Police Job UK

[VeeAny]

Just found this

http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/2007/08/07/9003818/unit-chief-pilot-uk-flight-crew.html

V.

[BRASSEMUP]

They're always advertising......Just check out their website.

[Bertie Thruster]

.................and if money is not your main incentive...............

[Dupsspud]

:ugh:Premiscare, seem to be a laughing stock, always advertising. Friend of mine has WELL in excess of the requirements but hasn't even been asked in for an interview. Is it because he doesn't have a military (cavalier)background.

[ShyTorque]

So you registered just to try and bait ex military pilots? Well done. :hmm:

P.S. Perhaps they don't get the pilots they need because the salary they offer is how shall we say..." cavalier".

P.P.S. Pr'aps "your mate" has lots of hours but lacks a certain something else?

[Bronx]

Friend of mine has WELL in excess of the requirements but hasn't even been asked in for an interview.
Maybe he ain't got the sort of flying experience needed.
Maybe the applicants who got interviews have.
A whole lot of corporate/charter time around the UK aint gonna count as much as experience of more demanding flying.

military (cavalier)background
Sounds like you don't know much about military flying.

[Bertie Thruster]

Dupespud; how can we comment sensibly if you don't give us some details of the "excess of requirements" your friend has and an idea of his background?

[HillerBee]

They are looking for people. Just sending a resume doesn't give you a job. It's also rather important how the CV is written. There always seem to be a lot of people with all the requirements who can't get a job! Always a friend of a friend. Doesn't really add anything to this thread.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

No matter what your quals, they also want you to be local to the units they support. Unlike other employers, Prem don't appear keen on the concept of travel days for floaters.

[BRASSEMUP]

A bit of a change in personalities at PSNI is that because of low pay?

[detgnome]

I notice that the Sussex job is offering over £48k, which seems to be a bit above the norm. Is that a reflection of the area and associated cost of living or are ASU salaries slowly on the up?

[Basher577]

Having worked Sussex in the past, its a cracking unit with an excellant roster. If I you could get used to drinking shandy It would be perfect.;)

[FayeDeck]

Hey Dupspud.dip**** whatever your name is............

Exactly which stage of military pilot training did you fail?? (Early doors Im guessing).

Feel free come round to my house and give me your "cavalier" speech to my face, I am sure you can be re educated, hey I might even let you see how a professional pilot works for a day.

My tel no is 07854 350666.

I know many good non ex mil guys and you insult them all with your rantings.

In the mean time, stay off pprune you clown.

To brand hundreds of highly trained mil pilots as cavalier is ridiculous, I have been involved in training and examining for a long time and that attitude is not tolerated I can assure you.

As an aside, I would not employ you with that attitude for sure.

If it was in jest, my apols, maybe I shoudnt bite......:sad:

[Staticdroop]

FayeDeck, well said sir:ok:

[lionco]

Dupsspud you do us civy pilots no favours with posts like that.
I am an ex PremiAir police pilot.
Never been in the services. :eek:
The job not only demands certain skills and experience, but also personality/character. If you/your friend had all of the above, believe me, PremiAir would be knocking on the door.
I've met and flown with some great pilots from both sides and, as in most professions, crossed paths with some real prats too. :ugh:

[MightyGem]

Unlike other employers, Prem don't appear keen on the concept of travel days for floaters.
None of the floaters that come to us, live anywhere near us.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Fair go, Gem - it may be that JL was hoping to avoid such expense with his next recruits.

[FloaterNorthWest]

I have heard that the Company policy is now that floaters come from the existing workforce as the pay increase is quite large and it is preferred that floaters have previous Police experience.

The Surrey job is filled so unless you have the qualifications for a Chief Pilot job I wouldn't hold your breath for a floater position unless you have Police experience and no one in the Company wants it.

FNW

[Dupsspud]

Calm down dear it’s a commercial.

No need for the bad language and aggression. I think my use of the word cavalier (courtly gentleman fighting for the Realm) was taken out of context.

I am relatively new to the heli world and I hear on a number of occasions that preferential treatment is given to ex-mil pilots.

Can any operator or individual HONESTLY say that operators don’t give preferential treatment to an ex-mil pilot should that pilot happen to have been in the same regiment?

I am a civilian trained pilot hoping to work for a civilian aviation industry and would like to know whether discrimination exists. In other professions there are laws against it.

To answer an earlier question, my mate has over 3 thou hrs, previous off-shore, utility and charter experience, so I think he has the experience required, granted no police time and probably a good CV?

If I have inadvertently upset anyone then no offence was intended and I apologise unreservedly, please accept my apologies.

Isn’t this forum what it is all about getting answers and discussing aviation related issues, no matter how unpalatable they my be for the proposer or recipient. Hopefully with a little less profanity.

[Bertie Thruster]

...as your friend has offshore experience, his long term intentions for police work were probably questioned (not to mention his sanity)

We hear that UK offshore freelance captains are now commanding up to £1000 per shift.

[yme]

Dupsspud
You don't know much about the industry do you?
I can honestly say that in my opinion there is no discrimination between civilian pilots and military!
The company I work for employ’s both military and civilian pilots, that said, and I can only speak for ex Army pilots, our background lends itself very nicely to police and HEMs work, and there is very little training required to bring us on line. What the industry requires is nothing like corporate or off shore work and can take a fair amount of time to learn. It can be a steep learning curve for the uninitiated.
Yme

[MINself]

It might be that your "friend" whilst having 3000+hrs valuable offshore experience an onshore operator might prefer some experience in their own areas too, ie police/HEMS operations and did he have the minimum P1/Captain hours for said position? Also, the "preferential" treatment you think ex-mil pilots receive might be down to the "preferential" training and experience received by these fellows ;)

[Whirlygig]

I am relatively new to the heli world

and
Premiscare, seem to be a laughing stock, always advertising. Friend of mine has WELL in excess of the requirements but hasn't even been asked in for an interview. Is it because he doesn't have a military (cavalier)background.
If you are relatively new to a particular role, quite often it is better to adopt a more conciliatory attitude and demonstrate that you are willing to learn. Insulting a potential employer is not really considered professional and neither is your use of the word "cavalier" - from the dictionary -


cav·a·lier http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fcavalier)/ˌkævhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəˈlɪər, ˈkævhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəˌlɪər/[kav-uh-leer, kav-uh-leer]
–noun
1.a horseman, esp. a mounted soldier; knight.
2.one having the spirit or bearing of a knight; a courtly gentleman; gallant.
3.a man escorting a woman or acting as her partner in dancing.
4.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) an adherent of Charles I of England in his contest with Parliament. –adjective
5.haughty, disdainful, or supercilious: an arrogant and cavalier attitude toward others.
6.offhand or unceremonious: The very dignified officials were confused by his cavalier manner.
7.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) of or pertaining to the Cavaliers.
8.(initial capital letterhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Cavalier poets or their work. –verb (used without object)
9.to play the cavalier.
10.to be haughty or domineering.

You were not using the "cavalier" in the context of a noun!

Therefore, if your first post had been phrased something like.....

"I've noticed Premiair have been advertising a lot and have wondered why when a friend of mine appears to have in excess of the requirements but hasn't been invited for an interview. Do Premiair (or any other operators) have a preference for ex-military pilots or are civilian trained pilots with the same hours and experience treated equally?"

... you might have had a more favourable response. On the whole, I thought some of the posters were remarkably polite!!!!

I remember a few years ago a Ppruner posting about his "friend's" experience and wondering why the "friend" wasn't getting any work. From what I remember, there was more to it than met the eye!

Cheers

Whirls

[FayeDeck]

Dupspud, apology accepted..................however your attitude absolutely sucks my friend.

For real profanity I suggest you turn up for interview, and then to a unit, with your attitude and biased unfounded views, and await your welcome to this industry.

The offer of friendly advice stands.:E

[BRASSEMUP]

:D:D:D:D:ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

Dupsspud I think my use of the word cavalier (courtly gentleman fighting for the Realm) was taken out of context.


I don't think it was.
You didn't use "cavalier" as a noun, but as an adjective which means 'showing a lack of proper concern' and is derogatory. eg X has a cavalier attitude to flight safety. Y has a cavalier approach to flying.

Your comment was not only offensive to Mil pilots but displayed an ignorance of military flying which, contrary to the impression Hollywood might have given you, is actually highly disciplined.
Even surviving the rigorous selection/training/chopping process to earn military Wings is deserving of respect IMHO, but that's only the stepping-stone. It's the experience mil pilots gain in operational flying thereafter which, perhaps not surprisingly, is attractive to some employers for particular jobs.

I am a civilian trained pilot hoping to work for a civilian aviation industry
Losing the chip would be a good start. It might also make the inevitable unsuccessful applications less distressing if you accept that others had greater and/or more relevant experience.
That doesn't mean accepting defeat. It means being even more determined to overcome obstacles (actual or perceived), doing as much as you can to build up a breadth of experience and being seen by other pilots/potential employers as someone totally committed to a goal and determined to succeed.
There may well be an element of old boy network (there is in most fields), so start building up your own contacts. It can be very useful - but counter-productive if you create a poor impression. eg By making silly comments which antagonise, or preparing excuses for possible failure.

Watch out for opportunities to broaden your experience and grasp them.
Note possible obstacles and work out ways to overcome them.
If you believe you can succeed, you probably will.
If you believe you can't, you won't.

You may dismiss my advice because I have no experience of trying to get a job as a pilot. On the other hand, many years ago, I was a grammar school boy from a small town in Wales with an ambition not only to be a barrister, but to be a barrister in London. ;)


FL

[airborne_artist]

There's no law against selecting the best person for the job, whatever the industry. The idea that a pilot with XX hours is better than one with less than XX hours is cobblers. The effect of selection, training and experience on a military pilot is something that appeals to many employers.

Remember that most mil pilots have passed all their mil training first time, or they get the chop. A self-funded civilian trained pilot can take the exams as many times as they need to get through, at any stage. In the mil a stude gets a max of three bites at one lesson, and if the third ride is below standard they get chopped. Most will have gone through the system needing not even one extra attempt at a single lesson.

[FayeDeck]

Flying Lawyer...thank you for so eloquently making my point more robustly.

I really must get a better vocab:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

I wonder if old dippypotatoe, or whatever his name was, would have something to say if he knew there were female pilots doing the job!

:E

[Sgtfrog]

(V - sorry to change the direction of your post.) Just read AA's post - nearly made some derogatory coment about the suggestion that Mil pilots are better than civies but it begs the question....... In the current civi system, if money is no object, what stops....um... (got to be careful here:E!!) less "able" people getting a CPL? Light blue touch paper..............!!

[Whirlygig]

what stops....less "able" people getting a CPL?

Fred Cross?

Cheers

Whirls

[Sgtfrog]

LMAO! - Nice one whirls!:ok:

[VeeAny]

Sgt

I think problem is that, with enough money to throw at the problem a lot people who perhaps should have taken up flower arranging can eventually get through the system.

We all probably know of some CPL holder that we wouldn't let fly our children around. I know of one 5000hr+ guy who talks a good flight, but can't really handle with any flair, and one sub 400hr guy who's handling is spot on (Yes flown with both)

If on the day a CPL test candidate is not up to scratch I am sure the CAA will have no qualms about failing or partialling them, however if they make the grade on the day, then they become the industry's problem (so to speak).

The onus of the problem is now pushed onto the Chief Pilot, and TREs within any company that chooses to employ said pilot. This will weed out some of the remaining problem individuals.

There always remains the situation were someone has paid lots of money into a company for training to CPL standard and suddenly they need a pilot tomorrow. At this point Mr CP chooses to use said problem individual and it probably doesn't matter how good or bad they are, they are going off to work tomorrow no matter what.

The system isn't perfect, I think thats one reason that some companies favour ex Mil Pilots is as stated earlier, that they are selected through a pretty unforgiving process and if they get through clearly have some kind of aptitude for the job (doesn't they're perfect, but then who is).

All IMHO anyway.

V.

[helimutt]

Bit unfair on Mr. Cross? Isn't he only doing his job? :E

[Bravo73]

what stops...less "able" people getting a CPL?

Fred Cross?


If only... :sad:



:{

[GoodGrief]

Are there really that many undesireables around ?

[Bertie Thruster]

Dupespud. Tell your friend he just needs to get a grip......



http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/nmhsu/morningbrief2.jpg
Morning Brief

[ShyTorque]

Nice one Bertie glad to see you're still keeping up standards and have the CRM issues under control. :D

But aren't you getting a little soft in your old age? - that new briefing aid hasn't got any nails in it! :p

P.S. I propose you put that one up for a caption competition.

My effort:

"Right, you two! I've got the stick, which one of you has the carrot?"

[PlasticCabDriver]

Why aren't they stood to attention?

It's true then, standards in the civilian world are nowhere near good enough :rolleyes: .

[TeeS]

"CRM - CRbloodyM, I'll give you CRM! - You are my crew, my resource and I WILL manage you!!!!!"

[Brilliant Stuff]

Love the drapes, chaps.

What's with the green Overalls?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Brilliant Stuff, if you're very, very poorly and in Lincolnshire or Nottinghamshire (or even a little further afield, sometimes) then the folk in green overalls are the ones Bertie will bring to come and make you better. BTW, according to the rules they're not Crew, they're passengers so perhaps we ought to be talking about PRM...

[Brilliant Stuff]

TAB thanks for that I forgot all about them even though I visited the Wiltshire one a while back.

[Bertie Thruster]

..they are passengers, however they have to pass an initial (CAA approved) Hems Crewman course and subsequent annual line checks.

Plus at least one must be on board to undertake a flight to Hems limits.

.....and they are the customer's (the charity) representatives and Heaven help you if they don't like your style of captaincy (they stay, you go!). It's an interesting CRM environment.

it's just one of the challenges I like about the job!

[J.A.F.O.]

Dupespud

You'd better hope that you don't get a police job, I don't think you'd enjoy even the first shift; especially if you shared your views.

[Thomas coupling]

Finally filled our two vacancies for line pilots. Had to succumb to bloody army walla's unfortunately, but needs must and all that - plus they're probably the best examples of police pilot we'll ever see for our sort of routines here in the hills:} [It pains me as an ex naval aviator to have to say that :(].
Both ex-afghanistan, Apache drivers and QHI's thrown in....does that speak volumes about their former profession or their future one?????:E
Salaries are being re-aligned to industry best practice too, so a happy and settled ship once more methinks (for some anyway:oh:).

[Brilliant Stuff]

Glad to hear you finally managed find some quality bods for your positions. I am told it all looked a bit bleak in the beginning.We are supposed to get an Army chappie as well soon, he is also rather highly qualified.

[BRASSEMUP]

TC well done! :D Fly Army:ok:

[Bertie Thruster]

........will it be "Talitaff" or "Taffiban"?............................





TC; well done! For a moment we thought you were going to have to recruit civvies.:}

[Dupsspud]

TC; well done! For a moment we thought you were going to have to recruit civvies.

Does this not comment not prove a point ladies and gentlemen?

Do you not work for a civilian aviation unit?

Do we all not comply with regulations laid down by the Civil Aviation Authority or is that the MAA?

Can we assume civil pilots need not apply for any posts in North Wales?

To answer a few points, my comments WERE taken out of context, ok my grammar may not be up to that of Byron and the likes. I do have a healthy respect for the military as my father was in the army. Additionally you don’t pay your respects at Ypres if you don’t have any respect for the military (which is more than can be said for the present British Government).

I would like to see more non-testosterone pilots within the ranks of the helicopter market. My limited time in the industry I have come across very few.

Flying Lawyer, you speak some wise words my friend. Totally agree with you, only employ the best person for the job; running a business I would have it no other way.

[Whirlygig]

Does this not comment not prove a point ladies and gentlemen?
No, it was a joke!!!


I would like to see more non-testosterone pilots

There are a few!!! Some even fly for the police!

Cheers

Whirls

[Bravo73]

Does this not comment not prove a point ladies and gentlemen?


The only point that it seems to prove, Dupsspud, is that you can't recognise banter - and that you certainly can't spot a wind-up!


And before you think this is another ex-mil having a crack at you, fear not - I am very 'civvy'. :p

[Thomas coupling]

I've hired a "self improver" in the past and he was excellent - no mil background, but took to it like a duck to water.
Police flying for 'most' police units is 80% boring and 20% very exciting stuff. For us here with our topography, I would go further and say 70/30.
The problem lies within the exciting bit when things go wrong.
In my experience, a mil guy can dip into his/her "experience pool" of having done or seen most everything a chopper can throw at you - and utilise it to best effect. It is usually enough to get you out of the muddle. Civvy guys may be able to do the same. trouble is - when I interview a guy, and he's civvy, his track record is based on rhetoric, not fact because I don't exactly know what courses he/she has competently completed to be honest. With the mil guy, I know of the course and can also ring someone who knows someone who knows them!!! It takes all the guess work out of it.
After all - the Unit/CP/Boss is only as good as the last crash. And the aim is to fly as long as possible without incident!
A good example (which has been the topic of discussion on here recently) is knowing the difference between IVRS and settling with power (or power settling for those afficionadoes who want to split hairs!). Occasionally this job invites trouble like this. Most mil pilots have experienced both.
LTE / LTA is another example. And so on.

[Fortyodd2]

Dupsspud,
Having reached the dizzy heights of Apache QHI, the 2 individuals concerned will have acquired one or two useful little extra skills on the way. Now I'm sure that TC's employers may not have use of their skills with hellfire, rockets or cannon, (sadly) but their experience of operating in very lumpy terrain, at night, on goggles, at high all up weights, single pilot and positioning the aircraft to enable the "sensor" operators to do their job will stand them in good stead. More importantly, their ability to be able to put up with/join in with crewroom banter, make endless cups of tea, cook curries, wash aircraft, spot a wind up, listen to 6 radios and an intercom and keep a smile on their face whilst having to view some of the pretty awful things we as police pilots sometimes come across was probably what got them the job......instead of your "friend".
As Fayedeck pointed out right at the start of this thread, it's not just about how many hours your "friend" might have amassed. At our unit, the insurers insist on a minimum of 3000 hours experience - 50% more than the PAOM requirement - because of the nature of the terrain we operate over.


...oh, and please STOP SHOUTING!

[Bertie Thruster]

Discussing this very subject last week with one of our police/hems floater pilots who had been out of the Army 3 years.

He simply said "Same job, different uniform"

[detgnome]

TC

When you say 'align salaries with industry best practice', would you care to elaborate? (I understand if you don't want to disclose figures..!)

[Daft bat]

At our unit when I arrived we had three ex Mil pilots in fact all from the three different arms. Yes they were all very professional pilots and very much experienced. Sadly due to poor salary's and conditions from a certain company which will remain nameless, we have had a huge turn over of pilots due to them getting better paid jobs with competitors.
We have just lost the last of the ex mil pilots and we are down to two of the finest,as people call then Civvies pilots. So the point is that we are a Police unit with just civvies pilots so I would say it most definitely not a closed or biased industry.
If you can do the job and pass the interview Civvies or ex mil pilots coming into the Police world you will get the same support whatever your back ground.
From early comments it does prove that the Ex Mil can take the banter better however we have now broke our civvies pilots in and they have grasped the level of the humor (IE the gutter):)

[Fortyodd2]

Flungdung,
yes, I'm ex AAC and a police pilot too. Are you saying that your police helicopter doesn't have FLIR? Is not NVG equipped? Ours is, not to mention SPIFR capable- and far better equipped than anything the Army gave me to fly - . All the day to day stuff that I currently do wearing a blue suit is very similar to that which I did in a green suit - except I don't have a big gun strapped in the doorway or missiles on the side and, apart from the odd firework and the nuisance lasers, nobody is shooting at me anymore (yet). The cars still need to be followed, the casevacs still have to get to the hospital, the photo and video recces still need to be completed. Anybody who spent time in a Gazelle on goggles over Belfast, flew Chancellor/Oxbow or served as a 5 commander and can listen to multiple radios at once will feel very much at home in the police role. As Bertie's friend commented "Same job, different uniform".

[Fortyodd2]

Flungdung,

Sorry, I’m not with you. As already stated, we’ve got the NVG and the FLIR – what other bells and whistles – excluding armament – do you mean?? :confused:

Anyone who has just finished as an Apache QHI would have come from "My Generation". Indeed, the 2 individuals concerned are most definitely "My Generation" and probably yours too!

Click here to see where todays Police Helicopters are at: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=285724

[Thomas coupling]

Light twin helicopters together with additional police equipment that directly affects the pilot are not a major hurdle for most experienced mil pilots. 5 days conversion is all that is needed.
Compare this to weeks on a Super Puma / 101 or S61 conversion course.

Without a shadow of doubt, the biggest hurdles to overcome for the budding police pilot (from the mil) is:

(a) Civvy rules, esp; Class1 ops. Understanding the nuances of the perf charts and legal dimensions etc.

(b) Removing the word: "ATTRITION RATE" from their vocabulary.


Detgnome: When I mentioned salaries aligning with industry best practice, I meant that responsible employers would align salaries when they felt that remuneration was slipping behind. Several Units are now doing this...and we are one of them.

[detgnome]

TC, thanks for the answer. Given the amount of discussion on theis forum regarding pay, does this suggest that salaries are on the up then?

[tigerfish]

Please forgive me for I am not a pilot, but I have been involved with Police Aviation for the past 23 years so I guess I do know a little about the subject. In the first instance TC and Fortyodd2 are quite correct in their approach.
It is important to realise that in this arena, the Police are the agency that owns the assets and it is they who pay the bills, ( Even if it can be argued that they do not pay enough ) so they have a right to call at least some of the shots.
From the outset they recognised that the overriding consideration must be that of flight safety. Secondly that they will be required to operate over a very conjested area ( The whole of UK ) 24 hrs a day, in some of the worst prevailing weather that Western Europe can throw.
The only safe way forward was to use highly skilled professional pilots who were used to operating twin turbined helicopters in all weathers and conditions. The legal minima for pilots who wished to become Police pilots was set at 1,500 hours but almost all units decided to se it at 2,000 hrs some even higher!
Remember, those of you that seek to criticise that decision, that all of our machines operate with a crew of 3 ( Or 2 in Devon & Cornwall ) The crew comprises of the Pilot ( 'cos without him or her ) we are not going anywhere, and two Police observers. The Police observers operate all the Police role equipment whilst the pilot flies the mission. The machine is an SPIFR equipped machine although will be operating under VFR conditions. It is a true single pilot operation because the aircraft will not be equipped with dual controls. They are taken out to facilitate the operation of the vast array of police role equipment.
The aircraft as I say will be operating relatively low heights over BUA's and also in very rural areas where visual references may be sparse. The crew must operate as a team under those conditions or disaster may follow. The police observers must trust their pilot implicitly but not be afraid to speak up when unhappy. The Pilot must trust his crew & know them well enough to detect when they are unhappy even before they say so.
Its too late when looking for a vulnerable misper over bad terrain at night & in bad weather, to start wishing that your pilot had more experience!
So know we will NOT reduce our experience requirements, there is a very good reason for them.
But we do employ pilots who have come up through the civi paths and we do employ female pilots, they are just as good as the guys. As one of them said to me recently " Look I am just a pilot who flys helicopters my gender is immaterial" She is right!
I have a fierce pride in what UK Police Aviation has acheived over the past 25years & that is in no small part due to pilots like TC and Fortyodd2. I know TC quite well and would state quite openly that he has moved our service on in huge amounts in recent years. Likewise Ibelieve Fortyodd who I do not know.

Tigerfish

[wobble2plank]

So I have too much testosterone and a 'cavalier' (sp? x 50 Mr W2p!)attitude after spending 18 years flying jelly wopters and 8 of those years flying SAR, Mr DupeSpud?

The source of military pilots is slowly drying up as Government cutbacks reduces the amount of helos on the front line and pi$$es off those who fly them. Many, myself included, jump ship and go and fly aluminium tubes around the skies as the crew(wo)men are prettier (most of the time) and they have coffee machines onboard!!!!

Military flying training is a KNOWN ENTITY. Those that pass through it are also, generally speaking, KNOWN ENTITIES. There are also alot of very experienced civilian trained (not civvies, we are all civvies in this world) pilots who are as good, or better, or worse. It makes very little difference. What does make the difference is your experience, training, sub specialisations etc. Any potential employer will want to see a relevant skills set that is pertinant to his/her operation. This reduces the time it takes to get you 'online' thus reducing the cost. HEMS/PAS is a specialist operation, using multi engined helos operating in confined areas. Not the 'normal' sort of helo operations hence those that leave the military with that background tend to 'slot' nicely into the operation.

I think you have a problem with 'military' as you feel they are taking away the oppotunities that you should be getting as you are 'breaking into' the industry. I feel that this is somewhat misguided as an interviewer would probably tell you to go away and get some experience under your belt. He would not want to give you his big shiny EC135 and, more importantly, his crew. FACT OF LIFE MY BOY!

Until the whole industry drys up and they desperately need pilots and have no one with a better CV you will just have to wait. You seem to be caught in that never ending circle of need experience for job but can't get job to get experience.

Good luck

W2P

Oh, and watch the attitude, it's a small world and you don't want to be burning bridges this early!

[jayteeto]

I wish that my Puma had the avionics fit that our EC135 has as standard!!! Going out in 2km visibility and 600' cloudbase at night without NVG is a rare occurence, but we do have to do it. I have flown NVG on ops in the military, which was difficult, this 'civvie' flying is just as challenging. Usually no time to do any planning, luckily you know your patch in Liverpool. Other units are not so lucky with dark areas and big hills. Would I trust a civilian trained pilot to operate in these conditions?? Of course, with some history to go on. Would I trust a military trained pilot to do the same?? Of course, with some history to go on..............
Look similar? It is identical at first, then one obvious thing kicks in. Where do I get that history from? CVs are pure fiction so I need to talk to people I know and trust. Old mates will tell you if this pilot is an idiot or not. Note, military doesn't mean better :=, it means that strokers can be identified easier. That is why companies will go that way first. Harsh, but understandable.......

[tigerfish]

So that's it then? Endit?

Tigerfish.

[Thomas coupling]

Check your PM's tigerfish.

[BRASSEMUP]

I see Humberside Police are advertising.............U need 3000 hours thou!:eek:

[helimutt]

saw that. was gonna pop round for chat but i'm not qualified. :hmm:

Wonder how many applicants they'll get. They don't do many hours.

[BRASSEMUP]

Only time will tell............;)

[ScrumpyLuvver]

kk it's a long one so get comfy...

May I just say that being an ex-RN snirk and being lucky enough to have been on some wild rides in Lynx's and Sea Kings, I full on salute RN Helicopter Pilots and trust me when I say they got me safely onto stuff that just did not want to be landed on!!!

I am now approaching the first steps on a ladder that you have already begun to climb dudspud. I intend one day to be every bit as good as the guys I admired back in the service and that isn't cavalier, that was calm, safe and comprehensively skilled to deal with anything that was thrown at them. (Shame there are no ships flight deck simulators you can try out on a v.diff setting!!) I am sure AAC and RAF peeps are just as competent. Try not to show your yearning to have been one of them Dud.. I know how it feels, I wish I had been.

Here is something I appear to have learnt ahead of you my friend.. Maybe it is because of my forces background but here goes..

Small groups have long memories.. Small Intelligent groups have longer memories..

It helps to get on well with everyone all the time if possible.. you never know when they will be looking at your CV in the future..

Never annoy ex mil pilots.. they still have friends that fly Apaches.. Admittedly they are nearly all in Iraq and Afghanistan but don't tempt fate (Dud.. That was a joke by the way)

Have the cahones to apologise rather than make excuses.. Better to admit your fault and be forgiven then stand by a daft statement and be ridiculed and remembered for that one thing.. there is a lot in the saying "forgive and forget"... The hole is just getting deeper.. and this peer group is way too valuable a resource to lose the respect of... (Not sucking up here all!! Just being realistic..)

It's not just about experience.. You just have to read the thread on "Chief Pilot Grounded" to learn that... The guy involved must have many k's worth of hours but is still considered an idiot that blames others for his failings..

(Extract!!) If it is the CP in question it not the first time that I know of...I guess people are sick of covering his ample behind....

By the way don't send him west, we don't want him........I came here to get away from him

Small world??

Not having a degree meant I failed to get many a juicy position in IT and it galled but I didn't go around railing the worth of having a degree.. Or belittling it, I worked twice as hard, built up excellent experience and references and finally got to where I needed to be.. earning enough money to get out of an office and on to a CPL(H) course next year!!!

That's my tuppence worth Dud.. Please take it in the spirit of comraderie it is given and like all advice.. take it or leave it.. :-))

Now.. Any of you cavaliers out there feel like sponsoring a nobody with poor quals so I don't have to sell my house to follow my dream??... is that silence I hear and tumbleweed I see?? ahh well.. Next year Cape Town for 10 months lol.. then a life of skintness and uncertainty... with only this thought to keep me warm whilst begging jobs...

"Until one is committed there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one’s favour all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now." Goethe (Bright fella)

[Thomas coupling]

Sorry.....what you after?

[helimutt]

handouts or sympathy? Sympathy u'll find in your spell checker between syphillis and sh*t, LOL!!

Just do it the hard way like a lot of us had to.

[Kalif]

ScrumpyLuvver,

What ever route you take it's a long one but worth while if it's really what you want to do in life.

Ignore unhelpfull posts from people who are already there but forget what it's like starting out.

Good luck mate....:ok:

[handysnaks]

Bl00dy hell you've mellowed Kalif :)
I agree mind. Now, where's that soap.......;)

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Cheers.. Free lunches I have never had, nor never expect but that will never stop me trying for one lol!! :}

Kalif, thank you for the positive stuff.. I have had a good deal offer from Base4 in Cape Town so hopefully I will scrape together enough for PPL(H) in Jan/Feb pre house sale so I can be sure it's all good.. and if it is, Start CPL(H) FI IR path in June July.. ish :)

Jetmax's stuff has been really helpful and being the pragmatic chappy I am, very real. From 0 - CPL(H) and now 1300hrs and working 3 yrs later.. I like them biscuits.. and kudos too the guy he didn't hide the hardships in the middle..

Care to comment on Cape Town as a choice?

After research I was thinking,

Mountains
Coast
Busy ATC
Unpredictable Weather
Variable terrain
and Free accom.. (Friends living there lol)
+ enough money left over for JAA Conv if I have to come back straight away :sad: and a few Uk hrs (20 - 30ish depending on how far I have to tuck into my contingency fund of 20% on top of all projected costs) to build xp and hopefully the trust and realtionships needed to find work.

If not.. well I have lost nothing important.. Gained everything and it will be office hrs :ugh: and hrs building until I get a job flying..

Does that all sound right or are you all laughing at my incredible naivety?? :-))

Anyway, sorry for the thread change, I am slapping my wrists right now...