C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me

[BlunderBus]

My heart sings thinking you would read half a page of my crap to find the deliberate spelling mistake :)
The company dazzles with insults and inuendo and whips your pants down while you're not looking....beware :)

[BlunderBus]

Just had a thought..Why don't all A-scalers resign at 55? That would leave you on the contract you signed when you joined(plus pay rises over your 14 years).
That way this pay offer would be in line with what you have been used to over 14 years (which you have obviously accepted as well).
Then you can plod along without all the A-scale bitching :)
I've re-read most of your posts and 99% is slagging A-scale....so what really is your argument here?
That someone who's been here longer gets paid more?Almost every airline has that policy otherwise why would anyone stay?You will also be able to work to 65 but you just want the A-scale guys to do that somewhere else..is that it?
Salaries will merge and when you get to my situation and come to a dead stop after 21 years you might reflect on what all your slagging of senior colleagues actually achieved for YOU.....F***all.
And I've still got 5 years to go to 55 ....and I WILL be leaving.

[ACMS]

It's amazing how defensive you A scalers are of you salary, which by the way, you are signed on to receive only till 55.
Boy are you sensitive

ANSWER THIS: Why were 99% of you prepared to extend on basically B scale without the COS perks? You thought the offer was ok and accepted it (without the unions blessing I might add, and a few resigned to do it)
Now you MUST HAVE A scale past 55, as to you it's only fair.

I've suggested ( as have others ) a unified Pay scale after 55, you guys come back to the then current B scale ( todays B scale +15% ) and join the rest of us. And you'd get all the COS perks too.
A MUCH BETTER DEAL THAN YOU ALREADY ACCEPT TO FLY PAST 55.
So what would be wrong with that?

[Apple Tree Yard]

ACMS. You really are a piece of work! You seem to have this obsessive desire to see a 'lower' upper end of the salary scale. In case you haven't noticed, nearly all the worlds airlines are at 65, or soon will be. NONE of them pay their senior pilots less for the extra years they work....NONE. What exactly is your reasoning that would suggest that at CX, alone amongst all the worlds airlines, will be better off with a lower pay scale for the senior pilots.....of which you one day will be one yourself? How will that benefit YOU exactly?

Ps. You seem so sure of your postion, I am sure you will happily declare a pledge to not work for an A scale level of pay from 55 to 65....even if it was offered to you....? (needless to say, the obvious answer to this question reveals your deep hypocrisy). :=

ps. you say that the senior pilots 'agreed' to work to 55. That was because that was all that was on offer at the time. It is now going to be illegal to discriminate because of age, so the legal basis for signing the contract to 55 is null and void accordingly. Based on your logic, a slave in the 1800's should have remained a slave after emancipation because 'that was his status originally'....

[ACMS]

Like I said. you lot are really sensitive.
B scales will never be offered A scale, if we were then I would take it, and you could keep yours to.
It would be fair for all, but it aint gunna happen.
But to suddenly offer you all a 30% pay rise after 55 whilst giving the great unwashed rest of us 3% stinks.
maybe I'm just bitter and twisted, probably.
But look at it our way, you guys get a nice little package and we getting very bloody little.
If the company was giving us a 15 or 20% pay rise then I could live with A scale after 55, but they're not and we B scalers continue to suffer.

[404 Titan]

Apple Tree Yard
It is now going to be illegal to discriminate because of age, so the legal basis for signing the contract to 55 is null and void accordingly.Ah, no it’s not. Just because age discrimination laws may be introduced into HK doesn’t mean your CoS99 contract will be null and void. You can stay on CoS99 if you wish with a retirement age of 55 or transfer to CoS08 with a retirement age of 65. You will have a choice except if you are on a base when the basing companies are onshored.

[AnAmusedReader]

There might be a risk in voting NO. The comapny can impose DEFO and if you read the details it's a much better offer than last year. They can impose pay raises but they might not be as "much" as offered as a punishment. Age 65, I am afraid, is inevitable in most if not all bases. Is it right that based guys can work to 65 and hong kong guys can't? So voting NO does not guarantee present terms forever.

Is CX really having trouble recruiting and are many people really leaving? I don't think so. All the hot air we see on PPrune and all those who say they are leaving is not born out by the facts I suggest.

The negotiators should not have walked out, this isn't a street market stall in BKK. Their job was to negotiate the best deal they could get and get it to the GC for our reps to decide what next.

And as for all the slagging off of "the AOA", remember we elected them even if only because we had no choice because noboby else wanted the job, please remember that it is the company's offer not the AOAs.

I wonder how many of opur learned readers of PPrune have actually read the detail before they blast off.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

ACMS RUBBISH
"But to suddenly offer you all a 30% pay rise after 55 whilst giving the great unwashed rest of us 3% stinks.maybe I'm just bitter and twisted, probably. "

You are a bitter and twisted moron, there is no pay rise past 55 just increments if you have not topped out at that stage. You still fail to present any facts... just total rubbish. You must be a pain in the :mad: to fly with.

and more dribble from ACMS

"If the company was giving us a 15 or 20% pay rise then I could live with A scale after 55, but they're not and we B scalers continue to suffer."

Well mate the bits of paper (not in front of me) I have state HKG B scale Capts 11.5-14.8%.The only people who suffer are those that read your badly researched numbers you throw around to suit your selfish self centred arguments. As some one else said you use the word me me me more than anyone. You buddy are getting pay rises and the right to work another 10 years, yet you highlight a 5% loss due travel fund changes but forget the rises you get.

[ACMS]

CYRIL.... You lot have ALREADY accepted C- Scales to extend. More than 50 so far. That is a contract you accepted ( without union blessing, infact quite a few resigned so they could extend )
post 55 you have just been given a 30% increase over WHAT YOU ALREADY ACCEPT.
You are the Moron.
Thank all your A scale brothers for setting the benchmark after 55 so far.
FACT: so far more than 50 A scalers accepted crap deals to stay, flying rubber dog **** outta Hong Kong
FACT: quite a few A scalers resigned from the union to do so
FACT: quite a few A scalers suddenly decided to commence Training to get offered an extension on C scales
They are well know facts.
How's about you answer my question from earlier.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

ACMS
I actually feel sorry for you I think you really need proffesional help.

[ACMS]

CYRIL: you still are not answering my question mate.

ANSWER THIS: Why were 99% of you prepared to extend on basically B scale without the COS perks? You thought the offer was ok and accepted it

well?

[ACMS]

CYRIL: he only people who suffer are those that read your badly researched numbers you throw around to suit your selfish self centred arguments.
which numbers would they be Cyril.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

So I am now the spokesmen for all the A scalers both in and out of the union, and I am supposed to know how they think. Oh just one thing, I did not know any one extended on C scales ,could you provide me where to find a hard copy of them, or are they something that just exist in your sick little head.

Now I am getting sucked in by you and you a not worth, your facts are wrong and you sprout dribble. I have better things to do and say, ACMS :mad: Off and book off sick, you cannot be mentally fit to fly.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

http://www.youareanidiot.org/

[BusyB]

ACMS,

I still want to see how much money you are at this moment ahead of what you signed on for. You've already admitted you lied about it but didn't give the answer. You claim to have worked out how far ahead A-Scalers are, and others have indicated that the shares were worth 2-3yrs salary, so why don't you work out how much an A-Scaler with 5,10,15 years to go will be below his original contracted amount.

Lots of A-scalers are very sympathetic to raising B-scales where possible but you only want to take from others. You are doing B-scalers great harm but appear to be too stupid to see it.

If you can't do the sums I suggest you go and get some medical help. You appear to really need it.:ugh:

[bobrun]

Back to the topic...

is now going to be illegal to discriminate because of age

Really? It may have been mentioned at some point in time in HK, but does anybody know when the law is actually scheduled to be changed in HK? It may very well take several years before it is actually implemented. Who knows, maybe 5 years, maybe even 10. Why agree now to a major change that isn't even part of the law yet? Isn't premature? We may very well agree to it and then see several more years without any legislation coming into effect! Who knows what the HK/Beijing political agenda is?

It may be different with the bases; different countries have different laws. It of course suits the company to use discrimination laws from other countries to push issues on us. Why can’t we then use other countries laws to our advantage? I know a place or two where unions have much more legal power and where the right to strike is perfectly legal and accepted. Joining an established union is also compulsory upon beginning of employment in many countries. The pilot group (and AOA) could also use legislations in countries other than HK/China to our advantage. If they do it, why can't we?

The point is, there’s no law in HK preventing us from keeping RA55 yet. And any changes may very well be years away.

[sizematters]

"If they can do it, why can't we??"

well, firstly it is their train set

secondly

they have a big stock of pineapples

[BlunderBus]

The guys that retired at 55 and took **** pay to continue flying made their choice with what they were 'offered' at that time.As i explained ..alot of them had only been here a relatively short time because they were alot older when they joined..around 40 actually..that was what cx was all about way back then.If they wanted to remain in a familiar environment instead of taking orders from the koreans what's wrong with that?
The company didn't need them to stay and wouldn't pay them to extend unless they had a PhD in ass-kissing and a job on the 3rd floor or remained as check/trainers....but NOW THEY DO!
If a guy was happy on freighter pay working half way around the world from home on a crap base then that's his decision...just like you made yours.
The a-scale guys under 55 right now need to make a decision too and given our history of conflict with cx and what eventually happened some guys will be happy to REMAIN on their fixed pay but nobdy is getting a pay rise..let alone a 30% one...you're only comparing what some guys who left at 55 are paid on freighters and what guys under 55 would be on if they get to work past 55 now...it's different ball game.
I think while the a-scale salary remains then the union and b-scale have a benchmark to shoot at...as it is the company can hand you a crap deal...you'll sign up like you did 14 years ago..and keep bitching about it.
I paid my dues for 21 years...through times when it cost me 7500/month and i never bailed on the 49-ers...
What exactly is it that you have done in 14 years..for colleagues other than yourself...and if you hadn't turned up when you did...freighter pay wouldn't exist at all....
i hate to say it pal but if you don't like it...f**k off...a really stupid remark i know but it certainly applies to you.

[ACMS]

CYRIL.......... I guess you started that site did you?
Since you seem to know what pay rises B scales have had in 14 years, go ahead tell us.
I can't give you a copy of the C scales mate..........Your A scale brothers extended on a myriad of different contracts and it would be impossible to label them with 1 name. I chose "c" scales to highlight the fact it was WORSE than B scales, sorry your little mind couldn't work that out.


BLUNDERBUS: so I joined years before ASL was "spun off" from CX, and I lost probably 2 years command time through it, so how was it my fault?
And I've never Bailed on the 49ers either, I stayed in the AOA and made the contributions. DID YOU?
And I voted against DEFO last year, DID YOU?
thought not

[Numero Crunchero]

Ladies and Gentlemen

COMPANY PROPOSALS ON PAY AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE

After careful consideration of the recent pay and COS offer, the General Committee has by a majority voted against recommending ratification of the proposals.

The DFO has been informed of the outcome of the GC vote. We will advise you of any response in due course.

A more detailed explanation of the GC decision will follow shortly.

Regards

Steve Turner
President
14 August 2007

[Night Watch]

This great news..... Good to see the GC standing up to the company and it's slap in the face proposal!

Now let see what happens next??????

[ACMS]

Sensible decision.
So Blunderbus and Cyril I propose a truce.

[Numero Crunchero]

Some facts.

I don't know how many have extended past 55 but it is not 99%. My 'guesstimate' is 50-70%.

The difference between B and A scales in HKG is up to 25% at junior ranks and back to 14% at the senior levels. ACMS, your '30%' is not too far from junior CN differences but remember that by the time many of these guys extended they were in the senior CN ranks and so the pay cut was closer to 14% not your 30% 'worse' conditions you keep quoting. The extendees on HKG terms are taking about a 14% + pay cut.

Many A scalers are in the same PF you are. They do not increase their PF by $800K(?) per annum.

Busy B, not a fair comparison saying that ACMS should compare his career earnings to what he joined on. Two reasons why: first, he joined on conditions such that with all the rises planned his salary will finally match 1992 A scale salary - so only 17 years behind us; second, when did you join? I joined in 92 and my salary has exceeded those numbers since I had payrises in 93/94/95. Apples with apples, ok!

ACMS - I know what you are getting at... a slinging match will not help your position.

I have not had a payrise since ...well, forever! But, in spite of that, I have been on the GC twice with the aim of getting B scales up to A scales because it isn't fair to have two people doing EXACTLY the same job with different salary in the same company.

Blunderbus et al....we are the high paid dinosaurs. We are less than 20% of the pilot body. Like me, most of the B scalers joined with very little understanding what they were getting into. Example - I saw that CX paid 90% of ESF school fees - I had no kids at the time so I thought, you ripper, almost free education. Reality, child #1 was at an international school where the school fees were double ESF rates....so I got 45% of the fees refunded and then paid tax...net position was that I paid 62% of the fees out of my pocket. Or how about anyone that joined since Jun 97(some are CNs already) that find out that the emergency lifesaving operation their wife or child had will cost them $70,000HKD as CX has coverage limits.....medical coverage looked good in the pamphlet!

Whilst I disagree with ACMS's numbers and his delivery, my moral support goes to him. I find it hard asking for sympathy that I exercised my CX options a little early when I also earn almost 25% more than my almost peer B scale colleagues!

I think it behooves every A scaler to say nothing of how bad things are for us. Expectations are expectations...nothing else. If we remained on the deal that we joined on then the average CN1 starting salary for A scales would be from $63K(1988) to $113K(1993). So yes both B and A scales have moved up. But arguing that B scalers have had a better run is akin to telling your maid in 1999 that she is only receiving a 1% paycut vs your 7% paycut because you are generous! Never mind that you earnt 20-40 times more than her.

[Numero Crunchero]

Being on the GC is a representative position. Due to the last decade's perception of intimidation, very few FOs and almost no SOs have the courage to join the GC. That is sad as ideally the GC should reflect the demographics of the membership. Instead you are stuck with many very senior pilots as many junior guys/gals feel too intimidated to join maybe?

So what do we do on the GC? We try to think FOR the membership, rather than thinking LIKE a member...we try to think what is right and fair. Sometimes that leads to controversial decisions such as the RP04 extension.
I can assure you there is no 'group think'. The RP04 extension and this recent company proposal were internally debated to death. So you can rest assured your view is probably being represented.

Whilst I agree in collaborative negotiation on contentious issues, with this proposal I could not agree to what I thought was an unfair discrimination of bypass pay vs domicile. Fortunately(IMO!) the GC has decided NOT to recommend this deal. I want to make something clear. If we(the GC) had voted as individuals with no regard to others who knows how the vote would have gone...maybe have got recommended because, to be honest, I personally have nothing to lose from the deal and most of the GC are in the same boat. But instead, we all try to work out for ourselves what is in the best interests of the membership. We often disagree on that...viva la democracy!

Those that voted to recommend the deal are as passionate for the deal as I was against it. Who was right? Who knows! I had the same view as the majority but that doesn't make me right, it just makes me a sheep;-)

So no matter what else comes out of this please rest assured there is passion, commitment and unselfishness acting on your behalf in the GC. If you don't believe me I am more than happy to give up my position to you;-)

clear as glass?

[freightdoggiedog]

Quite aside from the fact that I'm glad you and others on the GC voted against endorsing this "deal", I believe I can thank you on behalf of most CX PPRUNErs for your constant, patient, timely and informative posts.

I think I get more info from you than CX and the AOA combined! :ok:

Now excuse my ignorance but what is the next step? Is the ball now back in "their" court?

fdd

[ACMS]

NC:---- thanks for the post. Just a couple of points/questions if I may.
1/ it takes a B scale CN 17 years to get to year 1 A scale CN
2/ I would have thought that most HKG based A scalers would be still on their original P/Fund? Some may be back from a base I guess but most should be on the original. We know that it is around $800K per year of service for those guys.
3/ For some A scalers to come out and say they took up to a 28% paycut when they know full well the Company gave them stock options that today almost offset that pay cut is deception. it's not my fault they pulled the options early.
Anyway thanks for your input. I hope the negotiators can substantially improve the B scale offer, maybe up to A scale!! ( I know I'm dreaming )
Good luck to us all.

[jtr]

4) Company Stalls another 6 months while 70% of flight crew manage to mysteriously burn another 5% fuel.

[slapfaan]

5) everybody goes on strike,bringing all operations to a grinding halt.CX beggs all pilots to resume work again..in return for a 50% pay-rise...:ok:

[Truckmasters]

Computer security warning

CYRILJGROOVE

http://www.youareanidiot.org/


Whilst I found this link highly amusing, my security package went beserk about the Trojan horse virus attached to opening the site.

Then again a Trojan horse is highly relevant when talking about discussions with the company.

[Rabesh Binny]

Everyone needs to chill out,take a breath,enjoy life,(Join the AOA);
& vote NO!, if required.
I went hiking today up High West.The view is fantastic.You can see GMA's new house in Bel Air from there!

[BScaler]

Numero Crunchero

I for one am pleased that the GC has acted as they have.

CoS 08 did not need to go to the membership for a vote that would have seen it go down by probably a bigger margin than the first DEFO agreement. We have all been saved a great deal of administrative time and effort as a result, and the GC can be seen to be acting, as you have laid out, in the interests of the broader membership.

Thankyou.

It is my hope that the Company and the AOA can sit down to further meaningful negotiations in the near future. I do not believe that an 'ammendment' to the current CoS 08 proposal should be entertained, should the DFO produce one. This should be renegotiated wholesale to take into account the concerns of the broader membership.

BScaler

[Numero Crunchero]

To answer your questions,
1: Not true - under current pay scales, and 2009 payscales from the deal, you will NOT be on A scales. What I was trying to show was that the 'market forces' salary in 1992 will equal what CX thinks is the 'market forces' salary in 2009. I will estimate that you are currently SCN2-3 - so you will be SCN 4-6 depending on when you got your increment. In 2009 you will be about 12-14% behind CURRENT A scales if the payrises get imposed. Current (pay cuts included) A scale salary is approx on a par with 1994 A scale in HKG.

2:Without a lot of research I cannot answer that accurately. If you trust my 'guesstimating' lets agree to just over half. Many A scalers went on bases as FOs(like me). Many A scalers are finding that the CPAPF93(Fidelity) is better after 17 or so years. With CPALRS you pay say 10% of your salary to get 3.99months per year extra(close to your number). WIth CPAPF93 you get interest on money already there(assuming it is in cash fund), you get to keep your 10% (1.3 months) and CX give you another 15.5% (almost 2 months). Depending on how much you have in the PFUND, you can be better off by 2 months a year in the new fund. Many of my financial literate colleagues worked out a long time ago that the new fund was better than the old fund except from about 12-17 years service.

3: I can tell you for a fact that the paycuts were up to 22.5%. Depends on how you measure it...if you start from pre cut salary it is say a 22.5% pay cut for Aussie based salaries. If you start from post cut salaries it would take a 29% payrise to return it to pre cut levels. Did the options cover the paycuts? Well they were based on 10 years earnings in current rank. I was an FO so got fewer than most. I haven't tried to work it out exactly (spilt milk category!) but my guesstimate would be that it has covered me for less than 2 years cuts in a 20(30 RA65) year career. If I had sold them at $20 it would have covered me for around 5 years worth of cuts.
But the point is, from an A scalers point of view, sure we had SOME of our cuts recompensed, but we have had no recompense or acknowledgement of the increasing cost of living since 1995. I totally understand the B scaler's perspective at the same time...hence my many posts on 'who is most aggrieved'...the one promised the silver spoon and doesn't get it or the one promised a wooden spoon and ends up with it silver plated!?

Bottom line - you and I didn't create this situation. Picking on each other will solve nothing.

From here...well, now that I have to remain a GC member I will have to revert back and see what we think;-)

My guess...CX will withdraw the deal as the deal was 'contingent' on GC recommendation anyway. So technically speaking there is no deal to vote on. CX said it would only be offered if 'we' energetically recommended it...hence the internal debate amongst the GC.

Sit on your hands for now...the GC moves slowly so in the meantime try not to second guess us too much;-)

I personally don't believe the deal will be sweetened, but I have been proven wrong in the past. Put yourself in NPR's shoes arguing for a payrise for pilots......there is the board "why Nick, why are they are asking so much? Well a lot of them are really really annoyed and may say bad things! What percentage did we lose last year Nick? Oh about 1% or so not counting retirees. OK Nick, come back to us when we have a REAL problem"

EK management is like ours...will only pay when it has to. EK had almost 5% turnover last year and voila, a 17% payrise this year.


I think JTR is on the money - recalcitrant pilots are the likely outcome. But JTR, remember this, the fuel budget is not the same budget as Personnel. So a bonus can still be paid on personnel savings in spite of the higher fuel costs;-)

[Westcoastcapt]

Good morning

It was nice to see that the GC has taken the sensible approach and not recommended this deal.

Just a few simple facts. It is ludicrous to expect A scale salaries to remain stagnant so as to offer parity. The real loser will be the B scale pilot, yet emotion on this forum seems to trump common sense. The higher the A scale goes, the higher the B scale follows. It's simple. Why don't you get it?

No, there will never be a unified payscale. You said you would do my job on less money so why would they up your salary. Have a peek in the Headland, it is full of recruits who have said they will do your job for even lesser money.

What to do now. Simply nothing. Just do your job. It is the present COS, with ASL and 55 that have hogtied the company. They want to expand but cannot facilitate this expansion under the present COS. It drives them nuts when they are losing by the very rules and conditions they imposed in the past.

For the AOA, ask for a simple payraise. Nothing more. Walk away if they demand other discussions. See above.

And indeed for everyone, look around. If there is a better option out there, don't be stupid, take it. If anything, it will make many of you feel better.

Yes, there is a great life after CX. Remember, it is only a job!

[Numero Crunchero]

JTR.
Our fuel bill last year was over $13billion. The salary and PF costs for pilots I have estimated at about $2.2billion.

So if the fuel burn went up 5% it would cost the company $650million extra in fuel. If that was given to B scalers and the fuel saved, it would amount to an almost 40% pay increase...actually, it would put B onto A scales and then give all of us (2100+) A scalers a 5-10% payrise on top of that.

So the CX pay proposal would cost them around 1-2% extra in fuel burn!

Kinda puts the pay thing into perspective doesn't it;-)

[BusyB]

Westcoastcapt,

That's a very perceptive comment. A-scales are here until all A-scalers retire. Whilst they still exist there is a target for the B-scales so obviously it would be better if they had payrises as well because when they've gone what is there for B-scales to get apart from COS and productivity.:ok:

NC,

I really like your last calculation, I wonder how Nick will take it!!:D

[Sqwak7700]

"I really like your last calculation, I wonder how Nick will take it!!"

I'll tell you how.

A 5% savings in fuel means 650 million increase in CX's profit which would make his bonus pretty damn high. What makes you think he would chose to give up his huge bonus so that you and I could have a raise??

Come on guy, we are talking management here. :ugh:

[BusyB]

Dumbo,

I meant the possibilty of every flight using 5% more and the cost involved:ugh:

[coded_messages]

Forgive me if I appear stupid but I assumed all these talks behind closed doors with the company and the AOA was about a pay rise. Since when did it become about my C of S?

[cxflyer]

Thank you Westcoast capt,
You have hit the nail on the head. The B scale will only be the A scale after all present "A scalers" have left. In a perfect world that would not be the case, it would happen overnight but we all know that will not happen. It only makes sense to want the scale one is following to continue to rise as it sets the bar for the others. Its not fair in the big picture but then again none of us were born with a card that entitled us to fair treatment all the time.
Thanks to everyone that made their voice heard at the GC level. This is OUR association and it is important that WE set our own agenda.:ok:

[BlunderBus]

If you were given a realistic deal and annual increments that went half way to keeping pace in hong kong then your current salary WOULD be at A-scale levels after(my) 21 years of service.The problem here is not the crew..it's the company.
They have sucessfully divided us for years because of guys like you.
Of course i'm sensitive about my pay..look what we've experienced over the last 15 years alone.You make that sound criminal because you signed up on B-scales.I believe in one job one pay...who doesn't? You make it sound like we're rubbing your nose in B-scale conditions.We spent millions fighting against it.
Is it unfair that we have crew doing EXACTLY the same job for less money than the next guy...you bet it is.But that doesn't make me want to throw away 20+ years of hard work.Why do I have to cut my hard earned situation to get for you what you should already have?..who's fault is that exactly..mine?...Direct your anger where it belongs.(the wife) :)
It ****s me that i can't bid on seniority my flight patterns or days off like my buddies in QF(i left a 747 job there to come here),it ticks me off that we cop 30 days of FREE reserve a year or that working on a 'G' day gets you 2.5% of your basic monthly pay whether you do a one-way Taipei or a 15 hour LAX,it ****s me 12 of my good mates got fired without reason fighting for pricks like you,etc etc...We've all got the moans but we CAN do something about this situation.I'm leaving anyway at 55 but I don't blame guys for staying or for having the opportunity to...on a decent package...and it should be the same for everyone...the company can easily afford it.

[jack744]

NC - Many thanks for your informative posts. Much appreciated

Can I ask you however how the PAY negotiations "morf" into a discussion on COS...?

Can we not negotiate on salary only?

Guys
a) Ask yourself how these deals affect you and your family personally

then

b) Ask yourself how they affect our pilot community as a whole

Let your actions/decisions be based on both. We must stick together for any of this to have a desirable outcome..

It is because of this that YOU MUST JOIN THE AOA. YOU CANNOT COMPLAIN LATER ON IF YOU DON'T SUPPORT YOUR GC

This thing has a long way to go....

[AnAmusedReader]

Oh come on Ed, of course they can impose a change to your contract unilaterally. If your salary was increased by 1% you have not had your contract worsened so no judge would say that was a breach of your contract. If they introduced the defo arrangement it doesn't affect your contract.

Two of your sentences were spot on however. "This is the time we must stand firm, and not accept what would be yet another attempt to divide and conquer. Big balls stuff I know, but it's the only way forward."
We need all pilots to be in the AOA. We need all pilots to take an active part in AOA affairs and not just mouth off via PPrune, even though we know that most who do are just sad cases.

Example: dear old deluded slapfaan who probably believes "everybody goes on strike,bringing all operations to a grinding halt.CX beggs all pilots to resume work again..in return for a 50% pay-rise..."

The comapny sits there happily knowing that will never happen and i'd wager that salapfaan would be the first to go to work if a strike was called. How many people in 2001 voted for industrial action but didn't support it? How many after the event said that they hadn't voted for it in the first place when the numbers who did vote for it made it obvious that all the denying members were lying?

Yes we must stand firm, grow our union and grow our balls - the girls too!!

[BScaler]

Once again, my thanks to the GC, who evidently saw the very plain writing on the wall.

Here is my ten cents worth regarding a wholesale renegotiation of this thing.

Let's not even go down the road of voting to bring in lesser conditions for our future colleagues under the auspices of a so-called DEFO agreement. That one just can't be allowed to get through, no matter what sweeteners they offer existing aircrew. We have current provisions for DEFOs in our present contract - let's stick with them. If the Company cannot hire guys on their DEFO freighter deal, then offer the DEFO passenger deal to all new joiner DEFOs, as per the arrangements that were in place prior to the creation of ASL/Cathay Freighters.

Pay really needs to be looked at in isolation, as many members have suggested. A 'self-funded payrise' is not an option. A payrise should reflect the seven years since the last one was had by anybody, and the attendant productivity we have already given them in the intervening period. An element of back-dating should be included to reflect this. In this context, negotiating for a payrise commencing sometime in the future is not acceptable.

RA65 needs to be repackaged to take into account the valid concerns of junior officers in event of an industry slowdown.

I hope that the GC and the AOA President are heartened by the evident unity that the aircrew community has shown in response to the 'best deal' that the Company were prepared to come up with so far. This will strengthen their negotiating hand.

And it should be of no surprise to the Company to discover the depth of feeling held by the majority of aircrew over what they have proposed. I therefore hope the Company illustrates its sincerity in whatever further proposal is forthcoming.

The views expressed here, and in other forums, are in the main reasonable, and simply reflect the position of a pendulum that has swung too far in the Company's favour.

Now is the time for the Company to present a fair deal for aircrew.

[Liam Gallagher]

"Now is the time for the Company to present a fair deal for the aircrew"...

and if they don't????

[cpdude]

and if they don't????

We'll jump up and down and hold our breath til they do.:}

It is what it is. The only thing that can matter is the market and if the expansion is needed.

[ACMS]

Blunderbus:----------good to see you've taken up my offer of a truce.

:ok:

[Jose Jimenez]

Here are some boys (and girls) who know that "One Airline - One Payscale" means something:
"Aer Lingus pilots are planning a two-day strike next week to protest the carrier's plan to set up a base at Belfast International Airport, where the Impact Trade Union claims the proposals for pay and work rules "are less favorable" than in the Republic."
http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=9885

[BlunderBus]

Truce accepted!!! weapons down and hugs to follow.
Now all we need to do is get cx to forge a truce..they've been on the attack for years!:eek:

[pill]

Rostered a fair whack of overtime with a px back to base next roster. I guess the're a little short of drivers. One would think this is a good time to be talking to the company about pay. Also puts the spotlight on the reason for age 65. Nothing to do with pending age disscrimination legislation in HK. What a crock.

[Numero Crunchero]

I am not sure how long you have been in CX. If you have been here a while you will know that CX pays us the courtesy of warning us in advance what they are going to impose...that is what has been happening for the last 15 years. The offered payrises were substantially less than what we asked for. Additionally, the AOA has never sought different payrises dependant on base.

Simply put, we could follow their agenda or walk out. We wanted to achieve the 'best deal' possible. The GC agreed that the 'best deal' is inadequate and so we will now see what our paymasters decide to do/impose.

Pilot turnover(non retirements) has gradually trickled up above the long term average(guesstimate of 1%). I think it would take a mass exodus or industrial action to get pay rises that people think are needed. I don't see us doing the latter so just depends on how much better other airlines are than CX.

Time will tell if CX has correctly read the market for pilots. Management seem to think $92,000 pa in Oz is acceptable in 2008 vs pax FO of $122,000.

[cpdude]

NC, I agree with your post but you must agree that we do have some control over certain items. Such as ASL and the FACA. This is a huge thorn in CX's side IMO...is it not? We certainly frustrate management when we reject these offers and although they can implement most items...some would be a violation of HKG law should they change a contract without our approval.

I say it's time to frustrate them!:)

[ACMS]

Pretty usual reaction from Management don't you think.

"We are withdrawing the offer" etc etc

So far so good:ok:

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

Industrial Update

As already reported by GMA the GC of the HKAOA has, on Tuesday of this week, voted not to support the deal negotiated between the Company and the AOA after 8 long weeks of hard work. This is frustrating for everyone involved especially as we were under the impression that the AOA team remained within the mandate set by the GC. It is also important to clarify that the GC has not turned down a Company proposal. It has turned down a negotiated settlement containing numerous proposals from both sides. We will obviously have to find out, at some point, where the AOA negotiating team exceeded its mandate and why the deal was not supported. In the meantime we are back to status quo.

[elgringo]

"why the deal was not supported"

He is kidding...right?

[cpdude]

The mighty King was surprised us hungry slaves did not take the crumbs being offered. Kings have been surprised before!:}

[ron burgandy]

Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate -JFK, Jan 21,1961

[boofta]

Well CX Managers, you now see the real story on PPrune.
Over 21,000 pilots are watching your every move.
You will have to pay a premium again to attract pilots.
Which airline is going to CRACK first?
Hooray for this forum, the aviation world watches this
daily, all wondering where market forces are going.

[jacobus]

Boofta,

Quite simply unadulterated bollocks..:eek:

[octanecolt]

Storm in Jade Cargo cockpit
By Greg Knowler

Hong Kong - Shenzhen-based Jade Cargo International has effectively grounded two of its four B747 freighters as a shortage of pilots clamps down on operations.

The carrier, a joint venture between Shenzhen Airlines, Lufthansa cargo and a German investment house, has been forced to postpone the planned expansion of its services to Europe and the launch of services to the US.

"To run a 747 aircraft for 16 hours a day, an airline needs 18 or 19 pilots to be on the safe side," Reto Hunziker, Jade executive vice-president of sales and marketing, told Cargonews Asia. He said a pilot was allowed to fly 90 hours a month, which was just four flights to Europe.

Jade Cargo needs up to 64 more pilots, but cannot find any in China, and Chinese regulations make hiring foreign pilots difficult and expensive. "We do not have a single Chinese pilot. The mainland is protecting its crew and the Chinese airlines charge US$250,000 to release a pilot."

[Turn and Burn]

There are things that can be done to throw a little sand in the wheels before calling for a strike, which can be problematic in Hong Kong. If we all opted out of flying the freighters, a significant chunk of the CX operation would be unable to function. We are entitled to refuse to fly the freighter as part of our agreement with the company. That the company has to use threats to get us into the freighters shows the extent of their problem. The company are desperate to get rid of the Freighter Crewing Agreement. Lets concentrate their minds and put a worthwhile price on that agreement.
Don't work G days unless the company is prepared to pay more for our sacrifice. G day flying should be a minimum amount with a multiplier for the hours flown in that day. If the company don't want to pay, I don't want to fly.

[Master Caution]

First company counter strike to our collective dummy spit over COS 08:mad:

NTC just out establishing HKG "C" Scale (previously C scale was only on bases):

Quote:
Therefore, it has been decided to open a Hong Kong Freighter base, which is available to all crew. It will comprise both B744F and B747F positions. Applications may be made with immediate effect.
Conditions of Service will be as follows:-
Salary will be paid in Hong Kong Dollars as per the attached scales. These scales have been calculated at the same percentage of B Scale as all other Freighter Scales (75% for FOs / FEs and 80%/85% for Captains).
Hong Kong based Freighter Crew are eligible for Annual Discretionary Bonus (thirteenth month), prorated for the time based in Hong Kong.
Local Terms apply. Thus Captains will receive a monthly special allowance of HK$24,000 (All Cat D local staff get this) in addition to salary, but no housing or children’s education allowance will be paid.
Other CoS and benefits will be as per Veta HKG local terms, white pages only.
Freighter Crew members are eligible to take a Hong Kong Freighter Base on completion of a period of two years on an overseas base after leaving Hong Kong. Crew members who have never been based in Hong Kong, and those currently based in HKG or who are working a HBR are immediately eligible to take a Hong Kong Freighter Base. The HBR system will continue in parallel with the Hong Kong Freighter Base for the medium term, but the aim is to phase out the HBR.
HBR is HKG Based Roster predominately used by commuting Aussies on a EUR base. At least it provides a Hotel in HKG so now that will be gone.
Therefore: Previously based employees will eventually be forced to HKG on Local terms. Nice precedent:(
NOTE: As I understand it under COS 08 UFO scales/COS this would not have been possible - full expat conditions would have applied to expatriate officers and therefore the CN & FE (same pay as F/O) side of this would probably not have been implemented as above either.
AOA - Over to you for the strategy please

[SIC]

So are you suggesting the next step is for this 'c' scale to be offered to new DEFO on pax fleet in HKG too....:ouch:

[Apple Tree Yard]

I think cos08 mk2 is coming...

[Numero Crunchero]

The plan was for no DEFOs in HKG until all current SOs had been upgraded. Now with no agreed CoS08 I guess there is nothing preventing them from recruiting DEFO's to HKG as they are with the freighter HKG basing.

FYI, UFO scale in HKG would have been around 75% of current B scale salaries(FO1-3) and then increasing to similar level as B scales by UFO5(SFO1 B scale).

[boxjockey]

I think unless the next offer is considerably improved, and I'm quite sure it won't be, it needs to be handled exactly the same as the last offer. I'm sure the company will continue doing things like this to scare and frustrate people, but everyone has to remember that this is probably the strongest position we will be in for some time to come. If we are going to make acceptable gains, now is the time to do it.

box

[Sqwak7700]

Well, I don't know how it would work exactly, but I'm guessing that if you are on this HK Freighter base, then when it comes time to transfer to the Pax fleet, you probably will be treated as a local. You will be based in HK already, so no housing allowance and no education on moving benefits.

You see, the only people on the freighter in HK right now are those with HK based rosters. Those people are still technically "based" in other ports, but they are rostered in and out of HK. So when they transfer, they get the whole shabang. Not so if you take this ****ty HK freigher base. You are better off going to Oasis if that is the case.

In fact, I make a proposal that we rename the HK Freighter Base scheme to the Oasis Crew Transfer Program, or OCTP. Basically, you get Cathay to pay for your rating (54.7 profit, why should anyone else pay it? besided, CX doesn't mind training people) and then you will be in HK to sort out the whole interview process with Oasis. Being based in HK gives you the opportunity to interview and press the flesh with the good people over at OHK in the Gayviator. Then you simply swap one uniform for the other. You go straight to making more than 10K US a month, and Cathay flips the bill. :ok:

[canuck revenger]

Does it not seem strange that CX wanted a vote on the COS08 package? It seems to me that management must have realised that there could not possibly have been a positive vote in favour. That being the case, one has to ask 'why'. Perhaps they wanted the AOA membership to register a 'NO' vote, so they could use that as an excuse to impelement more drastic COS changes, all the while blaming the aircrew for 'not acting in the best interests of the company'. A bit of a paranoia exercise I know...but it does not seem possible that they expected a YES vote...

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

I think they are so arrogant they work out what they are going to do and then seek 'legitimacy' by getting AOA approval. They don't care if they get it but it would be nice to.

They are driven by the very complicated formula of Profit = Revenue - Costs. If you focus on costs enough you forget how to run a business. A payrise would have possibly led to lots of intangible goodwill, but that would have increased Costs you see. And increased costs means less bonus.
So instead, who is going to worry about fuel, OTP, 'helping out'. But thats ok, those increases in costs won't be associated with NR or Kim Joong Phil. Kim Joong Phil costs his salary many times over every year. Every stupid self-aggrandizing decision he makes results in people taking matters into their own hands. Every manager and pilot despises him and cannot believe his incompetence. But the important thing is the zoo keeper likes his 'manchesturian candidate'.

So whilst we have brilliant human resource experts like Kim Joong Phil and Dr do-little (NR) in charge, moronic offers will continue to be made to the AOA. There is nothing clever about this...they are just people in charge of other people's money - their bonus motive is in decreasing costs, not making more money for CX.

[FYI]

ULRequalsSLEEP,

That is classic analysis and so spot on. For this company, it's all about maintaining control and only comparing apples to apples when it suits them. Real modern day man management and the concept of treating the troops well leading to better bottom line results is no where to be seen.

[Rabesh Binny]

From my 14+ years here cost has always taken a back seat to CONTROL. Control at any cost be it financial,morale,anything.

[slapfaan]

Love the last couple of posts here...well said!

"...you can't FOOL all the people ALL the time..." and this "don't-care-about-the crew" attitude WILL come back and bite them in a BIG way ...that's for sure..it's just a matter of time..

Sure the aeroplanes will keep flying, there will be new joiners, but with what experience..and what agenda.Already new DEFO's are admitting that CX is simply being used as a stepping stone...

I can see a REVOLT looming on the horizon..and it's closer than those clowns on the 3/F can ever imagine!!:p