British Airways Staff Travel upgrades..

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I have just witnessed a BMI Captain on a BA aircraft get bent out of shape because BA staff were upgraded in front of him. He maintained that he had 'J' class priority and he should be upgraded in front of BA staff with same priority although later date of joining.. .. .Do BA give any other airline staff upgrade priority and do they actually have the same priority a employed staff?. .. .If I was BA staff I think I would be a bit pi$$ed off with that deal...

[Shadowpurser]

As a purser for B.A.on 737's at LGW it comes down to me sometimes who gets "china or plastic". Now I'm sure every airline you looks after their "own" first so I would look down the list and look for "B.A. Staff" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> and give them the good news first - after that other staff would be brought up to the dizzy heights of club. I'm also sure that dispatchers look at it the same way too. If that captain said that to me no my flight I'd remind him that staff travel on any airline is A PERK - NOT A RIGHT and that he's lucky to have the seats he's been given. Also worth remembering everyone that upgrades can also happen "after takeoff" as your in charge crew member may have been too busy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> dealing with other matters to decide who "gets upgraded". What I can tell you is that "I'm the king of the world" attitude on my flight would ensure you'd be sitting in the rear of the aircraft for the whole way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . . .. .Hope that answers your questions and gives everyone something to think about.. .. .Incidently I also like to upgrade our Executive club card holders as well if possible not just staff as they are the ones paying "propper money" on a regular basis, and I for one want them coming back more often.

[Rumours everywhere]

I'd be very surpised if he did have upgrade priority, unless he was on duty travel (unlikely I would think). He may be using concessions of his 'other half' who may well have upgrade priority (he would then get it)... however, if there are 2 staff with the same priority, it doesn't matter who you work for, it is then date of joining that counts.. .. .BA do have a system of 2 sets of priority codes. One for the onload priority, and one for the cabin priority. You could be first on, but last to get an upgrade etc.

[snooky]

I would suggest that you read FCO's, cos you're being very naughty.

[Hand Solo]

From my hazy memory of staff travel priorites I think that 'other airline staff' is pretty much rock bottom of list, so is very unlikely to attract a J class. Methinks he was either trying it on or has delusions of grandeur!

[Final 3 Greens]

Shadowpurser. .. .Stumbled across this thread, but just a thank you to you and your colleagues: I did some work for BA last year involving heavy duty travel and was made to feel just like a "commercial", not "mere" hired help.. .. .This makes a big difference on long haul flts and I would like to think it helped me to do a better job.. .. .Hope things are going better now - very pleased to see the share price recovering and the north atlantic flights being reinstated - I will always be very fond of BA and the time spent in the Compass and Jubilee.... .. .F3G <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Shadowpurser]

Don't recall seeing an FCO saying captains should be upgraded Snooky. But if I have missed anything please do let me know as I've got no problem admitting I'm in the wrong.. .. .Now I have my little "In-flight bible" here and bottom of the list is SUBLOAD OTHER AIRLINE STAFF 100/90/75/50 (in that order).. .. .Now if he's on duty that's a "different gravy", most airlines seem to have their duty staff put in better cabins, or on priority upgrade, which is fair enough.. .. .Upgrades when on personal travel will generally be down to the check-in or the dispatcher, depending on who you are (e.g. B.A. pilots get 1 free firm a year which attracts an upgrade to club on B.A. services)or who you know (e.g. opperating crews friends and family). If you've not had your seat row changed to single figures by then, your last chance is the in charge crew member (Me). . .. .If you are entitled to an upgrade and look into any staff travel terms and conditions you'll probably find a phrase saying something like "conditions at the time of travel permitting" which means if there's room you be upgraded. . .. .Personally I am glad of a seat in any class considering the price we pay. My girlfriend is stuck in SIN at the moment and being an F.O. she will not be complaining about a seat in World Traveller or a jump seat even though she does attract the "upgrade" priority, as staff have been stuck there for 3 days and flights are weight restricted.. .. .Lastly 3 greens it's always great to have staff and contractors on board, and try to treat everyone equally by giving them world class service, no matter who they are or how much they paid. Glad you enjoyed yourself and hope we carry on delighting you in the future as well.. .. .CHEERS - The good feedback is just as important as the bad.

[snooky]

Shadowpurser, I think That you misunderstood my point. Suggest that you read 2177.

[Shadowpurser]

Can you not just tell me - it's not a secret or anything is it? All my FCO's are at my parents house.

[snooky]

I don't think that a public forum is the place to give out details of FCOs, but it is important that you should understand the rules as a SCCM.

[Magplug]

Snooky I see what you are driving at with FCO 2177 but what we are talking about is the unofficial 'looking after our colleagues after boarding'.. .. .There is of course no official upgrade priority for this apart from perhaps own-fleet / own company first.. .. .If the Midland Skipper was positioning SH I doubt weather BM would pay Club fare. If he was on ST off his BM entitlement he goes behind all BA staff to get on. If he is travelling on his partners BA entitlement he would have a lower onload priority travelling alone than accompanied by the staff member.. .. .The Onload/Cabin entitlement thing is so strictly regulated that no one gets seen off and everyone knows where they stand. Except maybe this guy?

[Rob_L]

More like delusions of adequacy!!!!!!!!!

[Shadowpurser]

Could someone e-mail it to me if it's not too much trouble then I can give a proper reply. Hope it's not too long he he Thanks. Promise to retrieve them from my folks as well. Usually use the ones on board or my girlfriends.. [email protected]

[Unwell_Raptor]

I have friends who regularly travel Business. They tell me that Business can be 50% BA staff, and First can be 100%.. .. .My experience is very limited, but on one long haul flight where I got a First upgrade it was me, the FO's girlfriend and two paying passengers. On the return trip it was just me and the lady.

[Alfredo_Garcia]

Shadowpurser,. .. .Can you just remind me as to where it says (in BA's rules and regs) that you, as a purser have the authority to upgrade anyone. . .. .I was always under the impression that it was at the captains discretion and not yours.

[L337]

ooer, time to take cover....

[Shadowpurser]

Eh? Alfredo you obviously don't fly for a living. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> Lets clear something up, as the in charge crew member I can upgrade who I want. If someone came and "told" me who I was upgrading I would politely "tell them where to go". It's like me telling the pilots who's having their jump seat. It's their call and it just ain't done. Yeah Yeah Captain is A/C commander etc etc etc but at B.A. if anyone thinks or would like someone to be upgraded they ask the in-charge crew member first a)through politeness, b)in the interests of CRM because we're a team, c)to ensure they're not drinking alone in the bar for the rest of their career. The captain who stroles around telling crews how to do their jobs is probably the same captain we're talking about at the start of this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Shadowpurser]

I thought that was quite restrained by the way!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[screwdriver]

You REALLY should get hold of the relevant FCO from yer Mam and Dad.

[Hand Solo]

Shadowpurser,. .. .Whilst I'm sure most of us appreciate your professional approach to the job, to spare you embarassment you should really should check out the FCOs on this subject. They state quite clearly the process regarding upgrades and the authorisation of such. To give you a clue, it's not you who can authorise such, and its not me either.

[thegirth]

Perhaps the bmi Skipper forgot his wallet, he was therefore refused the upgrade?

[Shadowpurser]

Well gents I promise to do my homework, but at the end of the day FCO or no FCO, when that doors closed we move who we want. Sorry if that's news to you but it's the truth, and dispatchers often ask me to upgrade pax for one reason or another if that's the piece of the puzzle I'm missing. Ask your team next time your on board, the answers may suprise you. Maybe were just a bit more easy going at B.A.?. .. .P.S. exeng - Some of my collegues may not have made such constructive comments after that earlier post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[KERDUNKER]

my wife tells me that as far as upgrades go that dispatchers call the shots as well as duty managers authorizing upgrades from one class to another - not a two class jump - It should also be noted that any upgrade done 'on board' could technically effect the weight and balance of that cabin area albeit a small one but it could make a difference in trim. As far as the BMI capt. he would definitely be behind BA staff in the pecking order.. .. .PS The wife IS a BA dispatcher!

[Shadowpurser]

Trident I think you may be missing the point now. Anyone who is due or has the right to an upgrade gets it if there is room, that's not the issue. However if for example this BMI cap and his other half were travelling on his concessions and were travelling in the back. If there were 2 B.A. staff travelling in the same cabin they'd be upgraded first, sorry but that's what happens everywhere in every airline not just B.A. If there's room for everyone they all come up!! All providing no blocked seats due to A/C trim as Kerdunker has quite rightly stated. . .If B.A. and every other airline start hanging in-charge crewmembers for upgrading staff or circumventing the system, then I'm afraid there won't be any be many of us left out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Hand Solo]

Well KERDUNKER was close, but only one of the people he mentioned has exclusive authority to upgrade people. I sense a bit of a power struggle developing on this thread. I am fully aware of what goes on once the doors are closed (although, erm, obviously I've never benefited from that) but it should be fully understood that this practice is outside of the rules and could leave you in a tight spot should it backfire, so lets all proceed with caution.. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 01:47: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</small>

[Trident Sim]

Shadowpurser. .. .Apologies for my missing post. I did post a reply to you, tried to edit it for spelling and grammar, the thread got locked and moved, and somehow I have managed to lose the whole thing completely in cyberspace.. .. .Anyway, so long as you are aware of how seriously BA might view some of your actions, that's the end of my input to this debate.

[RevMan2]

Fascinating thread.. .. .Maybe an insight into the way another European major handles upgrades could swing the focus onto commercial issues:. .. .Absolutely NO upgrades in flight (The migration through the cabin after the doors have been closed is a bit too transparent). .. .In the case of oversales, the sequence is high value pax from Business to First, the same criteria from Economy to Business and if there's still space, staff travel (own airline, alliance staff, others) to the ticketed class.. .Pretty simple and commercially sensible.. .And if staff do get upgraded to Business or First, they get the once-over at the gate to make sure that their dress and demeanour is appropriate.. .Might seem pretty restrictive, but the paying customer base turned out to be pretty critical of the previous "free for all" situation

[Shadowpurser]

Guys I agree it's time to end this debate because I don't think were going to resolve anything. All very interesting and enlightening though. . .. .I'm wondering if anyone found themselves on receiving end of "company favouritism" or "looking after your own" - and it was the difference between you and your family getting home that day or being stuck in an airport for 24hrs on the other side of the world, would you refuse those seats? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .A final thought for everyone out there. . .. .Have you ever tried to manipulate the system when your on staff travel by asking a friend (crew or pilot) a favour, droping a note to the operating crew, asking for an upgrade on board? Or have you been operating and been asked for a favour by a pal and have "had a word" with someone? Be honest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[flapsforty]

Perhaps not so much a power struggle as a fundamental difference in outlook & mentality between many cockpit and cabin crew?. .. .Anyone correct me please if they see it another way, since this is just a small pet theory of mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .For references; I live in 1 country and fly out of another so I travel back and forth to work on staff tickets. (US $ 92, UK £ 68 for a return trip). .. .Once at work I am in charge of the cabin of a 737, assorted types & sizes, and have to make decisions on upgrades every stretch I fly. (sorry exeng, but that's what it says in my manual <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). .. .On this thread some of the cockpit people seem to have gotten stuck in "The Rules"; the way things are supposed to be done. This quite normal for cockpit people; if they were not that way inclined, they would not be suited to pilot commercial aircraft. . .In their world there is a procedure for almost [b]everything laid down in Aircraft Operation Manuals, Basic Operation Manuals etc. They have to take note of NOTAMS & NOTOCS. The Captain also has to sign his name on the dotted line before each and every take-off. . .Sticking to the established procedure gives the greatest chance of safe execution of the flight. (and the smallest chance of ending up for tea and biccies with the chief pilot or getting one's name in the papers). .Which logically results in a certain rigidity in most pilots' outlook on rules and on how the rest of the world should treat rules and regulations.. .. .Cabin people also have manuals and SOP's. But since they deal more with people than machinery (yes yes yes I know, generalization..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> ) cabin people often find that to execute the flight in the most "commercially satisfying" manner, they have to bend, amend, circumvent, interpret, extrapolate and sometimes totally ignore the rules laid down by the company. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .So if we can not stick by all the rules, who decides which ones, when and where and how to break them? . .Well, as a matter of fact, the CSD/Purser does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .Using experience, judgement, and hopefully brain.. .Shock, horror, indignation! . .What are these uppity cows thinking of?? . .(........ why do FA's have 1 more brain cell than cows? So they don't sh!t in the aisle.....) . .This leaves your general cabin person with a somewhat more fluid outlook on rules and the application of same.. .. .And THAT difference in outlook is what IMHO is causing the lack of consensus on this thread.. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 18:45: Message edited by: flapsforty ]</small>

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Spot on Flaps.. .. .Quite a few years ago I flew longhaul on BA on an ID90/R2 with a priority lower than ballast weight. However, once seated way back in monkey a kind purser came down and asked if I would please follow him. Gathered my belongings certain that I was about to be off-loaded. But to my surprise he led me upstairs and placed me in a J-seat. Excellent service. During the +12 hour flight, I visited the cockpit and thanked the captain for the upgrade. He broke into a big smile and told me that he had nothing what-so-ever to do with that; he tended to concentrate on the stuff going on forward of the cockpit door and leave the cabin to the FA's, since "they work back there and I work up here". Seemed like a sensible approach to me, although it might not be in full compliance with company SOPs. But as Flaps has said, the strict procedures that cockpit crew so rigidly follow are not always applicable to the self loading freight, whether they have paid a full or reduced fare.. .. .In my days as a dispatcher for a handling company I saw the same things happening; Cabin Chief would come to the check-in desk and politely ask if we would upgrade this person, normally a friend or relative of the crew. We always complied because a) we were a handling agent and b) it would be stupid to argue rules and regulations with an operating crew. Yes, the rules were more often than not bent or overlooked, but that is one of the charming things about aviation when there are no safety concerns is it not ? The possibility that you can look out "for your own" and offer them the perk of an upgrade.. .. .For the balance shift when upgrading .... well, we trim aircraft for zero-fuel, take-off and landing weights. Ever noticed that as soon as the "fasten seat belt" sign is off a rather large number of people immediately gets up and head for the nearest lav ? I would imagine that +30 people getting up and moving around, not to mention the 10 or more FA's and their rather heavy trolleys running up and down the aisles, presents more of a weight shift than 1 or 2 in-flight upgrades. ..... not a pilot, but it would seem that the autopilot can easily cope with the constant in-flight balance shift from people moving around the cabing, and trim it out.. .. .Keep it up guys and girls, it is one of the charms of flying.

[Shadowpurser]

Ok have the relevent FCO now (Thank you), however if FCO 2177 was used against everyone who's broken it (or anyone who knows it is being broken), we'd have no planes in the air because there'd be no pilots, crew, dispatchers, groundstaff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .Similarly if we prossecuted everyone (Including children) who broke FCO 4004-app-11-2 which I incidently am VERY SERIOUS about and include in every crew briefing(Get your books out) we'd have no pax either. This goes back to my other collegues posts on how we are flexible and bend the rules sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .Similar situation to speed restrictions on the roads (70mph on a UK motorway, 30mph in built up areas etc.) the rules are there, but if everyone who broke them got points for it, well... we'd all be on public transport by now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. .We could sit here all day thumbing through FCO's and SOP's picking holes in the way each other operates. But would that really solve anything? If we go down that road then airlines have spent an awful amount of money on CRM for nothing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .WE ARE ALL TEAMS WITHIN A LARGER TEAM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Jet II]

Toatally agree with Shadowpurser - In my experience the Captains interest in upgrades is confined to his immediate friends and family, I've never seen one take much interest in pax upgrades, thats usually left to the CSD.. .. .Mind you I did see one captain delay a flight by 30 min so that the engineers could fix a seat so that his wife could get on standby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Brakes...beer]

Flip Flop Flyer,. .. .Small point to clear up any misconceptions: yes, the pilot/autopilot can handle any movement around the cabin by retrimming in flight. However, if a significant number of people have moved around the cabin before departure, then the trim setting given on the loadsheet will be incorrect. This could cause a nasty surprise to the handling pilot when his mate calls, 'Rotate'. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Brake ... beer, that goes without saying. Hence I wrote after the fasten seat belt sign has been switched off. Having said that, and speaking of big iron, would it be felt if you move say 2 x 80 kgs from row 50 steerage to single digit comfort ? I mean, a LMC can cover upwards of 500kg without calling for a new loadsheet, which equals to around 6 passengers.. .. ..... Or the PF would either think "damn, must find time to go to the gym" or look at his arms with a rather large smile mumbling "yeah, now the watch matches the arm" . .and ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 16:45: Message edited by: Flip Flop Flyer ]</small>

[NigelOnDraft]

Shadowpurser. .. .I agree with the way things are done as you do them. I hope those spouting FCOs at you were not proposing that you obey them exactly.... .. .What they were hinting at was:. .1. If you are going to disobey FCOs, by very careful about spouting it out loud. .2. At least if you are aware of the FCO you can ensure that whatever you do, you cover yourself, especially if the stuff starts hitting the fan. .. .Its not that pilots have a wedge of rule books and follow them blindly. We do have, though, knowledge of disciplinaries where the Mgmt will throw every little FCO transgression at us. So we are wary.... .. .IMHO - Keep it up!. .. .NoD

[Shadowpurser]

Cheers buddy! Managed to keep clear of trouble so far, comes with having a "unique style" that people seem to warm too (even management!). However always ready to take good advice on board. If it ever comes down to it, hopefully all those years of complementary letters and positive comments cards written by pax won't be in vain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Brakes...beer]

Flip Flop Flyer,. .. .Sorry, thought you meant it might be OK to shift large numbers around in between the loadsheet and take-off. Anything within the LMC limits on most aircraft would not even be noticeable to PF on rotation. Hence the limits, I suppose.

[Recover]

Shadowpurser,. .. ."If someone came and "told" me who I was upgrading I would politely "tell them where to go". It's like me telling the pilots who's having their jump seat. It's their call and it just ain't done. Yeah Yeah Captain is A/C commander etc etc etc but at B.A. if anyone thinks or would like someone to be upgraded they ask the in-charge crew member first".. .. .I think you and I might be having a chat next time you fly with me and, as a hint of the tone,it won't be you doing the talking. I suggest you think very carefully before you write more and have a good think about your actual influence on the conduct of the flight versus your Walter Mitty perceptions.. .. .Fortunately, your 'unique' style has not only made you stand out to the pax but, combined with the rest of the info you've given on this site, led to your easy identification.. .. .Telling me where to go, politely or otherwise, would result in you no longer being part of my crew and probably lead to you having no further say in upgrades or anything else to do with the running of any BA aircraft. You're not in as lofty a position as you think you are, but rather than spout on further here, I'll be explaining command chains et al at our next meeting.. .. .PS: It's funny but, apart from charging a passenger's credit card, I see no mention of the SCCM being involved in upgrades at all in FCOs. Maybe those rules, under which you fly, will also form part of our 'chat'.

[Hand Solo]

Well I'll have a go at calming things down here. I think Shadow may have been mis-interpreted and actually meant that none of his cabin crew or pax would be telling him who to upgrade, hence the 'being alone in bars' comment. I don't think it was intended as an attempt to usurp command of the aircraft! Staff travel actually isn't a right and it can be withdrawn by the company for reasons such as abuse of the system. This they can't do with your pay. We rightly expect our staff travel entitlement, but this is only in economy most of the time. Any unofficial upgrading is a welcome benefit.

[flapsforty]

Recover, I read your post about an hour ago.. .Re-read it to make sure I didn't misunderstand.. .Re-read the whole thread to see if I'd missed anything.. .Got out the vacuum cleaner and the mop and did the main floor to avoid posting while in a "state of agitation". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .So, calm & perspective restored, I remain incredulous. The red letters at the bottom of the page come to mind. . .Surely no real BA Captain would react the way you do to the statement: As a purser ......it comes down to me sometimes who gets "china or plastic"??? Because that is, plain and simple, a fact of life!. .Maybe I overrate the intelligence required of captains at BA? . .Or maybe you are the ultimate, frightening embodiment of the archetypical but in our company blessedly mythical pilot whom I sketched on page 2 of this thread?. .Are you seriously threatening a fellow ppruner with disciplinary measures as a result of something posted here? . .I have a very very hard time getting my mind around that scenario. . .. .Not working for BA I can happily post here without fearing the likes of you. . .On our 737 fleet the entire pilot body would wonder if I had taken leave of my senses if I were to seek their permission everytime I upgrade a passenger. A 737 Purser who isn't able to make that decision alone would be regarded with grave misgivings in our mob. I reckon quite a few of our captains would laugh me out of the cockpit if I came to them with an upgrade question.. .The rest would be rather bemused. And worried about my lack of decisiveness.. .. .Recover, please have a good think about the realities of life on a 737.. .You are the boss, and we work under your overall responsability. And yes, you are responsable for everyone on your aircraft sticking to the rules.. .But the reality is that if we stuck to all the rules, we'd hardly ever take off........... .That is not theory from a manual, that is not speculation Recover, that is a hard fact of life!. .. .I repeat .....to execute the flight in the most "commercially satisfying" manner, cabin crew have to bend, amend, circumvent, interpret, extrapolate and sometimes totally ignore the rules laid down by the company. Seeing how we can not stick by all the rules, who decides which rules, when and where and how to break them? . .Well, as a matter of fact, the CSD/Purser does!. .Using experience, judgement, and hopefully brain.. .. .Recover, I am mercifully spared from having to work with captain's who have your mentality.. .Your post has made clear to me once again that I need to count my blessings regarding our company culture.. .. .Our pilots expext us Pursers/CSDs to do our jobs in the cabin in such a way as to make sure the pax return to fly with us next time 'round, while ensuring that all FA's strictly follow flight safety regulations & procedures.. .They are happy to help us when needed, they enquire how things are going "down the back" to make sure all is as it should be, but in 20 years flying I have only met 1 captain who actually interferes with the running of the cabin. . .By both the pilots and the FA's this man is universally regarded as a total f**kwit.. .. .Shadowpurser, time to wind in your neck mate, if this man is serious, the fact that you see the realities of life on the 737 much more clearly that he/she does, is NOT worth your job! . .. .Visual, Hand Solo explains succintly the difference between a perk and a right. . .A good point to keep in mind when traveling on a staff ticket.

[Shadowpurser]

Recover I look forward to our next meeting, as I always look forward to meeting any of my two winged buddies. You have the advantage on me I guess. If you know me then you also know that any discussion we may have in the future will not be one sided as I am not one to let you do all the talking for long. I actually had this discussion with "the guys" driving today and while they did repeat the A/C commander bit, they in fact would not even think to get involved with any cabin affairs bar very serious stuff. Hand Solo is right, I'm not trying to "Unsurp" anyone's command - I know my place. I joined this discussion because I had an opinion and a different viewpoint form most people who frequent this site, I also thought people would be face up to what goes on day to day, and be constructive and realistic. Sadly I am finding this is not the case (sigh). RECOVER I'm sure when we meet you will do the teacher and naughty schoolboy bit with me and teach me the error of my ways quoting FCO 2177 at me until you are blue in the face. But please, before you do reveal yourself be sure that you not guilty of breaking it yourself. For example todays Cap when bringing his wife on W.W. trips when he was operating, never asked for her to be upgraded but always "informed" the CSD that she was on-board had a seat in traveller He certainly never complained when she "magically" found herself in first!. Similarly have you ever been on the recieving end of it being broken, ever been upgraded by a purser of CSD?. But don't worry buddy I won't shop you to the company because work as part of a team!!!! If you want to offload me because you don't like the fact every CSD or PSR is doing this and I'm the only one to say it on this board - fine! - your the A/C commander and it's your call I'm sure nobody will dispute THAT up in the office.. .My e-mail is posted here on this thread, reveal your identity and we'll talk, lets iron out our differnces now before it ruins a "work day" for either of us. Neither of us want that buddy.. .. .Look forward the chatting to you - we'll do it over a beer in the pub if you like - I'm flexible!!

[Shadowpurser]

Flaps I would love to buy you a beer!!!!. .Also sounds like you work for a great company and have some great cockpit crew. Our company has the unfortunate honour of being the one with the greatest divide between cockpit and cabin is our country (sorry but it has). Luckily my fleet is also well know for being the most friendly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> All the cabin crew have a great relationship with our pilots, and we work and play together when we can (ooeeerrrrrrrr!!! lol). I think I can speak for all my collegues that the locking of the flight deck door while being nessecary, was a terrible blow to morale on board. I feel so sorry for you guys locked up in there, so I make an effort to make social visits - tell a few jokes on the interphone etc. To think that one of my collegues (because I see you guys as collegues!) threatens me in this way - makes my heart sink <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> It also shows me how far we still have to go at B.A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .We'll see if he e-mails me anyway! If fancy a beer!!!!. . . . <small>[ 23 March 2002, 22:51: Message edited by: Shadowpurser ]</small>

[Jet II]

Recover. .. .Thats the biggest load of pompous tosh that I have heard in a long time. It is crew with your attitude that give BA a bad name. . .. .Shadowpurser and flapsforty are the ones talking sense here - if all you can do is spout FCO's and get very insulting I suggest you have the old chip removed and get a life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[millhampost]

I have to say this is an intriguing thread.. .But from my point of view as an Executive Club SLF would one of you kind people please tell me who I have to talk to to request the possibility of an upgrade?. .Is it -. .1 Check in - probably not. .2 Staff at final ticket/passport check before boarding . .(see - I don't even know the proper name for this part of the process) - or . .3 cabin crew after I actually board. .AND at what time should I board. .as soon as possible. .middling or. .as late as possible?. .Many thanks

[Quidnunc]

Ask the person you buy the ticket from - pay the money and - BINGO! Guaranteed upgrade!

[Max Angle]

Blimey, getting a bit heated here I think. I am a bmi Captain (not the one in question I might add) and have had the pleasure of an upgrade to club quite a few times with BA and very nice it was to. I do not expect it and would certainly expect to be behind ANY BA staff member in the pecking order, I can assure you that you would be behind any bmi staff on our aircraft and who would expect otherwise?.. .. .The way I see it staff travel is one big co-op, we all need each other to make it work. I have spent years taking BA cabin crew and pilots on the jumpseat when they are trying to get to work at LHR or home after a trip and I am very happy to do it. Likewise I (and other family members) have been well looked after by BA staff. At the moment we can't take other airlines staff on the flightdeck but hopefully it will change in the future, managed to get a BA staff member on a cabin crew jumpseat the other day though.. .. .Lets keep it friendly folks!.

[millhampost]

Steady on Mr Quidnunc - before you know where you are you'll be suggesting staff should pay for upgrades! (heaven forbid). .My post was in response to the thoughts in Shadowpurser's post number 2 on page 1 of this thread - . .'Incidently I also like to upgrade our Executive club card holders as well if possible not just staff as they are the ones paying "propper money" on a regular basis, and I for one want them coming back more often.'. .Yes well that's me there.... . .so I still would like to know how I find the 'person with the power'. .Cheers. .Expressman

[Hand Solo]

If you're flying BA and you're then they'll know who you are.

[411A]

If so called "other airline staff" think they should be upgraded...then they should mentioned same to their OWN interline office....and not make a fool of themselves in front of others.
If their "own" airline does not want to pay for the privilege then...tough beans. Our guys travel business class because we pay for them to do so...and not discounted either.

[Vee2]

I've been upgraded by both BA and Virgin when on staff travel. If I could ever help out BA or Virgin staff, give them a jumpseat or upgrade them, I'm only too happy. If we dont all look after each other who will? What goes around comes around.

[rubik101]

Not wanting to be left behind recently, I paid full fare for my tickets to Oz. A simple introduction was made, with Company ID card, not BA by the way, to the Purser/CDC on entering the aircraft each time. On all four sectors I was told to wait under the stairs. Some time later I was led to a Club seat, indeed, on one occasion to First! (It may just have helped them load another passenger into economy/coach!)
The thinking was, it seems, that having paid full fare as an airline pilot, I was very probably slightly mad and in need of some treatment, lay back, relax and drink this, type of treatment!
As for the rights and wrongs of the Purser using his discretion to upgrade pax, even if this is contrary to the letter of the FCN, I have to say that before long none of us will have any discretion to decide anything in the near future.
I say, long may it last!

[Shadowpurser]

Well it's good to see some more positive comments about the unwritten rules. I seem to have caused quite a stir, and after Recover threatening me with my job I decided not to post any more on this site. However after doing my own straw poll at work, and the rest of the pilot community branding him "AN ARSE!!!" I decided I would not go so quietly. Recover has still not e-mailed me or confronted me at work - so I must assume that he must be guilty of manipulating the system or recieving treatment outside of rules as well. I suspected as much and I think the old saying "peolpe in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" applies. I'm still upgrading staff/friends/pilots wives etc. Did so the other day for a 747 Cap and his wife to MAD who said it was the best service he'd had on ANY B.A. flight in years and gave me his business card and said if ever I needed a favour etc etc etc. I stand by my service and my collegues!!! It's all you've got sometimes!!!:D

[Recover]

Shadow,

I too decided not to post any more comments, for 2 reasons. Firstly, we were starting go ‘off thread’ and secondly, because my concerns revolve more around your personal conduct, rather than that of Pursers and CSDs upgrading.

Those that know me will vouch for the fact that I am pragmatic and reasonable in my approach to almost all activities on my flights, this includes the ever thorny subject of Staff Travel. I won’t let people abuse or be abused by it and so I do take an interest. I’m sorry if taking an interest in the activities on my aircraft is something new to you or the pilots you allegedly questioned, but I reckon it’s part of being a Captain. My responsibility does not stop at our metal shield. I’m more than happy to delegate certain responsibilities to the SCCM (of course some of these are taken as read) and whereas I do not micro-manage, I do like to know what’s going on and expect to be kept informed , rather than in the dark (all quite reasonable I would think). That having been said; you are incorrect in the conclusions you draw from my silence regarding upgrades. Thus far I have been in the fortunate position of not being ‘guilty of manipulating the system’. I have been upgraded, but only because of either my seat priority when using my bookable tickets or because Traveller has been full and staff are upgraded ahead of commercial passengers. I am NOT holier than thou. This does NOT mean that I would refuse an upgrade and it certainly does NOT mean I would ever try and prevent staff being upgraded. Someone else pointed out that we have to look after each other. I genuinely believe and practice this philosophy.

My heated post, rather than a reaction to your views on upgrading, was a result of your comments, one of which I quoted in my response. On the one hand you say that you are not trying to usurp anyone’s authority and yet you write differently: “Lets clear something up, as the in charge crew member I can upgrade who I want”. This is just one of many confrontational examples in which you not only over-step your authority, but in which you are clearly wrong, by the letter of the book but, more importantly, in your perception of your position on the aircraft. The quotation of yours that made me see red was the one I used in my message and I challenge anyone to find a better example of usurping authority. You basically said that if I told you to do something ie upgrade a particular person then you would tell me “where to go”. It is extremely unlikely that I would ever tell someone to do something, but it may be I have to for a very good reason and might, perhaps, be constrained by time. I would naturally try and back up such an ‘order’ with an explanation when I was able to. Now, for some reason, you believe your position as a Purser gives you the right to tell me “where to go”. I wonder why that would anger me, both personally and in my position as the aircraft Captain and lead to the post I made? I never threatened your job, but I certainly stand by the fact that you would no longer form part of my crew on that flight. It is an extreme and something I would not do lightly, but giving your Captain 2 fingers is pretty good usurping in my book, never mind what FCOs say. As I said, it is very unlikely that I would find myself in the position of telling you to do something, but if I did I would not expect the response you wrote of. This is what I referred to when I pointed out that your position is not quite as lofty as you believe. What will it be next? “Prepare the cabin for an emergency landing”, “No. I’m the Purser and I decide what sort of cabin preparations to make”.

Shadow, you and I both know how well we all work as a great team at EoG (or whatever we’re called this week). The likes of Flaps 40 probably wouldn’t think it after my previous missive, but I genuinely believe we have the best bunch in the whole BA network. Likewise, I have always got on with all the crew (both sides of the barricade) and have never “had to ensure they're not drinking alone in the bar for the rest of their career”. For me to write such an emotional message is totally out of character but it was caused by your posts. Having read through them several times now, I know that I’m not misinterpreting anything. Perhaps you didn’t say things the way you wanted them to sound, I don’t know. But and it’s a BIG one, if you really believe you can say and do the things you purport then I advise extreme caution. One day someone will crash down on you like a ton(ne) of bricks……and you know BA Management; all those glowing reports from Capt X going to MAD etc will count for nought.

I knew this would go way off-thread, so back to you guys for your thoughts on the ever-abusable and totally corruptible subject; that’s staff upgrades in case you missed it.

[Shadowpurser]

Ok - lets finish this here!!!!

Firstly neutral99 - if you read the rest of this thread carefully you'll find my better half is in fact a first officer and if I if I had a chip on my shoulder against pilots I can assure you she would kick me swiftly into touch - also she'd probably withdraw certain "privilages" that no man should have withdrawn. Your right about how well these poffesionals are trained, and that they deserve every pound they earn. I admire them all for what they can do - I would have liked to become a pilot myself however my eyesight isn't up to standard. Also read my post in the cabin crew forum "A Plea to all C/C - F/A's! Please read" if you or anyone else are still in any doubt of my attitude towards pilots that should clear it up!!!

Secondly Recover some of the things I've said seem to have been taken the wrong way. I wouldn't tell a pilot "where to go" in those words, that was bravdo on my part, but also, I trully think I would never be put in that position at EFG anyway because we don't work like that! We all get along, we all have a great time, I love the people, and I love working there.

Like I said I know my role and I know the Cap is in charge. I certainly know PSR at EFG is not lofty and I have do dellusions of grandure!!! Considering I am being paid less than my more junior collegues who have transferred to the "golden runways" at the moment I also know where I stand in the greater scheme of things at B.A. as well (Pretty much nowhere!!). But that's another story and not why I do the job, and not what we're talking about here.

The thread subject is clear and I did offer to chat about this off of this site to resolve our differences. Hopefully we can get together soon downroute and chat about this over a few beers?

I upgrade people because I'm trying to improve a few peoples days, I hate to see catering go to waste, and we might just get a few pull paying pax coming back for more. Whatever YOU want me to do LET ME KNOW. I certainly don't want to upset you if it matters that much to you, after all your in charge (not being sarcastic there - just honest).

If I have to face the "spanish inquisition" and face the horrors of "the comfy chair" that's my problem. I think I've seen enough posts on this site to see what people think of B.A. management I'm not much different. I care about the PAX paying my wages simple as that!

Lets leave it there (EVERYONE!!!!). Look forward to seeing you on-line.

Back to "Staff travel upgrades" LOL!!!!!!

http://www.marketingcouncil.org/officers/images/pictures/marshall.jpg

Here's a picture of everyones favourite non-executive director anyway to lighten the mood!!!