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chockchucker
7th Aug 2007, 22:48
Looks like all is not going as well at Jet* international as they would have us believe.

It appears Jetstar are now going back to the old Qantas Tactic of herding people through Sydney before they go anywhere. Just once, I'd like them to try and stimulate the market before making such moves. However, as with everything else at Qantas, "That's the way we've always done it & that's the way we're going to do it in future".

Any wonder the place is stuffed!


August 08, 2007 12:00am
JETSTAR will axe its direct Melbourne-Honolulu service after just eight months because ticket sales failed to meet targets set by the discount carrier.

The twice-a-week Airbus A330 service from Tullamarine will end on October 28.

It will be replaced by direct flights from Sydney, where the number of services to the US holiday destination will be increased to five a week.

Jetstar will announce the decision today, citing lower seat factors and operational performance.

The Qantas offshoot would continue to operate flights from Melbourne to Bangkok, Bali and Christchurch, he said, adding that the company was also working with Tourism Victoria to develop other international services from Melbourne.

They include a planned Melbourne-Athens service late next year.

Jetstar passengers booked on Honolulu flights from Melbourne after October 28 will be moved to Qantas and Jetstar domestic for their flights to Sydney where they will board their flight to Hawaii.

The Melbourne-Honolulu service, begun on December 29 last year, was the last of the international flights Jetstar launched from Melbourne.

It had a troubled start, with about 300 Australians stranded in Honolulu on one occasion, costing the Qantas offshoot more than $1 million to repatriate them after two of its jets developed faults.

B A Lert
8th Aug 2007, 00:46
Where is Sunfish? :sad:

His erudite comments would be good to read!:rolleyes:

Don Esson
8th Aug 2007, 00:54
It will be replaced by direct flights from Sydney, where the number of services to the US holiday destination will be increased to five a week.

Jetstar will by their own admission have 5 flights a week. Qantas have three a week. Implied conclusion is that they will be going 'head to head' one day a week. Optionally, Qantas will soon withdraw one of its three flights. Is this the thin end of the wedge with yet another route being given to the low cost off-shoot?

No wonder Jetstar reckon they can make money, especially when they don't have to bear any real costs developing a route? Apart from Phuket, what have they operated that is new?

OldBoiler
8th Aug 2007, 02:26
Ahhh......try Saigon!

What The
8th Aug 2007, 02:36
Wrong..... try again

ebt
8th Aug 2007, 03:14
So when did QF fly SGN? I'm pretty confident that it has been some between QF ending and JQ starting, so how would that be JQ building on an established route?

kuldalai
8th Aug 2007, 03:39
Perhaps if Jetstar got customer friendly instead of charging a pax $ 600 to change a passenger name on a ticket at last minute because the original booked pax was ill they would get more pax on their International services. Also pax stranded at Overseas locations with defective aircraft and not much help from big brother at QF in lending aircraft in getting pax back home does not go well with the punters.
Now today Jetstar put out some spin PR crap that they will protest the VECAT decision in that they defend their right for pax to be able to change their bookings at the last minute . The dispute was not over that at all it was they charged $ 600 admin fee to change the name on an originally booked fare of $ 349 which was outrageous. Any fare for altering the booking to another realative should be the actual admin cost involved like $ 50 not an outrageous $ 600 rip off fee . Jetstar deserved to lose the case and they did - they should alter their policy not put out a pile of spin that is utter BS and has nothing to do with the original issue.

porch monkey
8th Aug 2007, 04:05
Their F#ckups cost Jetstar jack. The real bearer of the cost is QF. Most people have no idea of the shifting of costs that goes on behind the scenes here.

VH-JJW
8th Aug 2007, 04:24
Do you??????

Prove it!

Just once I would like to see some figures put to the accusations that Jetstar is propped up by Qantas mainline, and not the usual 'my friends mum whose friend works for the assistant to the special boss of widgets said....'

Surely the fact that Jetstar bore losses for 8 months on the route whilst Syd - Hnl kicked goals is a fair attempt to give the route a go.

If Mel punters do not support local services then they loose them, simple as that. What is the problem? Airlines are a business, not public transport (despite the type of pax that Jetstar attract)

Redstone
8th Aug 2007, 04:36
It was always going to be a bold moove for J*int to operate the routes it does with only 4, now 5 a/c. Thier aircraft utilization leaves no ground time for maintenance, so when the $hit hits the fan the knock on effect is huge.

Bula
8th Aug 2007, 04:41
How many times have you booked a flight and the name is NON-TRANSFERABLE........

Me thinks some people need to get off their soap boxes.....:hmm:

B A Lert
8th Aug 2007, 04:45
It was always going to be a bold moove for J*int to operate the routes it does with only 4, now 5 a/c

Some would call it foolhardy or even ignorant. There are many medium to longhaul carriers with higher utilisation than JQ but they know how to manage it. Are Jetstar too greedy for their boots?

Going Boeing
8th Aug 2007, 04:53
So when did QF fly SGN? I'm pretty confident that it has been some between QF ending and JQ starting, so how would that be JQ building on an established route?

EBT, when QF ceased operating B767's between SYD and SGN, they established a code share with Vietnam Airlines and have been selling seats on the route since then. J* Intl was then gifted that established route.

QFinsider
8th Aug 2007, 05:15
Funny you suggest we ought prove it JJW

It is extremely difficult for any analyst to prove or disprove the propping up of Jetstar as nothing is presented in accounts which show J* as a stand alone entity.

It is an interesting thing that they miraculously make money, yet thier start up cost for so many routes are minute. Compare it to any other airline in its first three years of operations. Have a look at the cost of start up route development and the other things required to build an airline and you will begin to realise those of us with a financial bent doubt the assertion J* makes money.

Of course it is a group thing, as Dixon would love you beleive but he has said if a segment cant return its cost of capital it will go....

Let's see how J* looks when the new accounting provisions mean more transparency and Tiger get into their wafer thin yield....:E

You see only so many things can be gifted before the tree from which the bastard child is fed starts to wither....

FOG

Chronic Snoozer
8th Aug 2007, 06:55
Not to mention the piggyback ride Jetstar gets from Qantas' advertising and customer base....Jetstar never had to build one - it inherited it. Cost saving incalculable.

QFinsider
8th Aug 2007, 08:03
Why should QF bail out J*?

If the model is so successful and my training,experience and model under which I work so outdated, let it stand alone, let us see who is a legacy...

The interesting thing is the new provisions of disclosure will provide some transparency..

My whole point on cost is that J* built nothing, it was gifted everything....
From routes to aircraft to underwriting, cost of fuel, a paperclip or a pencil...They paid market price for nothing, otherwise the start up costs would mimick any other start up...But they dont...

Show the markets an audited set of stand alone financials Geoff....


FOG

blow.n.gasket
8th Aug 2007, 09:11
Gee whiz Bula ,condition lever ,vh-jjw,a320 ,etc
might be time to re-read section 35 of your agreement !:eek:
oh yeah
FOG

The Kavorka
8th Aug 2007, 10:11
Qf insider , GB

Why do you continually try and slander JQ, like it or not they are here to stay.....GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!

did you both read the mel heral/sun last week.....regarding the article in the business section titled "Jetstar flies the rescue of Qantas", I believe they also stated the JQ will make a profit of 100 mill, not a bad effort for a new airline....and that if it was not for JQ reducing costs on QF non profitable routes it would have placed a lot of pressure on QF to make money!!!

You two need to move on, JQ will continue to expand if you like it or not!!!!!

On a final note, domestic is going great guns with near full loads most of the time!!!!!

Icarus2001
8th Aug 2007, 10:18
also stated the JQ will make a profit of 100 mill, not a bad effort for a new airline.... Can't you read? Or is comprehension a problem...they make a profit precisely because they DO NOT PAY for many things that any usual start up - stand alone carrier would have to pay for...the profit is merely creative accounting to disguise the support from the donor airline.

The Kavorka
8th Aug 2007, 10:33
IC,

does it hurt you to see JQ doing well in most areas?

You and your QF mates who continually try and justify why JQ should not exist should give it a rest!!!!! JQ is here to stay..Like it or NOT!!!!!

They are the same company for crying out loud and there is place for both LCC and full service (or lack of)...

Would you like to see ticket prices be where they were 10 years ago!!!!!

From all reports both parts of the company are doing well, and I tell you what, if GD wants to cut costs further it won't be JQ who suffers!!!!


Also I think it would pay for AIPA to get the JQ pilots on side as a new eba is only 12 months away and if it goes through whilst the mainline SH EBA is open, look out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rammel
8th Aug 2007, 10:38
I'm not surprised this route didn't work. When QF had QF3 to HNL start in MEL and go MEL-SYD-HNL with the same aircraft and flight number, there were only ever about 40-50 pax starting in MEL. This would increase a little in school holidays, but not by much.

QF did used to do SYD - SGN and have had a ticket office, with QF staff there for quite a while. So once again with the codeshare and distribution of QF already in place, it is another place they didn't start fresh.

From what I gather Phuket is about the closet they got to starting a route from scratch, but before them Australian Airlines had operated there as seasonal flights for one or two summers.

Going Boeing
8th Aug 2007, 10:43
Kav

You misunderstand. I don't have a problem with the concept of Jetstar - it fill a niche that would have been filled by someone else.

I have a problem with pilots who don't realise the value of their skills and sell themselves for way below the market rate. The J* Intl EBA should never have been signed - that was pure treachery.

VH-JJW
8th Aug 2007, 11:26
Why are some here so offended that QF provides codeshare assistance to a fully owned subsiduary?

Are those some people equally offended that QF codeshare to Nadi with Air Pacific (45% QF owned)? Lets face it, compared to Air Pac Jetstar pilots are Sheiks!

Or how about the codeshare with Air Vietnam? Is it better that the QF pax go to a foreign carrier paying a bowl of rice and a Dong a day to pilots?

Perhaps some need to put industrial agenda's aside from Business logic.

Why would QF want to operate a route at a loss when Jetstar can operate it at a profit?

Or perhaps it is not Jetstar that is the problem, but that QF pilots are not in the seats?????? After all, I do not remember reading such dedicated vitriol directed at Australian, despite the fact that they BLED the QF purse from day 1. But they did employ pilots off the QF seniority list....

Hmmmmm

Angle of Attack
8th Aug 2007, 11:34
Well I would'nt be so confident whether it will be here to stay. I don't hate it or love it I am totally neutral. However the leisure Holiday Market is the first to be hit if people start tightening their belts due to higher debt repayments. I see a future for Jetstar Domestic for sure but I'm still 50/50 whether Jet* international will remain in it's current form.

They are being mauled on the Japan route too at the moment.

I see a future for places like Phuket, Bali, Honolulu etc but I am not convinced it'd going to work on non resort places. I mean for example Japan "Oh cool I got a return fare for $700! Yay Now its just 3 or 4 k for my other 2 weeks there!" I mean if youve got that much money to spend a few hundred bucks is not really much difference to the overall experience IMO (Depending on the 20's year something accountants doing the books :E) Theres a big difference being on a hour or 2 domestic run than a 20 hour ordeal to Europe for example.

Even though I am confident Jetstar domestic does have a place, but it better get prepared for an extreme bloody nose from Tiger!


Oh yeah dont bag me for saying its $700 bucks return to Japan I just chose it as an example I dont know what the real fare is but I guess cheap ones are around that:ok:

rammel
8th Aug 2007, 11:36
I don't mind Jetstar operating on these routes, even if I don't like Jetstar per se. I would rather the QF group do it than a codeshare with someone else.

What I don't like is the way all these new routes are marketed as brand new. All the routes Jetstar have taken over have been operated by QF of Australian with in the last 5 years. They are only brand new for Jetstar, not the QF group.

swab
8th Aug 2007, 12:14
The Kavorka, You're really letting peoples comments get to you, aren't you mate? You actually sound like a bit of a nasty pasty to tell you the truth:=

aulglarse
8th Aug 2007, 13:10
KAV, we might ask these guys how many JQ pilots took advantage of the MOU? What? How many? You're kidding, right? They must be crazy for not joining. Hmmm, perhaps it's not the conditions but the culture!

How could mainline compete against VB and the new TIGER? What? another pay freeze on the way...lucky your little step-brother is here to save your arse-and a tough, cheeky little bastard too!:D

Let's Unite for skyGOD's sake!

AN Flyer
8th Aug 2007, 14:21
Why should QF bail out J*?

I think some people are missing the point of JQ. Wasn't the airline created to compliment QF, and not to stand on it's own? Was it not created to slow, if not stop, the haemorrhage of both cost, and market share to DJ that QF would have almost certainly suffered had it not started it's own, internal LCC three years ago?

My whole point on cost is that J* built nothing, it was gifted everything....From routes to aircraft to underwriting, cost of fuel, a paperclip or a pencil...They paid market price for nothing, otherwise the start up costs would mimick any other start up...But they dont...

Yes, but QF is still here isnt it? Its saved QF's hiney from the rampant expansion of DJ, has it not? QF as a result, continues to support an enormous workforce, which (by the way) dwarfs the handful of people (only about 3,000 or so) that seem to work for JQ, has a large fleet of planes (130-150?) compared to JQ's meager, what - 29? I've witnesses QF ground staff checking in JQ internationals work in SYD & BNE. From what I see, QF Engineering apparently handle the A330s that operate JQ internationals services. I really dont know why you guys get so fired up about Jetstar. Is the threat THAT large to you? Would the alternative of DJ eroding QF's market share necessarily make things better?

You see only so many things can be gifted before the tree from which the bastard child is fed starts to wither....

Perhaps, but would it be good for it to wither? Would it not leave QF vulnerable, especially considering the upcoming launch of Tiger? How about those who work for the bastard child? Do they deserve to be out of work as a result of that happening?

Interesting, what people think of JQ. Everyone seems to bag it on these forums. So it's cheap and nasty - isnt it doing more good than harm? :confused:

Keg
8th Aug 2007, 22:03
AN Flyer, none of your points are incorrect. The gripe from most QF employees is the BS that comes along with it. If J* were charged as a customer for a dispatch at SIT instead of being charged a heavily subsidised rate then the profit would take a small dint. If they were charged for a lot of the equipment that QF has 'gifted' to them then they'd take another dint. Over time these little dints here and there would add up and the profit shown would be significantly less than what it is.

This would mean that the rhetoric around J* would have to be scaled back to more reasonable levels.

As Going Boeing mentioned earlier, most QF drivers are comfortable with the principle behind J* as being a LCC but what we object to is the continued reference to how much money they make whilst mainline is 'expensive' when there are 'costs' that mainline wear that subsidise J*'s profitability.

mrpaxing
8th Aug 2007, 22:30
how are costs shared on the city flyer? you fly mel-per-mel on city flyer on a J* ticket, get a free meal and beer/wine. now who is paying for that?:confused:

toolish
8th Aug 2007, 22:35
I love this Qf props up Jq rhetoric only one problem,no proof but that's right non req this is a rumour network:ugh:. One thing for sure is yes planes and fuel negotiated at qantas rates but the rest, yeah sure.

people so concerned about the profit Jq makes just imagine if they operated on the route Qf makes a profit not just the loss making ones.
Oh no sorry I forgot Qf makes a profit everywhere its just those accounting principles at work again.

Keg
8th Aug 2007, 22:51
How much does JQ pay for a dispatch at SIT? I can tell you that the answer is 'considerably less than any other customer and nil profit to Qantas'.

I can also tell you that JQ has refused payment for some items fixed by QF on the aircraft. A colleague of mine now treats JQ the same way that he used to treat Austrian....if something is needed to be fixed then he gets the Captain to sign the purchase order.

radiation junkie
8th Aug 2007, 23:31
Yes, Jetsars is wonderful. A fantastic disease, all part of the strategy plan created by GD to destroy Q mainline, it's expensive spoilt crew, both cabin and tech, those pesky overpaid lame's that find too many things wrong with the aircraft. The loss of morale and overall shrinking of Q is all part of the grand scheme. End result, big bonus payout for the talented short sighted management. I can just see the robot from "Lost in Space" ....

YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL ..... YOU MUST BE DES TROYED

FOG

VH-JJW
9th Aug 2007, 00:26
Keg,

Have you considered that JQ are FORCED to be handled by QF out of SIT? The options are a lot cheaper and better I can assure you. Plus with the added bonus that JQ may actually be given some priority rather than 'sorry we are too busy as QF?? has problems, you will be delayed'.

As for QF Engineering on the A330 - don't get me started. Perhaps you should go away and do some research as to the dispatch reliability of QF group A330's. Below WORLD average.

Incedentally SQ have been very happy since they moved over their ground handling from QF. Dispatch reliability improved, customer service improved.....

Yes I am sure Jetstar are rubbing their hands together over the 'mates rates' given by QF .....NOT.

cokecropduster
9th Aug 2007, 00:30
Just a few other things that are subsidised by QF:

- Freight runs done by QF B767's going across the tasman without pax for JQ.

- Cleaning time for the JQ INT aircraft is 50 mins. but QF only gets 45 mins.

- JQ pax are flying QF domestically. Code-share!

Only three things but how much would it be costing Mainline???:ugh:

QFinsider
9th Aug 2007, 01:37
Dixon alluded to the "J* will defend the mainline brand, as a vital plank in our defence" then a year later he went on about implying "legacy airline" COSTS were the problem.
My point is simple...
Want me to believe J* is worth what it costs, then compare apples with apples. The reality, is unfortunately for the believers lower wages are merely a smoke screen for an industrial policy designed to drive down terms and conditions at mainline...

Thus if you want me to belieive Geoffrey, (there there you elephant's scrotum lil fella) that my cost base is the issue, show me a true picture of the J* equation...They do not do it, because it does not return its cost of capital, low yield flying the routes we used to fly burning the same fuel, paying same enroute and terminal charges, with the only differential labour costs..What a load of rubbish change hands Geoff..
It is Ian Oldmeadow all over...unfortunately another prune too long in the sun

The arguement about stopping another competitor coming into australia was rubbish Tiger is coming...
Wafer thin margins, low yield routes and new accounting provisions...Let's see how well J* actually does..:E

flyingins
9th Aug 2007, 05:54
Fine. Hope Jetstar fails. That way Qantas will have to; a) compete head-to-head against Tiger and Virgin on ALL of its routes; b) cede a massive chunk of domestic and international marketshare and; c) aggressively and unilaterally lower mainline wages and conditions to achieve a & b.

If you think Jetstar will get a blood nose from Tiger, just imagine the carnage they'd inflict on Qantas without their "low-cost" line of defence. More than just a mere flesh wound!

As for (c), mainline pilots are aggreived at the impact of the Jetstar pilot's terms and conditions upon their own working conditions. Compared to what may have happened without the establishment and promotion of the Jetstar brand, I think you've done quite well. No wage drops. No forced redundancies. Limited opportunities for promotion at the moment. A stable future. NONE OF YOU WILL LOSE YOUR JOBS. YOU'LL ALL GET COMMANDS, PERHAPS IT WILL JUST TAKE A LITTLE LONGER. YOUR WAGES WILL RISE AGAIN.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. We just fly the planes. If you really want to make a difference, go and get an MBA, climb the corporate ladder and do something about it!

Or, just whinge like a bunch of girls on PPRUNE. That could work too.

aulglarse
9th Aug 2007, 06:06
Well said flyingins:D:D:D If I had a hat I'd take it off to you:D Now take these gloves off for the Tiger..they are the only new enemy right?

VH-JJW
9th Aug 2007, 06:22
'Or, just whinge like a bunch of girls on PPRUNE. That could work too.'

Unforunately it seems that it is always the same suspects who mount the 'lets bash Jetstar' bandwagon.

There is very little fact posted here about Jetstar and a lot of 'rumour with intent'. Perhaps for a change some of the usual suspects could try to back up their statements rather than launching another grenade.

I can tell you from the other side of the fence the constant 'anti' drivel that gets fired over our way IS having an effect. It is galvanising, and not in a way which supports pilot unity. Due to the constant ear / keyboard bashing they have received most Jetstar pilots do not bother to read Pprune anymore, let alone post.

As correctly posted above, Jetstar has provided a protective buffer for the Qantas group.. Without Jetstar QF would be bleeding on destinations like the Gold Coast and Tasmania. This before Tiger's entry.

Internationally Australian Airlines was not able to mount serious competition on routes like Bali and Phuket, let alone QF mainline. Once again Jetstar provides an alternative for the QF group which keeps the profits 'in house'.

I think you will find that despite the low fares, the Return on Gross Assets currently provided by Jetstar domestic is on a par with QF domestic. Qantas International is hopeless. Compare the value of the International fleet versus the returns generated ( I know this is not a popular thought amongst the -400 drivers).

Jetstar is here to stay (as permanent as that can be in aviation). It is time that some QF drivers woke up and supported their cousins taking crap from and for them.

AN Flyer
9th Aug 2007, 06:23
Fine. Hope Jetstar fails. That way Qantas will have to; a) compete head-to-head against Tiger and Virgin on ALL of its routes; b) cede a massive chunk of domestic and international marketshare and; c) aggressively and unilaterally lower mainline wages and conditions to achieve a & b.

Couldnt agree more Flyingins. It would be interesting to see that. JQ fails, leaving a vastly higher cost Qantas against a bare bones Tiger, and to a large extent, DJ - without having JQ keeping the money (and market share) in the group. Any estimate on how long QF short haul would survive in it's current form? :rolleyes: Carnage would a word that would come to mind. Anyone care to watch another icon go the way of another full service carrier that once flew?

JQ pax are flying QF domestically. Code-share!

Cokecropduster - you do realise this is essentially because all JQ flights ADL, SYD, BNE end up in AVV, right? What - you're going to put a punter on a SYD-AVV J* domestic and then bus them to MEL for a MEL-DPS? :hmm:

most QF drivers are comfortable with the principle behind J* as being a LCC but what we object to is the continued reference to how much money they make whilst mainline is 'expensive' when there are 'costs' that mainline wear that subsidise J*'s profitability.

Keg - totally mate, and look - no argument there, I can see where you're coming from. Can appreciate that, just seem to disagree with the few who believe that QF would have been potentially better off without the star than with it.

Bolty McBolt
9th Aug 2007, 06:43
We all know Jet* is not about being or providing a service.

Its about bums on seats for low cost and Jet * making a profit from the margin.

If Melbournian bogans did not want to fly bogun air for what ever reasons, the flight gets pulled. As someone already stated in this thread the Jet* fleet is run on the tightest of Schedule so I am sure they would not hesitate to move an aircraft from an unproductive route to a cash making destination.

I have no stats but perhaps Victorians don't travel enough to fill a plane, I know MEL international is enough to put me off flying, maybe they are all to engrossed in the AFL season to visit the rest of the world...


Climbs’ into foxhole and takes cover from angry Vics

Keg
9th Aug 2007, 07:18
JJW, delude yourself all you like that you're having QF engineering foisted upon you. The reality is that you're getting the A330 dispatched significantly more cheaply than you would with ANY other contractor through Sydney. I'm not going to start throwing hard numbers around here. I have my sources and they remain my sources simply because I don't burn them.

What I (and my colleagues) object to has been previously stated on this thread. I note that you ignored that issue and instead trot out the same tired old line that the 'anti' drivel is aimed at J* pilots.

How many times does it have to be said though, my beef (and the beef of 95% of those I fly with) is NOT with the J* pilots group. I think you were dudded when you went from QFLink to J* (gun at the head and I understand the reaction of the Impulse pilots at the time). I think you were naive when you signed the wide body agreement to not see the impending pilot shortage and the possibilities that you could have asked for. Beyond those two points I have nothing personally against the J* pilot group. For you and other J* contributors to PPRUNE to continue to imply that AIPA and QF drivers agenda is to see J* pilots out of a job is the very least ignorant and at most an outright misrepresentation of reality. I don't know why you keep doing it unless you have your own agenda to push? Which is it?

QFinsider
9th Aug 2007, 07:18
well good...
Show me an audited set of J* accounts...

I do have the financial qualifications as alluded to above....

Again show me a stand alone set of accounts and then I will believe the viability or otherwise of J*. Am particularly interested in how it pays for what it gets from mainline..........

Nothing to do with who has the bigger appendage...

B A Lert
9th Aug 2007, 09:59
Perhaps for a change some of the usual suspects could try to back up their statements rather than launching another grenade.


Well JJW, here's your chance!

Without Jetstar QF would be bleeding on destinations like the Gold Coast and Tasmania.

OK. Where's the proof of your assertion?

Internationally Australian Airlines was not able to mount serious competition on routes like Bali and Phuket, let alone QF mainline. .

Again, where's the proof of your assertions? So far as Phuket is concerned, to the best of my recall, no one has ever operated from Australia direct Phuket except AO on a seasonal basis and now JQ.

But the real point is how much uncosted help has been given JQ by its owner. For example -
1. did they produce the various ops manuals for the A330 or did they simply do a 'cut and paste' of the QF manuals and then call them their own, as did another of its subsidiaries.

2. did they negotiate fuel contracts independently of QF or are they buying fuel under the aegis of QF contracts/volumes?

3. how many computer systems owned by QF are Jetstar using as the cost of an ab initio set-up are horrendous?

A full and audited set of accounts will reveal all as QF Insider says but will we ever have the benefit of seeing them? I doubt it as they will show that Jetstar is profitable only because of the assistance they are receiving from Qantas (and of course friendly Governments and Airport owners who are offering all kinds of incentives to have them use their facilities like Cairns, Singapore and Kuala Lumpur)

VH-JJW
9th Aug 2007, 10:22
Keg,

Ignorant, delusional, naive? I will try to stay on the ball.

I am not interested in getting into a pissing competition on sources, I stand by what I said, no delusions.

Whilst I can see that from your own perspective you have no personal issue with the Jetstar Pilots (apart from our T & C as said above) I think you need to re-read the other contributions and put yourself in our shoes. As I said, most of us do not bother looking here anymore.

How else would you describe the anti Jetstar drivel? If Jetstar or DJ pilots continually rolled out vitriol whenever the name Qantas was mentioned how would you react? Sometimes it is directed at the airline, others at the pilots, often both. Have a look at the history of any posts to do with Jetstar, they follow the same pattern.

I do not believe that AIPA's agenda is to put Jetstar pilots out of a job, nor have I said such (past Presidents negotiation tactics aside). I think they actually get JQ domestic. I do however think that AIPA believe QF pilots should crew JQ International. (get IW to put in writing that they don't).

I do however believe that a large contingent of QF pilots believe Jetstar pilots have dudded them of something and are resentful. I do not believe that I implied this extended to seeing JQ pilots out of work, I do however believe that it is manifested in the mischievous postings of some on this forum.

QFinsider, congratulations you have financial qualifications!

rammel
9th Aug 2007, 10:35
Thai used to fly their late night flight from SYD-MEL-Phuket, then on to BKK. They were doing this from about the March before the tsunami hit. They stopped it soon after the tsunami. At the time it did appear that even though it started off slowly, there was before the tsunami about 1/4-1/3 of the flight getting off in Phuket.

Also TG fly to Phuket from PER (once or twice a week) and you will struggle to get on sub load for most of the year.

VH-JJW
9th Aug 2007, 10:35
BaLert,

Would the route profitability for those routes under QF do? Yes it would however I am not prepared to lose my job. Maybe you could settle for GD's numerous assertions that QF could not make money on Tassy or the Gold Coast. I might add that neither could AN, so why is it so suprising that full service carriers are not succesful in the leisue markets?

Re: Australian Airlines, er um why did they close down if they were so succesful. From memory their last result was a loss of some millions. Of course that would not be the full and true loss as they must have been massively supported by Mainline :}.

A330 manuals FCOM, I did not realise QF made up their own........

As to fuel etc. Would it not make sound business sense to jointly negotiate contracts? I would consider it remiss if the QF GROUP (i.e. regionals etc.) do not jointly negotiate wherever possible for the lowest rate. Are you seriously suggesting otherwise?

Too tired, click.

B A Lert
9th Aug 2007, 10:54
Too tired

...and a little emotional? :hmm:

Maybe you could settle for GD's numerous assertions that QF could not make money on Tassy or the Gold Coast.

Recent track record suggests that his assertions are best ignored.

Would the route profitability for those routes under QF do?

How would a Jetstar employee get these, and why would he or she taunt anyone about them. Be a real devil and reveal all: we won't tell anyone.

My comments on Australian were based on DenPasar and Phuket where they had Garuda for competition on the former route and no one on the latter. Yes, they did lose heaps but to be fair they also had a lot of grenades thrown their way such as bombings in Bali, SARS, and a tsumami to name a couple of adverse events. I don't recall AO having the various self-imploding problems that Jetstar International have experienced since its ventures off-shore.

On the many contract issues, they DO make business sense for the Qantas Group but when we are talking about Jetstar profitability, they only serve to enhance whatever profit, if any, Jetstar makes.

I hope you are a better pilot than you are advocate. :ok:

max autobrakes
9th Aug 2007, 11:53
Probably an ace after 4 sims!:}

aulglarse
9th Aug 2007, 14:11
BA, self-imploding problems? Geez ,you're right about the 4 self-imploding pieces of shit we inherited from a reputable, conservative airline.

How about we give you these beauties back immediately and let the media play on it.

FFRATS
9th Aug 2007, 15:11
People can argue how 'profitable' QF v Australian Airlines (AO) v JQ are on a route.
Some creative accounting comes into place that can +/- company worth for any ASX/QF general meeting profit announcement.
For example lots of pax to DPS (Bali) use Frequent Flyer points and also book through Qantas Holidays (HNL incl.). When points are used this way on a lower seat cost sector, as AO was, QF benefit as this is less liability shown on their books. As resilient Bali is a popular destination with many Australians, even during off season, it could fill a 270 seat AC regularly with a mix of high paying pax from Europe and FFlyers on cheap trip.
AO did well on DPS from SYD MEL and PER. I'm sure QF preferred this Frequent Flyer holiday route than say SYD-LAX-SYD that makes high yeild but still has to offer seats for FFlyer program.
Through many testing times (SARS- HKG, Bombing,etc) AO mainly made a loss but had certain factors reflected 'real' cost savings on QF's profit's AO could have shown reasonable figures.
My point is that AO 'served it's purpose' (Geoff Dixon). It saved the QF group millions on certain routes and protected others at a cheaper cost than mainline. AO is still saving money on NRT otherwise it would not have been 'wetleased' AO till Sept.
It's easy to 'account' for running costs and make them all rosy.
AO spin was one direction. Surely JQ is not another:)
FFRATS

Keg
9th Aug 2007, 17:24
eez ,you're right about the 4 self-imploding pieces of shit we inherited from a reputable, conservative airline.

Whilst it's highly unusual for me to leap to the defence of an airbus, I should note that for the most part, QF didn't have any significant dispatch reliability with the aircraft prior to giving them to J*. Not sure why they've gone down hill since.

Any ginger beers out there who can venture an opinion?

B A Lert
10th Aug 2007, 02:13
Keg - I've asked on several threads about the reliability of the A330's in QF service compared with them JQ's service. No one has provided an answer but as sure as day follows night, the info is somehwre 'out there'. My gut feel is that QF did not have the same issues. Have the maintenance arrangements changed since transfer to JQ?

As an aside, I believe that AO successfully operated a fleet of 4 and then 5 old 767's on a very tight schedule. Did they have similar 'engineering' problems and delays experienced by JQ?

The Kavorka
11th Aug 2007, 03:46
Have spoken to a 330FO from QF and he noted that they 330 was very unreliable when operated by mainline!!

swab
11th Aug 2007, 12:35
.......you would be expected to take that line.

Keg
11th Aug 2007, 12:57
It was a shocker in the early days...mostly due to airports lack of familiarity to it rather than any significant engineering issues. Is it one or two engine failures in recent times? This must put ETOPS on CASA's radar if it's two! Lucky CASA haven't upgraded the radar from the WWII model received at surplus sales. :eek: :E