and I think it is best for all pilots if we are indeed on one seniority list. Even if I am not interested to fly for mainline at all.

[52049er]

The fundamentals of scope prevent bypassing them simply by removing seats from an normally 100+ seater aircraft.

[757flyer]

I can see the BA side to this... the answer is predicting and controlling costs.

If the Openskys pilots are placed on the mainline seniority list and openskys is open to mailine pilots as a bid then training costs will soar.

Lets face it most openskys first officers would be bidding straight into mainline as soon as their (presumed) 5 year freeze is up, these pilots have to be replaced and ratings / training is a big cost. Also with mainline pilots taking commands in openskys they will be there for again say 5 years then bidding back to mainline, this generates costs on both sides to mainline and openskys. By keeping openskys a seperate entity these costs can be predicted and controlled.

I cannot see a mainline pilot giving up his pension rights to go for a command in openskys either.... next Balpa will be demanding that the "mainline" pilots retain their company pension contributions whilst working for openskys.... then open skys will want the same deal etc again costs soar.

I can see the fear of the mainline pilots over the threat of openskys to their t and c. Perhaps a different approach will be needed... an agreement that openskys will never operate into UK airfields? never "W" pattern into the UK etc? and it is kept an entirely seperate entity in europe with no rights either way of pilots transferring to mainline or vice versa.

[FlyingTom]

BA have stated that pension contributions will be protected for secondees.

Ironically the OpenLies contribution rate is better than the BA BARP rate.

As the only secondees are likely to be junior DEP bidding for command, therefore Barpers, this is another example where BA claim it will increase costs whereas in reality it is cheaper for them.

[justinzider]

Looks like our hand has been forced and a strike ballot is imminent........

Talks failed to reach a satisfactory outcome for BALPA today.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Terminal 5]

I guess it is a case of damned if you do damned if you don't in this as if pilots strike it will encourage BA to possibly put more routes out to Europe, if you don't they might do it anyway.

Do all these strike funds cover the other staff in BA who are potentially going to be shafted by the long term consequences of any strike action?!?!

I am hoping that after previous strikes people are no longer associating BA with striking and now with potential for action looming it is a worry that it might happen again.

Pilots seem to be the least militant of the industrial groups at BA so hopefully there might be a chance this can be sorted before striking, or is it really no further chance of talks??

[Open Lies]

T5

Hmm interesting question.

Let me reassure you that it is the last thing in my career I ever though I would have to contemplate.

I will not be proud to go on strike.
I do not want to go on strike.
But BA management has pushed us once too many time.
So I will go on strike.

We have all endured a constant barrage of cuts attacks on our terms and conditions over the past few years.

But lets just examine the evidence. BA pilots have not gone on strike for over 20 years (anyone make that more accurate please)

But I have experienced:

Multiple cabin crew strikes and threats of strikes

Illegal, non balloted walk outs from the terminal staff twice in the last few years.

Illegal, non balloted walk outs by the loaders in 2005

Constant work to rules by just about all the other work groups - which still go on today


Not that its the reason we have a grievance, - but how did all those industrial woes harm the long term prospects of the airline, as I seem to recall that we are the most profitable passenger airline in the world ?

Did you see the pilots berating the other groups ? I dont recall that happening.

We have the most serious grievance with BA I could imagine. Are you aware that the pilot group has a very strong set of rules bid line rules. They are ignored by ourselves day in, day out. We are the most on-side, can do unionised work group in BA. We ignore our BALPA/BA agreed rule set on a daily basis and work far, far beyond it.

A large percentage of our flights would be canceled every day if it wasn't for the pilots working significantly above and beyond the scope of our industrial agreements.

We do not yet know what BALPA will be formulating. Rest assured that we could grind the airline to a halt by not even striking, but by working to only the extent of our industrially agreed rule set.


Only then may some people realise just how on side we were before.

I'm afraid the pilots have finally had enough of being taken for granted. We will get little sympathy from other corners of the airline, nor will we expect any.

If we do end up striking, rest assured it will be a fully legal strike.

Our only quiet observation will be the gross hypocrisy.

Beware the wrath of a patient man. We have been extremely patient.

[Open Lies]

T5

Hmm interesting question.

Let me state that the last thing in my career I ever thought I would have to contemplate is striking.

I will not be proud to go on strike.
I do not want to go on strike.
But BA management has pushed us once too many time.

This is blatant outsourcing of our jobs
So I will go on strike.

We have all endured a constant barrage of cuts attacks on our terms and conditions over the past few years.

But lets just examine the evidence. BA pilots have not gone on strike for over 20 years (anyone make that more accurate please)

But I have experienced:

Multiple cabin crew strikes and threats of strikes

Illegal, non balloted walk outs from the terminal staff twice in the last few years.

Illegal, non balloted walk outs by the loaders in 2005

Constant work to rules by just about all the other work groups - which still go on today


So how did all those industrial woes harm the long term prospects of the airline ? We are currently the most profitable passenger airline in the world - I dont seek to harm that.

Did you see the pilots berating the other groups industrial spats? I dont recall that happening.

We have the most serious grievance with BA I could imagine. Are you aware that the pilot group has a very strong set of rules bid line rules. They are ignored by ourselves day in, day out. We are the most on-side, can do unionised work group in BA. We ignore our BALPA/BA agreed rule set on a daily basis and work far, far beyond it.

A large percentage of our flights would be canceled every day if it wasn't for the pilots working significantly above and beyond the scope of our industrial agreements.

We do not yet know what BALPA will be formulating. Rest assured that we could grind the airline to a halt by not even striking, but by working to only the extent of our industrially agreed rule set.


Only then may some people realise just how on side we were before.

I'm afraid the pilots have finally had enough of being taken for granted. We will get little sympathy from other corners of the airline, nor will we expect any.

If we do end up striking, rest assured it will be a fully legal strike.

Our only quiet observation will be the gross hypocrisy.

Beware the wrath of a patient man. We have been extremely patient.