Super cruise

[wondering]

Is super cruise really that big of a deal? Going through my literature, I was surprised to read that the TSR2 was able to go easily supersonic without reheat. And that was in the 60s. So, what other airplanes are able to super cruise?

[ShyTorque]

Super cruise

Glad you liked it.......which ship? Oh, I see what you mean! :O

[bgc]

Concorde is the first that springs to mind

There's a list of supercruise aircraft here but most of the article is unverified

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercruise

[splitbrain]

Its no co-incidence that both Concorde and TSR2 were fitted with the same basic engine, i.e. the Bristol Olympus albeit in 320 and 593 variants. They achieved supercruise by sheer brute force, the twin spool turbojet Olympus' they used produced between 20,000 and 31,000lbs of dry thrust repsectively. Compare that with the EJ200 turbo-fan fitted to Typhoon which produces a mere 13,000 lbs dry but is a much lighter and more compact unit.

[ORAC]

The Lightning could supercruise at M1.2. It had to use min burner to accelerate, but could then throttle back to cold.

[EyesFront]

You can almost certainly add the Avro CF105 Arrow to the list -it's power/weight ratio would be impressive now, let alone in the fifties
RIP

[rigpiggy]

Considering the Arrow attained 1.9ish on the J75 engines, with the iroquois installed it easily should have supercruised.

The J75 had a dry thrust of 5,700 kilograms (12,500 pounds), and an afterburning thrust of 8,400 kilograms (18,500 pounds). The Iroquois was the most powerful engine in North America, with a dry thrust of 8,400 kilograms (18,500 pounds) and an afterburning thrust of 11,800 kilograms (26,000 pounds). It had an unprecedented 5:1 thrust to weight ratio, achieved partly to the extensive use of titanium.


Allegedly they found an iroquois engine in storage in the UK a precursor to the olympus perhaps???

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Incipient Thread Drift

AVRO Canada maintained a very close relationship with the "parent" Company in England. There would be a whole host of reasons for an Iroquois finding its way here. It seems unlikely that it was "a precursor to the Olympus" on time lines alone. The Bristol Olympus first ran in 1950 and first flew in '53. The Iroquois, on the other hand, completed detail design in May '54, first ran in December '55 and first flew in November '57. Interestingly, Charles Grinyer joined AVRO Orenda in Aprlil '52 to take charge of the Iroquois programme had previously been responsible certification of the Olympus at Bristol's

[EyesFront]

I visited Ottawa a couple of weeks ago and was interested to see that the whole Arrow debacle is still an open sore for Canadians - as the TSR2 shambles is for those of us who can remember it. I was a schoolboy at the time but suffice to say that no labour politician will ever get my vote!

I saw the last, sad fragments of the Arrow in the aviation museum, then found that the museum shop is stuffed full of books, mousemats, pictures, DVDs, mugs and models of the Arrow.

Apologies for the thread creep - this deserves a thread of its own somewhere...

[NutLoose]

Then as a labour of love, one man built a full size cockpit of the Arrow, he thought might, hmmmm, might as well do a fuselage, then the wings etc till once again there was a full size replica of that magnificent aircraft....... A company making a film come documentary on the Arrow asked for its loan, which he willingly did, filming ended when he went to get his one mans dream back he found to his horror the crew had cut it up to show the wanton destruction that was carried out on the Arrow..............

He was gutted, there is a full size one just been completed of late, but as for the one this man built I would love to know if it survived.......

[wondering]

Yep, Concorde is an obvious one. I guess no way to fly three hours with reheat :}

The Arrow 105 was way ahead of its time as well. But in a nutshell, wasn´t the Arrow project simply too big and to expensive for Canada to go alone? Why is it, that countries can´t cooperate on such large scale projects :confused:

[MightyGem]

In a, possibly futile, attempt to get back on thread: any modern aircraft??

[splitbrain]

Any modern aircraft that super cruise do you mean?

Typhoon for one.

[High_lander]

F-22A Raptor, F-35 Lightning II, Typhoon are certs.

Not too sure. I think I heard that Rafale could

[BentStick]

The F-111 can supercrusie.

[MightyGem]

Typhoon for one.
Correct. 9 10

[Magoodotcom]

The F-111 can supercrusie.

I've heard this too, but always wondered whether it can get there in mil alone or whether it needs burners to get there before pulling back into mil?

Cheers

Magoo

[superfrozo]

A little bird told me that the Pig can only supercruise in a shallow dive, and yes - it does require A/B to intially get it 'over the hump'.

Sorry to blow up that urban legend.

Then again, the Oz Pigs only had the P109, with a measly 12,000lbs per side dry. The F-models may (should?) have been able to make a much better go of it.

Any USAF or RAAF exchange types care to enlighten us?

[BombayDuck]

I've heard the Mirage 2000 can, too, but at very little over Mach 1 and it puts a lot of stress on the airframe (being more transonic than supersonic). Is this true?

[Magoodotcom]

A little bird told me that the Pig can only supercruise in a shallow dive, and yes - it does require A/B to intially get it 'over the hump'.
Sorry to blow up that urban legend.
Then again, the Oz Pigs only had the P109, with a measly 12,000lbs per side dry. The F-models may (should?) have been able to make a much better go of it.

The hybrid P108s have a bit more grunt though - around 14.5K dry if I recall correctly. Certainly the F model's 16.5K would get it close, although once you start hanging stores off them, obviously it would be that much harder.

I guess when discussing supercruise, it only really becomes a relevant capability if it can be done with a useful warload, e.g. F-22's all-internal AAMs/JDAMs, and I understand the Typhoon can carry a couple of AAMs (but not jugs?) and still bust through.

Cheers

Magoo

[Raymond Ginardon]

Some ac can 'technically' supercruise, but this is very different to 'useful' supercruise. Some of the older ac mentioned here can (just....) creep past the mach given the right conditions (height, clean, good motors) but can't carry anything much offensive in this state - and turning rather spoils their supersonic day too.

The more modern stuff (some examples mentioned) can usefully supercruise. Some do this by (amongst other things) being less aerodynamically stable than legacy platforms and some do it by having a MASSIVE amount of dry thrust.

Ray :-)

[Spaghetti Monster]

A little bird told me that the Pig can only supercruise in a shallow dive

During testing for the P109 introduction, the jet stayed at about M1.2 at F350 after thrust was reduced to mil.

One of the books on the Pig states that during testing back in the '60s, they got one supersonic at low level over the Nevada desert (so not really low level at all...) without burner - now that I find hard to believe, given the drag rise at about .98 and that they were using an A model.

[buoy15]

I believe the Space Shuttle can, on re-entry, with the use of a 'puffer' engine for correction - even down to landing - might be wrong though:cool:

[L J R]

F-111F with P-111+ engines (with CBs IN) can (Could) sustain M1+ in Mil. They needed Min A/B (As a minimum) to get over the hump as there was a noticeable M crit DRAG Hump to overcome (al be it briefly and with ease). The key was Wing sweep/ AoA management. As stated earlier - once you put a -131 pod/or AGM-130/GBU15 Data Link Pod or wing mounted stores on the beast, it would trickle below the number unless AB was engaged.


Dropping Hi Drag Mk 84 AIR's - (a relic of last century) at low level at supersonic speed was almost the most fun to have in aviation...


...and yes you definately needed Afterburner to do that, even in the F-111F.


...must close now - a tear is developing ....

[TMor]

I've heard the Mirage 2000 can, too, but at very little over Mach 1 and it puts a lot of stress on the airframe (being more transonic than supersonic). Is this true?
In clean configuration. Just above mach 1. This doesn't make it a supercruiser. Supercruise is when the aircraft reach at least mach1.2/mach1.3.

[cornish-stormrider]

And how is supercriuse going to help? At that speed the grobag might spill his gin and tonic:E