2007 Puma Crash, Enquiry and Inquest (Merged)

[timmcat]

Local BBC reporting breaking news involving a helicopter crash within Catterick Garrison, North Yorkshire.

Apologies in advance if this should be posted in the mil forum.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Sky news streamer "MoD investigating reports of an Army helicopter crash near Catterick Garrison"

[timmcat]

Sky link here (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1279194,00.html?f=rss) (not much more detail at the time of posting).

[soddim]

BBC report two rescue helicopters and a mountain rescue team despatched.

[MINself]

Some more reports

http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/display.var.1605078.0.breaking_news_helicopter_crashes_repor t.php

[soddim]

BBC confirm at least 8 casualties taken to hospital.

'Close to Catterick garison'.

[Razor61]

Can confirm Seakings from Leconfield and Boulmer are involved.
Hope everyone is okay and the injuries are not too serious.

[harrogate]

Local radio mentioned a possible death, but not cert.

[AHQHI656SQN]

I hope that all those involved make a speedy recovery and that the news of a fatality are incorrect.:sad:

[Never Alert]

Sounds like a busy night. The 202 guys just woke me up coming back to Boulmer a few moments ago.

Touching wood that all onboard the helicopter in question are ok and in good hands.

[RumourMonger]

The Northern Echo has published a phot of an RAF Puma to illustrate its article http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/index.php, They have been advised that this is an RAF aircraft. Iwish they would get their facts right think of the distress that it causes to the families of both Army AIr Corps and those of the Puma crews

[happysod1412]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6937953.stm
12 injured...... speedy recover boy / gals

[Talking Radalt]

According to Beeb some of the 12 are walking wounded, not most.
Here's hoping it is in fact all who are walking wounded.

[Pilot Pacifier]

OMG...

We were tasking right next to them earlier this evening, we left at 20:30 as they were walking to their aircraft (no, I won't be posting the type until it's general knowledge).

My fingers are crossed that they and their passengers are all OK...

:uhoh:

[D-IFF_ident]

Another few sleepless nights as we wait to hear the full story and its outcome. Mine and Mrs Ident's fingers crossed for all involved.

[ATCO17]

Sky just announced two dead.....a sad accident. Thoughts with all familes and friends. RIP

A17

[Craven Moorhed]

Another sad loss.

RIP guys, whoever you are ???
Cold beer, when next we meet !
Condolences to all involved, Sqn & Family........

CM

[c-bert]

Has the type been released yet? Almost 12 hours and still no indication....:sad:

RIP guys.

[c-bert]

Telegraph reporting a Puma.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=TJANZFHMVABC1QFIQMGCFFWAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/08/09/ncrash209.xml

Thoughts go out to 33 and 230. :(

[John Blakeley]

There is now a picture on the BBC News web site so hopefully MOD will end the speculation very quickly!

JB

[Tombstone]

Terrible news, my thoughts are with all families involved.

As for the newspaper speculation...

The photo of the crash site on the BBC news website gives a very clear idea to the type & leaves no excuses for incorrect assumptions.

Per Ardua.

[WeeMan18]

I won't type here the first thing I said when I heard this news and saw the pictures of the wreckage.

EDIT

BBC just said that the MoD have confirmed it to be a 33 Sqn Puma.

Terrible news - condolences to those killed in the accident and everyone left behind. Speedy recovery to the rest.

Weeman

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I've just found out this terribly sad news.

My thoughts are with the families left behind. I hope those injured can make a speedy and full recovery.

[AHQHI656SQN]

http://itn.co.uk/news/09549af394deb8e8af62fd8e1306443e.html

ITN news link above states the aircraft type.

My thoughts and sincere condolences to those family and friends who are touched by this tragedy.

Tom

[AlanM]

Another sad day for the RAF SHF. Thoughts to all on 33 and the Army unit.

[snoopy1107]

Very sad news, my thoughts are with all the families and friends of those involved.

The MoD has released a helpline number for concerned families of service personnel to contact them - 08457 800900.

RIP

[Training Risky]

Hold on, prat at the back here....!

Does the broken cab in the picture not look like the aft pylon of a Chinook?

Let's wait until we hear the ac type from MOD itself!

[Gainesy]

TR, my thougts too. Not yet seen any direct quote from MoD.

[roony]

edit, Wrong incident. sorry.

[mystic_meg]

From the MoD website:
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/TwoServicePersonnelKilledInHelicopterCrashNearCatterick

Updated BBC photo and story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6938070.stm

[Fake Sealion]

Whats Going on?

Eye witness being interviewed on BBC Breakfast TV stated he was watching a "twin rotor" Chinook hovering and saw it fall to the ground like a "sack of potatoes". Also, IMHO - the wreckage photo looks like a Chinook - too "bulky" for a Puma????????

[Cpt_Pugwash]

Gainesy, T-R, turn the pic through 180 degrees to get a better idea of what you're looking at . Seems to be a Puma.

RIP chaps, speedy recovery to the injured.

[Almost_done]

Gentlemen, can I please draw your attention to this link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007360760,00.html), it clearly shows the AC type, so stop the speculation.
RIP Guys, from a Puma fixer.

[ralphmalph]

Rest in Peace.

My condolences to those families affected.

Ralph

[mystic_meg]

Please check post #32 - this should end all speculation.

[Master Gunner]

RIP whoever you may be, thoughts and condolences to family & friends.

Speedy and full recovery to the injured.

Mr C - ex-Puma Crewman

[Stitchbitch]

RIP. A tragic accident. Condolences from a former 33 Squip. A sad loss for the Squadron, Benson and the Forces.

[safetwin]

RIP chaps, both top guys and will miss you both very much.

Disco

[propulike]

Tragic news. My thoughts and prayers go out to all involved; family, friends and Sqn.

May the departed sleep well and the injured recover quickly.

[1under2over]

My sincerest condolences to all of those involved. Awaiting with trepidation for further news of those involved. RIP.

[sikeano]

RIP guys, My thoughts with the Family

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Sad news indeed. God bless fellas, and a speedy recovery to those injured.

Thoughts with the families at this time.

SBG

[Chugalug2]

Shocking news. Thoughts with the loved ones facing up to this dreadful day, and with the injured for whom hope of a speedy and complete recovery. RIP now guys, your duty done.

[Jackonicko]

Sincere condolences to the families and to a great squadron, who have flown me many times over the years. Any words I could utter would be inadequate and trite, but I do send my heartfelt condolences.






One wonders whether an immediate release of the type would not have saved countless families in other rotary communities from unnecessary worry and grief - while I'm sure the Puma wives and children were worried sick even without official confirmation of the type involved.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Little to add to everything that has already been written.
To those friends we have a lost, Mrs SM and I both send out heartfelt sadness and sympathy to their friends and family.

To those injured, we wish you all a speedy and total recovery.

'Tis a sad, sad day for us all, but I know the Air Force family (and the Army also) will pull together, like they have on countless occasions, to do the right thing. God Bless you all.

Like so many who have gone before them, we will raise a glass (or several) to those we have lost and loved.

Mr & Mrs TSM

[AR1]

Sad news - even 15 years out, I still sit up and take a punch in the stomach every time I here this sort of thing.

Condolances to all associated.

As an aside, seeing the long range shoot on the news this morning I thought it was chinook too, instead of the inverted Puma it actually was.

[RADAR Advisory]

Words cannot describe the sorrow that I am feeling. RIP guys, you will be sorely, sorely missed.

Foxy

[TheWizard]

RIP and God speed.






For those that know please be careful what you are posting. So far the MOD has only confirmed the death of 'two Service personnel'-not which Service or Unit, please keep your knowledge restricted until such times as it becomes public.

[alexmac]

A sad day for the SH guys down there, thoughts are with the families and Sqn :(

[TheWizard]

I repeat

For those that know please be careful what you are posting. So far the MOD has only confirmed the death of 'two Service personnel'-not which Service or Unit, please keep your knowledge restricted until such times as it becomes public.


Thanks

[foxbat68]

Hasn't the MOD website confirmed this info now - RAF, Benson, Puma from 33 Sqn?

RIP to the service personnel involved.

[TheWizard]

Hasn't the MOD website confirmed this info now - RAF, Benson, Puma from 33 Sqn?

Aircraft and Sqn involved- yes.
Personnel involved- no
There were 12 people onboard remember.

[Kitbag]

fb68:
Hasn't the MOD website confirmed this info now - RAF, Benson, Puma from 33 Sqn?

the aircraft-yes, but the casualties have not been released to the public yet

[Kitbag]

Apologies to The Wizard, time lags etc

Think he'll get the idea?

[c130 alm]

All the names of the guys who I went through training with that went to Pumas are going through my head. Another sad day for everyone in the RAF. My heart goes out to the families of those involved.

RIP guys.

[Wessex Boy]

All the names of the guys who I went through training with that went to Pumas are going through my head. Another sad day for everyone in the RAF. My heart goes out to the families of those involved.


I went through Strawbs 18 years ago, it still hits me hard when anything like this happens
I echo the above sentiments, RIP guys

[cl5b&scare]

Even after the 11 years since exiting the mob and leaving 33 my heart is still with them, and these events just make me think who, what and why

My heart goes out to all on the fighting 33rd both on the ground and in the air and all their families and the great many friends’ 33 have in the world


MR. Ex 33 Ops

[jayteeto]

Try being blunt. People, they have not officially said which service these people are. By your personal tributes, you are giving too much away. Wait till later and you can put full posts in, please.
As many have said, I will repeat. Even after years away, the loss of an aircraft type you flew for years rips into your heart. Family and friends are going through hell right now, been there and feel so so sorry for you all. If it is any small consolation, every ex serviceman and woman is thinking of you right now. With further tragedy in Iraq, this has been a bad week. A speedy recovery to the injured.

[ShyTorque]

JT2,

I totally agree. I joined my first squadron (230 Sqn) from training in late '79 and quickly made some good friends. A few weeks later, three of them were gone.

[November4]

Names have been realeased on the MoD Website (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/ModConfirmsNamesOfRafPersonnelKilledInPumaHelicopterCrash.ht m)

Group Captain Paul Lyall, Station Commander at RAF Benson, issued the following statement:

"I can now confirm that the Royal Air Force personnel who were killed were, the aircraft's Captain, Flight Lieutenant David Oxer Hanson Sale and the aircraft's crewman Sergeant Phillip Anthony Burfoot. Both came from 33 Squadron, Royal Air Force Benson."

RIP

[WE Branch Fanatic]

RIP Guys. My condolences to the familly and friends.

[Tigs2]

Oh My God!

RIP

My thoughts are with all the families concerned. A very sad day. I have been in a similar situation on the same aircraft type and was lucky to get away with it. I am so sorry and cannot think of words to console you.

Tigs

[Brian Dixon]

Sincere condolenced from the Dixon household to everyone affected by this terrible incident.

Per Ardua

Brian

[helidriver]

Condolences to all the families and friends affected by this tragic incident. I knew 'Taff' and enjoyed much crab/pongo banter whilst he was on his crewmans course at Shawbury. Absolutely gutted, words fail me, yet again.

h

[CAC Runaway]

The names have just been released. RIP Dave mate.

[cargosales]

A very, very sad day indeed.

My thoughts are with the families and friends of everyone involved.

RIP guys and we'll raise a glass or two tonight in your honour.

CS

[heavybuffet]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6939310.stm

RIP

[Jerry Can]

Another sad day. RIP guys. Our thoughts and condolences go out to everyone involved.

Taff it was a pleasure to know you mate. There'll be a cheeky vimto on the bar for you.

Mr and Mrs JC

[Could be the last?]

Take it easy Taff! It was a pleasure to have had you in the Section. Dave, great to fly with you chap.

H

[jollygreenfunmachine]

RIP Taff and Dave. Brought it home when i saw the pictures on the news. Only a short time ago they were here at Shawbs and both were very much liked. Brings it home how quickly we ask our guys to 'grow up' nowadays. Both will be missed. A speedy recovery to all else involved.

[TurbineTooHot]

Rest in Peace chaps.

Me and Mrs TTH wish all the injured a speedy recovery.

Our thoughts are with all at Benson.

TTH

[decco]

RIP Taff, you were a good friend.

My deepest sympathy to family and friends of those involved

[Horror box]

RIP Dave. You were a good lad, always smiling, and a good friend. Remember the 'old days' in Atherton St, many big nights out, and many good laughs. See you later mate.

[psyan]

I never knew you, you were too young and yet you died so close to me. 33 years rotary in service and still airborne now, I grieve for strangers who shared the same life I enjoy now, and you cause me cry in anguish - that there aint no justice.

RIP lads, my thoughts are with you and for those you left.

[ethereal entity]

:{Gents,

I remember you both fondly from your days at Shawbury - Taff, you were always smiling - quite unusual for a guy in training! Dave, I remember telling you to slow down as you flew round the base in your sportscar - you gave me a stiff ignoring if I recall! Both of you were a pleasure to fly with, and I was stopped in my tracks when I heard the terrible news today. Gents, remember always that a dream does not ever die, but sees you into eternity , so keep flying, and I'll see you one day - I'll call 'in' when I'm there.

EE

[Spurlash2]

So very, very, sad.
Thoughts with families and 33.
S2.

[Thierry130]

The SH boys and girls are having a raw time out East at the moment, both in the front and rear, and this is such a particular tragedy on "home turf". Thoughts are with you all and, as everyone says, very best wishes to those who were injured for a speedy recovery and to the families of those in mourning and those at hospital bedsides. God Speed.

[neilmac]

A great Sqn and a top station suffering a loss, thoughts with family and friends.

RIP

NM

[paully]

Two brave men doing a wonderful job. They will be missed.

Rest in Peace Lads

[pedroalpha]

I am so sorry. A brilliant squadron and a wonderful aircraft. I have great memories of fantastic times and lifelong friends on 33 in the '70s. Sadly, we lose some friends along the way but they are never forgotten; huge respect to those that have departed and my thoughts to those that carry the banner onwards in these difficult times. See you on the next deployment.

Pedro

[HallamPilot]

Just found out about Taff. I am in total shock and can't believe he is gone.

I had many laughs at Marham TPF with Taff. As has already been said, he was always smiling (unless he was practicing rugby tackles from behind on his unsuspecting victims on the hangar floor!).

The world is a poorer place for his loss. My condolences to his family, the Squadron and friends of Taff and also those of Flt Lt Sale.

HallamPilot

[Dominoe]

Keith T and I had the honour and pleasure of teaching Taff in his early days as an aircrew student. He had all the qualities one could ask for. Intelligence, ability, determination and a Welsh gift of the gab. But above all that I will particularly always remember Taff for all the extra special quality that made him a great potential Crewman. I can`t begin to tell you all how much the world is a much sadder place without him.

[Strobin Purple]

RIP guys, from an ex 33 mate.

Loyalty.

DM

[chumley31]

Taff,

You were a great lad to have in the Marham Bulls, always there with a ready smile and great outlook on life.
As I said when you left TPF, if you don't make it as a crewman we'll have you back in TPF.

Sadly missed by all who knew you. RIP.

[cornish-stormrider]

RIP Gents, Thoughts and Prayers are with your families and friends.

[R 21]

A totally tragic loss

RIP fellas,

Flying friendly forever

[OverTq]

Gutted. (33 Flt Cdr in the 80's)

[Neeps]

You'll be missed Dave.

Thoughts are with both families.

[hibbs007]

RIP guys, condolences to all family and friends and to 33Sqn both air and ground – still hits me hard, every one, even after years out of the blue suit as I’m sure it does many others.

[Nomad72]

Absolutely gutted. Stopped me in my tracks yesterday. God speed guys and I hope the flying is just as good up there. Only met Dave once but he seemed an absolutely diamond Gent.

Thoughts very much with the injured and the relatives left behind.

[Roadster280]

RIP both. Been out a while, but spent many an exercise with 33.

Loyalty.

[Pilot Pacifier]

From the Chinook crew of Vortex 458 who saw you walking to your aircraft and waved, we salute you all...

RIP guys, our thoughts are with you, your families and your friends...

[St Johns Wort]

'The universe is so vast and so ageless that the life of one man can only be justified by the measure of his sacrifice'
Pilot Officer V A Rosewarne 1940

Taff, Dave, It was a pleasure and is such a shame that you were taken from us when there was so much for you still to do.

Bobby, Gods speed in your recovery.

[tezzer]

Un-related, but I have spent the day burying a boy from our village killed in action in Afghanistan, as a result ot taliban action.

How easy it is for us mere members of the public to dismiss the deaths of military personnel, until it is either a loved one, a colleague, or just some one we once knew.

Please God, put an end to the bloodshed and loss of life, tonight it all seems so pointless, truly it does.

Rest In Piece my heros.


A civvy.

[PC7anyone?]

Didn't know the guys, but many happy years on the Puma and a fantastic tour at 33 (2ic AMF). It rips my heart out every time I hear of young men dying doing what I loved so much. There for the grace of God go I.
All my thoughts to families and friends.
RIP

[BLEED-AIR]

Outstanding guys Dave and Taff your presence will be sadly missed at Elwood our thoughts will be with family,colleagues and your many friends. Very sad news for 33 and a genuine loss to the military service. A pleasure to have known you both. R.I.P.:sad:

[doodledog]

:ugh:

BigBlueCar - not overreacting at all. I am not usually fuming mad at the TV, but tonight I felt driven to call BBC complaints on watching the local (Yorkshire) 2230 news bulletin. Presenter correctly reported a third death IN ADDITION TO THE TWO PILOTS ALREADY IDENTIFIED!! I was so incensed, I switched channels to the BBC Cumbria report (we straddle the regions) to find 100% accurate report containing correctly attributed crew photos and good footage. When the info is out there, why oh why can they not get it right and stop unnecessary grief to the relatives and friends. Sloppy journalism at its very best.:*


Not a Helo mate, but big condolences to all concerned, and speedy recoveries to all those still in hospital - at least WE know who they really are!

[Scooby303]

One of the best friends anyone could ask for. Larger than life itself and yet down to earth. This world is worse off with out him. My thoughts are with both friends and family....Miss you mate.

[Cragrat]

My sincere thoughts and wishes to Taff's family. I had the pleasure of Taff's friendship and wit through Halton and Cosford, just glad we had the chance to catch up recently. A devastating loss of a top bloke and contageous personality, you'll be missed welshman!
Sleep well.
Wisey

[Spacer]

Even more sad news :(
MOD Link (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/PrivateSeanTaitDiesFollowingPumaHelicopterCrash.htm)
RIP Fellas

[cooheed]

RIP fella's. You and your succesors continue to make a difference. Condolonces to family and friends.

[Tigs2]

To the young mans family, Private Sean Tait of The Royal Regiment of Scotland.
I promise you that even in two months of service, your son had encountered more camaraderie than ever in his life. He was serving his country and he loved what he was doing, I write to you as an ex serviceman with a son of a similar age. I used to be a pilot on the aircraft type that your son so sadley lost his life on. Rest assured the crew were the best trained in the business, I and hundreds of others join you in mourning the loss of your son, as we mourn the Death of the Captain and the Crewman so much. We cannot console you, so I will not, but I assure you that I still try to find a way to bring you and your family some peace through my prayers. My thoughts are with you:(
I can only offer you my support as a young man from Glasgow (South) who tried to choose a simiilar path

[wokkameister]

I had the pleasure of being Taff's instructor at Shawbs, and a mate to boot. A better guy you couldnt wish to know.
The last time I saw him was over several beers in Wallingford and he was in fine form. Thats how I will remember him.
His leaving us is a huge loss for everyone whose life he touched. My sincere condolences to his family.

Rest in Peace Mate.

[old-timer]

A very respectful post Tigs2, I salute you all - mil' personnel past & present, top people one & all, to the end.
Deepest respects to family, colleagues & friends.

[UnderPowered]

This is an absolute disaster. The brave souls of the SH force and the Army, who sacrifice so much already, did not deserve this.

30 May 2003, I flew Dave Sale in my Jaguar.

13-15 July 2007 we were partying together at RIAT.

My last memory of him was him living life to the max (and beyond!) at the Herc party, life and soul that he was.

Rest in Peace, me old, although I'm willing to bet that you're taking the place by storm up there. Hope to relive some of our moments when I join you on the flipside.

I'd appreciate a PM with funeral details, as and when.

[27 Sqn Association]

For all those that do not already know Dave's funeral is to be held on Wednesday 22nd of August @ 12pm at Norton Parish Church, on the green in Norton, near to his parents, followed by a cremation at Teeside Crematorium and a wake at Norton Hockey Club on Station Road, Norton....family flowers only please, all donations in Lieu if desired to the RAF Benevolent fund C/o Crake & Mallon, Funeral Service, 45 Norton Road, Stockton, TS18 2BU.

[helidriver]

If somone could pm me Taff's funeral details I would appreciate it. Thank you.

h

[Lemmingboy]

Shocked is the only way to put it. Shows just how fragile life is. Went through Shawbs with Dave and a person more ready to go out of his way to help his mates you will never find. The tribute to him on the RAf homepage is very fitting. RIP mate and have a beer waiting for me!

Your Navy Pal.

[XL319]

Didn't know the guys, but always very sad to hear of such events. Deepest sympathies and condolences to their families and friends. RIP

[snapper41]

Helidriver;

Check PMs

[Nil nos tremefacit]

RIP. Another tragic waste.

[Winch-control]

A tragic loss. My condolences to two fine people lost. I also feel for them all....

[jumpjumpjohn]

Dave and Taff,
I still can't believe that I'm never going to see either of you again, the whole thing just doesn't seem real. 33, Benson and the world at large are sadder places with your passing. We had a few drinks for you on Thurs out in theatre, and we will have a lot more in the coming weeks.
Words just can't do my feelings at the moment justice - love to you both and I'll see you on the flip side. Save a space at the table.
JJJ
PS - For all those who knew Dave, his Facebook wall is still open and I know that the family are reading the messages. Further confirmation of what a tragic loss this is.

[swerve]

Just read in todays Daily Mail that the enquiry has been handed over to the Civ police by the MOD - anyone shed any light on whats going on?

[seanbean]

"Lifted" this from a press cuttings service. From the Daily Mail:

Police launch criminal probe into fatal RAF crash
POLICE were last night callled In
to take over the investigation of
last week's RAF helicopter crash
which killed three servicemen.
The Air Force had launched its
own inquiry, but the probe has
now been halted by senior military
officers.
They have asked local police to
take the lead and investigate
potential criminal offences. The
Puma transport helicopter
came down outside Catterick
garrison in North Yorkshire last
Wednesday during a low-level
training flight.
Sources close to the inquiry
say detectives would be looking
at whether the helicopter was
being flown dangerously fast as
it came in to land.
The helicopter's pilot, 28-yearold
Flight Lieutenant David Sale,
and crewman Sergeant Phillip
Burfoot, 27, died In the crash.
Army recruit Sean Talt, 17, from
Glasgow, died later from his
injures. He had joined up just
four weeks earlier.
Eight other personnel were
injured, three seriously. The soldiers
are thought to have been
from the Royal Regiment of
Scotland.

[green granite]

From MOD web site

Following an initial investigation by the Board of Inquiry, the Convening Authority has decided that the Board of Inquiry should be suspended at this stage pending further investigation by the North Yorkshire civilian police authorities, which we will fully support.

No mention of criminal activities, but cant imagine why they would be investigating unless there was a suspicion of something untoward, but as for "a source close to the enquiry" I think it means "I don't know anything so I'll just make it up"

[adminblunty]

From MOD website:
Police investigation into Puma helicopter crash15/08/2007A Royal Air Force Board of Inquiry was convened at RAF Leeming, North Yorkshire, to investigate the circumstances of a Puma helicopter crash that occurred at Catterick Garrison on 8 August 2007.
Following an initial investigation by the Board of Inquiry, the Convening Authority has decided that the Board of Inquiry should be suspended at this stage pending further investigation by the North Yorkshire civilian police authorities, which we will fully support.
The aircraft involved in the crash was a Puma Helicopter from 33 Squadron, RAF Benson. 12 personnel were on board, three from the RAF and nine from the Army. Three personnel were killed; Flight Lieutenant David Oxer Hanson Sale and Sergeant Phillip Anthony Burfoot, both from the Royal Air Force, and Private Sean Tait of The Royal Regiment of Scotland.

[rmac]

GG - You couldn't make it up

Can anyone explain if there are any circumstances where a professional BOI should give way in an accident investigation to police investigators. Surely its logical that when the pro's figure out the cause the police can act if necessary, or at the very least a parallel investigation ?

[Climebear]

rmac
Can anyone explain if there are any circumstances where a professional BOI should give way in an accident investigation to police investigators.

The simple answer is every occasion. When a police investigation has been initiated (in this case because there was a death (3 deaths)) a BOI has to be suspended. Moreover, if the BOI discovers anything that could lead to a criminal investigation then the Board's president is obliged to suspend the Board and report the matter to the relevant police authorities. The key issue revolve around Police primacy and the fact that evidence taken by a BoI is not taken in accordance with the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE) and, therefore, inadmissable in a court of law.

Parrallel investigations are not permitted as there is a possibility that a BoI could predjudice an ongoing police investigation. The last BoI into a fatality (not an aircraft crash) that I sat on was suspended for nearly 2 years while police investigated and the CPS decided on wether to press charges (they did not).

There is nothing suspicious about what has been reported here. The Police are mandated to investigate any sudden death (hence the closure of motorways following a fatal accident because the area is automatically a crime scene). The investigation will first ascertain if there is the potential for a criminal act; if there is not then the scene will be handed back to the military. This is the normal course of events for post crash management.

[corklad]

Just heard the tragic news today as I'm over in the states. Totally shocked and amazed at this news. I remember Dave fondly from my days at St. Aidan's College, Durham Uni. Great bloke and such a character, life and sole of the party!

RIP mate :ok:

[green granite]

Thats all very well Climebear, but who in the police has the expertise to determine the cause of an air crash? And surely without a cause, they cannot say if it was due to criminal action, especially if 3rd party action has been ruled out?

[Climebear]

The Police can draw on a whole range of expertise from outside - this aircraft incident is no different (in this aspect) from a fatal civilian aircraft incident and, from an investigative view point, similar to, say, a train crash.

This expertise can come from military sources as well.

The key point is that it remains a Police investigation until the time that they (or the Procurator Fiscal in Scotland) are content that there is no evidence of a crime.

[green granite]

Sorry Climebear I was assuming that the RAF/AIB crash investigation teams were part of the BOI and as such had been withdrawn I stand corrected, thanks. :ok:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Following an initial investigation by the Board of Inquiry, the Convening Authority has decided that the Board of Inquiry should be suspended at this stage pending further investigation by the North Yorkshire civilian police authorities


Surely that's the clue. The BoI/Convening Authority won't have done this on a whim!

[Tigs2]

Whatever!

I feel that as this thread will be being read by the families, then this is no place for such discussion. We have lost THREE fine young men. The subsequent investigations are irrelevent as they will not bring these people back, and as for the media reporting that the helicopter was coming in to fast to land, then who the hell can vouch for that with any degree of authority.

Further condolences to the families, please ignore this claptrap. I know for one that your sons/partners were the best trained in the world, and having flown the same aircraft, I can also tell you that they absolutely loved their job, the young soldier included. RIP see you in the big bar in the sky later lads.

[Scooby303]

I must agree, this is no place for this sort of discussion, or leading any ideas, some which may be based on fact and experance, but none the less, the press look at such forums and it leads to all sorts of rubbish been broadcast. I think this talk is for one to one converstions, not for the public forum, where anyone can see it!!

[the_easy_life]

Funny how some peoples ears seem to prick up when they think they hear of a scandle. To those people I say sod off, those men were hero's and i know for a fact were incredibly professional aircrew. To the boys who died, RIP, we'll meet again. To the surviving boys down the back i wish you a speedy recovery, and to bobby its a long road mate, but im with you every step of the way.
Captain socks

[ollers]

How is Bobby getting on now, hope its good news?

[adminblunty]

Nearly 2 years since this happened and no news.....

[Hangar_9]

Read post 131 :(

[adminblunty]

A very sad situation without a report to explain it.

[SilsoeSid]

I always wonder if the statement;

I feel that as this thread will be being read by the families, then this is no place for such discussion.

...is actually true.

Is it part of the visiting officers brief, 'Sorry Mr/Mrs Xxxx ..... Oh! And by the way, if you want to know any more please log onto www.pprune.org'


Somehow, I would like to think that my comrades' family and friends would have more on their minds than an internet forum, that by its own name is run on rumour, speculation and simple interference!

If information from here is being passed onto the families by ppruners, then surely they are the ones at fault.

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry Scooby, It was just a simple question. :eek:

By the way perhaps you should have bothered to RTFQ in the first place.
As you clearly have difficulty in understanding, the question simplified was, 'Is it true to say that as families read this thread, this is no place for discussion?'

As the meerkat on TV says....simples. http://www.comparethemeerkat.com/sites/default/files/testimonials/profile-alek_passport.jpg




p.s. No bully boy capitals from me, simplescoobs! Maybe I happen to know more 'facts' than you are privvy to.

[SilsoeSid]

...and then the bully boy scooby303 deleted his bullying shouty post and hid under a rock.

In future scoopypoo, practise what you preach!
Oh, I see you did! :p

[Scooby303]

Dear Mr SilsoeSid,
Firstly I think I should apologize for "rant" yesterday morning! However let’s not make this a pi**ing contest. I am man enough to say sorry when needs be.

Secondly I did not delete my thread so thank for the "scoobypoo" and other mature references. .

Thirdly, let’s not forget what this thread is about. 3 people taken from us in their prime and how we remember them!

Let’s just leave it at that shall we?

[DaveyBoy]

North Yorkshire Police issued a statement in March:

North Yorkshire Police : RAF Helicopter Crash August 2007 (http://www.northyorkshire.police.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1435)

[vecvechookattack]

I think that most people who need to know, know why the SIB, Police, MOD Plod etc etc were involved in this tragic accident. If you don't know why they were involved then you don;t need to know.

The correct proccess has been applied, the Police investigated and submitted their investigation to the CPS who in turn decided that there was no benefit in proceeding with the case any further. The inquest will be held IDC and until that is made public (if it ever is) then we should leave it at that. This accident is very sensitive so lets just leave it alone and wait until the inquest is held.

[Cows getting bigger]

VecVec, firstly I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

However, if the system is ever to maintain (regain?) the faith of a wider audience, it must be able to explain, with absolute clarity, why certain elements need to be treat with sensitivity. There are other crashes where a lack of transparency has created great speculation (and possibly more damage) that the truth would have. As an ex-military man I stand by the "need to know" principle. Like you, I await the outcome of the BOI and any inquest.

[Mick Strigg]

VVHA - Very succint, well said.

The Coroners Inquest will be taking place in the Autumn. Inquests are always held in public, but never produce a report, just a verdict. However, as it is held in public, the press are free to report it all.

[Tappers Dad]

SilsoeSid

Is it part of the visiting officers brief, 'Sorry Mr/Mrs Xxxx ..... Oh! And by the way, if you want to know any more please log onto www.pprune.org'

Well it was our VO that did tell us about pprune a few days after the Nimrod crash, to look at the condolences thread. But we did look at the technical thread as well.

I printed off all the condolences thread and we did get some comfort from it. As for the technical thread I am sure you all know how useful that proved to be.

Sorry to butt in to this thread but I needed to say it.

[CirrusF]

I think that most people who need to know, know why the SIB, Police, MOD Plod etc etc were involved in this tragic accident. If you don't know why they were involved then you don;t need to know.



Unless there was some (unlikely) form of enemy or terrorist activity involved, this sounds suspiciously like some sort of cover-up to me.

I have witnessed first-hand strenuous attempts to cover up cockups, incompetence, dishonesty with the "need to know" argument, and in one case with the issue the far more insidious and fatuous "Public Interest Immunity Certificate".

[Ewan Whosearmy]

BGG

And so it should, IMO.

The involvement of the Police and CPS suggests *suspicion* or evidence of some form of criminal activity, and the CPS's decision not to proceed with a prosecution has clearly been made not on the grounds of lack of evidence, but on the grounds that it would serve no purpose (the inference being that one or more of the individuals is now deceased).

Accordingly, provided that operational security is not compromised, the general public has every right to know what led to the loss of an aircraft and the involvement of the Police and CPS, all of which are funded by the taxpayer.

[[email protected]]

Ewan - I agree, there is no point in getting precious about this incident - most rotary guys and girls have a very good idea what happened and it will hopefully serve as a salutory lesson to us all.

The coroners inquiry will give a verdict but is unlikely to apportion blame and, as you say, such blame would likely serve no purpose (except possibly as a mechanism for further litigation). At least all the families of those involved will hear all the evidence and be able to make their own minds up - I hope they are prepared for some of the journalism that follows though.

[vecvechookattack]

Totally agree crab...... But I think its going to be bloody, very unpleasant and very very upsetting and embarrasing for the RAF. As you rightly state, at least the families will at last know what happened.

[[email protected]]

Ewan - heard today that maybe no further action was taken because other persons in the supervisory and management chain may have been implicated. If a wazzing and zooming ethos existed then it didn't just come from one person:(

[vecvechookattack]

A helicopter crash which killed three people was caused by an RAF pilot "showing off," an inquiry has ruled.
Flight Lieutenant David Sale, 28, was flying the 170mph Puma "dangerously fast and low," it concluded.
And a senior RAF source said he was "doing stunts a bit like a motorbike rider performing wheelies".

Flt Lt Sale died in the crash along with loadmaster Sgt Philip Burfoot, 27, and Army trainee Pte Sean Tait, 17. Nine other passengers were injured.
The pilot would have faced criminal charges had he survived.
And relatives of the victims are now expected to sue the Ministry of Defence for millions, claiming a breach of its "duty of care".
The £20million Puma, call sign Bravo Zulu, was from the RAF's 33 Squadron based at Benson, Oxfordshire.
The troop carrier was deployed two years ago to the huge Army garrison in Catterick, North Yorks, to help teach rookie squaddies how to SAFELY operate with helicopters.
Witnesses saw it travelling low and fast at Catterick before it pulled up, then crashed, the joint police and RAF inquiry revealed.
RAF fliers in a Chinook had radioed the Puma crew to caution them to "calm down".
The RAF source put the blame squarely on Flt Lt Sale, adding: "There was no mechanical failure."
Pumas are used as battlefield helicopters to provide tactical troop and load movement by day or night.
They can carry 16 fully-equipped soldiers or up to two tons of freight.
An MoD spokesman said last night: "Our thoughts and sympathies remain with the families, friends and colleagues of Pte Tait, Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and all those who were injured in this incident.
"The RAF authorities will decide whether internal action should be taken once evidence is received from North Yorkshire Police

[Data-Lynx]

This is John Kay in the Sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2585067/Helicopter-three-died-as-RAF-show-off-pilot-did-stunts.html)who has it as an 'exclusive' but does not identify the 'RAF source'.

I intend to stick with the MoD spokesman who said:Our thoughts and sympathies remain with the families, friends and colleagues of Pte Tait, Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and all those who were injured in this incident.

[[email protected]]

Has the inquest actually started or has this Journo jumped the gun somewhat?

Not that I was expecting responsible journalism from a Red-Top:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

Couldn't agree more. Despite what this chap did, he was a fellow Officer and aviator and I for one would hope that if one day I fcuk up (again) then I would have the support of my fellow aviators.

Rest in Peace guys

[Cows getting bigger]

Someone should be hanging his head in shame.

[Mick Strigg]

The RAF haven't done an inquiry; the BoI is still suspended! The only body that has conducted any investigation in to this accident is the North Yorks Police and they are presenting their findings at the inquest.

If someone has opened their gob to the press (for money) then they need hanging!

[you'llneverguesswhat]

I echo the above thoughts. But they are not the only one that needs to look intrinsically. Post accident a letter sent by ex co JHC was in disgustingly bad taste, especially after he wanted no gossip or jumping to conclusions (I suppose I cannot say what I think of him)

[Airborne Aircrew]

I think we have all done things in the air that, in the cold light of "older", were... inappropriate? I can attest to where... ohhh... a wake was left down a reservoir that scared the crewman, (me), who was sat in the door facing backwards in Puma in a 16 seat fit with the doors open to impress the TA lasses in the back. The pilot was one of the most competent low level pilots I have ever flown with... But it was un-nerving to say the least - the subsequent "in the weeds" flying on the same few flights had me wondering just how many inches the tips were from the ground as we cut around the subsequent contours. To the pilot's credit he immediately reigned in his flying when I informed him that, while the ladies were impressed with his ability, he was scaring his crewman.

With the Mull thread in mind, this was the same pilot who I voice marshalled 1000 feet up a cloud covered hill sideways in Scotland to recover a lost patrol... About half a mile of a couple of hundred feet visibility while map reading by contours to find their grid reference. He never strayed from his voice commands.

He was a fine pilot... and if you are watching this and recognize the scenario PM me... You have my utter respect.

[Jackonicko]

There's a fine line, surely, between 'showing off' in the way outlined in some of the previous posts, and the kind of spirit and personal pride in one's own expertise which should surely be the hallmark of the military aviator?

Isn't there an inevitable risk that the line might sometimes be crossed?

Or isn't there always the risk that when familiarising troops with helicopter operations in the safety of the UK, that there will be a temptation to make their experience as 'dynamic' as it might be under operational conditions?

Flight Safety might be best served by recruiting 'balanced introverts' - whereas, for sound military reasons, doesn't OASC look for the 'balanced extrovert'?

Of course there should be some navel gazing after any fatal accident, and we should do our utmost to prevent them, and to try to avoid any repetition, but could we not do so without hysteria, without involving the Police and the CPS, and without slinging mud at dead aircrew?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

could we not do so without hysteria, without involving the Police and the CPS, and without slinging mud at dead aircrew?


Jacko,

With respect, your take on this seems a little too soft - even if this crew couldn't tell by themselves where to draw the line between "spirit and personal pride in one's own expertise" and showing off, all they had to do was take the friendly advice apparently offered by another helicopter operating nearby (whatever the Puma crew was doing must have been pretty outrageous for the other crew to feel they had to say something). To ignore such advice is pretty crass - if this is what happened - and if others are to learn from this tragic and wholly preventable accident, then surely we should not shy away from a frank discussion as to how it went so wrong on this occasion. This is not the same as mud-slinging, which suggests unjustified criticism for the sake of it.

[vecvechookattack]

Gazette Live - News - Local News - Compensation claim after helicopter tragedy (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2009/09/26/compensation-claim-after-helicopter-tragedy-84229-24787635/)


SOLDIERS injured in a helicopter crash which killed a Teesside comrade have launched a claim for compensation.
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/gazettelive2/mar2009/6/3/flight-lieutenant-david-sale-330222830.jpg
Flight Lieutenant David Sale, 28, from Norton, the aircraft’s captain, was killed along with crewman Sergeant Phillip Burfoot and Private Sean Tait of The Royal Regiment of Scotland when their helicopter crashed in a grassy field west of Catterick Garrison on August 8, 2007.
An RAF inquiry was launched following the crash but suspended as soon as an investigation by North Yorkshire Police began.
Christopher Hamilton, John Falconer and Dahrll Duncan, who all live in Scotland, are reportedly demanding up to £300,000 each from the Ministry of Defence for ‘‘injury, loss and damage’’ after they were forced to quit the Army on medical grounds.
A writ has been lodged at the Royal Courts of Justice in London.
At the time of the crash, eyewitnesses reported the aircraft ‘‘misfiring’’ before turning on its side and dropping ‘‘like a sack of potatoes’’.
Last month acting assistant chief constable Steve Read, of North Yorkshire Police, who led the police investigation into the crash, said: ‘‘Conclusions regarding the cause of the crash can only be properly drawn after all the evidence has been heard at the inquest
The Crown Prosecution Service reviewed a file of evidence concerning the deaths of Flt Lt Sale, Sgt Burfoot and Pte Tait.
In March this year Liz Reid, reviewing lawyer, CPS special crime division, said: ‘‘I considered whether there was sufficient evidence to prosecute either the co-pilot or the Army officer who had placed Private Sean Tait on the flight that day, for the offence of manslaughter by way of gross negligence of any or all of the victims.
‘‘For this offence the prosecution would have to prove that the individual concerned owed a duty of care to the individual victim, that they breached that duty of care and that the breach was a more than minimal cause of that person’s death.
“We would also have to prove that the breach was so bad as to constitute gross negligence.
‘‘Having carefully considered all of the evidence I concluded that there was insufficient evidence to charge either of these individuals with manslaughter by way of gross negligence.’’
An inquest into the deaths of the three service personnel will be held on October 5 at Harrogate Magistrates’ Court. It is expected to last three weeks.

[helen-damnation]

I saw the Sky News report on the 2007 Puma crash inquest and they played part of CVR tape.

Not withstanding the rights and wrongs of that in public, I thought I heard an aural "master caution" or similar. Having flown the civvie Puma, I wondered if anyone can provide more info on what it was as I try to understand what happened.

Are there any copies of the transcript or accident report available to those of us now in a different uniform?

Thanks,

H-D

[Tiger_mate]

The recording is available on the Sky News website.

The warnings heard are "AP" Autopilot & "Low Height". Without knowing were in the final sequence the recordings are from they are of little use. The AP caption is often intermittant and does not mean that the AP has dropped out and Low height is dependent upon RadAlt bug settings and therefore in isolation is of little consequence. Makes for an apparently good news report but if looking for factual information you should disregard this without having further facts. No idea if the post accident report is in the public domain yet, but they usually get released eventually.

Recording link (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Puma-Helicopter-Crash-Near-Catterick-Garrison-Cockpit-Recording-Played-To-Victims-Families-At-Harrogate-Inquest/Video/200910115400037?lpos=video_News_in_Video_Home_Region_1&lid=VIDEO_15400037_Puma_Helicopter_Crash_Near_Catterick_Garr ison_Cockpit_Recording_Played_To_Victims_Families_At_Harroga te_Inquest)

[helen-damnation]

Thanks T_M,

As you say, news report and fact can often be confused in the media mist!

H-D

[deeceethree]

I fear that the outcome of this inquest will not be a good one for the crew of the Puma, if that recording is anything to go by. Really sad. :(

[extpwron]

Crash crew's last moments heard

BBC NEWS | UK | England | North Yorkshire | Crew laughed before fatal crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8290054.stm)

[Spanish Waltzer]

dc3 - I dont think any of the crew of the puma are in much of a position to care one way or another about the outcome of the inquiry. :( :(

[airborne_artist]

SW - I understood that the co-pilot survived?

[vecvechookattack]

I fear that the outcome of this inquest will not be a good one for the crew of the Puma, if that recording is anything to go by. Really sad

I fear that the outcome of this inquest will not be a good one for the RAF, if that recording is anything to go by. Really sad.


You must remember that an inquest is not there to apportion blame.....but a CVR is

[Spanish Waltzer]

AA - yes you are correct - sorry if my post was misleading. I was simply replying to dc3's comment and suggesting that there will never be a 'good' outcome to the inquiry or anything else about this tragedy for the surviving pilot, passengers or families. Remember too that the inquiry is not there to apportion blame.

SW

[deeceethree]

I guess I was just trying to say that the outcome would be embarrassing, damaging to the reputation for the crew, the RAF etc. And it will undoubtedly result in the loss of a small freedom or perk or something, for somebody, somewhere, because it will result in the introduction of more rules. Sad.

I wasn't intending to comment on the direct loss of life and trauma caused by the accident though that, too, is sad.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I had to listen to that several times. It's hard to try to see/visualize/recognize a situation from a short piece of audio. I heard two different recordings and when I listened to the first, (which did not include the final seconds), I first wondered how many seconds that was before the actual accident. I've had many conversations on the intercom that, while being a little less rambunctious have indicated equally "adventurous" flying. When I heard the first recording, (that lacked the final seconds), I felt there was a "lack of attendance" by the pilot. He can have "fun" and he can have "fun" in discussing it with his crewman, I have no argument with that. But the lack of attendance _seemed_ to be there. The second section in the second recording I heard seems to have confirmed that a lack of attention to "flying the aircraft" took place.

I can't hold the Crewman blameless. It is/was a function of the crewman to control/question/manage/support his captain, (let's not discuss the fact there was a Co-Pilot), yet he seemed to have not recognized that the task was taking a "turn for the worst". He had a duty to the passengers that he gave up. Mea Culpa, with perfect hindsight - but nothing bad happened and, back then, it didn't seem like a "reportable issue/offense" - but for luck or chance, we all came out smiling and thinking it was a great thing.

This was a tragic situation that occurred for numerous different reasons. Not the least that the controlling Pilot was not as in control of his aircraft as he would like to think he could be. His Co-Pilot seemed to be non-existent - but I'll happily be corrected on that - and the crewman should have, properly, reprimanded his captain and requested a change in the way he was carrying out the task. I won't even bother to address the accusation that a crew on another aircraft suggested they alter their activity - that simply damns the crew.

Fortunately, there were far more survivors than there were deaths.

I'm sure, this post will be seen as controversial... I'm prepared for reasonable discussion.

[wokawoka]

I just had a listen to the CVR on BBC website. I think it is actually of a better quality than the sky news version. As rightly mentioned it does not contain the last seconds.

However it does show some terrible things. The co pilot is the only one to mention that they came out low of the manoeuvre. The pilot is going yeehaa whilst the crewman, after saying he saw how low they were from the door, says "Permission to say Yeehaa loudly sir?" a la Blackadder.
The co pilot seems to be concerned by saying "Permission to say it was a little bit low" only to get the response " We had a good 30'"???? I doubt they were doing a CAD... Correction I know they were not doing a CAD..... Only then the co-pilot re-iterates "That was 30' MSC to its limit, mate". I emphasise the "mate" because that is exactly the way I would emphasise to somebody they are beyond the limit.
Shame he did not have the guts to call knock it off. But it is also understandable, when you are LCR next to your CR captain, that you will give him the benefit of the doubt.

All in all this is *********** ....Now the rest of us are left to pick up the pieces with all the abuse that will come our way and the barrier of new rules to be instigated *******************.


I hope this post does not offend anyone, but I am proud of being in the SH force. Watching it being put in disrepute *************** makes my blood boil.


Regards,

Wokwoka

Sorry if amending your post offends you Wok, but as I understand it the case is still under investigation and the comments I have removed could be damaging.

[Al R]

I found this entire thread really uncomfortable to read. I consider myself normally rational and sober minded and my job requires detailed analysis and reflection, but there have been times when I have driven like a lunatic. Why? What is it about us that allows that little weird side to occasionaly surface? Whatever happened that was above anything else, a tragedy of the most dreadful and highest magnitude for the parents and loved ones of those who died, and who now have to face the public dissmantling of their "little boy's" reputation. I served on 33 and although I never knew the captain, I look at his face and I see a human being who had all the aspirations and hopes that we have (I assume) all have known to some great extent.

I have hung out of the door of a Puma and the disc has seemed almost to touch the floor - I don't know what banter was going on via the intercom, and its probably best that I didn't. But there is a fine line between trusting a 'great' pilot and him being a fine flier and him being incompetent and hung out to dry. The measure and extent of what went wrong can be determined later and so it should be. But David was a human being too, and so were Phil and Sean. He is not here to either apologise, explain, justify or amplify, so (yes, I know I'm not aircrew but I do have a semblence of wordliness and noggin about me), I think we should respect first and foremost the fact that it isn't our role to (pre) judge or so publically dissect anyone.

I guess my point is, I might well have chatted with Dave, shared a beer with him or enjoyed the craic with him the day before. I make my determinations about a man based on many things and many things about him.. not just those which went wrong for him. I hope that we all remember that and respect them as human beings.. fallible or not. Sorry if you think I'm being preachy. I certainly don't mean to be.. this goes beyond a military foul up, no one wins - lets just make sure that now, no one gets hurt needlessly.

[Gainesy]

Vigilant Pilot , are you sure Wok is 180 out? The voice that says something like "are they all comfy in the back?" has a slight Geordie accent which I assume therefore is Sale. If that is the correct then the non-accent voice admonishing about the "30ft limit Mate" would then be the co-pilot?

[jayteeto]

With about 2500 hrs on RAF Pumas I was shocked by this recording. I know journos pick things up from the site, but fact is fact and it doesn't look good here. However, press please take note because this is important. The audio "Low Height" is an adjustable setting, it can read 5 feet or up to 2000 feet. Therefore in this case you cannot say that they were 100% low low low flying from that alone. Its hard to tell, but the final seconds of the BBC recording made me shiver because Puma pilots are all aware of that Nr reducing sound during a fast approach. Even the best pilots have all experienced that rotor decaying sound at some time in their Puma career. Those of us still here are lucky, many peolple were not. Read past threads, the Puma bites!! Thank goodness that the Puma upgrade (different argument on sense of this) will address the engine response issues.
Whatever went on in the minutes or hours before is not what caused this aircraft to crash, although it doesn't help the crew reputation. Laughing, yahooing, whatever, the reason this aircraft crashed is how the approach to land was carried out. (The BBC says it was on approach)

[Gainesy]

JT2 can you post a link please? The clip I heard (Yorks regional TV) was about 15sec long and there was no rotor sound.

[peppermint_jam]

Link to BBC news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8292984.stm)

[Vie sans frontieres]

Just a guess but I don't suppose the handling pilot and crewman were around the notorious '1000 hours total flying' mark in their logbooks were they?

It certainly sounds like it.:(

[Gainesy]

Flt Lt Sale is quoted by his ex-boss as having 571hrs.

[KPax]

Just seen this on BBC, apologies if it has been on already.
Crash squadron a 'sloppy outfit'

Three men were killed in the helicopter crash near Catterick
A coroner has branded an RAF squadron "a sloppy outfit" at an inquest into the deaths of three men in a helicopter crash during a training exercise.

Geoff Fell said there was no evidence of any documentation to show the crew of the doomed RAF Puma were "properly ratified" to fly the aircraft.

Flt Lt David Sale, Sgt Phillip Burfoot and Pte Sean Tait died in the crash in North Yorkshire in August 2007.

The helicopter crew was based at RAF Benson in Oxfordshire.

Twelve military personnel were on board the aircraft which crashed during a training flight near Catterick Garrison.

Mr Fell was trying to establish if Flt Lt Robert Hamilton, who was left paraplegic as a result of the injuries he suffered, and Flt Lt Paul Carlon, who had taken part in earlier exercises, were deemed to be qualified to take part.


I'm not prepared to sit here and see these families denied the right to find out what has happened to their kids

Geoff Fell, coroner
Mr Fell said: "There is no paperwork to suggest or indicate that Hamilton and Carlon were LCR [limited combat-ready].

"There is no document to show this crew were properly ratified.

"This is a sloppy outfit. I can't put it any other way.

"I'm not prepared to sit here and see these families denied the right to find out what has happened to their kids," he said.

Mr Fell made his comments during a discussion with Oliver Sanders, who is representing the Ministry of Defence (MoD) at the inquest.

Mr Sanders interrupted the questioning of Wing Cdr Jason Appleton, who was second in command at 33 Squadron, at RAF Benson.

He objected to Mr Appleton being asked about a report critical of 33 Squadron which highlighted poor record-keeping and leadership.

Mr Sanders said the questioning went beyond the scope of the inquest and should not be allowed.



The Puma came from an RAF base in Oxfordshire
The coroner disagreed and Mr Appleton was asked to comment on the report, which found there had been a "loss of focus on routine administration".

Mr Appleton conceded there "had been a problem with some paperwork" but said his squadron had seen "unprecedented operational commitment".

"It is fair to say the eye was taken off the ball," he told the inquest.

On the opening day of the hearing, on Monday, an audio clip was played to Harrogate Magistrates' Court in which the crew were heard laughing and joking moments before the crash.

Sgt Burfoot, 27, from Cardiff, and Flt Lt Sale, 28, from Norton on Teesside, were killed in the crash. They both served with 33 Squadron.

Seventeen-year-old Army recruit Pte Tait died from his injuries two days later.

He was from Castlemilk in Glasgow and had been undergoing training in the Royal Regiment of Scotland Company of the 1st Infantry Training Battalion at the Infantry Training Centre, Catterick.

[flipster]

I believe the BoI (Service Inquiry) was delayed while the CPS decided whether or not there were any criminal charges to be considered. Now that no charges are to be brought, what has happened to the BoI? Has it concluded? If so, does anyone know the outcome?

[Gnd]

Well, by the CPS anyway?

[flipster]

Gents,

Is it correct that, in this case, the Coroner's Inquest will pre-date the BoI/SI?

Have expert accident investigators (the AAIB) had the chance to report (technically wrt the site, the ac's serviceability, its inherent design/airworthiness and wrt the CVR/ADR? Also, have the medical types reported pathologically and psychologically etc) to the BoI/SI or have they gone straight to the Coroner?

What and why are senior offs writing to eachother?

Something here doesn't make sense.

flipster

[Gainesy]

Thank you VP.

[Cows getting bigger]

What and why are senior offs writing to each other?

In senior-officer-speak they are probably saying "F***, this is bad".

Put yourself in Joe Public's position. Coroner says that sqn management was slack, incomplete paperwork (CR/LCR?), sqn cdr since retired (not an accusation on my behalf, just repeating a previous statement), audio tape of chaps larking about with 8 troops down the back, anecdotal evidence from another SH crew, BOI not touching the accident with a very-long-thing choosing to hand over to the police.

Regardless of the hard, incontrovertible facts, all of the above isn't exactly a glowing indictment. Any curved ball about Puma anticipators etc is likely to be completely lost in the overwhelming noise.

[Jackonicko]

Torque,

I would, of course, agree that we "should not shy away from a frank discussion as to how it went so wrong on this occasion."

I would suggest that doing so in the full glare of my industry may not be entirely productive - less specialised journos will be looking for scandal, and there may be a temptation for some to go for 'ar.se covering' rather than a proper investigation.

I'd also repeat my unease at hysteria, involving the Police and the CPS, and my distaste at some of the mud-slinging.

There can be a fine line between "spirit and personal pride in one's own expertise" and "showing off", and even "pushing the limits" to get the job done.

While this crew may have crossed that line fairly spectacularly, I'm sure that many of us (when young and foolish) have at least come close to doing so, and to see them being so roundly condemned by their fellow professionals is unedifying.

[flipster]

In the sky news clip, it definitely sounds as if the engine/rotor speed reduces quite quickly. For sure, the AAIB will have been able to fathom out from this if there were any engine problems but, I believe, that it has been reported that there were no engine failures - which is not necessariliy the same thing.

[cazatou]

flipster

It is normal practice in the case of a Fatal Accident for the findings of the BOI to be held in abeyance prior to the judgement of the Coroners Court. This is done so as not to predjudice any subsequent Legal Proceedings.

It may, therefore, be some time before the BOI into this tragedy is completed and published if it is decided that there should be Legal Proceedings in respect of the actions (or inactions) of any of the surviving Crew or others who may have been involved prior to or during the events which resulted in the crash.

[Pheasant]

Caz,

It is normal practice in the case of a Fatal Accident for the findings of the BOI to be held in abeyance prior to the judgement of the Coroners Court. This is done so as not to predjudice any subsequent Legal Proceedings.


Not sure about this one. RN BOIs (before the advent of SIs) were published within about 6 weeks of commencement, the Technical Investigation took longer but was not dependant on the date of the Inquest, which can be some years after the event. The BOI is used to determine the most likely cause of the accident, the inquest attempts to determine the cause of death.

Pheasant

[cazatou]

Pheasant

I based that statement on my experience as Flight Safety 1 at HQ 1 GP which unfortunately involved more that one fatal crash. The BOI is an administrative document and is not part of any subsequent Legal Proceedings which may possibly follow an investigation into an aircraft mishap resulting in such an Inquiry. A separate Summary of Evidence would have to be taken.

[flipster]

So, in that case, the Coroner does not have any sort of accident investigation report on which to help him find out what happened?

Normally, the AAIB would have been asked by the BOI/SI to carry out a full field/ technical investigation of the crash-site and I am sure they have already. But the AAIB only do the technical side of things for the RAF, so who has been/will be conducting the all-important 'operational' reports involving supervision, medical, meteorolgical and human-factors (including psychological and fatigue issues) aspects?

I am sure that these reports would be a great help to Mr Fell, as such reports will help pinpoint the causes of the crash and more importantly, prevent future recurrences of this type of accident. In fact, I would go as far to say that without such reports, completed by accident-investigation personnel, the Coroner's Inquest is most severely hampered.

I am sure someone can let us know who has done this research for the Coroner?

[teeteringhead]

One certainly hopes that Mr Fell is exaggerating when he says there was no record at all of the crew's combat status (CR/LCR or whatever).

Wot? None at all? No logbook entry (subject or checker), no sortie report in trg folder, no entry in F5000 series, no archive photo of "wailing wall" ...... as an erstwhile SH Sqn QHI I find that very difficult to believe .....

..... but if true ........:eek:

[vecvechookattack]

Did the AAIB conduct an investigation ? I understood it was the Royal Navy that conducted it? Not sure though...Stand to be corrected

[seafuryfan]

'Coroner sorry for "Sloppy" remark'

BBC NEWS | UK | England | North Yorkshire | Coroner sorry for 'sloppy' remark (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8295053.stm)

[Cows getting bigger]

Is that the same Dixon who was OC 27? If so, I remember the said individual trying to overtake Shaggy, his formation lead, in a certain disturbance in order to be first crossing the start line. Old Shaggy wasn't a happy bunny(ette). Pity really - we'd f***ed up and crossed the line before all of them a few minutes earlier. :)

Serious hat on, I think this one still has a long way to go. Terribly sad.

[cazatou]

flipster

If the AAIB conducted the investigation then that would be available to the Coroner. What would NOT be available - in the case of an RAF BOI -is the report of the Board to the Command chain because that could form the basis of any further investigation which could result in Formal Disciplinary Action or Courts Martial.

That having been said, Witnesses who gave evidence to the BOI would also be liable to give evidence to the Coroner. It is an area of Legal Proceedings which makes those who practice it quite wealthy at public expense.:rolleyes:

[Wrathmonk]

The report in question (albeit "redacted") that Mr Fell may be talking about can be found here (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/66D22157-514E-4B1B-87C5-C445234C9C26/0/puma_review_redacted.pdf). I suspect Paragraph 5.12 might be what he was getting at.

I know it has been posted before but I couldn't find the post/link!

[Biggles225]

Flipster

Im old and well out of date, but the sounds in the report didnt seem to be 'engine problems' noises, they sounded to me like retreating blade stall.
Im prepared to be wrong. (As usual). :}

[tucumseh]

Caz

Witnesses who gave evidence to the BOI would also be liable to give evidence to the Coroner


Quite right in all that you say.

The area that concerns me is those witnesses whose written evidence, intended for the BoI, is withheld from said BoI, the Coroner and families; thus denying the BoI the opportunity to make recommendations to prevent recurrence, obstructing the Coroner in the execution of his duties and denying families the truth.

Sorry, slightly off topic - I'm thinking about two fatal accidents in 2003.

[vecvechookattack]

If the AAIB conducted the investigation

I'm not sure that the AAIB have conducted an investigation. It was the Royal Navy who conducted the investigation. The aircraft is currently at Yeovilton.

[jayteeto]

Retreating blade stall?? What does that sound like?? I may be wrong in my assumption, I accept that, but that sound on the tape was a very familiar one. As a QHI on Puma, part of the course was to demonstrate (at height) rotor Nr droop. It sounded a bit like the recording.........

[vecvechookattack]

If the NR was drooping was that as a result of them yanking in an armpit full of lever in order to arrest a decent?

[flipster]

Vec - it mat be that the RN Flight Safety Accident Investigation Centre (RNFSAIC) carried out the technical report (they are very well-trained, professional accident investigators - trained in the same way as AAIB) however, as the AAIB cannot deploy to the dustbox, the RNFSAIC normally carry out the field/tech reports for BoI/SIs abroad. In the UK, on the other hand, the AAIB usually gets invited by the RAF to carry out these investigations (as we don't have the expertise), so I would be surprised to hear that the RNFSAIC did it. That said, I believe that the RNFSAIC now have an 'ops inspector', so it is possible! That, at least, would mean that someone professional and out of the RAF chain of command had carried out the investigation - which would greatly help the Coroner. If, however, the ops investigations have not yet been done, I can't see how the Inquest can come to a logical conclusion. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Wrathmk - nope - that report is pretty damning but it is neither the technical/enineering report, nor the ops report I would expect to be carried out for an aircraft accident by the AAIB/RNFSAIC in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 and associated protocols.

Caz - thanks for that. As you know, the AAIB do not have primacy in the overall investigation of RAF accidents - that is kept within the Service. So, the AAIB do the technical side of RAF accidents and do not complete the 'operations' reports - these are left to "complete novices" (in terms of accident investigations) - in the shape of the unfortunate BoI members. As for formal administrative action, as I think it is called now, then that will have to wait a while. When it happens, then it will probably be very messy, one way or another; certainly as it seems right now. Of course, we could all be jumping to conclusions - if this accident has been thoroughly investigated by the AAIB or RNFSAIC, then the truth will out, as these organisations do not have a political axe to grind and will be dispassionate in their reporting - with a view to preventing recurrence.

However, I am glad the BoI/SI is not yet complete as it woukd only muddy the waters - as Tuc mentions, BoIs do not look at all the slices of cheese, never mind all the holes therein. In fact, I would be happy for the RNFSAIC/AAIB to have primacy in all military accidents and do away with BoIs/SIs for aircraft accidents in toto, as the latter have passed their sell-by date.

Biggles Vec JT2 - While it looks bleak for the pilots right now, it may be that Nr droop and/or the lack of anticipators may be involved (or contributed in some way), as mentioned by others. If so, then it will not have escaped the notice of the AAIB/RNFSAIC that these problems have been raised, time and time again after past Puma accidents but yet nothing has been done to fix the problem; maybe the Puma MLU and engine upgrade is long, long overdue? Who was in charge of this? Of course, it may be that the drooping sound was indeed a last minute attempt to avoid terra firma - I am sure the AAIB/RNFSAIC will be able to work it out wrt the CVR, crash site and witness reports. I am not sure that further speculation on this is possible or wise until then.

Kind regards and symapthy for the families and those left injured

flipster

PS Caz, hope you are doing ok?

[Wrathmonk]

Flipster

Sorry - I think we may be at cross purposes here. I agree totally that the report at my link is

neither the technical/enineering report, nor the ops report I would expect to be carried out for an aircraft accident by the AAIB/RNFSAIC in accordance with ICAO Annex 13 and associated protocols

I posted the link in reference to the comments by Mr Fell about the squadron being a "sloppy outfit" and more in support/explanation of seafuryfan's post and link.

As I understand it, none of the reports you mention above would be "open source" yet as the 'formal' BoI is suspended/still in progress but stand ready to be corrected!

[H Peacock]

...it may be that Nr droop and/or the lack of anticipators may be involved (or contributed in some way), as mentioned by others. If so, then it will not have escaped the notice of the AAIB/RNFSAIC that these problems have been raised, time and time again after past Puma accidents but yet nothing has been done to fix the problem; maybe the Puma MLU and engine upgrade is long, long overdue?

When I first had the pleasure of flyimg the Puma in the early 90s we were taught about it's few vices including the lack of anticipators. Fortunately the OCU staff and the 33 Sqn trg regime made the need to 'anticpate' possible Nr droop during any manouvring a priority, and so we effectively did exactly what the anticpator would do - albeit via a tweak on the collective rather than directly increasing the Ng. I'm not saying I didn't ever hear the odd 'beep', but you always new it was coming 'cos you'd not anticpated quite enough.

Now, I can't recall many (any!) Puma accidents prior to 94 where this lack of anticpation was an issue - but stand to be corrected. I do know this theme has been a feature in many accidents since, so can't help conclude that it possibly points to a lack of this 'anticpator' awareness. There are many old aircraft still out there with similar issues which, if handled correctly and flown sensibly, should remain safe. I know many fixed-wing aircraft have a minimum power setting on finals so the engine(s), albeit producing a bit more residual thrust, are ready and waiting to provide power at short notice. I do hope that the level of Nr awareness including on-sqn trg is as good as it was in my day when it helped me, my crew and passngers stay safe.

[antisthenes]

H Peacock

I left the Puma force in 97 and know of at least two fatal accidents directly attributable to the lack of anticipators prior to 94. There were a number of incidents that involved minor damage (certainly to pride) not least a certain display at a Shawbury graduation in 88 when all the ex-Puma instructors were seen heading for the door as the alternators tripped offline and that tell tale shudder as the autopilot dropped out!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

directly attributable

'Contributable factor' surely

(with respect from an outsider)

If you know of the design flaw and are trained accordingly

[H Peacock]

...not least a certain display at a Shawbury graduation in 88 when all the ex-Puma instructors were seen heading for the door as the alternators tripped offline and that tell tale shudder as the autopilot dropped out!

I didn't see it, but heard about it. But then this was one of the QHIs who taught me and others, on the OCU and then the Sqn, how best to avoid this 'lack of anticipation' in the first place.

[charliegolf]

Shawbury display. Bet he didn't have 12 blokes down the back, and that he was authorised for the display flight.

CG

[antisthenes]

Don't get me wrong, the guy flying was one of the most talented, competent and generally decent blokes I ever served with. It just proves that the beast could catch anyone - it was just a matter of degrees (no pun intended).

[Jackonicko]

Re: "Sloppy Unit"

It would be a shame if the actions of one crew, on one day, were to marr the reputation of an entire squadron, let alone of a whole force.

I would hope that a more balanced view will prevail, that the 'sloppy unit' slur will be quickly forgotten, and that the 'Loyalty', professionalism and flair that the heirs of Pattle's boys have always shown will once again be properly recognised.

This is a Force that has faced and mastered the demands of "unprecedented operational commitment", and its chaps deserve congratulation for having done so, and 33 have always been at the fore. You'd need to 'Search Far' to find their like.... ;)

[airborne_artist]

Coroner now rowing back on the "sloppy" remark:

BBC NEWS | UK | England | North Yorkshire | Coroner sorry for 'sloppy' remark (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8295053.stm)

[cazatou]

flipster

What you say is true to some extent in respect of RAF Accidents in Categories 3-5 or involving Fatalities; Categories 1&2 would normally be a Unit Inquiry. Any Investigating Officer or Board President will however have access through the Chain of Command, via the Flight Safety Staff, to whatever assistance is deemed necessary by the Convening Officer to fulfill the requirements of the Terms of Reference for the Inquiry. To put that in plain English - it means that the BOI are not guaranteed a week in a Hotel in DisneyWorld just because the last refuelling stop prior to the Accident was in Florida.

PS Thanks for the query - taking it a day at a time.

[oldbeefer]

"Kita Chari Jauh" indeed!

[Roger Sofarover]

Yes but that is 230 Sqn!:rolleyes::hmm: What I think Jacko should have been using was 'Loyalty'.

[oldbeefer]

Yes, I know that is 230 - that's the whole point!

[Roger Sofarover]

Oldbeefer

I know you know that I know you know it is 230. The smileys are aimed at Jacko Sir.

[oldbeefer]

okaydokay!:E

[Biggles225]

Jayteeto

You'd know better than me, being a QFI, but the retreating blade stall sound is a dagga dagga dagga when you are low, fast and going round a corner a bit sharp. You fix it by dropping a bit of collective, or you end up rolling nose down heading in the direction of travel of the blade. At least thats what I was told 30 odd years ago, and as I've said I'm always prepared to be wrong.
Nr Droop, as you haven't got anticipators on the Puma- very likely, but I have never heard it, so I wouldnt know, Ive always flown Gnome. :}

[Tiger_mate]

Nr Droop, as you haven't got anticipators on the Puma- very likely, but I have never heard it

I have; at MAUW (12+12+crew/NI) in a descending right hand turn on approach and therefore already close to the ground. I would not like to hear it again; it is a surreal sound and thankfully the chap with the lever in his hand left it alone which is against human instincts. He being a first tourist would suggest that either the training is/was effective or he simply froze. I like to think the former. I hasten to add that even if this approach had gone horribly wrong, I do not believe that there was anywhere near the momentum to destroy the airframe in the manner of the accident in question.

In follow-up discussion*, the 'system' (Sqn Execs & Trainers) was an advocate of anticipaters being in the head of the pilot in command, despite 38years of associated accidents. Duty of care legislation these days means that those nonchallent responses are a thing of the past.

*The situation was openly discussed to all Sqn members, and rightfully so.

[Jackonicko]

Rogersofarover,

Read my post again:

"I would hope that a more balanced view will prevail, that the 'sloppy unit' slur will be quickly forgotten, and that the 'Loyalty', professionalism and flair that the heirs of Pattle's boys have always shown will once again be properly recognised.

This is a Force that has faced and mastered the demands of "unprecedented operational commitment", and its chaps deserve congratulation for having done so, and 33 have always been at the fore. You'd need to 'Search Far' to find their like...."

I even used a winking smiley to make my respect for BOTH Puma mobs clear.

[Could be the last?]

'Mr Fell said his comments were aimed at the leadership at RAF Benson in Oxfordshire and not the rank and file.

He said he did not "resile" from his remarks but "apologised unreservedly" if they had been misconstrued.'

Mr Fell should remember that 'leadership' does not stop at Benson's main gate!

[flipster]

Caz,

You are right but as this ac was Cat 5 with fatalities, I would have thought that the AAIB would have been invited (under the MoU) to 'participate' because I presume the RNFSAIC are being kept quite busy out of area (not that the RAF has any expert accident investigators on which to call anyway!). Nonetheless, as long as either the AAIB or the RNFSAIC have done both the tech side and the ops side, that is a good start - this would be a whole lot better than a BoI/SI anyway....the way ahead perhaps?!

Now, if the ops report (met, supervision, human factors etc) has yet to be completed, then this is a different matter entirely. I can't see how the Coroner can proceed without this information, which could only be properly carried out by a professsional accident investigation unit such as the AAIB or RNFSAIC. I would think someone could confirm this, one way or another?

Wrathmonk - sorry! Yes, indeed those reports will not be open source for some time! If, however, they are in existence, one presumes the authors will called by the Coroner very soon and then we will see what follows on from there. As I am sure you appreciate, there could be a number of possibilities.

Sadly, it is highly likely that the gutter press will focus on the sensational aspects and miss the true gist of what the coroner is seeking to ascertain. I fear this Inquest will be very difficult for the all concerned. Let's hope the quality journos report the important facts and that the outcome really does help 'prevent recurrence'.

Jacko - I agree; let's not taint the whole fleet (and their supervisors) just yet.

flipster

[H Peacock]

You'd know better than me, being a QFI, but the retreating blade stall sound is a dagga dagga dagga when you are low, fast and going round a corner a bit sharp. You fix it by dropping a bit of collective, or you end up rolling nose down heading in the direction of travel of the blade. At least thats what I was told 30 odd years ago, and as I've said I'm always prepared to be wrong.

Retreating blade stall will invariably lead to an initial pitch-up, not pitch-down. You are correct about needing to gently reduce the collective. If the pitch-up and/or reduced collective does not 'unstall' the retreating blade (reducing AoA), the helicopter will try to roll towards the retreating blade, ie for the Puma a roll to the right.

[PTT]

Heard the bleeps plenty, sometimes unexpectedly, sometimes intentionally; as an experienced then-TC once said, if you're not hearing the bleeps, you're not using the aircraft.

Now before anyone get's all shirty about me saying that, my point is that even with training and experience in drooping the Nr deliberately, and with a good ear for the engines, the Puma can still bite you.

[seafuryfan]

Yaw/roll divergence hasn't come up yet. It was demonstrated once to me at height - the ac lost height very quickly. I believe an RAF Puma was lost in France due to YRD in the seventies.

The Puma yaw/collective interlink seems to do the job quite well. How grossly does one have to fly out of balance to induce yaw/roll divergence? Can it catch one out after an unintentional brief but harsh application of sideslip?

[PlasticCabDriver]

Seafuryfan,

How grossly does one have to fly out of balance to induce yaw/roll divergence? It is not strictly the out of balance that causes it, but an inappropriate yaw input to correct the out-of-balanceness(?).

The roll rate induced can be in excess of the ability of the cyclic to overcome it, and substantial height loss can ensue, but it takes a very large, rapid and sustained application of yaw pedal to get that sort of reaction. It is demonstrated very early on in the Puma OCU course, as an example of a. one of the Puma idiosyncrasies and b. gross mishandling. For the QHIs who demonstrate it one of the most tricky bits is overcoming the instinctive reaction to apply top/opposite pedal too quickly, before the effect has had a chance to build, which lessens the rather sobering effect of the demo on the student and does not give a chance for the student to fully see how quickly top pedal recovers the situation. In summary, if you manage to induce yaw/roll divergence, you have either a. done it on purpose, or b. grossly mishandled the aircraft. Pretty sure this has nothing to do with this accident.

I believe the one lost in France was being flown by a Boscombe crew who were investigating just that phenomenon.

If you were thinking of asking "how does yaw/roll divergence work?", don't go there!

[oldbeefer]

I believe the one lost in France was being flown by a Boscombe crew who were investigating just that phenomenon.



Oh, like they investigated the Sea King that rolled over and, blow me down, when they applied the same inputs, theirs rolled over as well!

[H Peacock]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticCabDriver

I believe the one lost in France was being flown by a Boscombe crew who were investigating just that phenomenon.

Oh, like they investigated the Sea King that rolled over and, blow me down, when they applied the same inputs, theirs rolled over as well!

...and like the investiagation in to the PR9 that crashed during an assy cct at Wyton in the 70s. Despite being warned not to try to replicate the incident, they lost a PR9 when it did exactly what it said on the tin! Unbelieveable!!!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[foxvc10]

Buccanner at Subic Bay as well, to check a certain stores fit, after one had been launched from a carrier with a stores fit that didnt quite work.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I believe the one lost in France was being flown by a Boscombe crew who were investigating just that phenomenon.Oh, like they investigated the Sea King that rolled over and, blow me down, when they applied the same inputs, theirs rolled over as well!Despite being warned not to try to replicate the incident, they lost a PR9 when it did exactly what it said on the tinBuccanner at Subic Bay as well, to check a certain stores fit, after one had been launched from a carrier with a stores fit that didnt quite work.Remind me again: what makes pilots so smart... :E

[PlasticCabDriver]

AA, perhaps that should be:

"Remind me again: what makes TEST pilots so smart... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif "

[cazatou]

flipster

I agree with you in some respects (however comma) but the system has to be flexible enough to deal with all sorts of investigations worldwide, possibly in combat zones.

One example would be the Tornado Mid-Air over Canada in the early '90's which resulted in one aircraft lost and another badly damaged. The Pilot of the Tornado that hit his leader had a wonderful excuse - he did not realise that he was supposed to wear his newly prescribed "Corrective Flying Spectacles" whilst flying an aeroplane. I wonder what he thought they were for?

The damaged (but flyable) Tornado was diverted to a distant small Civil Field without escort whilst the crew that had bailed out were left in a lake in their dinghies for about 12 hours until the CAF managed to rescue them by flying boat. The rest of the formation carried on regardless!!!

I believe there was quite a queue outside CinC STC's office awaiting one sided interviews after the BOI was completed.

[Chugalug2]

I find it instructive, caz, that your anecdotes (other than those about your own illustrious career) concern the incompetence and at times gross negligence of various drivers airframe. One would be forgiven for believing that they were the sole cause of the various losses of Her Majesty's Aeroplanes during your tenure as Group SFSO. The incompetence and at times gross negligence of Her Majesty's Air Officers never seem to get a mention. Could it be that the "system" that:
has to be flexible enough to deal with all sorts of investigations worldwide, possibly in combat zones.
is so flexible as to conveniently ignore such aberrations? The present system may well avoid embarrassment for such august persons but does very little for Flight Safety if Military Air Accident Investigations are so one sided. As I have pointed out before, if BA had both Airworthiness Authority over its fleet and sole Accident Investigation powers over its own accidents, their report of the B777 arrival at LHR would be a very different one to what we can expect from the AAIB. Flipster is right, high time that Military Air Accident Investigation be independent and professional, in much the same way as Military Airworthiness Regulation should be. Self Regulation does not work and in aviation it kills.

[The Gorilla]

Do Captains on Puma's self authorise by any chance??

[PTT]

Do Captains on Puma's self authorise by any chance??
Only when it is the most sensible option, i.e. rarely.

[RumPunch]

I spent my time on 72 ,Puma and Wessex and many a time flying a lot . This accident has shocked me especially what happened as a result of that , but please dont take away the skills of the crew. We had a near miss out of Stanta many years back and to this day you look to the big aviator in the sky and thank him I am still here. This is of no help to people involved but in my best defence does anyone go out to hurt anyone. If god wanted to make us fly we would have gave us wings.

The Helicopter fleet does more than most, its easy to blame somebody than to say well done , the crew of the Puma did not go out to hurt anyone , its one of the tragic gone wrong things. If time could be changed I would be the first to sign up for it but it cant .

I am proud to fly with some of the best trained aviators in the world , sometimes you just have a bad day but dont take away there passion for what they do best.

[Tappers Dad]

This report http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/66D22157-514E-4B1B-87C5-C445234C9C26/0/puma_review_redacted.pdf makes interesting reading in particular it mentions design features that require particular aircrew focus.There is quite a bit of redacting on it.

[cazatou]

Chugalug2

My "own illustrious career"? I have never served with the Royal Navy (although we did have RN Pilots on 32 Sqn)- let alone on a Carrier.

PS Were you aware that Shakespeare used "Illustrious" as meaning "Dull". Perhaps he meant "not lustrous" ?

PPS My one and only Accident was a CAT 3 birdstrike in 1966 -NOM. Teach's you not to fly on a Saturday morning even if you are behind the task!!

PPPS You cannot have a "Group Station Flight Safety Officer" which is what "Group SFSO" would mean. My Post was FS1 HQ 1Gp.

PPPPS During the 10 Months I was there we had 14 Board and Unit Inquiries in progress at the same time - perhaps "Patience" was, understandably, wearing a trifle "Thin" at that time.

Now, would you like to hear about the BOI's during that time which were reconvened after their original findings of negligence were thrown out as total rubbish which ignored the evidence?

[Gainesy]

So, getting back to the subect, what is the Coroner's Inquest doing at the moment, is it ongoing, on hold or what?

[Chugalug2]

caz:
Now, would you like to hear about the BOI's during that time which were reconvened after their original findings of negligence were thrown out as total rubbish which ignored the evidence?
Well, not right now thanks. I'd be much more interested to know about BOI's that ignored evidence (by not looking for it) and thus came to findings of Gross Negligence. Why would they do that, caz? Why should we take any RAF BOI seriously thereafter? I see that the latest call is for Military Procurement to be taken out of the hands of the MOD due to its incompetence. All in good time! MOD Airworthiness Authority is a contradiction in terms and must be removed forthwith to safer and independent hands, along with Military Air Accident Investigation.
Self Regulation does not work and in Aviation it kills!

[Mick Strigg]

Chug,

If you do away with Military Air Accident Investigation, who would do it? The AAIB refuse to go to Theatre!

[flash8]

The AAIB refuse to go to Theatre!
Is that correct?
If so what is their reasoning?

[Chugalug2]

Mick Strigg:
Chug,
If you do away with Military Air Accident Investigation, who would do it? The AAIB refuse to go to Theatre!
Yes, I'm aware of that, Mick. I don't pretend that a solution will come easily, but come it must. I have suggested elsewhere that the AAIB be made up of two parts, civil and military. Likewise there would be a CAA and MAA for Airworthiness Regulation. Both the MAAIB and the MAA would have to be able to deploy to wherever the Armed Forces do and yet be separate from and independent of the MOD. There are other civilian support arms (Defence Fire Services etc) under the MOD that already deploy. It must be possible to come to some arrangement whereby that could happen but outside of the MOD. As I say I don't know how, but aviation is unforgiving of anything other than a detached professional approach. I submit that in both Military Air Accident Investigation and Airworthiness Regulation we have been woefully deprived of that by the RAF and the MOD respectively.
flash8, others will know better, but I understand that the Royal Navy still retains trained air accident investigators for work in theatre.

[flipster]

Indeed the Royal Naval Flight Safety Accident Investigation Centre (RNFSAIC) could perform the military role in concert with the AAIB - these professionals work closely together and are similiarly trained, so interoperability is not a problem - and they will deploy! Put them together as a joint unit, outwith the MoD's chain of command and you could have a professional accident investigation unit that LEADS the investigation from a dispassionate and objective viewpoint - rather than the purely 'technical advice' the AAIB/RNFSAIC presently provide to BsOI/SIs (whose members are untrained accident investigators). Rather sadly, this way forward was recommended by the Tench Report in 1986 (!) but it was 'buried' by the MoD for reasons unknown. Goodness knows how many lives and aircraft have been lost because of this MoD failure.

Implementation of the airworthiness regs is another subject, though closely linked. Chug is right, the MoD continue to prove that self-regulation has failed. It is now time that this function is removed from the MoD's grasp.

[Pheasant]

The RNFSAIC works independently of the chain of command whilst it is conducting an investigation. Their reports stand for themselves and are never altered or amended. The role of the RN BOI is to determine the "events leading up to the accident", draw conclusions and make recommendations. Again whilst appointed by the chain of command they acted in an independent way. The key is the difference in philosophy between the RN and RAF. IMHO the RN chain of command have always been able to stand back and not second guess BOIs, and accept their findings. If they (the CoC) have disagreed with the BOI then it was always stated in a seperate document and the BOI report remained uninfluenced and untouched. The RN do not conduct formal oral briefings of the CoC (where influence may be brought to bear one might think) during the BOI but they do keep the CoC informed of key issues that affect airworthiness or safety. The RN system is excellent and has withstood many an investigation and inquest.

I noted that the RN BOI/RNFSAIC teams gained significant praise from both the coroner and families during the PORTLAND inquest.

[colonel cluster]

Chug, you seem intent to talk about indenpendence, and BOIs etc, in the context of the MOD, but as pointed out above, the Services work differently, with the RN and AAC having a separate Acc Investigation function, outwith the HQ. Perhaps before pushing for an external solution, we should look at where better practice may be found internally.

Don't tar the whole MOD by how the RAF do business.

[Gnd]

Get the RN, AAC and RAF to do each others with 1 internal SME to advise - would get better results as indipendant and the RN and AAC would get off easily - Synic - no way!!!

[Chugalug2]

CC:
Don't tar the whole MOD by how the RAF do business.
I tar the whole MOD by the way that the MOD itself does business, CC, ie its business of Military Airworthiness Regulation. Should you demure from that proposition I would refer you to the revelations in the Chinook, Nimrod and Hercules Accident threads on this very forum, as well as comments made by sundry Coroners, FAI's and Parliamentary Committees. It is nothing short of a national scandal. As regards MI's other than by the RAF my only observation is that pride comes before a fall and of course my irritating mantra;
Self Regulation does not work and in Aviation it Kills!

[SiClick]

There is no reason why the AAIB could not have their role modified to include deployments to military accidents in theatre. Its just not a part of their current role.
A significant number of the AAIB are ex-military anyway!

[vecvechookattack]

There is no reason why the AAIB could not have their role modified to include deployments to military accidents in theatre. Its just not a part of their current role

There is a reason. They won't go. Who is going to drag them out there?
Self Regulation does not work and in Aviation it Kills

Complete rubbish. Self regulation doesnt work if you are weak and feeble. Otherwise it works fine.

[Chugalug2]

Vecvec:
Complete rubbish. Self regulation doesnt work if you are weak and feeble. Otherwise it works fine.
That may well be vecvec, but is it not a gamble that every time there is an accident those involved in the aftermath to ensure that it can never happen again are "otherwise" in your own words? In Civil Aviation no such assumption is made, either in Regulation or in Investigation. Is your case that those in Civil Aviation must be assumed to be "weak and feeble" whereas in Naval Aviation (in your case) they most certainly are not? Self Regulation is the British disease and has served us ill. One only has to think of the many "weak and feeble" MP's now helping with enquiries into their expenses.

[vecvechookattack]

The mistake you are making is to compare Civil and Military aviation. Civil airlines have 1 priority and that is to make money. Whilst making money they will state that they are commited to the safety and security of the crew and passengers. Military aviation has 1 priority and that is to kill the enemy. Whilst killing the enemy we may crash and kill some of our crews. That is accepted. It is accepted by the public but more importantly it is accepted by the crews. That is why the AAIB will not go into harms way and that is why the RNFSAIC will go into harms way.

[Chugalug2]

Vecvec:
Military aviation has 1 priority and that is to kill the enemy. Whilst killing the enemy we may crash and kill some of our crews. That is accepted.
If that were all that is being discussed here we would be on common ground, vecvec. Of 60 lives lost in 5 aircraft; Chinook (29), 2 Sea Kings (7), Hercules (10) and Nimrod (14), the only enemy presence was possibly as insignificant as one AK47 round (into the Hercules unprotected fuel tank). Each of those accidents had significant Airworthiness issues that were discounted or ignored by their respective BoI's. Whether or not they were the basic cause, a contributory cause, or incidental to the accident is not the point. Those issues would have been investigated by professional accident investigators at the time rather than being addressed long after the event thanks to external pressure or to still be the subject of rancour.