Banks and loans - credit crisis?

[chris-squire]

Hi to all,

Just a friendly note to say that HSBC and Barclays have now completely stopped doing Professional Studies loans for an ATPL. I'm over the moon about this after spending hours on a business plan which the bank manager at HSBC commented was one of the best he had seen for a very long time (with the help of my fathers input) and even during the presentation he was sure that the funding was still available. Unfortunately Barclays have also gone south on this issue. :ugh:

Whilst this thread may seem pointless and negative I actually wanted to write this to say to anyone in my position at the moment....DO NOT GIVE UP! If you are half as eager to get into this proffession as I am, and for the right reasons, then DO NOT GIVE UP!

Anyone out there in this crap situation that doesn't know where to try next reply to this and maybe between us we can come up with some idea's!!!

Cheers

Chris

[bri1980]

Try different branches. Each branch has it's own rules etc. and can be different from the same bank just up the road.

I know it's a lot harder to get PSLs for flying training these days, but it's not impossible!

If you walk in and ask for 70k then you are in for a hard time, but say you need 15k for a CPL and FI rating then you are in much better territory. Excellent job prospects (shortage of instructors) less financial risk for them etc.

You have to give and take with the banks quite often and give them an incentive. Usually this is of the form of 'I can afford to pay you back if I fail at flying because...'

Banks are hard cases to crack, but it can be done.

Bri

[chris-squire]

Hi,

Well I did go to the Poole head office and speak to a very high up business specialist (through contacts at my current work). Still a big fat no.

However I did do a comprehensive section in my business plan which covered "How would I pay you back if I couldn't get a flying job". I nailed that part with, I'm currently an Accountant and can earn 'X', even produced a copy of the latest Hays Finance and Accounting Salary guide proving as much.

After speaking with parents I'm now looking at borrowing £50k SECURED! So no way I can mess it up! Not that I intended to anyway, but you catch my drift.

One big headache!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Welcome to the Global Credit Crunch.

WWW

[c_jephcott]

Firstly, this doesn't actually surprise me at all. If you take a totally over-subcribed industry, at saturation point with low houred frozen ATPL holders, and then add the number of pilots that are being added each year to those figures, then the risk factor for the banks in terms of obtaining the money back would be much greater. For the bank, us student pilots are seen as an investment - they put some money in, they get a lot back in a few years time. However, with the number of f(ATPL) holders dramatically exceeding the number of jobs available, then the banks might well be starting to come round to the view that there is just too much risk in these loans.

In short, it's a problem that we've heard mentioned time and time again - too many applicants, not enough places.

In a final note, I assume this is likely to have a negligable impact on us loan holders already?

[hollingworthp]

OAT and their local HSBC still do it and I believe Cabair and their local HSBC also still do PSL.

BBVA UK will loan for FTE and OAT so you may want to try them.

[chris-squire]

Barclays have now also refused the application unless it can be paid back during training, which is basically impossible.

They are happy with my crudentials as far as actually being able to pay back the loan (with the help of my fathers business) should I not be able to get a flying job but with the banks tightening up after months of bad publicity it looks like bleak time ahead for any new wanabee's.

For you guys who are currently training...all I can say is keep your heads up, jobs are bound to appear again, Tourism is officially the fastest growing industry in the world and has been for some years. Being an Accountant I even went through the Consolodated Profit and Loss figures with the bank and showed that the vast majority of Airlines (Passenger and Cargo) are reporting consistent growth in profits year on year, whilst this continues they will only expand and order new aircraft.:ugh::ugh::ugh::confused:

[Grass strip basher]

I thought they stopped doing the loans ages ago (ex-special agreements with the likes of Oxford etc).

To understand why the banks have done this just do a search for some of the threads on "bankruptcy" on this forum and thank the folks who were actively encouraging people to shirk their responsibilities and go down the route of declaring yourself bankrupt post training to avoid paying back training costs.... this is a simple derivative of that attitude... if enough wannabe pilots don't pay back what they owe then the banks are quite right to pull the plug. Don't blame the banks blame those that have gone before you and not honored a contract they entered with the banks when they started their training :{

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

But the logic and practicalities of going bankrupt post training still hold good. You may no longer be able to finance the training via a career development loan but you can still get all manner of unsecured loans and credit for general use.

Career Development Loans were always slightly suspect for funding basic training. As their name implies they should really only apply to, say, a Flying Instructor wanting to fund an IR or Type Rating which would allow him to 'develop' his already started career.

WWW

[bri1980]

The bank that I spoke to (where I have been a customer for 7 years) said that airline training was not likely to attract funding because the market is too volatile. Lots of jobs one minute and none the next.

Flight instructing however was something they were willing to consider provided I paid for the PPL and ATPL groundschool. They would effectively pay for the CPL and FI rating with a Professional Development Loan. And that was only 6 weeks ago!

B

[portsharbourflyer]

HSBC won't lend you the money, not a surprise, you can thank all the "clever" people before hand whom thought that declaring backruptcy was the answer.
There is no reason in the world why a bank should lend you the money other than if you have the appropriate credit history and income to support the loan. So if your current income and credit history is good enough you can get a standard unsecured loan for 25000 with a three month deferrment from any mainstream bank. If it isn't then you need to work and save for longer.

[chris-squire]

Well yes thanks very much to the "clever" folk out there who have now completely knackered anyone else's chances! The bank are right to be cautious with all the bad press that they have had but then again it's not like they didn't deserve it.

I have proved to them that I can pay back the loan, flying or not, I have provided security in the form of my father, I have spent hours and hours doing a business plan only to be told that "oh no sorry we've recently stopped doing them for ATPL's" Don't get me wrong, I'm not on here to have a good whinge, but to come so close and get shot down is a bit pants.

However I am now looking at what other banks can do and in the mean time saving everything I can from my day job to self fnd as much as possible. It's all fun but then again no pain no gain. :)

[Grass strip basher]

"But the logic and practicalities of going bankrupt post training still hold good"
:rolleyes:
Seems to be a magnet somewhere near your moral compass?? and as such the likes of chris-squire suffer as a result of this sort of attitude as the opportunities that were available to others to finance their training are now not availiable to him. Shirking your responsbilities be they debt or otherwise strikes me as a cowardly and selfish way out of agreements you have signed up to in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Anyway this has been covered before many times and each individual has his/her own level of what they consider to morally acceptable behaviour. Just a shame others have to suffer the consequences through no fault of their own

[XL319]

The banks make enough money out of "us" as it is......£7bn profits for Barclays and the like. I think it's disgusting!!!

As for people declaring themselves bankrupt...good for them, i think it's great that they have finally managed to break out of that downward spiral which was instigated by the banks in the first place.

I do not think being bankrupt is the answer at all, but i do think that the banks have a lot to answer for when it comes to low paid/people with limited means. They are the banks bread and butter...and they know it.

[potkettleblack]

The old adage cream always rises to the top still rings true. Those that find a way and battle through all of the challenges will make it through and good on em. Along the way they will probably learn more from the knocks and have greater experiences to share at interview time as well. It might just tip the scale showing the interviewers how you are made of tough metal.

[chris-squire]

Grass Strip, Pot Kettle - Great comments!!! It is the likes of me and others like me who genuinely struggle to get our foot on the ladder that get seriously p*****d off with those who think that bailing out of financial responsibility is the right move and I forsee times when employers will be taking a dim view of those who do so, after all, the airlines want someone that they can rely on. Hardly a great demonstration of that now is it!

These challenges build character and at the tender age of 21 I do have time on my side to a degree but I'm soooooo eager to ger flying, whether it be in the right hand seat of a 737 or a TP, I don't care, just want to fly for a living! The money genuinely doesn't motivate me, as long as I can put a decent roof over my head, pay the bill's and look after my family then that's fine by me. I would quite happily take a reduced salary for the rest of my career if it meant that I got a flying job.

Sounds desperate but at least I want this for the right reasons I guess.:)

[Grass strip basher]

Ah yes its the banks fault.... certainly not the responsibility of the individual.

I hate to break it to you but the big UK banks will make c£30bn this year in net profit not £7bn... c50% of which comes from overseas. How much money do you think the banks make from "low paid people with limited means"?? Believe me it is bu**er all, if it wasn't for the government's social inclusion rules they would have nothing to do with that customer base.

The profits also means the banks are paying over £10bn in taxes a large slug of which helps support the UK public sector. XL319 do you have any idea how Barclays makes it profits?? Or the benefits that you enjoy from the UK having a healthy financial services industry? What is it with everyone wanting to knock successful businesses in the UK??

If you don't like them don't use them... why should banks provide a service to you for free??... you don't work for free do you? (Unless you are a new pilot at Ryanair of course... :O)

Anyway we digress..... chris-squire good luck with finding another route to fund your training, you have my sympathy but you at least seem to have your head screwed on so I'm sure you will get there in the end :ok:

[chris-squire]

Well coming from a financial background I know just how much the banks make. As I mentioned earlier, when I was reading through the consolodated trading P&L for the major UK carriers it now makes me laugh when the likes of BA and Virgin come out with their sob stories in Accounts publications about how much money they aren't making per seat! I am convinced that the jobs market will pick up again, hopefully in about 2 years time whien I will be looking.

As for those currently advocating going bankrupt...:D well done, you're all very clever and have done this industry a world of good. Good luck when applying for a mortgage!
:mad:

In the mean time, one way or another I will be flying for a living over the next 18 months. Look out airlines..here I come! :)

[BlueRobin]

You could always save up ... :suspect:

[chris-squire]

I am already saving up but even with being in a reasonably well paid job its a tad hard to save up £50k +. Maybe a few thousand but by the time I had enough I would have a mortgage around my neck and probably kids too. Don't take that as meaning that I'm not willing to go down that road as I may have to if all else fails but I figure the younger I am the more chance I have, and also, trying to save that sort of money when I have a mortgage will be near impossible. I know that sounds very defeatist but this industry requires me to be realistic.

Cheers anyway though.

[bri1980]

I have a mortgage will be near impossible. I know that sounds very defeatist but this industry requires me to be realistic.

You hit the nail on the head! The realism is that you will probably have to go modular, and perhaps get CPL/FI in the first instance rather than CPL/IR because a) it's cheaper and you can probably get the banks to part with a more modest sum of money and a realistic objective, and b) you can be paid to fly.

Banks have seen the '70k for ATPL' too many times to be fooled now. Even if YOU intend to pay it back there are plenty who didn't and that is why the banks are reluctant.

You also have to have the atitude that to reach ATPL you might have to take an indirect route: that part of the plan seems to be lost on the 'youth' of today!:= There seems to be an atitude of I want an ATPL and I want it now!

B

[chris-squire]

Youth of today!!! You're 27 not 77! I don't have that attitude at all and I am looking at a modular route but the costs involved intraining are massive, as you know and the days of being able to fund part of you training, pay it off and move onto the next bit are long gone in my view. By the time you have paid it off your ratings are beginning to lapse and in the mean time you can barely afford to live. And when i say live I mean being able to eat not having a nice car or going on holiday etc!

So yes I do want an ATPL and I do want it ASAP but don't mistake that for not being prepared for hard work and sacrafice because believe me nothing could be further from the truth, in my case anyway.

I do however agree with your comment on the banks. They have wised up but unfortunately the very clever individuals who thought it wise to dump their debt have ruined it for newby's like me. But as I also said earlier, this industry requires 3 key things in my book 1) Realism 2) Commitment 3) Bloody Hard Work! I am prepared for all 3.:)

[bri1980]

Good. I wasn't necessarily referring to you specifically-but there is quite an attitude in the wannabes forums that the direct route is the only way, and airlines are the be all and end all.

You will be able to get banks to part with money if you don't ask for too much and are realistic about your objective. The chances of being taken on as an instructor are higher than an airline, and it costs a bit less.

I do agree that the do it, pay for it and do the next bit approach is not really an option due to ratings lapsing etc. But one just has to think a little laterally about these things.

Don't forget you can cut your hour building bill massively by flying your friends/work colleagues at weekends-so long as you don't advertise the flight, carry 4 or less people, and pay an equal share. Firends tell friends and often you can find quite a few people who want to fly around and see their house etc.

B

[chris-squire]

Yes I have noticed that there does seem to be quite a few young whingers on here that want the gold bars on their shoulders more than the job itself, just wanted to make it abundantly clear that I'm not one of those. As for everyone being obsessed with airlines, I do agree, far too many people talk down the TP jobs with the likes of Flybe or even cargo flying. Morons! Jobs like that seem like a great way to build hours and get commercial experience. Infact I will be aiming for a job with Flybe out of SOU when I eventually fininsh my training.

To be honest I didn't realise that you could fly your friends around and cut your hours building costs down that way. I thought you could only do that with a CPL but anything like that where I can cut my costs down is a bonus!

One question...does time in the Sim count towards TFT? Im guessing not but wasn't sure???

[Mikehotel152]

Banks are :ugh:

When I was at Law School 10 years ago and asked for a £2,000 loan to pay off my credit card they tried to get me to borrow £25,000 simply because I was doing law. And I would estimate that less than half those I was with at Law School went on to get employment.

I went on to practise for 5 years as a solicitor and despite having another career to fall back on, the bank now refuse to consider me for a loan to pay for any of my flying training.

But because of having been a solicitor and despite knowing that I am unemployed during my flying training, they've just granted me a £10,000 loan on the simple basis that it is pre-approved.

Go figure.

[I know I will pay back all the money without missing a payment for various reasons, but you have to question the consistency in their corporate decision-making]

[bri1980]

To be honest I didn't realise that you could fly your friends around and cut your hours building costs down that way. I thought you could only do that with a CPL but anything like that where I can cut my costs down is a bonus!

One question...does time in the Sim count towards TFT? Im guessing not but wasn't sure???


The rules on private flying are simple:

1. You can carry upto 3 passengers.
2. They can pay provided you pay at least an equal share of the flight cost for the number of people on board.
3. The flight cannot be advertised formally, but word of mouth amongst friends will be fine.

You can only count sim time if it was a designated flight test: I have two hours in an A330 sim but it was fun not a test so it doesn't count.

B

[bri1980]

But because of having been a solicitor and despite knowing that I am unemployed during my flying training, they've just granted me a £10,000 loan on the simple basis that it is pre-approved.



What do you mean by pre-approved?

[portsharbourflyer]

Pre-Approved, simply means that due to the current credit rating of the individual the bank will lend a certain amount. Pre-approved loans are normally offered by banks as a "promotional offer", you don't apply for them, banks will often mailshot all customers with a certain credit rating stating that you may take out a loan of X amount, essentially the bank hopes the offer will tempt some individuals into taking out a loan. Obvioulsy it is targetted at those that have a credit rating that suggests they will easily meet the repayments.
I am not sure exactly how many people have defaulted on loans as a result of flight training, but it seems there is reasonable evidence from posts on this forum that it has happened. I would also like to point out these were also the same sort of people that challenged training bonds in the european courts, claiming that as they limited someones ability to move jobs it was effectively illegal, consequence is more airlines have switched to self sponsored type rating arrangements.
Chris Squire,
If you have a decent job then keep working while you hour build, do distance learning for the ATPL thoery then you will only need to give up work for the CPL and IR. That way you will only need to borrow about 25000, as said if you are currenly working then you won't have too much problem securing a loan of that size. There is no point gaining too much debt; after training to get a job you will either need to instruct on mimimal earnings, or self fund a type rating, with 50 k of debt neither of these will be an option.
Aiming for a job with Flybe, you will be lucky, although the last advertising campaign stated "live local fly local" adverts.
I know someone with first time passes in everything, an aero degree, currently a full time instructor and an address 20 miles from the main flybe base and still gets ignored by them.

[Re-Heat]

Perhaps you've not noticed that the credit markets have seized up, and HSBC is sitting on a large amount of rubbish loans to everyone and everything at the moment...!

Not even the PE houses can get multi-billion dollar loans for buyouts this month.

[Re-Heat]

Just to add - WWW - this seize up has been caused by fraudulent home loans in the US, which people have defaulted on rather than paying. Little different from your "planned" bankruptcy idea - which pooled across many people actually does have a huge impact.

Their reluctance to lend to any group (pilots) that has some immoral members who are planning to default on their loans (ref your previous comments in that long thread on the matter) is hardly surprising...

[bri1980]

What all this says really is that to be a pilot you have to have a rich daddy really. Airlines won't pay, banks won't pay (on the whole) so that leaves your parents (who in my case won't pay) or selling your granny (which I don't have).

As I have said, to get loans from banks you have to set the sights lower and ask for less cash-the less you ask for the less risk they take and the more likely you are to persuade them.

In the rail industry it is the law that all driver training (about £50k) has to be paid for by the train companies at the approved schools. All the aptitude tests are centrally administered and identical for all candidates regardless of company. And don't think for one moment that getting to be a train driver is easy-just try their Group Bourdon aptitude test...it's mind boggling!

But perhaps the rail industry model is a good one as it ensures a consistent standard of training in a safety critical industry and that the new driver doesn't have sleepless nights because of £50k debt hanging over his head for the next few years.

Sorry for the slight drift.

[chris-squire]

Well the rich daddy thing isn't an option for me, although my parents do have significant security to offer which does help my case. And some good news...I was up until 3am this morning (then in the gym at 6!!!:zzz:) and it looks like my best chance is to go to a flight school such as cabair who still have close ties with the bank. Have to wait and see what happens but it does mean bleak times ahead for any flight schools not linked to a bank and also less choice for the customer unless they have a rich daddy to send them wherever they fancy. This may also mean that an elitist attitude may wangle its way into the industry. Not good!:ugh:

[camel toe]

Absolute bull coming out at the end of this thread. I am paying for everything myself, saving and doing, saving and doing. It's what I did to go to Uni and then afterwards to go and backpack around the world.

It is possible, cos I'm managing perfeclty fine. For sure I make sacrifices, and have to take on overtime at work etc, but at the end of it I'll owe no money to anyone and I will not have screwed up my chances of getting a mortgage.

I'm sure it would be different if I was raising a child, so I can only comment to those who don't have a family - it is possible without borrowing £50k just work harder and smarter.

My last jab is to those who have or are planning to default on large loans, firstly this comment is pretty much from the fence as I am not going down the route so the fact that banks are not doing them anymore has no bearing on me. You are absolute idiots! Not only do I have a moral objection to what is basically stealing but you are going to run into difficulty in later life when you might really need that credit facility from a bank.

Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande?"

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2196647/ten-uni-students-insolvent

10% of Uni graduates are going Bankrupt and walking away from their debts. This will be 20% in a few years time.

The US mortgage situation is hardly fraudulent. With interest rates at 1% the banks were falling over themselves to give huge mortgages on teaser rates to rednecks and vagrants who would never be able to sustain them. The banks didnt care. The banks CAUSED the current crises. My heart does not bleed for them.

This situation in the UK is little different. Instead of Sub Prime we have Lie To Buy (Self Certification) and we also have Buy To Let whereby people of modest means and intelligence are encouraged to make highly geared speculation on property. Now that the property prices are coming down and rents don't even come close to cover the mortgages they will all have to sell all at the same time and all for a heavy loss. Again, the Banks caused this by lending recklessly.

But this is by the by.

You can still get two credit cards with £8k limits, still get a £2k overdraft and still get a pre-approved any-puropse loan for £20k all in an afternoon if you have a clean history and an average wage job.

£38k is enough to cover the modular PPL CPL Multi and IR.

If you are young and have no ties then there is very little stopping you going bankrupt. It won't stop you getting a job in a years time nor will it prevent you getting a mortgage in a couple of years time.

Rubbish system. But its the one this Government bestowed upon us and people are totally rational and logical in their exploitation of it.

Cheers

WWW

[chris-squire]

camel toe - I congratulate anyone who finds a way of self funding their training so forgive me for being a tad rude here but ask yourself this...How old are you now, how old will you be when you complete your training...in reality how can you pay rent/mortgage whilst saving etc. and finally I work in a fairly well paid job which is salaried and not hourly i.e no special overtime rate...so how are you finding enough money to save to complete your training? Believe me I have looked at this option but when I sat down and worked it all out it would take me around 8-10 years to complete the training! So bearing in mind that I am now 21 I wouldn't be able to get my first job until I was 31 at the earliest. Yes I would be reasonably debt free but between now and 10 years time I could have completed my training, got a job and paid back a very large part of my initial borrowing.
To me it just doens't make sense to do it this way anymore. And besides whilst my mrs is prepared to support me in anything I do, it isn't really fair to ask her to live at home for the next 10 years until I can get a job.

Now please don't mistake this for me having the "I want an ATPL and I want it now" attitude because nothing could be further from the truth, I am prepared to give up everything, work my arse off for a few years and then fight to get a job like everyone else...but there are limits in terms of time in my book and 10 years is just too long.
All comes back to reality.
Cheers
War and Peace Chapter 8!

[camel toe]

My "business plan" was and still is a 2-3 year one. I moved back home to save on rent, I still pay board and I get no direct financial help from my parents.

I too work in a salaried job and receive time and half for overtime, nothing special there. When I needed an injection of extra cash a few months back I worked in a bar a couple of evenings a week getting paid bar wages too. I'm fortunate in that I enjoy my day job.

I have 3 friends who have done almost exactly the same thing, one is now on the Dash 8, one on the 146 and the other is a FI. All worked, completed a module, worked, completed a module. One of these started at the plan at 18 and she got her first airline position 3 years later, another took less than 3 years starting on the road at 25, and the last was instructing in about the same time and was about 28 when starting out with a mortgage (albeit shared with a partner).

I would not want to pass comment on your individual circumstances or even try to offer advice like "do this, do that", I am just trying to make people aware that it can be done, and by an averaged salary individual from an 18 year old on lowish salary, to a late 20's with a mortgage. However I appreciate everyones circumstances are different and what can work for one, may and by the sounds of it cannot work for another.

Moving on from here, a previous poster has made a good point re credit cards, just jiggle them around, use the free balance transfers etc to boost your capital. Interestingly enough I am led to believe that as long as you don't default on any of these your credit score will be higher when it comes to getting a mortgage.

[AlphaMale]

I see both points here from camel toe and Chris.

I am going down the same route of what camel toe has done. I don't earn a huge amount of money and the money I did have saved toward my modular 0-fATPL has now been reduced to almost £0 after buying an apartment for £120k. I'm getting the keys on Tue and already I am thinking about renting the place out. I'm sure I can get a tenant in there and with the current rates of rent in the same building it should cover 90% of my mortgage payment.

This will let me put most of my earnings into my 'APTL' bank account, and with the security of already being on the property ladder which is a struggle to get on. I got the place from a friend and had no fees, apartment next door sold for £128k two weeks ago and with further development in the area soon I don't think £130k would be far off what the apartment is worth, £10k in 6 months isn't bad

I figure I'll be in the US in 2 years time starting my training and finishing with very little/no debts. Should I need a TR then I might knock on the door of a bank but I'm looking to get to the top over a matter of years and not months. FI > FI/AirTaxi > TP > Cago > RHS Airline > LHS Airline.

Like you it's not the money that inspires me to take to the skies. I can earn far more than a BA Captain and be home with my family every night if I stick to web/application development. :ugh:

Good luck ;)

[cfwake]

Hi everyone

Can I just ask WWW why he thinks that giving people advice on getting unsecured debt with the full intention of declaring themselves bankrupt is constructive? It is FRAUDULENT, thus ILLEGAL, and can land you in some very, very serious trouble. Do you have the personal experience of doing this WWW or are you going off what other people seem to think is okay? If you have beliefs otherwise, then go and speak to a lawyer about the wisdom of carrying out such an action.

It's a stupid idea, which is why people don't do it.

cf

[bri1980]

It is a stupid idea. But I have been told in the past by people inside the industry that if you really want to be a pilot can you really ignore it as an option?

For some people it's the only way they can possibly 'fund' their training! Some people of the right age will have no security for loans and no way of getting parental guarantees etc. So unless they want to forget about their chosen career, the bakruptcy route becomes a real option!

Whilst I agree entirely with your sentiments cfwake-I think the lengths to which some people will go mean that they will go down this route. And the reason they have to go this way is because airlines, who lets face it make huge profits, are too penny pinching and idle to pay for their pilots training.

I hope that one day their shortsighted policies will come home to roost! In the meantime, lets forget the bankruptcy 'option': it's not wise!

B

[chris-squire]

The whole idea of declaring bankruptcy is really not a great idea. Like it or not it WILL affect your credit for many many years!

All it serves to do it make banks even more wary of lending such vast amounts of money to newby pilots. If too many more people take this route then the likes of HSBC will shut their doors to all borrowing linked to an ATPL course and that will be that. Rich daddy or don't bother will then set in and for us wanabee's that just want to fly and step up to our responsibilities, financial or otherwise, we will find progressing much beyond PPL a near impossible task!


Anyway, on a more positive note...with the airlines making such massive profits hopefully it won't be too long before they start offering more sponsorships again. Although I don't think full sponsorships will ever be seen again.

CS

[bri1980]

I know that people do say that full sponsorships will never be seen. But think about it. Is it such a bad thing if the banks stop lending-even for integrated courses at FTOs like Oxford/CTC/FTE?

If they did that, the airlines would have to consider sponsorships again as there are unlikely to be enough rich daddies around to provide sufficient crews!

Whenever people pay for it though, the airlines will let us! Catch 22-they know we have no choice but to pay.

[cfwake]

bri1980 - i agree completely with what you say - it is unfortunate that this field does lead some people to try such a stunt, i just though that some previous posts may have sounded like it was a practice to be encouraged and recommended - i would argue that if the choice was bankruptcy fraud or not be a pilot, as much as i love the flying, i'd have to go with my second choice career and work up slowly!!!!!

[bluepeely]

The only way youll get out of a bank with 60k is with stockings on your head, but i dont recommend that kind of behaviour obviously. To obtain a credit rating to get close to that kind of money is tricky but theres a way of doing it and if your determind enough and brave enough it can be done. The question is can you afford to lose it all if it does go Pete Tong and who will be affected by it. :uhoh:

[bri1980]

Thats why I am paying for as much as I can, going down the instructing route intially because its slightly cheaper in the short term, and then only using a loan for a mad dash at the end for the CPL/FI.

B

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I can only suggest you get yourself into a reasonably paid job, like myself and use it to finance the flying.
It maybe much slower, but at least you will have security on any loan - something that I don't have other than a job!
So far I've paid for all of it myself through hard bl**dy work over a few years, but a loan isn't too far off now, so this is something I will be getting organised shortly.

Don't think about getting a loan without a job or security because it won't happen.

Cirrus.

[camel toe]

I hope when I'm qualified that people don't pigeon hole me as a "daddys boy" just cause I'm not in debt or bankrupt. I'm working to fund all my training, with no direct financial help from my parents.

It is possible people, it just requires a little more sustained determination.

Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande?"

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

cfwake wrote: Can I just ask WWW why he thinks that giving people advice on getting unsecured debt with the full intention of declaring themselves bankrupt is constructive? It is FRAUDULENT, thus ILLEGAL, and can land you in some very, very serious trouble. Do you have the personal experience of doing this WWW or are you going off what other people seem to think is okay? If you have beliefs otherwise, then go and speak to a lawyer about the wisdom of carrying out such an action.

It's a stupid idea, which is why people don't do it.


If you do a search you will find a long and illuminating thread where the planned bankruptcy strategy was fully discussed.

I'll save you the trouble:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204624&highlight=planned+bankruptcy&page=2

The fact is people are doing it and getting away with it. I could name names.

On one level I cannot advocate it as it is illegal. On another I cannot see the harm in punishing the peddlers of enormous credit to youngsters with the sole aim of drowning them in debt.

Putting on my Vulcan ears it seems a rational strategy where the rewards are very high and the risks very low.

The penalties involved with bankruptcy were specifically lowered as a manifesto pledge by this Government.

The judges have No interest in sending a 22yr old in enormous debt to jail.
If I had a son or daughter wanting to do their licenses I would find it difficult to dissuade them from using planned bankruptcy on any rational grounds.

If the morals of it cause you problems then that is a personal problem.

Cheers

WWW

[potkettleblack]

And if you don't fancy being made bankrupt or being accused of fraud then why not just renegotiate the debt. There are numerous companies and organisations around that will be more than happy to go to a bank and say that our wee wannabe can't repay you but is willing to offer 20p to the pound instead on a take it or leave it basis. No bad credit rating to suffer, debt wiped for good. Just don't expect to do business with that bank again in the future. Big companies have been doing it for years. All completely legitimate. Bargain me thinks.

[Grass strip basher]

"On another I cannot see the harm in punishing the peddlers of enormous credit to youngsters with the sole aim of drowning them in debt."
WWW do you really believe this is harming the banks???

It is future wanabees that are suffering like Chris-squires... can you not see the cause and effect of the attitude you are peddling?

If a relative was willing to lend you the money would you adopt the same attitude and say "morally its their problem not mine" when you don't pay back the money?? What about people taking responsibility for their actions??

Anyway enough on this topic... its getting boring... I'm off to steal a car... yeah it may be illegal but have you seen the cost of rail travel these days!!... what a scandal... oh if its you car sorry... but if you have an issue with the morality of me taking your car take it up with the train company... what a bunch of rip off artists... its not my fault I'm just trying to get from A to B... blame someone else they forced me to do it....
:rolleyes:

[clanger32]

Don't really want to wade into this one, but I do have a long held belief that too many younger types (sorry Chris!) are so determined to get into this right away that they'd rather get into £60k worth of debt for 11 years than actually work for it.

As a couple of others have said, it IS possible to raise the funds for yourself without taking a huge loan. I start my course in two weeks time and (touching wood) won't owe coming out the other end. I've done this by contracting within my sector, which whilst higher risk than FTE, also pays much better. If you go this route, two years would easily see you earn enough to pay for a full integrated course (if that's the route you want to take - it is for me, fWIW). Yet once again, people think it's easier to assume that "daddy" paid for it all. Stop looking for reasons why or how you CAN'T do it and start looking for ways to make it happen....it IS possible and contracting is one good way of doing it. What's so very wrong with building up a career [that you can fall back on if needs be] before going flying?

[Superpilot]

Ditto what Clanger has said. It is most certainly possible to fund it all yourself without any external assistance if you put your backside and mind to it – you don’t need to be gifted in anyway either. Unfortunately, as evident on here and at most FTOs, the bank is often the first thought that crosses a wannabes mind!

I have done it in less than a year. It’s been hard work and very exhausting I myself gave up a perm IT job last year this time and have since held two contract positions netting me a fantastic daily rate (the likes of which I won’t earn for another 10 years at BA! :E). It became evident very quickly how boring, unrewarding and unchallenging my old perm job was. The fact that it was not exciting or challenging in anyway meant I had become very lazy. It was only after starting contracting that I actually started to study for my ATPLs properly and began passing exams (3 exams to go at this time).

I will be starting training in September with enough funds to pay all the bills and a mortgage for 4 months with comfort. Had I not converted to contracting and accepted the new challenge I would be in no position to start.

[L A James]

In the worry that this thread is going off on a tangent... and perhaps getting a little personal (Grass - I admire your danglies but attacking one of the moderators is not a great idea unless you'd like to sign on one day and suddenly find you've been renamed "Merchant Banker" or something to that effect) I'd like to challenge Chris-squires on his original post.

Chris, I am currently waiting for a decision from HSBC bank regarding a 50k secured personal studies loan that I pitched for 3 weeks ago. I have a secure job that pays well-ish and, more importantly, I am qualified and experienced in my area so can return to it after flight training until I get an aviation job (as a way of making the repayments).

I am expecting an answer week commencing 20th August and, having read your post, I contacted my loans adviser. She told me that every branch has a different policy on PSLs and Wakefield, the branch that I applied to, are in the early stages of setting up a PSL process with Multiflight in Leeds. Nothing has changed. I guess this is similar to the one with OAT... basically they are more likely to lend you the money if you train at Multiflight. I am confident that, unless there is something wrong with my credit rating that I didn't know about, I will get the money. My presentation was well received and my feedback thus far has been positive.

Conclusion: if one door is shut in your face, try the next one. I have the relevant contact details if you need them.

WWW - I like your style, steal from the banks to fund the ambitions of us under-privelaged pilot wannabees.... you're the modern day Robin Hood. Having said that, I intend to repay every penny of the loan!

Regards,

L A

[L A James]

One further point to Clanger and Superpilot...

In 1998 the gov't scrapped university grants and introduced tuition fees, which means that one problem us younger types have (not sure if I still qualify as that at 27yrs old) is large student debts.

I graduated with £13k of debt, the cost of my degree. I have now paid that off, along with some other silly smaller debts (decided to buy myself a paramotor kit on credit - doh!) by working the doors of Leeds, which is not exactly easy on top of my 50hr p/w day job.

Based on the above, I'm not going to spend the next 3 - 5 yrs doing the same thing and then commence training in my early 30s (no offence to anyone at that age). If I qualifiy at 28 I'll have a better chance of employment than qualifying 5 years later.

[GusHoneybun]

Fer gawd sake people!

If you don't have the money to pay for your training, then get a job that pays well enough to save up. The world doesn't owe you a penny and the sooner you get that into your heads, the sooner you can crack on and stop trying to get up to your eyeballs in debt. But no, it's all gimme, gimme, gimme, I want it now!
Wouldn't suprise me if I read in a few years how you are wondering which self funded type rating you should do.

Some simple facts that you have probably overlooked.
1) You will not walk straight into a TP or jet after training. Expect at least 1 year of building up experience via instructing or GA before you get a sniff. And the pay is this area is shocking to say the least.
2) A 50 grand loan, over 7 years will cost you £750 a month, every month. A TP FO takes home a little over £1000 a month. So how on earth do you plan to live on £250 a month? Seriously, I would love to know the answer to this
3) Most people don't become pilots until their late 20's, early 30's. Why? it's becasue they build up a career that pays well enough to support their dream. In fact, more importantly it's something they can fall back on when they qualify and realise that their CV gets a direct clearance from chief pilots desk to the bin.


Listen to the advice on this thread, do your PPL and ATPL groundschool whilst still working. These are fairly low cost and can easily be absorbed. Worry about funding your CPL/FI/IR when you are in a position to start the course.

[bri1980]

Absolutely my point a few posts back.

I have no problem getting a personal loan for a rating-e.g. instructor rating, but to get a whole course-integrated or modular-on a loan is madness.

I haven't checked your figures Gus, but they seem to ring a few bells from when I looked into it a while ago-if you search my posts I did a breakdown for all to see some time ago which broadly supports what you say. If I can find it I will re-post it here later.

I am always on the lookout for that golden opportunity that will give me what I want (TP or jet) FAST! However, in the real world instructing will be my way in, and I'm happy with that. Being paid to fly...that's all I really want.

Bri

FOUND IT-I was looking at the Hubair Aviation course at the time, 0-fATPL without TR. Bear in mind this estimate is optimistic about your job prospects!

Ok, so you take out the loan for the course. Thats 85000Euros near as dam it.

Thats £58k more or less. You will need a few thousand for living expenses, flights to and from France/Belgium etc. Call it £60k conservatively.

Lets say that is repaid over 10 years (typical for professional studies loans). The you can bank on paying £600 a month close enough after qualifying.

Typical F/O starting salary-call it £25k. That is £1561 per month (after UK tax). My monthly ougoings-rent/council tax/utilities etc is £600 per month.

That leaves £361 per month for food, a car, new shoes etc.

It only just works. If you have to pay for the TR as well, it doesn't add up to me!

Am I missing something?

Bri

[L A James]

It's about priorities, the way I see it.

How many of you, who are advising against loans, are in debt by 100k - 200k + for a house? Very few people breeze through life without borrowing large amounts of money at some point.

Even on a 25yr mortgage you're paying upwards of £600 p/m before you've even considered bills.

It's easy to judge those of us who achieve our communal goal in a different way. Remember though, employers don't care how much money you owe to a bank (unless you're not paying it!)... but they do care how old you are when you commence your career. The sooner, the better in my opinion.

[clanger32]

L.A. James - two points I'd like to make in response. Yes, the government did scrap grants etc totally in 98(ish). Don't however make the mistake of thinking that they paid for everything for students just before you. The last year of fully funded higher education would have been about 1990. Certainly, when I graduated, I too came out with debts like yours. So I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "woe is me" line based on grad loans.

Secondly, I'm not going to hammer ANYONE for taking a loan to fund their dream, we all must do what we feel is best. Just sometimes people see "best" as being equal to "soonest". If you borrow £60k, over ten years, you will pay back a huge amount more than you borrowed, thanks to our good friend "compound interest". This is pure short termism. Why are you so averse to working for 1/2/3 years to fund your dream? It's almost certainly true that there is a balance point between being young enough to be highly employable and having enough funds to ease the pain of the loan. At 21 years old, working in a contract market for even five years wouldn't harm your job prospects, but WOULD make a material difference to your quality of life after the course. There's also a certain irony that in saying "(decided to buy myself a paramotor kit on credit - doh!)" you recognise the danger and stupidity of credit, but you're still happy to take on what amounts to a small mortgage.

Anwyay, I've droned on enough. Good luck to you. Each individuals circumstances are different and each must do what they see as best. However, I'd just seriously council that every £ of your own money you can put towards your future will be worth about £1.50 of debt. That and that too many kids rush out, stick mum and dads house on the line for a debt which they haven't really thought through how it will affect them

[Grass strip basher]

Gushoneybun :D :D :D
I will finish my training hopefully in about 6 months without a penny of debt... it is certainly possible if you are willing to roll up your sleaves and do a bit of hard graft... .patience is a virtue etc.... that would mean I have the option to get a mortgage if it takes my fancy (try getting one with £50-100k of unsecured debt).

L A James I'm not worried about challenging the views of the moderators on this website when it is to do with an issue such as encouraging young wanabees to default on debt. I wouldn't dream of challenging the likes of Scroggs/WWW etc when it comes to their knowledge world of commercial flying!!

[L A James]

All fair points Clanger.

I'm not crying out "woe is me" in an attempt to receive pity, I'm simply trying to justify my decision to fund training through a loan.

Despite the odd error (I have had my money worth out of the Pmotor though!) I am a financially sound guy and am no stranger to hard work. I will be keeping the peace at Leeds Carling festival for 3 x 18hr shifts in a row next weekend (24th - 27th) and will be straight back to my day job on 28th.

However, I am not prepared to do this for the next 5 years in order to fly RHS next to chris-squires (for example) who took out a loan, qualified earlier and got his captaincy while I was saving my coppers!

Credit, finance etc. is a big part of life and business in this day and age. If you are smart, you can turn it to your advantage.

L A

[Slopey]

However, I am not prepared to do this for the next 5 years in order to fly RHS next to chris-squires (for example) who took out a loan, qualified earlier and got his captaincy while I was saving my coppers!


But if you can't get the loan, then you'll have to. So hey ho.

The morgage comparison is irrelevant, as you then have an asset which can be resold to pay off the loan should you default. With a career loan which you are given but don't get the career at the end of it, there's nothing for the lender to get back - hence much higher risk - hence more difficult to get.

I'm 32, I'm looking at going commercial after doing the PPL 2 years ago - but there's no rush. I'll work and do it modular, and in another 3/4 years time, I'll have made more contacts in the industry, know more about flying, have more hours under my belt, and might be an even more mature personality and team player to have in the RHS of something which flies. Even if I get to fATPL and get a RHS job in 5 years time, I've still got another 20 odd years left career wise. That's a long time.

A mad desire to rush rush rush into the training doesn't necessarily mean you'll be any better placed to get that first job than you would be in 5 years time (after you've got involved in the flying community and know *exactly* who to speak to).

Like quite a few professions now, it's WHO you know, not WHAT you know which can make the difference, and fresh out of an integrated course at a young age, you're going to know nobody.

Just a thought...

[boogie-nicey]

Please take a look at the financial landscape around you and don't limit that to your own personal credit worthiness or rating. The banks are going through a squeeze to say the least and that will most definately impact not only on whether you get the loan but at what cost and yes a loan like any service has a 'price'. Many on here are blinkered by their training and that is indeed a fundamental part of this argument but must be balanced with your everyday commitments and needs.

Please think about your actions in the longer term as many on this thread have already advocated. This whole 'short cut' mentality isn't necessarily bad but can also prove rather more costly in the longer term.

Best of luck whatever you choose.

[bri1980]

Absolutely true.

FTOs will try to sell you expensive integrated courses with solgans like 'where you train makes a difference to where you go' etc.

Well, I have spoken to a few training captains in my time and a number of other pilots ranging from line captains to instructors. The message is usually the same: don't be taken in by it because it's not true at most airlines.

When you have unfrozen your licence that is especially true.

Pay for your licence by working now, because you sure as hell won't pay the loan off on a TP/instructor starting salary, and would even probably struggle on a jet salary.

Making the decision to become a pilot is life-changing: just make sure it changes your life in the right way!...see below:

As a stark reminder to everyone: I was approached by a Big Issue seller a few months ago who noticed the Seiko Chronograph on my wrist-he asked me if I was a pilot and I explained I was hoping to go commercial soon. He explained that he had done a similar thing and come financially unstuck with loans and credit.

In the words of the lottery...'it could be you'

B

[expedite08]

Again another excellent thread, should be made a sticky once more I think. Same as the ' Where are all the jobs' thread.

A lot of true and brave stories. Two threads here I think that anyone getting in to flying training should read.

What do you think WWW ?? Maybe rename it, 'Financial implicications of flight training' perhaps. Once again thanks to all who have contributed.

Im going down the instructor route, better chance of a job and far less risk.

[cfwake]

WWW

"On one level I cannot advocate it as it is illegal"

!!

Robbing cars is illegal too!

[L A James]

All good points guys but whether we're saving up or getting a loan your potential for success depends upon thorough planning.

Mr. Big Issue might have thrown his heart and ability into his training but maybe he had nothing to fall back on (in terms of vocational experience in another area or financial assets).

Although I don't own the house I live in, I do own one that I rent out and have accrued a decent amount of equity. If I fall on hard times, I can sell that. I am also qualified and experienced in purchasing, which I can go back whilst applying for pilot jobs.

We're all individuals following the same goal and we'll chose to do it in different ways, in spite of the advice we give each other.

Those of us that plan carefully for every eventuality have a better chance of succeeding. Those of us who jump in head first may end up selling the big issue (and without forward planning and a meticulous nature how good a pilot will they become anyway?!!)

I agree, this thread should be a sticky!

L A

[bri1980]

But yes L A James, you have planned and know what you risking. If it all goes t*ts up you will lose this and that, but you already know the risk.

Therefore in my view, you are going into this with your eyes open and risks known in the knowledge that you are prepared to risk what you have worked for and earned. That is absolutely the right attitude and shows that you have a bit of business sense as well: something airlines will appreciate when you finally get there: which with your pragmatic approach you probably will.

I think two of the key point here are those who:

a) try to get loans with little or nothing to fall back on
b) the sub-issue of those who get loans with the intention of defaulting.

If you have nothing to fall back on and can't get hired for some reason after completing, then the question people in category (a) should be asking is: where is the money going to come from?
Those in category (b) won't care one way or the other!

But it's the few short-sighted folk in (b) who have made it harder for everyone else I'm afraid.

Vote number 3 for a sticky-perhaps merged with the similar thread that's already a sticky!

Bri

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

cfwake wrote: WWW

"On one level I cannot advocate it as it is illegal"

!!

Robbing cars is illegal too!


A trifle trite I feel.

Stealing a car is the theft of a good for which another person has paid to own. Morally and legally this is a stark injustice.

Going bankrupt deliberately after accepting freely offered credit is less stark.

The credit was extended purely with a view to extracting profit. In most developed cultures society places a level of responsibility on lenders not to lend recklessly. To do so is to drag the ignorant, unfortunate or naive into unmangeable indebtness from which they may never escape and which might result in family breakdown, crime and suicide.

To offer a 19 yr old a credit card with a £10k limit, an 'any purpose' £10k loan and a £2k overdraft is entirely common. Even if they are a student. On a crap course at a crap 'university'.

To push your credit a bit and borrow enough to pay for a modular CPL/IR is only a small step beyond normal.

One could take the view that the willing lenders are totally dispensing with any obligation to lend responsibly.

One could then take the view that the willing borrowers could dispense with their obligation to re-pay responsibly.

The two wrongs a fairly evenly balanced.

The law of course is written by the friends of the lenders and is unequivocal. Planned bankruptcy is illegal and the penalties are harsh and include lengthy prison terms.

In reality 99.9% of people will walk away scot free and there isn't a judge in the land who'd send a teenager to jail for fraudulent bankruptcy even if they privately thought they'd done it. Few judges or magistrates have much sympathy for the loan consolidation firms or the big name banks.

I welcome anybody expressing any opinion on this subject and I feel its open and full discussion is to the benefit of all. So wade in.

Cheers

WWW

[bluepeely]

The people who are stating "why not just go out and get a well paid job" have they got a mortgage?? I've got a well paid job but a mortgage and family and there no chance i could afford it all without re-mortgaging. Living with mum n dad i'd piss it though

[Canadapilot]

Just as a recent update to this ongoing thread...does anyone know of lenders who offer small unsecured loans?! (small as in about 15k). I'm paying for my professional training in Canada off my own back, yet will need money once i'm back later this year to convert to JAA. Seems like traditional lenders who offer money for professional development do not view pilot training as worthy enough!

[bri1980]

Not sure about small lenders but I'm told Northern Rock are cheap. Not looked into it though!

B

[Re-Heat]

Stealing a car is the theft of a good for which another person has paid to own. Morally and legally this is a stark injustice.
Stealing money by planned bankruptcy is theft of a good for which another person, the shareholder, has paid to own. Morally and legally this is stark injustice, and you cannot justify it by the mere fact that the loss is pooled among many shareholders, or arrives back at the individual via the holdings of their pension plan.

Corporates do not own themselves, people do.

Can we no longer persue this utterly foolish suggestion of planned bankruptcy.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I know wannabes that have done it.

It works.

And its of wider interest to all Wannabes because the brutal fact is that they are up against these people in the job market. As these people have managed to dispense with their £60k training costs they are able to work for free or pay for their type ratings or both.

Honest Joe Wannabe would do well to understand this.

Cheers

WWW

[portsharbourflyer]

Bluepeely,

Loads of us have postponed homeownership for the sake of funding pilot training, you have to accept you can't have everything in life, furthermore if you knew that flying was your ambition why did you laden yourself with commitment that you knew would hinder your progress?

Also there are plenty of us who managed to fund this without "living at home with the parents" (although not debt free my debts are only in the region of 12000, due to the fact that ppl, hour build and distance learning ATPL were all completed while still working). Its a level that is manageable such that I was able to become a full time instructor this summer.

If you have a mortgage and are in a position to remortgage then it probably one of the best ways to finance the training, at least you still have an asset to go with the debt accrued though the flight training, in which case you are in a better situation than most.

[Token Bird]

The people who are stating "why not just go out and get a well paid job" have they got a mortgage??
I'd just like to point out that those of us who do not have mortgages have this thing called rent instead. If we stopped paying it we too would find ourselves with nowhere to live. Please do not assume that people without their own homes do not have responsibilities too.

[bri1980]

Good point Token Bird! My rent is however, cheaper than I would pay on a mortgage had I bought the place. Don't tell my landlord that though!

But yes, my bills etc and rent come to about £650-700 a month. So yes, we all have responsibilities!

B

[boogie-nicey]

So the figures thus far from a neutral point of view stack up (roughly) at something like £600 for rent/mortgage, training loans £450-ish (very rough estimate dependant on individual circumstances). BUT it doesn't end there because first off those figures above are somewhat conservative and doesn't take into account 'living' money, whether you like it or not (i.e. fooling yourself into thinking "ah I don't need to worry about that") it does exist and you will definately need to budget for it. If you have a family or even a relationship then you'll to allocate something but that simply takes the total North of £1000 and that's just to break even!

People are still planning with a far too rosy picture of "it'll be alright on the night" notion, it might seem like it from this side of the fence but I doubt it.
Even if you do get a job a huge chunk of your salary will dissipitate to repay and once again that's not including all the demands of a family or girl/boy friends.

If you're not careful and realistic you can very easily find yourself in a spot of poo-poo. I'm not having a go at anyone in particular just trying to keep people frame of mind clearly focused on realistic expectations.

[bri1980]

See post 55 of this thread for the figures I posted. They are conservative from the point of view that they don't include living money etc. and also they assume that you will get a job: a big assumption.

Although my figures presented there just add-up and say you might be able to pay off the loan and live, it's close enough that I wouldn't do it-a small interest rate increase (as recently) and you'd be stuffed.

Another point for you there-could one afford a 2%-5% increase in interest rates over the repayment period? Don't forget that rates are presently on the increase (though slowing): increased interest rates on loans and mortgages is real and has to be planned for.

[Scoobster]

This is just my 2 pence worth..

I am currently at the stage where I am trying to save my a**e off to get every penny to pursue this long awaited dream. It is easy for all of us to say that 'I have wanted this ever since I was a child' or 'flying is my dream'. I am in a well paid job with a top IT consultancy and will be looking to make the move into the 'contract' market asap.

It phases me when youngsters who are thinking of putting up their parents house as security or taking out extensive credit card, loan debts without asking the more humbling and realistic quesiton of 'How long will my dream last if I dont get a job at the end and have 70k to pay back'.

Set yourself realistic expectations and manage the risk accordingly. I am 27 and indeed working for another 2-3 years to save the money will put me in my early 30s. Will it do me any harm? Probably not, as I hope to have no debt at the end of it and make sufficient contacts.

Flying is more than 'pushing buttons', The Big Academies are money making machines and if a smaller FBO is offering you the same opportunity then it makes you think....

Fact: Credit is big business and a part of life, it is how you manage Credit that is 'critical'.

Fact: Credit can 'ruin' you especially if you have no backup option.

Having graduated from University and with racked up credit cards, SL's and other expenses (which have been all cleared) it quickly became apparant that I certainly have no desire to be paying back over a 10 year period.

But I went through the university process to ensure I have sufficient means to pay back and a stable career, if I dont end up in flying... It is still a 'realistic dream'..

Scoobster

[rob152]

Unfortunately for me and due to bad decision making in my younger more "rebelious" days I have a useless credit rating which basically rules me out of any substantial borrowing. The really annoying thing is that my total debt is approximately 3k, very little in comparison to alot of people and I hope to have this cleared by xmas time.

In the mean time I'm planning on finishing my PPL before the end of the year, ideally by the end of the summer but certainly by the end of the year. This will enable me to embark on the ground school, I work in a place where the manuals will be freely available to me so I have to take advantage.

My salary is not very good at the moment but I have calculated and re-calculated and I cant see why it's impossible to do the training modular and "pay as I go". I would like and am trying to arrange a cdl which would pay for the hour building, whilst doing this there is no reason why I cant save the amount needed for the CPL, even on a relatively low salary. The problem might be attaining the funds for the IR for which I will have to think of a plan. Even if the cdl doesn't come off then I'll just have to pay as I go there too, I already have 54 hrs (not really alot I know) but its a 3rd if the way there.

[bri1980]

A related thread that may be of interest...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=290949

[SlingsbyT67M]

Ok, so i have just managed to secure myself an unsecured loan for 35K to complete my modular training. Now I know this is probably not enough and yes I know I am getting myself into serious debt but hey I am 38 and just don't have the time to save tens of thousands of pounds. So remember is it possible, yes it is!! just make sure that you have a good credit rating an outstanding business case and a fantastic loans manager - and anything is possible. Lets hope getting that first job is this achievable!

[bri1980]

Not sure about small lenders but I'm told Northern Rock are cheap. Not looked into it though!

How quickly things change!

[Grass strip basher]

Agreed... there a fair chance that the cost of these loans (if they are even still available) could go up significantly.... a run on a UK bank.... very very serious events that will have big knock on impacts.... I would think very very carefully about getting into debt at what could be the top of the economic cycle... house prices now starting to fall as well... :{:(

[AlphaMale]

house prices now starting to fall

Where :confused: ... I purchased my apartment in July '07 and a neighbour has sold an apartment that is pretty much identical for £10k more 2 weeks ago? I know I had a good deal (£5k cheaper due to not using an agent) but that still shows a £5k increase in 4 months. Slowing down it might be but no signs of dropping in value.

Back on subject ... Do you think Northern Rock will offer some good loans in a couple of months time to try and temp their customers back? I'd be happy to take an unsecured loan with them to pay for my training if it was cheap enough :cool:

[camel toe]

At the mo they are offering rather good rates for Fixed Deposits (I just got well over 6.5% market rate) not sure how long it will take for them to get square enough on the books before they start trying to sell loans.

Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande?"

[m500dpp]

Back on subject ... Do you think Northern Rock will offer some good loans in a couple of months time to try and temp their customers back? I'd be happy to take an unsecured loan with them to pay for my training if it was cheap enough :cool:

No chance with all the money people are taking out they wont have any to lend anyone!!!!

As an HSBC employee my only regret is that such large organisations are driven by statistics rather than looking at each individual case.

Car insurance is the same, if an insurer has 3 Ford Mondeos (for example) and no claims, you get a low premium, if one claims then the stats show that the claims rate for that car is 33%, so up goes the premium, approach another company with only one car and no claims =- cheap premium again.

Would be much better if each case was dealt with on its merits rather than the trend in the marketplace, which will be influenced by the few who declare themselves bankrupt - now at the expense of the many.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Getting loans for training is going to get a LOT harder and more expensive.

House prices are falling and probably will fall substantially and this removes the source of funding for at least half of all Wannabes (either releasing their own or parents equity).

There may be fewer training in the near future or possibly just more on the Modular path.

However, the real story is the looming recession and it effects on airline hiring. Airlines tend to lead in and out of recessions.

The music *may* be about to stop...

WWW

[boogie-nicey]

WWW: In that case I guess it'd be club flying for alot of us then :}

Or of to far flung lands to work for peanuts.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yep, except you don't have to leave this country if you want to fly for peanuts.

WWW

[AlphaMale]

There may be fewer training in the near future or possibly just more on the Modular path.

However, the real story is the looming recession and it effects on airline hiring. Airlines tend to lead in and out of recessions.

So do I train or not? :bored: Less competition the better I say ... But competition for what if the airlines don't take anybody on in 4/5 years time? :ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

That's the problem.

The ideal is to train at the end of the downturn so as to be perfectly placed for the upturn when hiring begins again.

The trick is to be able to predict either the up or the down turns.

I think this is the downturn. I may be wrong.

WWW

[AlphaMale]

If I save for 3 hard years I'll have all the £'s and $'s to do my 0-fATPL without having to look into CDL's or personal loans. (looking at doing an 18 months stint as a CFII in the states) so in 4 or 5 years time I should have the licences / hours / life experience (I'll be 30) but not too old.

How can I predict the industry in 5 years time? I forget the cycle is it 5 years or 7 years? :confused:

If however I need to start training today then an unsecured loan and a CDL might just be what I need. But if the market is dry in 2 years time then I'll have a big debt and no flying job. :(

[dartagnan]

don't forget, normal salary is around 2000 euro/month (this is what I got), and many airlines ask us to pay for our type rating.
you don't go very far with peanuts.

[John Keynes]

Hello all.

Just before the summer I was seriously considering embarking on the integrated ATPL route. In light of the current credit crunch, I’m starting to panic about what impact it will have on my chances of getting a job at the end of the 14-16 months of training (assuming one starts in the new year).

Sorry if I’ve pinpointed you WWW, but you’re a man in the know and for the most part give out (in my opinion) honest and sound advice. I was wondering if you would be prepared to enlighten us with your thoughts (even a few lines) on how the current events are likely to impact flight training/hiring. If the aviation industry is teetering on the brink of a recession it is nothing short of scary just how precise and expected it has come.

Obviously anyone’s thoughts are more than welcome (knudge knudge Scroggs).

All the best.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I've no more insight or understanding than the next man in the street though I do have an interest in economics and I think I do understand the airline recruitment market. I could be right or I could equally be wrong, but, here goes.

I think that around half of people putting themselves through flight training use either parents or their own housing equity to fund it. I think that nominal house prices will now not rise and indeed will probably decrease by at least 10% over the next year. This would turn off the tap for 50% of flying training funding. Sure some people (or parents) still have substantial reserves in their houses but even so, they will be much more reluctant to release and spend what they have without the comfort that the house 'has gone up' another £50k this year.

Banks will also be much more reluctant to extend CDLs and other unsecured loans.

Therefore the effect will be reduced numbers applying to flying training schools and an increased interest in the cheaper Modular route.

This may be countered to a small degree by the numbers of people who lose their job via redundancy in the recession that will accompany the house price crash. Many people use redundancy as a spur to finally pursue that dream of a flying career and the redundancy payment provides the means. In nearly all cases these people will be the older wannabes.

As for the airlines and their hiring, well that is difficult. If there is a recession then there are dozens of barely profitable airlines or start ups with limited funding who would all go to the wall. It is a European market and so the likes of Alitalia going bust or SAS going into administration directly impacts the UK wannabe market and its impossible to make predictions about the 300 or so airlines operating in the UK. Safe to say though that any recession will see at least a total freeze in hiring. With the main Integrated schools of the UK alone pumping out 400 new pilots a year then backlogs are quickly generated.

Lessons from history can be useful. In 1989 the UK was booming much in the way it was in 2006. Airline hiring was going full pelt and chief pilots were scouring the nations flying schools looking for anyone with a CPL and a pulse (not quite but it was getting a bit desperate). Then the Gulf War happened and there was a recession in the UK and oil prices rocketed.

By late 1990 Air Europe and Dan Air had gone bust (please, I know this is a simplification but we don't have the room nor Wannabes the interest to go into detail) and pilots were forming queues at soup kitchens. Many left these shores to new opportunities in the far east and later the middle east. Things were really grim and it took until 1996 for things to get back to an even keel.

Sept 11th proved to be a mini version of this but was greatly diminished in its impact by the breakneck expansion of the low cost airlines in the years following it. Such expansion is still in play but it is slowing and will slow to a trickle within the next 4(ish) years.

Making a decision to train is ALWAYS a gamble and carries risk. A lot depends on your personal circumstances. There have certainly been worse times than to go and do your training. There have certainly been better times.

Good luck,

WWW

[camel toe]

It is possible my good man, you just can't live like a rockstar while saving. That's not to say you have to live like a loner, I have a social life (girlfriends cost money), play hockey a couple of times a week (match fees) and am able to save up just fine and dandy.

Maybe the Stella Monkey is stealing all your money while you sleep on a Saturday night, sometimes he visits me too and gets away with a bit.

Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande"

[v6g]

lovezzin said:Ok, for all of you talking about saving up for 2, 3 or even upto 5 years and then starting your training (supposing you are in an averagely paid job) how is it possible to save £55K+ in that time??
lovezzin - As an engineer you should consider this route:- work for 2 years in the UK, earning & saving. By then you'll have sufficient education & experience to go to Canada as a "temporary skilled worker". Once here, whilst working full-time in engineering for another 2 years, do all your licenses and ratings, most of the training expenses will be tax-deductable, you'll be looking at a ball-park figure of £15000 when the tax-rebate is included. Spreading all the training over a couple of years whilst working full-time will be hard but certainly not impossible. Then return to the UK to convert to JAA (you could prepare for the writtens via distance learning whilst keeping your job in Canada), rough cost of conversion will be £10-12,000 and take 6-12 months. That way the only loan you'll have to take will be the last £10-12k and even that will be unlikely if you're working as an engineer out here.
Time taken: 4-5 years
Total debt: minimal to nothing
-------------------------
Edited to add: Actually, my comments above are probably mis-leading. I wouldn't advocate the Canada-UK approach on price alone since the exchange rate is currently not in your favour and the additional cost of converting back to JAA would put you on a level cost with going modular entirely in the UK. The main advantage of training in Canada is the ease with which to train whilst working full-time and hence the tax-deduction for the training (combined with relatively cheap cost-of-living and higher engineering salaries than the UK).

[AlphaMale]

Ok, for all of you talking about saving up for 2, 3 or even upto 5 years and then starting your training how is it possible to save £55K+ in that time??

Who said about saving for an integrated course in 2 years?

I agree to the principle, but its not possible.

£35k in 5 years might be though?

I am only 21, I atteneded an £18,000+ Boarding school along with 2 my sisters. where I also worked hard and got excellent A-Levels to go to a TOP 10 univeristy to study Aeronautical Engineering. Worked my ass of even harder whilst there so that when i graduate i can atleast work in aerospace somehow, whilst thinking engineering is high status and well-paid. Boy was i wrong.

Boarding school educated and have excellent A level the airlines probably won't look at unless you apply for a Flybe sponsorship etc.

You went to a TOP 10 University like most of us who achieved decent grades.

You're an engineer which does/can pay well in contracting. I know many of them - £50k+ per year isn't uncommon.

The salary is on the higher end of grad engineering jobs of just over £23K. I cant see it rising much in 5 years...so how is it possible to save this money you speak of after the cost of life?

As said above if you want to live the life of a rock star then it'll be hard work, but it's possible to live off much less than £23k but it takes determination. You take home almost £1,500 a month ... what do you spend this on?

... I have tried my best to cut my costs right down;


I have cancelled my £55 a month Gym fee.
I have lowered my mobile phone bills by not using my mobile too often.
I sold my car (Misti Evo VII 360) that was depreciating and guzzled fuel (12 to 16 mpg) for a cheap economical car (Seat Ibiza) that I'll probably sell for the same price I purchased it at.
I hardly ever eat out.
A big plus is I'm pretty much T-total so no weekend benders with the friends and blowing £80 / £120 on a Sat night.


someone also mentioned to a 21 year old about contracting...how is a 21 year old gonna go into contracting with ****-all experience/qualifications?

It takes time, I'm 25 and 26 is only around the corner for me but I heard tonight I 'might' be able to get a contacting job in the very near future paying £24 per hour ~ £2,800 a month take home.

I only have one thing in my sights! ;) ... If I have to sell my apartment then so be it.

Don't want to be mean but if your parents paid £18k for you to attend a boarding school they should ask for their money back - 'upto' is two words, and so is 'atleast', not to mention your grammar and spelling :E

[bri1980]

I have cancelled my £55 a month Gym fee.
I have lowered my mobile phone bills by not using my mobile too often.
I sold my car (Misti Evo VII 360) that was depreciating and guzzled fuel (12 to 16 mpg) for a cheap economical car (Seat Ibiza) that I'll probably sell for the same price I purchased it at.
I hardly ever eat out.
A big plus is I'm pretty much T-total so no weekend benders with the friends and blowing £80 / £120 on a Sat night.
Exactly. This is how one saves enough to go pilot training. When you get your IR no doubt there will be a great sense of relief and achievement-and you will be able to look forward to the following month because you don't have to pay back a huge loan (or maybe any loan at all!)

Bri

[Grass strip basher]

Here's your evidence house prices are falling from the Royal Institute of Chartered surveyors... http://www.rics.org/Property/Residentialproperty/Residentialpropertymarket/hms_august2007_130907.htm

Also you might have noticed the City has been hit very very hard by the current bank crisis/liquidity crunch (I have had the joy of sitting in the middle of it).... there will be big lay-offs by banks and limited bonuses that have supported the London housing market over the past 3-4 years.

I think WWW is right that we are probably at or slightly past the peak in pilot recruiting in this cycle

[scroggs]

While it's quite likely that the peak of pilot recruiting for this cycle has been passed - and there is considerable evidence to support this - I'd be very wary of taking financial advice from pilots! Our record of economic analysis isn't the best. Not that bona fide financial analysts have a much better one, however, but most pilots' (or bus drivers' or teachers' or whomever else's) financial advice is based on gut feeling, anecdotes and insignificant statistics.

That said, here goes: the financial situation the UK and Europe finds itself in right now has few similarities with previous crises often used as circumstantial evidence for predictions of a recession/housing crash/stockmarket meltdown. While there is little doubt that confidence in and within the banking sector has taken a knock because of the lack of liquidity (ie free cash available for lending) as the major banks rein in their lending to the more risk-taking ('sub-prime') lenders, there are no signs of the wide-scale unemployment and high interest rates that have precipitated and exacerbated major national and international economic slowdowns in the past.

In the short term it will become a bit more expensive and a little more difficult to borrow money, both for corporate and individual customers. I would anticipate that, within six weeks or so, central bank interest rates in the US, UK and Europe will have eased and this will prick the bubble of interbank lending rates, with consequential easing of the consumer financial markets. Some of the less-salubrious financial institutions will undoubtedly fail - some already have - but the vast majority of the banking sector will be relatively untouched. Confidence will return, though perhaps not as quickly as some of you would like.

If you continually cry 'wolf', eventually you might be right - but no-one will believe you. I don't believe it now. That's not an excuse for irrational and reckless borrowing - you are responsible for your own financial health, and you will not be well-served by insolvency or major financial worries - but I suspect, as I have many times before, that this is a minor hiccup in a broadly very healthy economic period.

The property market discussion is not appropriate for these pages.

Scroggs

[dartagnan]

for the gym, you can get free gym in the park.
about mobile phone, don't take any and call with prepaid call cards and use free library internet.
about car, use the bus & trains or hitchhiking.
don't eat out.

[flyboy1818]

CTC also means reduced mobility, do you really want to fly the same type of aircraft, live in the same town and work for the same airline for seven years? Its a person choice. I don't believe in spending money before I recieve it unless I have too. Coming on 200 hours now and near to CPL, no flight training debt! Its been hard work, but its been the best way in my experience. I avoid debt like the plague, thats why the jewish are so rich right? I would rather do things slowly taking a year or so more than spend the rest of my life paying back intrest and debt to fuel the evil greed of the city broker. As an ex resident of the square mile I have to say that I'm really loving the current banking crisis. I think these idiots deserve everything thats coming at them, I'm also looking forward to a future decline in property prices as prices are immorally high at current with too many buy to let landlords getting greedy. I work for a company that deals with overseas stuff so I'm not loosing my job anytime soon either.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

House prices in England are coming down sharply. I have several offers on houses at <88% asking price and each week one of them concedes defeat and accepts. The huge cash machine of Mortgage Equity Withdrawal has gone unserviceable and as a consequence the high street will be in full blown crisis by Christmas. There is plenty of sub prime in the UK but its called Self Certification Mortgages (Lie to Buy) and Buy To Let Mortgages.

House Price Inflation is over. And there is nobody in any capacity saying that it isn't. The debate now is between stagnation and crash.

Whichever pans out doesn't really matter because either means that the Bank Of Mum & Dad has no new capital to lend to the kids. Bookings on Integrated courses will dip I think within the next 6 months.

As ever, as I and other have said, many many times before, Timing is everything in this industry. Get it right and you might walk into a jet job a quick command and Nirvana. Get it wrong and you might never get a job, resent the industry and bitterly spend decades paying back the debt.

So think hard and try to put an old head on those young shoulders as you do so.

Cheers

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh, and having lived near this red hot property market which EVERYBODY said couldn't ever go down its interesting to see my predictions from last year come true for the Dublin property market..

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff247/Geckko/MailIPW2.jpg

London this time next year?

Just where that would leave the airline hiring market is easy to guess :(

WWW

[bri1980]

its probably a lot easier to simply join CTC. Its integrated....and they place you with an airline upon graduation, if not you are put into their hold pool for a short time.


I think this is a somewhat delusional statement. Easy to get in to CTC-HA! I think not! I went to University and got a PhD, but I don't underestimate the competition, they are dam good! CTC only need a small (no, tiny) minority of the people they interview so the chances, frankly aren't good. CTC is not an easy option to get in to.

As for placing you in a hold pool-yes they do. Don't imagine for one moment that if airlines start laying pilots off you will get a job just because you went through CTC. You could find yourself out in the cold if the worst happened and a recession were to hit the industry. You are also responsible for paying the bond: so that would be out in the cold, with no job and £60k debt!

The statement I quoted above shows something of a rose tinted view of CTC which is not justified. Nothing in aviation job markets is certain!

B

[Re-Heat]

What will happen?
Well, this an extract from some research out last week (MS, 11/09): note codes are stock or dodgy abbreviations, not the usual airline codes:
We downgrade AF-KLM from O to E and on LUFT from O to U. We believe the European network airlines will face increasing revenue headwinds in 2008 — revenue trends are softening on long-haul routes relative to 2005-06, while capacity growth is increasing and business cycle demand is peaking, in our view.

Our F2008-09 forecasts now generally sit 5-10% below consensus. History shows that negative EPS revisions are very damaging to airline share price
performance.

Yield momentum is the key share price driver. Even a stable/flat yield trend in the past has not been enough. Management teams are going to be under growing pressure to drive profitability through cost-saving initiatives — we calculate that several key cost items would need to fall by at least 10% to help keep EBIT estimates at our current base-case levels.

Capacity growth and business cycle are important. As we observed with the introduction of RYA and EZJ to the short-haul market in the late 90s, industry yields collapsed almost 25% in 1995-2000 — we believe there could be a similar effect on long haul in the medium term. In addition, the incremental demand from corporates (investment banks in particular, to which airline shares are highly correlated) will at best be flat next year, in our view.

Within our Cautious sector view, we believe LCCs show a more compelling risk-reward balance. AF-KLM has delivered the most promising revenue
trends, combined with a clear path to cost reduction (€1.4 billion programme) defined through to 2010. Lufthansa has opportunities but exposure to new
long-haul entrants such as Emirates keeps us wary. BA has Terminal 5, but we believe opposing amounts of revenue risk from ‘Open Skies’ and changes to the competitive landscape at Heathrow offset this.
Of course, this does not directly translate to pilot recruitment - however - the effect on people's ability to finance the training, as mentioned by WWW, could be substantial.

The basis of the current problems are a number of lax lending standards in the US, which have meant that banks are not sure what other banks are holding, and therefore are overly-cautious to lend to each other. This translates to tighter lending standards for all, including in the UK and Europe, which will probably make it harder to get a loan, particularly where there is risk of not being able to repay that loan (due to there being no jobs).
Currently, I doubt this will get better for another 3-6 months from my viewpoint in the City.

matt85 - gambling winnings are tax-free: not the interest income you earn on the deposit.

CTC also means reduced mobility, do you really want to fly the same type of aircraft, live in the same town and work for the same airline for seven years? Its a person choice. I don't believe in spending money before I recieve it unless I have too.
Most people will take that job, than making life hard for themselves unnecessaily.

I work for a company that deals with overseas stuff so I'm not loosing my job anytime soon either.
And how would that protect you? Not at all is the answer.

[Re-Heat]

PS: I won't clog up the tread explaining the financial abbreviations - if not clear on google, pm me.

[AlphaMale]

And...you got a Phd....in what?....LOL

Why is this funny? :confused:

Maybe saving for 5 years to do your training would be good for you, gives you time to mature a little :suspect:

[AlphaMale]

Was I the one who came on here telling people what type of school I went to and the cost to do so? You're the one telling us how good your A level results are and you're the one telling us how you went to a top 10 Uni. :rolleyes:

If you didn't mean LOL why did you type LOL :\

I am only monitoring this thread as I'd like to take in as much advise on saving the cash for training - Not to read your silly posts.

End of.

[boogie-nicey]

AlphaMale has raised some good points with regards to Lovezzin's last few posts.

It most certianly isn't the viewpoint expressed but the prevailing attitude of posters. To simply throw something in someone's face and then contend that this post means nothing is neither here nor there, it's an easy cop out. Lovezzin please think before you make such throw-away comments like the above before proceeding to denigrate AlphaMale too.

There's no need for that kind of approach. Come on dude keep it above board :ok::ok:

[bri1980]

And...you got a Phd....in what?....LOL


Maths.


I was 25 when I got the PhD, and the point about it is that I now have a job that will eventually pay for my training because of it. It also gave me a lot of confidence and maturity that comes in very, very useful!


It was the way you declared your Phd in a tone of being superior


You were the one who stated his A-level results and the fact you went to a Top 10 university. I just wanted to show you that no matter how clever and well-qualified you think you are, there is always someone smarter and better qualified ahead of you in the Selection queue for things like CTC: and that goes for me too!

As for the 'LOL', do we really need to dissect posts in so much detail? Back to financial matters now hopefully.

B

[scroggs]

As Re-Heat has quoted, industry expectations are for a severe reduction in growth in revenue and profits over the next several months. Cost control is becoming the watch-word as the only way to keep everything going the right way. Expansion is (temporarily) a dirty word, and capacity increases are not wanted. Investment is difficult when there's no money to borrow, and it's likely that even the low-cost sector will be a little more cautious than usual for the next few months.

That all translates into a probably rapid contraction in pilot hiring rates for the next year or so. Note that doesn't mean it'll stop; Ryan and easy have a lot of new aircraft coming, and they can't earn money if they don't fly. Earning some money is better than earning none, so it's likely that there will be no change to delivery rates and thus hiring will continue with these airlines. They'll probably have to accept sharply reduced margins for a little while, however.

The charter, scheduled medium- and long-haul carriers are likely to have a harder time of it and will probably stop all recruiting for a while. There are no major expansive aircraft orders in place for delivery in the short-term in any case, so this isn't a major shift in policy. My own airline deferred orders and sharply slowed recruiting early this year; others have followed suit. This means that the flow of pilots from the locos to the longhaul carriers will (temporarily) stop, which will have a knock-on effect for take-up of newly-qualified pilots.

I would prepare for a quiet winter on the recruiting front.

Scroggs

PS: WWW, I appreciate you have strong views on the property market, and have been forecasting a crash seemingly ever since you left Spain, but I think you're wrong - and there are many, many differences between the Irish market (which has been in recession for a year, and has a vast over-supply of stock) and the UK one. I'd be happy to discuss it over a beer, and take a few quid on a little bet if you like! ;)

[redsnail]

Netjets Europe is still expanding. Rough estimates for next year's hiring is about 200. Cadet scheme is up and running.

[Re-Heat]

While Warren Buffet typically knows something we don't (the owner of NetJets), the main market for NetJets is the banking and financing community. Whereas others may be using NetJets to avoid the Heathrow hellhole, or get places more directly, I would not view the fact that they see are requirement and are recruiting now as a harbinger of the future...

What this discussion brings to the table is the importance of the backup plan. It doesn't matter whether it is used or not, but it makes eminent sense to try as hard as possible at school/uni to develop the best alternative career possible.

The dream just might not happen whatever your flying ability: it takes maturity to realise that.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I do have firm views on the property market but I bought as recently as 19 months ago so I've only been properly bearish since then. I've since sold and gone into rental so I have a vested interest in believing a property crash to be occurring.

Latest figures show a 70 per cent fall in the amount being borrowed from UK building societies for home loans.

They lent £656million in August 2007, versus £2,190m in August 2006...

This could be the worst news any Wannabe could receive. We may in fact be entering a 1990 scenario now. I do hope not.

Good luck,

WWW

[dartagnan]

you mean 1819???

http://www.thehistorybox.com/ny_city/images/articlePIC2.jpg Many state banks collapse, and enormous amounts of Western real estate are foreclosed by the Bank of the United States. But there are more fundamental causes for the crisis, of which the credit collapse is only a consequence and a symptom. The swollen demand for the products of American farms and factories, resulting from scant supply of such goods at home and abroad during the war, is now satisfied: the market is declining. As prices fall, money becomes difficult to come by, but the habit of borrowing, formed in the expansive years, cannot be shaken. Those who insist on a return to specie-hard money, are seen as turning the clock back.