Nice Try...

[wombatatico]

Like a school girl at a Spice Girls concert I just wanna jump up and scream my bloody head off!

The AOA's update letter states that the AUS B scale pay increase is 11.5 percent?

How stupid do they think we are? Yes, 3 plus 3 plus 2 plus 2 plus 1.5 does infact equal 11.5%. Congrats, you passed pre-school math. However, we all know it's a bit more complicated than that. If as an SO, you make a measly 20 in HDP, a 2% rise in HDP hardly comes close to a 2% rise in overall salary? OH by the way, it's less if you do not hit 84 hours each month.

The actually total figure, cumulative of the 2008 and 2009 steps of both scale and HDP rises, is around 8%. The AOA knows this yet decided to print a 11.5% figure.

SHAME ON YOU FOR TRYING TO FOOL YOUR OWN PEOPLE!!!!!

Numero Crunchero, were you involved with coming up with these bogus figures?

[404 Titan]

wombatatico

I thought the same as you until I read it again. It is infact 2% increase on Pay + HDP

Changes to HDP

The increases to HDP above describe their effect on TOTAL pay. So, a 2% increase means a 2% improvement on the previous year’s Pay+HDP.

[Numero Crunchero]

Very capable people calculated and checked these numbers. The calculations tell you how many extra dollars you get in 2009 vs 2007, at 84hrs. The PF amount reflects the PF component of the 3+3+2+2 as well as the PF amount of your current, 2007, HDP which is NOT currently Provident Fundable.

I see no deception intended or inherent in the AOA communications. The fact that you find the amount disappointing is understandable. You could just as easily have argued that tax will take almost half of the rise being on an Aussie base. Poms could quite rightly point out that NHI will wipe out their payrise in its entirety for FOs! Or you could point out that you are unlikely to get an Aus command basing for a considerably longer time now and that SFO only gets 6 increments. You could be unhappy about not receiving bypass pay as you are on a base!

The only section of AOA members likely to be 'happy' with this deal is 50-54yo A scalers - but then they will lose travel fund and other benefits at 55 so really no one will be truly happy.

Be pragmatic and accept the deal or be idealistic and reject it. ...your choice.

[Three Bear]

Have been going through the numbers and what is quoted by the AOA and the company does seem valid with regard to the % pay increases. To throw a little more mud in the water and quite possibly food for thought as to the inequality of the whole pay structure consider the following. At some point you may wish to take a base in Australia, if your an antipodean, and looking at Senior Captain 1 your pay at current exchange rates under CoS08 for year 09 would be 12% greater for living in Australia and this does not include HDP. If we look at HDP for year 09 at the exchange rate of 6.8 then an SC1 based in Aus will receive 36% more in HKD than his counterpart in HK. My point being hear that a certain Mr NR was quite adamant in '99 that a premium had to be paid for HK based crew due to the cost of living. From what I can tell the cost of living is still extremely high and HK is rated as the 3rd most expensive city in the world and for this we will pay you 12% less in actual salary and 36% less in HDP in comparison to an Aus base and yes you should consider this a good deal. By the way with age 65 retirement a base in Aus will not be available for another 6-7yrs so even if you wanted to take the higher pay on your base you can't because a certain A scaler that should of retired can continue on at home on an even greater % differential than the figures I have quoted above. Don't get me started on this one. However the concern is not that of A scale which should remain but the fact that nothing has been done to address the large disparity in pay scales. If I have to remain in HK due to bases being full and I wish to retire to my home port then I need to be compensated with a higher salary to cater for cost of living and exchange rate movements. There was a lot made of these issues by the AOA prior to negotiations and nothing has come of it. If the company wants unified FO salary then this should also apply to Command pay. Also to quote a fiqure of 64% for SFO pay relative to that of command pay on USAB surely the same figure is applicable in HK. However it is not with SFO6 compared with SC6 it is 70%. The rationale here is that either a captain is worth less in HK or an FO is worth more. All of the points that I have highlighted just show discrepencies in the deal that has been published and the fact that, on first impressions, very few members of the aircrew body should see this as a good deal. Tend to agree with NC and that is do the research yourself and make an informed decision about your future.

[wombatatico]

Numero Cruchero, Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Titan, Good point, however, I read it ten more times and I am still not seeing it.

Considering that a 2 percent increase in my HDP means I'll take in a whopping 36 extra HKD's a month, which inturn represents a 0.000924% increase in my salary, I still find the overall figure of 11.5% to be a bit iffy.

Please allow me to explain... the two 3% increments equal a 6.09% increase in salary. The two HDP increments equal something less than 1%. Compound and PF all of the increases and you end up with something between 7 and 7.5%.

That is hardly the 11.5% quoted by using the "3+3+2+2+1.5= 11.5%" factor.

Can anyone explain how/why I may be incorrect about this?

Again, please keep the cynical anti-AOA comments to yourselves.

[Numero Crunchero]

I haven't got the spreadsheets in front of me and I don't know your rank/increment/base. PM if you want and I can give you accurate data.

Generally, your 2008 salary is 3% higher than your 2007. Your 2009 salary is 3% higher than you 2008 salary. Currently HDP is around 4-5% of your total earnings(ignoring the 15.5% if you are based and get that as cash).

So in 2008 you will get 3% more on salary and, if you work 84 hours, another 2% more in HDP. In 2009 same thing happens with respect to your 2008 salary. Additionally, in 2009 your PF(15.5%) will be based on your 2009 salary AND all the HDP which would now be about 8-10% of your salary.

So in simple terms....if you didn't change rank/increment/ base you will get $111.5 for every $100 you receive today.

I can assure you there is no deception on those numbers...I checked them myself as has Three Bear(thanks mate) and I am sure my nemesis;-) 404 would have let me know if I got it wrong.

The final amount is quite variable. If you work say 56hrs a month for 2007-09, your pay rise becomes 3% + 3% +1.33%(2008 HDP) + 0%(2009 HDP) + 1% extra PF due HDP(last number very approximate).

So at 84hrs it is 11.5%(approx). At 56 hrs it is 8.33%(very approx).

Hope this clears it up - if not PM me.

By the way, I have not had any email ref the GC recommending it or not - any news?


B scaler,
very eloquent and reasoned expositions. I look forward to reading more;-)

[Three Bear]

I could quite possibly have this wrong but currently at 84hrs at C1-SC5 you get $40per hour which works out at $3360 max. Under '08 you willreceive $7140 and in '09 you will receive $9638.5. All figures are quoted for HKD and Captain1 through Captain5. Could you explain to me how you arrived at $36. Unless of course you have applies the 2% as a number direct to the $40 HDP as it currently stands. Regards Three Bear.

[wombatatico]

You are correct, I was wrong. I simply read it as an increase of the hourly duty rate. Thank you for explaining it.

Regards.