Cathay Pacific CoS - URGENT ATTENTION REQUIRED

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Not my work but I do agree with [email protected] the author, I quote from his email received this week.......

"..........*PLEASE READ & FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO ALL CX F/O's & S/O's ASAP*

Dear Colleagues/Friends,
As you are all aware, the Company and the AOA have been in talks over the last 2 months regarding the important issues of Pay, Retirement Age and Direct Entry First Officers. The talks are nearing completion and a proposal is expected to be put forward in early August.
What you may not know, is the seriousness the outcome of these talks and subsequent vote, to the rest of your career at Cathay Pacific.
The company has indicated that there is some money on the table for the pay talks. It’s how they plan to use this money that is of greatest concern. Let me explain by telling you what the likely proposal will contain.
<LI class=MsoNormal>Instantaneous extension of retirement age to 65. <LI class=MsoNormal>Any extension beyond age 55 will be on current pay scale. Ie A Scalers can work to age 65 on A Scale pay inclusive of yearly increments. <LI class=MsoNormal>Bypass pay for all officers affected by this extension who remain on COS99
Introduction of COS08 that includes:<LI class=MsoNormal>Retirement age 65 <LI class=MsoNormal>Waiving of bypass pay until an officer is extended beyond age 65
All new joiners and based crew will have to sign. (CX is claiming that due to local discrimination laws, based crew will be required to be on a contract that doesn’t discriminate against age)
DEFO pay to be introduced to pax and freighter fleets as follows<LI class=MsoNormal>Yr 1 – Freighter FO 1 pay <LI class=MsoNormal>Yr 2 – Freighter FO 2 pay <LI class=MsoNormal>Yr 3 – Freighter FO 3 pay <LI class=MsoNormal>Yr 4 – Intermediate amount between Freighter FO 3 and Pax SFO 1 <LI class=MsoNormal>Yr 5 – Pax SFO 1 pay
Yr 6 - Pax SFO 2 pay etc etc <LI class=MsoNormal>An insult of a pay increase, not much more than 5% over the next 2.5 years!
BEWARE - It will be advertised as something different, but if you look closely, its not.What does this mean to those of us who have not attained the rank of Captain, or are a relatively junior Captain?

Conservative estimates put the Average delay to command at 3-4 years<LI class=MsoNormal>That’s 3-4 years that you are not earning command pay, and this money (your money) is going toward the funding of extending A scalers on A Scale Pay!
This estimate is if the company continue to expand at the current rate. It will be longer if we have a downturn.
Bypass pay will be paid to those officers who remain on CoS99<LI class=MsoNormal>however, bypass pay never leaves the Captain Year 1 pay increment (have a look at the difference between SFO Yr 6 pay and Captain Yr 1 pay. There’s not much difference!) <LI class=MsoNormal>The company has indicated that they have already set aside funds to pay the bypass pay. They need age 65 and are willing to pay bypass pay, which is cheaper that slowing their expansion. <LI class=MsoNormal>Officers on CoS08 will not be paid bypass pay for over 55 extendees.
If an officer is on Cos08 and at the top of the FO seniority list and there is one extended Captain, then there is no bypass pay paid. If there are 2 Captains extended, and the top FO is on Cos08 and the next FO is on Cos99, then only one lot of bypass pay paid. If there are 3 Captains extended and the third FO is on CoS08, then there is still only one lot of bypass pay paid. So on and so on. Another saving for the company to help fund the A Scalers.
Delayed or non-existent based opportunities
Just think of the number of A scalers who have been planning to retire at 55, and have enough money to do so, now willing to take the pay decrease to take a base. It’s now just pocket money to them. Bases will become somewhere where the senior aircrew go to see out their days, not somewhere you can take your family after upgrading to captain.How is it possible that this proposal could even be considered by the GC, let alone put to us to vote on?

The GC is not representative of its members or the CX aircrew body. Here is the rough membership breakdown<LI class=MsoNormal>CX F/O's total - 1050 of which 520 are AOA members <LI class=MsoNormal>CX Capt's total - 750 of which 425 are AOA members
CX S/O's total - not exactly sure, but slight majority are members<LI class=MsoNormal>Approx 15 of the 22 GC members are A Scale captains
Only 2 F/O's currently on the GC!Who stands to benefit from this proposal?
<LI class=MsoNormal>100 of our 1000 odd members (Approx 100 A Scalers are members) <LI class=MsoNormal>200-300 A Scalers who are non members.
CX. They get to solve their self made problem of not having enough Captains to fulfil their expansion plansWho stands to lose from this proposal?
<LI class=MsoNormal>YOU!
Including those of you who are NON HKAOA members!! Join Now to vote!What can we do?

Of course voting NO is an obvious way of showing your disgust at your future being sold down the toilet for a bunch that have had it good for so many years already, at the expense of US, the junior officers.<LI class=MsoNormal>The chances are, the company will just introduce age 65 anyway, as they have done with the extension of C & T Captains already.
BUT, if we can get everyone to vote and have a say, to show the company and the AOA that the VAST MAJORITY of the aircrew body thinks this PROPOSAL STINKS, then we have more of a chance to deflect this attack on OUR future.
Write to the AOA in mass numbers, demanding that they fight for pay and conditions for the majority of the membership, not just a small few. Demand that they tell the company, in no uncertain terms, that the B scale pilot body is not going to fund the solution to the company’s own mess. It is our future, and we must do everything we can to protect it!
FORWARD THIS EMAIL ON to ALL of your CX F/O and S/O friends and colleagues, members or not.
JOIN THE AOA and VOTE. If you are not a member of the AOA, JOIN NOW. There is still time for you to join and have your say. Don’t look back in a few years time and say “I wish I had of spent a couple of hundred dollars to have my voice heard”. Join now by emailing [email protected] (mhtml:{CD7BFD9C-9B85-412B-8B5F-21B43AAD9EF9}mid://00000004/!x-usc:mailto:[email protected]) This is no time for finger pointing and blaming anyone else for what we are about to be presented with. This is a time where we need UNITY. We all have the same objective – TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE.
Please forward this email on to you friends and write to the AOA now at [email protected] (mhtml:{CD7BFD9C-9B85-412B-8B5F-21B43AAD9EF9}mid://00000004/!x-usc:mailto:[email protected]) demanding they accept nothing less than a fair proposal for all.
Thank you for your time..........."

[Mr. Bloggs]

I can only assume that all the B-Scale Captains are willing to fund the A-Scale extensions. They help protect them in ’99. A-Scalers got many CX shares at $7.47 thanks to the help of the B-Scalers. I am sure they will help out again.:ouch:

I am sure they will ask for all your help in this situation whether you are an S/O or F/O.:O

Let’s not forget our ASL comrades. We must welcome them so the freighter deal can be eliminated from your contract. I am sure all the based pilots love to help CX fly the freighters with the great rostering practices they have and spend 8 or more days away from home instead of the usual 4. But you know, it is interesting flying.:=

Retirement age, well I think it speaks for itself but I am sure some will come up with some statistics to tell you that it will not affect you.

Big vote, are you up for the task?:sad:

[cpdude]

Big vote, are you up for the task?

NO! I mean yes but NO...NO...NO!:}

[jumpseat]

"A" Scaler......... Aircrew joining on advertised pay scale
"B" Scaler........ Aircrew joining on much reduced pay scale.
"Freighter" Scale..... Aircrew joining on...... well not much
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
This really is a no brainer. Lets move forward.
Before "B" scale there was no "A" scale.
"A" Scale is the name for salaries paid before "B" Scalers showed up. Think about it? Salaries continue downward. Everybody blames everybody else for the reduction in ensuing salaries. STOP. We have an opportunity here that hasn't occurred in living memory.
Move Forward. Do not dumb down.
Unite forchrissake, Unite. If the negotiation team do not come up with the goodies then Vote NO. If no goodies forthcoming... STRIKE
If you wont STRIKE to protect your contract, then cease and desist , do your job, look for another employer.
No one other than you will protect your contract. The AOA, whatever that is, cannot ensure your future is protected, only you can.
Endex.

[westelevengenius]

It doesn't matter what the pay rise (same goes for Dragon)...lets say it's 6%...that's 1% per year for the last 6 years (where there hasn't been a pay rise) and then you will get nothing for the next 6 with these tight pricks...so 6% over 12 years - mmmm I don't think so you assholes!....just don't accept anything, run them hard for the next 6-12mths and make the bastards bleed when they have no choice.

We all have the chance to treat them like they do with us now, let's enjoy it for a few months and then watch them come crawling...no one wants to come to HK anymore, this place is dead in the water and another 6-12mths of a hiring pool that is drying up will see these complete tools running around like keystone cops.

[The Management]

Unity, Unity, Unity. There is no unity amongst the Cathay pilots except for ones self. Is your unity similar to the unity you had when we fired 49 bad apples in one day? I see your group went on strike then.

Many pilots were so scared they could not accomplish your Maximum Safety Strategy.

Many will sign this agreement because they know it is healthier than the alternative, we will implement this contract and you have no say. You will loose the little money we have on the table.

Your AOA/GC understands this so they will recommend this agreement. The GC will not take an industrial stance on this and when we have to terminate some pilots, the GC will not be unscathed.

The pilot group will sign the new agreement and some will opt to stay on COS 99. Their conditions will not change but we successfully introduced COS 08 for new joiners. You will remain on COS 99 but certain agreements within that COS will be removed because of ASL integration.

This will be a new contract and will have two choices; 1. Remain on COS 99 2. Join on COS 08. There will not be a third option.

Our propaganda machines are standing by and we will have our posters on Pprune stopping the counter attacks. The DFO will write an article on the benefits of COS 08 as will your own GC.

It is futile for you to resist this new COS. It will happen, it just depends if you would like a little money for it.

In some ways, I would like to see a little resistance, makes the cream come to the top and much easier to terminate it.

The Management

[AAIGUY]

At the end of the day , "the management" is quite right.

The pilot group didn't strike over the 49'ers, and they won't now.

AOA cut off it's own balls years ago. The company knows this. They could CUT salaries by 5% tommorow and housing by 25% and virtually everyone would stay.

Sad fact is, that

1. you have no choice but to accept whatever bones are thrown at you

2. this situation is a direct result of previous "non action"


The only shot you guys have is a wild cat strike (without any warning so as not to give CX chance to wet lease). If you guys did that, you would win.

But THAT will never happen..

[cpdude]

The Management,

You provide a great service...thankyou!

In the end I will vote NO! It will not matter as CX does what they want. But, what they can never get is the support from their employees.
I will however continue to vote "NO" on all issues of operations.

Will I save fuel...NO!
Will I work a "G" day...NO!
Will I answer my phone...NO!
Will I be helpful...NO!

I will vote yes on one issue though...I promise to creatively and strategically manage my own sickness rate!

If we are smart, there is nothing you can do! Can you really fire hundreds of guys dragging their heel who may or may not appear to be doing it on purpose? And if you do, so be it...I can go elsewhere!

Productivity you say? I think it has just been reduced! At least mine has! :}

Too bad, all you have to do is be fair with your employees and lead by example! Start with a fair profit share scheme for all or cancel it for everyone NR!

[fire wall]

This is pathetic.
Previous posters are attempting to stir up a resistance (more than likely non AOA members beating their chests) or declaring your course of action on a motion that has not even been put foward and may bear no resembelance to what Alpha Floor has regurgitated.
When are you going to grow up?

[Bwatchful]

Cathay Pacific Avoids Strike as Its Pilots Blink

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By Philip Segal





Published: FRIDAY, JUNE 11, 1999
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HONG KONG: Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. and its pilots' union reached a last-minute agreement Thursday, averting a possible strike after the pilots accepted nearly all the airline's major demands.



http://www.iht.com/articles/1999/06/11/cathay.2.t_1.php

[shapeshifterer]

Very interesting

I wonder how many will leave like they said they would WHEN everyone gets shafted.

I agree with all the revious posts.....lets not point fingers....the only way things can improve is by everyone sticking together!!!!

Its not as if all the cx pilots really want to live in HK anyway.....whats the point in being here whilst continually getting shafted by this 'legacy' airline while we accept sh#tty COS.

My two cents :ok:

[slapfaan]

Glad you posted this, Bwatchful..
As for AAIGUY...only one way to describe YOU mate = "pathetic little man"...
..and as for "the management" posting here, I happen to know this individual,rest assured that he is everything BUT management!!
He just gets a kick outta posting forums here..sit's back,and watch you ladies squeel...enjoy the show mate...you'll be signing a different tune by the end of the year...
:D

[AAIGUY]

So now we're name calling?

I wish the AOA the best in getting more, I am not against you at all.

Simply put, I believe (and I am sure CX does) that at the end of the day very few will walk. History has proven that.

So like it or not, like me or not, its the sad truth. Previous strike threats were prior to 49'ers. Since that point the pilots have been powerless.

[Numero Crunchero]

I can't reveal the details of the deal but the letter making the rounds isn't too far off. You can tell it didn't come from me as there are too many numerical inaccuracies;-)

What I can tell you.

AOA 443 Captains 218A scale, 225 B scale
522 First Officers of which 143 are based
144 Second Officers

CX
744 (approx)Captains(I didn't make that number up - just a coincidence)
1050(approx) First Officers
310 (approx) Second Officers
I say approx as the figures change weekly due upgrades, recruitment and retirements(watch this space!)

No one is ever forced to sign anything. But sometimes the choices are stark, as they were in 1999 for A scalers. You will have a choice to sign or not.

Will reveal more when info is in the public domain.

[Stratojet]

Question...is the GC part of our solution, or part of our problem? Difficult to recruit members when the leadership appears to be very much part of the problem.

[badairsucker]

As for AAIGUY...one word to describe YOU mate = "pathetic little man"...


Now I have checked with my calculator and double checked with my fingers and I make that 3 words.


Anyone got anything different...................:ok:

[goin-home]

What is apparant is that this train set is coming off the rails.

All I can say is well done Mr Rhodes. You now lead the most dysfunctional group of individuals on the planet.

Paradox: see Rhodes and morale.

Idiot. Absolute idiot.

[Numero Crunchero]

For the sake of argument, lets assume the letter above is accurate.

Lets work out time to command for a SO who joins today.

Assumptions.
100% retention of 55+ old captains - realistic? Well, it is A scales for all but a handful of older B scale guys. So I think it might be reasonable in the short run. If you were on a base getting A scale you might stay on a few years more.
100% pass rate for upgrades.
Growth rate of last 5 years(1/1/02-31/12/06) of 6.4%(based on a/c numbers at year end) continues after 2009. We are due to receive 10 a/c in 2007, 11 in 2008 and 11 from 2009 onwards. I have assumed we receive all 11 in 2009. I have assumed return of 3 A346's next year.

Retirement Age 55, time to command for new joiner is 10 1/2 years.
Retirement Age 65 introduced just after he joins, time to command is now 13 1/2 years.

Change one assumption.
If the growth rate matches the period 1993-2000 ( 7 years including the asian contagion), from 2010 onwards;
time to command with retirement age 55 is 15 1/2 years. If using Retirement Age 65(100% retention) the time slips out to 20 1/2 years

Change another assumption - 50% retention - that could be 100% retention to 60 then everyone leaves or an average of 50% of CNs remaining until 65.

6.4% growth rate(2010 onwards), Using RA65 it becomes 12 1/2 years.
Using the 1993-2000 growth rate(2010onwards) it will take 15 1/2 years.

Summary
RA55
6.4% rate - 10 1/2, 2.7% - 15 1/2
RA65
6.4% rate - 13 1/2, 2.7% - 20 1/2

RA65(50% leave at 55)
6.4% rate - 13, 2.7% - 17 1/2years.

So the number that remain has a big effect on the delay - the delay could be as little as 2 1/2years or as much as 5 years.

The 1993-2000 figures are low due to Kai Tak constraints and Asian Contagion. The 18 year average growth rate has been around 6.4% the growth rate for 2007-2009 is very high at 8.7%. If that rate continues a new joiner would get his command in 9 1/2 years RA55, or 12 years with RA65.

In terms of aircraft numbers: end of 2009 131 a/c(according to 2006 annual report).
Low growth - 2.7% from 2010 onwards - 2017 162 aircraft,
Long term rate -6.35% from 2010 - 2017 214 aircraft
Recent rate(07-09) 8.7% from 2010 - 2017 255 aircraft.

To not have any delay to command growth rate has to be in excess of 10% from 2010 onwards - aircraft in 2017 - 281.

Clear as mud?

[Numero Crunchero]

In 1998, CX made an operating profit of $397m on turnover of $26,695 - anemic at best. There was a drive to reduce costs by 20% in all departments. There is nothing that motivates so well in cost cutting than the fear of their company going under.

In order to achieve the 1998 'loss', CX had to write down the value of the 747 classics(and spare parts for them). This writedown was for a total of $837m. Lets be clear, no cash actually left the company for that write down. There were two other actual cashflow exceptional items but the net effect of them was only -$32m.

Now, it is wise accounting practice to 'mark to market' so it would seem that this was a sensible business decision. But the subsequent lease rate that was achieved (from PIA I think) was in excess of 25%. That suggests the lease rate was exorbitantly high or the marked down value grossly underestimated the true value of the aircraft.

Never the less, we got our headline loss!

Its like the old accountant joke....accountant walks in to see a business man. The business man says, "hows my business doing? Is it profitable or making a loss". The accountant replies "how do you want your business to be doing?"

[rick.shaw]

Yes. creative accounting is a great thing. Cx, like any business, are experts at that. As has been said, the shareholders come way before the employees.

It is always worth revisiting history every now and again - no matter how much we think we may be familiar with it. BB's post has refreshed my memories somewhat - a few important things I had forgotten over the years.

And that is what CX relies on. People forgetting the past and all the past evils that have been committed. The severity of bad events reduces as time goes by. We all remember the holocaust, but few really feel the pain now. Rather than stir up things, he has in fact just jogged our memories.

Yes - in hindsight, the pilot's should have done things differently. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?

What doesn't change, however, is the way CX management treats it's employees (not just the pilots). The fact is that this company rules by intimidation, fear and in a downright iron fist type fashion. It feels responsible to the shareholders and management only. There is no need to feel any responsibility(social or otherwise) to it's employees. The fact it has won several 'socially responsible' related awards only testifies to it's corporate power and pull over the media and government - nothing else.

CX had a go at breaking the union 6 or so years ago. Just like Lorenzo and Hawke, they see any organised employee action as a threat. Never forget the good that unions (HKAOA in particular) have done over the years. It is getting harder and harder just to maintain current levels of (inflation adjusted) remuneration, let alone get any improvements. Additionally, unions have done a fantastic job in keeping the airlines somewhat 'honest'. e.g. if Cx had it's way, all our ground courses would be completed on our G days or even leave.

Cx now have no need to break the union. The AOA has a 52% level of pilot membership. Just enough to ensure that whatever is voted in becomes binding on ALL pilots. Arguably, they seem to have a very cosy relationship with the AOA. If something is not voted in, they simply wait until the AOA has a revote. What will happen this time??

As for the deal on offer, I am somewhat bemused by all the speculation and rumour. Maybe I am looking at things too simply, but I cannot see how CX benefits from having A scalers extend until 65. They are the most expensive pilots in the company. Right now, all extendees are on B scales (read cheap). Additionally, CX can pick and choose who they extend. All those who are not seen as acting in the company's interests are simply not asked. Bypass pay is a minor outlay. Basically, the only ones to benefit from the rumoured deal are the A scalers themselves(some 200-300 max). Everyone else gets screwed.

This RA65 thing is an interesting issue. Everyone assumes that the government will heavily legislate for age discrimination. If one thinks about it, wouldn't this be considered anti-business? i.e. not being able to force someone to retire? If it's anti-business.......... I can't comment on other country's legislation though.

On another note, isn't it funny that the company insisted on negotiating some things separately(housing, rostering practices) before remuneration was even looked at. And then all of a sudden they insist that remuneration, retirement age and other COS items are all thrown in together? Or was that the AOA?

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Only 2 FOs and 1 SO nominated for the GC out of 19. No local names, no females either......now who can we blame for that?

[canonball1]

Wake Up! Especially Jumpseat. We are all just cogs in a big capital wheel. Cx can and will do what they want. We pilots are expendable labour and that is all it should be. If they really need us they will pay for it otherwise we all have a choice to leave. If you hate the job and stay you are just a loser wasting a precious life probably only 'after the money'.

The last thing the world needs is a bunch of socialists running free enterprise.