End Of Cabin Crew Seniority In Qf Long Haul?

[Eden99]

The following newsletter on the FAAA website. Clearly Qantas want to get rid of the bid system. What do people think??
August 2007
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
JEPPESEN ROSTER SYSTEMS
We have been briefed by Cabin Crew Management and a project manager from Jeppesen about new software they are developing and evaluating for the construction of flight attendants rosters.
As you would no doubt be aware the current software that Qantas is using to produce Cabin Crew rosters is over 20 years old. It has significant limitations and often results in very poor quality rosters for even the most senior of crew. The development of the new software heralds the next generation of potential rostering systems and capabilities.
It is important to once again state the FAAA’s position; which we believe is also the position of our members. We have consistently stated that we believe that “choice” is paramount. We also have stated that a flight attendants length of service should also be taken into consideration in the construction of rosters. Our position on this has not changed.
We have also indicated to Qantas that any change at all away from the current “strict” seniority system is a matter for flight attendants to vote on and will not be departed from without considerable consultation and education of members.
I will list the sort of challenges that the Company needs to address with it employees in order to get them to agree to change the current system of work allocation. This list is not exhaustive but will give you some idea of the complexity of the system.
• Issues relating to partners needing to bid opposite each other for child care
• Issues of partners or friends wishing to fly together
• Issues of Commuters and the length and type of trips
• Issues related to part- time
• Issues related to Fatigue management
• Issues related to the ability to guarantee days off without using annual leave
• Issues related to general fairness and equity in a stagnant recruitment environment
These are just some of the challenges that our members face in trying to reconcile their home and work lives.
The Jeppesen software is capable of “replicating” the current system of work allocation in its entirety. However it is also capable of allowing crew to vary that system by agreement and vote. The extent of that variance is a matter for flight attendants. It could mean as little as caps on some trips or the ability to have greater levels of roster satisfaction with a seniority system still intact, but also taking into account some of the things I have dot pointed above.
I am writing this newsletter to you because the company will be discussing the Jeppessen software and capability at its upcoming Strategy Meetings.
It is important that you have a say and listen to the presentation. If you do choose to attend we suggest that you go ask as many questions as you need to, in order to understand the project and its capabilities.
At the end of the day, it’s a matter for flight attendants to determine via a vote. We have been and still are of the view that a flight attendants length of service should be important in the construction of rosters and the ability of all crew to exercise some level of choice and be satisfied to the highest extent possible.
The FAAA have only had an overview briefing ourselves and are not expert by any stretch of the imagination. Your questions should be directed to the managers holding the meetings rather than your own CCTM’s or CCM’s or the FAAA at this stage.
In order to ensure that consistent and accurate information is provided only the managers conducting the briefing should be discussing the software and its capabilities. The FAAA will comment further when the Company meetings have been completed.
We will update you when we have more information
Written by Steven Reed – President International Division
Authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division

[Eden99]

The End Of Seniority Bidding In Long Haul??? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following newsletter on the FAAA website. Clearly Qantas want to get rid of the bid system. What do people think??August 2007
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
JEPPESEN ROSTER SYSTEMS
We have been briefed by Cabin Crew Management and a project manager from Jeppesen about new software they are developing and evaluating for the construction of flight attendants rosters.
As you would no doubt be aware the current software that Qantas is using to produce Cabin Crew rosters is over 20 years old. It has significant limitations and often results in very poor quality rosters for even the most senior of crew. The development of the new software heralds the next generation of potential rostering systems and capabilities.
It is important to once again state the FAAA’s position; which we believe is also the position of our members. We have consistently stated that we believe that “choice” is paramount. We also have stated that a flight attendants length of service should also be taken into consideration in the construction of rosters. Our position on this has not changed.
We have also indicated to Qantas that any change at all away from the current “strict” seniority system is a matter for flight attendants to vote on and will not be departed from without considerable consultation and education of members.
I will list the sort of challenges that the Company needs to address with it employees in order to get them to agree to change the current system of work allocation. This list is not exhaustive but will give you some idea of the complexity of the system.
• Issues relating to partners needing to bid opposite each other for child care
• Issues of partners or friends wishing to fly together
• Issues of Commuters and the length and type of trips
• Issues related to part- time
• Issues related to Fatigue management
• Issues related to the ability to guarantee days off without using annual leave
• Issues related to general fairness and equity in a stagnant recruitment environment
These are just some of the challenges that our members face in trying to reconcile their home and work lives.
The Jeppesen software is capable of “replicating” the current system of work allocation in its entirety. However it is also capable of allowing crew to vary that system by agreement and vote. The extent of that variance is a matter for flight attendants. It could mean as little as caps on some trips or the ability to have greater levels of roster satisfaction with a seniority system still intact, but also taking into account some of the things I have dot pointed above.
I am writing this newsletter to you because the company will be discussing the Jeppessen software and capability at its upcoming Strategy Meetings.
It is important that you have a say and listen to the presentation. If you do choose to attend we suggest that you go ask as many questions as you need to, in order to understand the project and its capabilities.
At the end of the day, it’s a matter for flight attendants to determine via a vote. We have been and still are of the view that a flight attendants length of service should be important in the construction of rosters and the ability of all crew to exercise some level of choice and be satisfied to the highest extent possible.
The FAAA have only had an overview briefing ourselves and are not expert by any stretch of the imagination. Your questions should be directed to the managers holding the meetings rather than your own CCTM’s or CCM’s or the FAAA at this stage.
In order to ensure that consistent and accurate information is provided only the managers conducting the briefing should be discussing the software and its capabilities. The FAAA will comment further when the Company meetings have been completed.
We will update you when we have more information
Written by Steven Reed – President International Division
Authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division

[mrpaxing]

i get less then half what i bid for however:yuk: some choice is better then none.:=
this thread should be combined with qf eba :ok:

[twiggs]

I don't think management want to get rid of seniority bidding entirely.
Why would they invest in a new system that is capable of managing seniority bidding far more efficiently, if they don't want it at all?
I think they just want a system that can be as fair as possible to as many people as possible, while still retaining seniority bidding as the core.

I think it is only the most junior crew that get back to back JoBergs that want to get rid of seniority bidding totally.

Sounds like a win all round really if we can get this ancient system updated and still keep seniority.

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote- "Sounds like a win all round really if we can get this ancient system updated and still keep seniority."

The devil is always in the detail but [strangely] I find myself agreeing with you.:ooh:

[Ozdork]

I may have missed something, but could someone please remind of the significance of this thread to the Professional Pilots, as in what PPRune was established for? I can generally avoid your topics by just not reading them, however, with a thread title as above one assumes it is about pilots. Would it be possible to get a specific FA section where you can have your whinges to your hearts content (same goes for the ginger beers, but at least their thread has a little interest to us piloting types)
Standing by for incoming stilettos and spanners.......

[speedbirdhouse]

Eden99,
perhaps you ought to alter the title of this thread in order to not offend the precious.

[QF A330]

My better half who is an ex TAA Hostess and now a S/H CSM (29 years) and who agrees that seniority is the best way to handle rostering, as we have all had to handle being junior in our jobs.

In my career, for a long time I was known as JB (junior boy) and now after 28 years have some authority in my career which is non aviation related.

Get over your junior status as you will have seniority one day.

To those ex cabin crew who have retired or taken VR and as you have had a career which will never be repeated due to new planes and rostering, please keep posting, as an experienced flight attendant's views and opinions will help forge the future ahead and let all know what you have achieved.

During a trip to PEK last year we were seated way down the back and as being sub load we found that the crew after a almost 12 hour flight were still friendly, courteous and awake which in my past career I couldn't do, and the Captain who was on a walk to the back of the plane recongnised my partner and stopped for a chat.

I had 28 years with an emergency service and think I have experienced many career ups and downs.

Remember to keep united to maintain your hard fought awards and as my union always said, you inherited these hard won conditions and you must pass them on to the next generation in a better state than when you got them.

Qantas is a big family so please keep looking after and your hard won conditions and especially look after each other.

Prior to meeting my lady I was and are still are an aviation fan and still sit at the viewing area at Tullamarine and watch the traffic, life doesn't get any better.

To finish up, PPRUNE is a great site and I log in a few times every day to keep up to date.

[speedbirdhouse]

Nice post and wise words, QF A330. Thank you.

Never truer words spoken-

"Remember to keep united to maintain your hard fought awards and as my union always said, you inherited these hard won conditions and you must pass them on to the next generation in a better state than when you got them."

[back2front]

Is it just me or do other ppruners find the term 'ginger beers' extremely offensive?

[parabellum]

No, it's just you................

[mppgf]

No, just you :rolleyes:

[ScottyDoo]

could someone please remind of the significance of this thread to the Professional Pilots, as in what PPRune was established for? .................Would it be possible to get a specific FA section where you can have your whinges to your hearts content....................Standing by for incoming stilettos and spanners.......

And the manbags...

Ozdork, this lot were kicked out of the specific cabin crew forum for unseemly, obnoxious behaviour.

Unfortunately, it seems that out of all the cabin crew in the world, a certain element of the aussie scene were deemed the most offensive, all-round, and by default have been foisted upon us in D&G. Not sure what we did to deserve it.



Ref the topic, the straight seniority system is seen as encouraging career hostiehood. A rotating system, if that's what they have in mind, will reward the juniors once or twice a year with a top month bid, thereby discouraging, to some degree, the boilers from hanging around, which seems to be a big part of the plan.

Hope they at least bought you flowers before they ****** ***.

[RedTBar]

What type of system do QF mainline pilots use?

Is this not a straight seniority system?

Not a rotating one?

To any moderators reading this thread,if you want to see an obnoxious post then you would not have to go past Scottydoo!!!

He would like nothing more than to incite an argument and have the moderators close this thread or ban cabin Crew.

[And5678]

I can generally avoid your topics by just not reading them, however, with a thread title as above one assumes it is about pilots.

Ummm, I thought a thread title with the words 'Cabin Crew' in it would have been a dead give away to its content....

:confused:

[stubby jumbo]

Agree 5678,

But with a second name-..........DORK.

What do you expect???:rolleyes:

On the "other" subject .........Scooby Doo. Best not to respond.

I'm off now to Oxford St, I hear there is a sale on Man Bags and High Heels at the Pink Boutique.

[ScottyDoo]

Ummm, I thought a thread title with the words 'Cabin Crew' in it would have been a dead give away to its content....

:confused:

perhaps you ought to alter the title of this thread...

Do try to keep up, girls... :p

[mach2male]

Anything that is offered to Crew as being wonderful should be viewed as a Trojan horse.
This management has a habit of offering a lot and delivering zilch.
Dont be blind sided.This upcoming EBA is a watershed and therefore crucial to all our futures.
Always look at the broader implications and dont make decisions based on self interest.
I speak from experience.
A previous employer appealed to my greed and I succumbed. I paid the price to the extent that I had to leave.
I will never be that stupid again.

[Managers Perspective]

End Of Senior Cabin Crew In Qf Long Haul.

Now I am sure many travellers would vote for that!!!

MP.

[DEFCON4]

Fifteen Crew...all flying two years....little experience...young.
A brawl breaks out onboard...you are sitting 1A...are you going to sort it out as you see it escalate?
The only time you would get involved is when your Dom gets spilt by someone involved in the fracas.
Seniority is a recognition of accumulated experience and an ability to identify problems BEFORE they become problems.
If you have never seen a scorpion before how do identify it as being dangerous?
You Can't.
Someone who has experience might be able to assist.
You cant squeeze 50 years of experience into a 25 year old head.
Seniorty recognizes that.
Management despise seniority because those with experience tend to be less gullible and naive.
There are very few in the management of any large company who are honest with their employees and treat them with respect.
As in any society the older more senior tend to look after the younger more junior members....until they are experienced enough to look after themselves.
Order is required in any group/society
That order usually is determined by age and experience.
Would you let an 18 year old run your company?.
More importantly would you like an 18 year old telling you what to do?
The family unit is based on seniority.
Except,as in MPs case ..dad is senile and his 2 year old runs the show

[lowerlobe]

Managers Perspective..

As usual you have it around the wrong way but I can tell you what the passengers WOULD definitely vote for.

That would be to get rid of management and board members who line their pockets while reducing the service and value the customer (Yes they are customers) get for their money.

As I said the other day,you are symptomatic of the management that pervades Australia.Within the next 20 years Australia will be lucky to have any manufacturing or production capability with the current leadership we are stuck with.

Denial is the fundamental principle of your doctrine.

[White Pointer]

When I first started the back to back Jobergs were all crewed by people with less than 2 years experience in the company due to seniority. It was very rare to see someone with more than about 5 years seniority on one of those trips.

Aeroplanes didn't fall out of the sky because of crew inexperience. And the crew inexperience you would have to say was a direct result of seniority.

DEFCON4;

Seniority is a recognition of accumulated experience and an ability to identify problems BEFORE they become problems.


So are you saying those destinations that are crewed back to back by the most junior of people because of seniority are a less safe than those destinations crewed by senior ones? Perhaps we should get some more senior ones to those destinations so they can be deemed safe again.

[DEFCON4]

It was not my attention to malign any crew member regardless of seniority.
I am sorry that you have chosen to perceive it in this manner.
You have taken four lines out of a twenty line post.
Do you have issue with the rest of it?
These misunderstandings and misconceptions will eventually be our undoing.
I was junior once and did plenty of JoBurgs...and still do them as I find the crews both happy and motivated.
I dont know how long you have been flying but it would have been a very rare event to have all crew...including both the CSM and CSS...flying less than two years.
In the military, no one goes into the field, without someone who has experience.... leading.
Planes fall out of the sky due to technical malfunctions or human error.
To even suggest that they do so due to junior crew you do yourself a great disservice.......not to mention an absolute distortion of my post.
Now ....how long do you intend to stay flying?
The decision you make regarding the seniority based work environment will not only have an affect on your future but also that of others.
Think carefully before you let emotion get in the way of an objective outcome

[And5678]

The decision you make regarding the seniority based work environment will not only have an affect on your future but also that of others.

I agree in principle with DEFCON4's words but also want add another perspective to the argument. Both 'senior' and 'junior' crew need to strongly think about what they are willing to, or not to, change with the seniority based bidding system.

I am using absolutes in this description, but if 'junior' crew want to do away with the current system in its entirety, then DEFCON4 is right. What will be the effect on our future work environments?

'Junior' crews' frustrations stem from the stagnant recruitment environment, coupled with overseas basings and different airline groups negotiating for our traditional flying. These factors compromise their access to improved bidding outcomes.

For 'senior' crew not to recognise this and accept no changes, would only maintain the status quo in the short term, but ultimately weaken their chances of maintaining it in the long term as disatisfaction brewed.

We need to be respective of each set of wishes and concerns and work towards a conciliatory result. Hopefully this will allow us to control the agenda a little instead of being dictated to by QF.

[White Pointer]

For the record I have left QF long haul after 7 years of being stuck at the bottom of the pile. No chance to have a life, and in my perspective, there was no real chance of it ever improving.

My point is that if the senior people want to get the support of junior ones in maintaining the current system, they need to recognise that life is tough at the bottom. The old argument of 'you will be senior one day' has well and truly gone past its use by date with many. The other argument that little Johhny will be gone at the end of the year is also a frugile attempt at convincing people. So he gets voted out. How long do you think it will take things to improve? Rudd gets in and things will be different overnight? I think it will take years to change, even when they do get in to government.

When the London base opened, I like everyone hated it. However, at one point I did consider going up there for a change (about a year after it started), but was berated and called a scab by some crew for thinking of it. My point was that it is there now, and it is better to have Aussies crewing the flying rather than foreign nationals. The only positive about going up there would have been the better rostering (not being stuck with the leftovers like here) and a change in scenery. It still does not diminish the fact that the whole situation stinks, but by some going up there, perhaps less annual and long service may have been assigned because there would have been less long haul crew to share the given amount of flying available back here (ie less of a surpluss).

For the record, I ended up not going, but just because I considered the possibility I was given grief by some short sighted people. If no Australian crew went there, would it have been the end of the base? In my opinion No. Not at that stage after it had been going for a year or so.

The same goes for the NY issue. I did not like the fact that things changed like many, but given the choice of the shuttle being crewed by us or Kiwis I expressed my view that it should be crewed by us. Again the cause of ridicule from some. Just my point. It is not by any way saying I supported the whole concept of what was happening. You sometimes have to make choices you may not like simply because you may not like the alternative even more.

Now I work for a corporate jet charter company, still get to fly a couple of times a month, and do other roles. The pay is also similar and overall I am much happier. This allows me more time at home, flexibility in my life to spend time with my husband and to have children. You want everyone to fight for seniority to protect the mothers who need to be home for child care, but in doing so you are asking others to give up the possibility of being able to do the same themselves.

My whole point in wasting time posting on here now? I wish some of you people would realise that there is a growing silent minority who may just become a majority against the seniority system as it stands. If you wish to keep it, you will at least have to offer something to people who are disadvantaged by the system. Be it buckets that limit trips like the tech crew have, or perhaps sharing leave allocation so that once every few years you get a chance to have Christmas off. A small move in that direction will at least offer something for all. The senior can keep the bulk of their advantage, while the junior get something in return.

How many crew have joined the long haul seniority list in the last 5 years? And how many have started flying for QF (ie. bases, casuals, short haul)? What do you think the prospects in the view of junior crew really are? For years everyone has been told not to worry, you will be senior one day, but for most you can only go on what you see and the track record (ie reality) is not great.

If you want to remain united, it is time to show some sympathy towards those who suffer, not constantly berate them as whingers etc. The constant bickering and name calling does nothing but alienate people more. There are always going to be people with a different point of view, and just because you don't agree with them does not make either of you correct.

Otherwise, more junior crew will continue to leave (like myself) further diluting the remaining long haul seniority and numbers. Sad this is happening, but I feel it will only get worse if things don't change.

Anyhow, good luck to you with all of it, just try and fight it united with everyones support rather than fighting each other which to some extent seems to be happening now. Life has changed for me now, so whichever way it goes is not my problem. Perhaps that is why I can stick my head out of the sand and say what many are thinking but are too scared to say in public. Until people come to the realisation that people think like this, the chances of a united fight diminish.

[surfside6]

Everyone complains about seniority but no one offers a viable alternative.
I have been flying 25 years and have been a CSS for 20 of those years.I have
had little or no control over my life for most of that time.I knew what I was getting into when I obtained promotion.
My wife flies and we have kids.Its been a juggling act but we have managed.The time we have with our kids is far greater than those who work 9 to 5.The destinations are immaterial.Let me tell you JoBurgs are good trips monetarily.
In the airline industry individuals are preoccupied with seniority.I got over it years ago and am happier because of it.
I go to work to earn the bucks and pay the bills.Everything else is secondary.
In any game ,find out what the rules are and make them work for you.
If you cant, like White Pointer,you have a choice

[mrpaxing]

but there were other measures qf management could have done so far to improve the system. instant online trip swap comes to mind. this would give junior and senior f/a's the chance to adjust their lives if rosters dont work out. and i dont mean just in one base. it should be done network wide. i believe this would also lift productivity.
this has been mentioned to management on many occassions from various groups. but as usual no one is game enough to make a decision to implement it. needs several committies to assess, reassess, write several business plans, reassess,put up for a vote, run several trials, reassess and depending on the inhouse politicial wind (reassess again) you may get it by late 2030.:rolleyes:
i am not in a disimilar position then S6, just less senority. i have been going backwards for years now. can i see any improvments if the bidding system goes? i am yet to be convinced.

[lowerlobe]

With every story there are two sides.

White pointer tells us to compromise and think of the junior crew and that career progression is a dead duck.

Yet the company are about to get a huge number of aircraft which will require a corresponding increase in crew.

What will happen with the current junior crew in regards to the newly hired crew.Will they then say OK lets forget about seniority and be fair to the 'new junior' crew.....I doubt it.

White Pointer...During the debate about the New York slip the company replaced a number of Australian crew before the vote was taken.

This was obviously a scare tactic and was typical of how the company regards cabin crew.

White Pointer..You made the point that a NO vote would have us lose jobs to the Kiwis and only a YES vote would stop it.

Well,what happened..the slip did not get back in and the kiwi's still did the job.

Australian Cabin Crew did not even get a thanks for trying to improve flexibility.

So what did voting YES get you?....Nothing..Squat..Zilch...

The company during SARS asked us to accept a reduction in crew to help out.

Did the company ever give the crew member back...NO

This seniority issue comes up again simply because the company wants crew to accept the new bid system.The same usual people who suggest we give in are back in town waving the seniority flag yet again.

As far as the LHR base is concerned most of us agree that the basic tenet was to lower or reduce the conditions of Australian based crew.

You only have to look at what LHR trips Australian crews get and the reduced slip and what trips and slips the LHR based crew get.

As far as Australian crew going up there it is a little like collaborating with the enemy.You are helping them out in reducing the conditions of Australian crew.

You can stick your head in the sand and say but I am only one person but in the end everyone who goes up there helps the company out.

The company has never been interested in helping crew out by improving the bid system.The reserve system and demand days are a joke.

You have to understand that any new system will be like a new company super scheme.It will never be as good for the employees as the previous plan because if it was the company would not have wanted it.

Look at all ways to become more cost effective but be wary of any new bid or work system.

Even the surrender monkeys who voted YES to get rid of the 75% system we used to have before bidding were astounded at the difference between what the company told them and what the company did after the new system was introduced.

[White Pointer]

Lowerlobe, are you saying if we voted no to the NY shuttle we would be back slipping there and better off? And if no Australian ventured up to London the base would be dead and buried?

[lowerlobe]

White pointer..It was you who said we have to vote YES because it would protect our jobs...here is your quote

Lowerlobe: if we vote NO then how do we go about getting our NY slips back,

Well,the vote was YES and did the slip come back?....NO

Did the company stop using AKL crews ..NO,they have used them on and off and the vote achieved nothing ......for crew that is.

I never said that not going to LHR would close the base....

My idea of not going to LHR is called having principles.

To show how the company acts and thinks of Australian crew look at 'THE LHR trip that we have and what trips and slips the LHR base have.

I find it interesting that you only show up when something big is on the horizon and the company has a lot at stake.

[surfside6]

When I started flying being a "steward"meant being part of a boys club that was run by a bunch of old bull elephants born in the 40s.
I hated my first few years of flying.
Seniority determined the meal choice you had,your time off,your work position and your position in the Q when checking into a hotel.
If the Chief or FSD said drinks were in his room your had to turn up.If you didnt they would ring your room.If you werent there you were questioned the next day.Most of these people were borderline alcoholics.
The system thankfully has broken down over the years.
The bid system has never been fixed because the company didnt want it fixed.
The software was flawed when it was introduced in 88.It delivers poor quality rosters for everybody.It produces too many cost inefficient low lines.
Everybody is unhappy with it.So the promise of something new gets everyone excited.
We were promised a lot when the bid system was introduced but very little if any of it was implemented.
We gave up 25% of our standown for this.A minority of crew agreed to its introduction and the rest were forced to accept it.
Previously crew had a choice to be on the "married roster" or "short division" to acommodate family life.All that disappeared.
Just be very careful about what you intend to give up.
I have just over a year of accumulated sick leave.If I get done over by a"new" system I will burn every day of it to maintain a balance between my home life and worklife.
Management always has a two tiered agenda.
Just ask the domestics about their last EBA.
KY was promised but never supplied .
They were told it wouldnt hurt...guess what?..it bloody well did!!
Get your hands on the KY before you accept anything from these swine.
Qantas=Animal Farm

[mrpaxing]

the original bid system in 88 was working well. too well for the company. so they start fiddeling with the system. years later and some 35+ adjustments the bid system is truly stuffed. the jeppeson bid system is actually a senority based bidding system where you can put as many conditions in as you like. so whatever the outcome of the next eba it can all be accomandated. it also has a transperency to it which of course one can assume will be hidden from cabin crew. remember, when we had open time bids displayed and one could see who else bidded for the trip. didn't last long,did it? lets see what the offer is but as mentioned here it is never going to be better.
S6 you are kind to call most of the old guys alcoholics (not nice). the curretn system does not deliver poor quality rosters for everyone. the top 30% seem to be very happy. unfortunatly that does not apply to me.:sad:

[White Pointer]

Lowerlobe,

You can go back years and get quotes and twist them whichever way you wish. And no stage did I advocate that by accepting Yes to the NY vote we would be getting our slips back. It would just keep us at least flying there. At the time you were advocating that we had to vote NO to get the NY slip back. Can you explain how this would have worked? The quote you posted was me asking you how by voting NO you were so sure we would be again slipping in NY.

And just for the record, I have only visited this a few times. Seems the odd occassion I look the likes of yourself have given QF crew a great reputation by getting them banned and it takes a lot of us ages to find where things have moved since then.

Anyhow, enough wasting my time with this. Got a life to get to. Will see you back in another year or two maybe.

[DEFCON4]

Bid Runs this year have generated enormous numbers of demand days.
Last BP252 the number one CSS the number one CSM and the number one BFA received corrupted rosters.
Piss eveybody off so that they will embrace the "new" system.
Psst..Lesley can I have my KY now?
BTW...shouldnt that be WhitePointer(S)...plural?

[lowerlobe]

As Mrpaxing and surfside mentioned the current system is far from perfect and it never hurts to look at new systems.

However,as I said with company super schemes the new plan or bid system will rarely be better than the current one.Otherwise the company would have no interest in it.

You can try to have safeguards in place and I guess their success depends on the industrial situation and that depends on who is in Government.

As I said I know of 2 girls who voted for the bid system in 88 and just after that when we were turned around on a trip they said in disbelief "But the company said they would never do this"...

If there is a moral to be learned from that is that the company has no morals.

[Bazzamundi]

Since this is a pilot network, why don't you people take your arguments over here:


http://www.cabincrew.com/ccnetwork/


There is a specific section for Australian and New Zealand cabin crew.

Interesting to read on this forum that shorthaul claim to be getting their hands on the A380.

Even better, any reason your union won't set up a specific bulletin board for company specific issues like Qrewroom is for the pilots? At least some things can be discussed that do not (and should not) end up in the public domain. It can only be read and contributed to by those who are authorised to do so by the administrators (ie. company employees).

[cart_elevator]

bazzamundi
Ground Engineers are free to post on here ... we are flight crew so we should be able to as well.
Someone said juniors whinge but make no suggestions to the seniority system, well here are some:-
> Open time to be awarded in reverse seniority;
> Dump system like short haul
> Holidays on rotation
> Seniority on rotation
> Bids for trip days away only, rather than destination (Lifestyle bidding ie ' want a certain type of trip' rather than 'this specific trip' )
> Days off bids only
> Equal Share system for destinations
All can be accomplished, with the new Jepp system, all are options available.... all are compromises, but the senior FAAA execs have already said they want to have the same system !!
And as others have said, the growing discontent is growing, growing and growing. the seniors will lose EVERYTHING if they wont compromise ... the juiniors have absoloutely nothing to lose, as we have nothing already.
Juniors will be happy to compromise, rather than take the seniority system down, but we will take it down if needed !

[DEFCON4]

We all get paid....thats why we have a fulltime job and go to work.
Any 9 to 5 person would consider this a lot of bleeting by precious QF flight attendants.
There are FAs who earn more than CSMs and they have flying less than 10 years.
The crew who have nothing are the AKL based crew.
These poor devils are treated like fodder...its an absolute disgrace.
An allocated roster is what the company is looking at.
No control over your life whatsoever.

[Shlonghaul]

Bazzamundi.....It's time you put yourself to good use and do some real work which suits your true job description :E

www.sta.nsw.gov.au/jobs/

[mrpaxing]

Shaul, well done:D:D:D
cart elevator, a little reminder management tried to change the senority system with the domestics and it failed big time.

[lowerlobe]

Bazzamundi...

There are a number of people or groups that post here that are not pilots.

We,like any other group here concerned and fervent about our careers and the possibility of careers in this industry for our children.

Therefore,sometimes the debate gets heated but not any more so than the engineers or pilots or anyone else.

We are not posting anything that is industrially sensitive.

If when reading pprune and you see a cabin crew thread there is no need for you to read it unless you are interested and no one is forcing you to.

[lowerlobe]

We have found out why Darth has been holding off on so many EBA's.Here is the new document that he and the gov have been working on.



Sick Days

We will no longer accept a doctor's statement as proof of sickness. If you are able to go to the doctor,
you are able to come to work.


Personal Days

Each employee will receive 104 personal days a year. They are called Saturday & Sunday.


Bereavement Leave

This is no excuse for missing work. There is nothing you can do for dead friends, relatives or co-workers. Every effort should be made to have non-employees attend to the arrangements. In rare cases where employee involvement is necessary, the funeral should be scheduled in the late afternoon. We will be glad to allow you to work through your lunch hour and subsequently leave one hour early.


Toilet Use

Entirely too much time is being spent in the toilet. There is now strict three-minute time limit in the stalls.
At the end of three minutes, an alarm will sound, the toilet paper roll will retract, the stall door will open and a picture will be taken. After your second offence, your picture will be posted on the company bulletin board under the "Chronic Offenders category". Anyone caught smiling in the picture will be sanctioned under the company's mental health policy.


Lunch Break

Skinny people get 30 minutes for lunch, as they need to eat more, so that they can look healthy. Normal size people get 15 minutes for lunch to get a balanced meal to maintain their average figure. Chubby people get 5 minutes for lunch, because that's all the time needed to drink a Slim-Fast.

Death Clause

Any worker found dead at their desk will be promptly fired. All deaths will need to be applied for in
advance and will only be approved if you can show that your death will not affect productivity.


Thank you for your loyalty to our company. We are here to provide a positive employment experience.
Therefore, all questions, comments, concerns, complaints, frustration's, irritations, aggravations, insinuations, allegations, accusations, contemplations, consternation and input should be directed
elsewhere.

[Willi B]

lowerlobe

With great respect, you're not totally on the money when you say: I can tell you what the passengers WOULD definitely vote for.
That would be to get rid of management and board members who line their pockets while reducing the service and value the customer (Yes they are customers) get for their money

This regular pax couldn't give a monkeys about your issues with management. My opinion is in part shaped by the criteria used by the Skytrax annual survey for cabin staff at http://www.worldairlineawards.com/Awards_2007/CabinStaff.htm

:: Assistance during boarding
:: Welcoming passengers
:: Applying safety procedures
:: Food & Beverage service efficiency
:: Answering call bell
:: Staff language skills
:: Problem solving ability
:: Discipline among staff
:: Enthusiasm of staff
:: Sincerity of Staff service
:: Friendliness of staff
:: Courtesy of Staff service
:: Consistency of Quality among staff
:: Total service efficiency
:: Total cabin presence
:: Staff grooming & Presentation

In the 2007 survey, QANTAS failed to make the top five in the cabin staff category. Are you seriously suggesting that 14,836,129 respondents of 93 different passenger nationalities have got it wrong?

[DEFCON4]

15000 out of 31,000,000

[radiation junkie]

Yes, they have got it wrong, it was not done on an even playing field.
It is a simple as that.

Getting back to the theme of this thread. The whole debate over the upcoming EBA and seniority can be summed up by the robot from "Lost In Space" , sorry, can't remember name, but sounds a lot like GD !

YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL..... YOU MUST BE DES TROYED....

[lowerlobe]

Willie B..

You must work for a survey company!

First you harp on about the choice magazine survey and now your quoting skytrax.

Is this the same skytrax that has come up with this survey result for jetstar.

World's Best Low Cost Airline
Best Low Cost Airline Australia/Pacific
Best Cabin Crew Australia/Pacific (low cost and full service)


I especially like the last one...Best Cabin Crew AUSTRALIA...FULL SERVICE....WTF

Remember Willie B as the saying goes there are 3 types of lies in this world..

Lies
Damn Lies
Statistics

[Willi B]

Ah, lowerlobe, me auld. Sorry to disappoint. I'm just a mere hewer of wood and drawer of water; a toiler in the vinyard; and mug flying punter who wants value for money, and not cabin crew with 'attitude', when he travels.

And a survey of some 15,000,000 respondents has statistical validity - even if you and your erstwhile cohorts on here don't like what it says.

[lowerlobe]

Ahh Willie B....You seem to have an axe to grind with QF cabin Crew.

However,there are some inconsistencies in your argument.

I took the time to look the skyrax ratings and for the cabin crew ratings there are just over 3,534,000 respondents not 15 million as you suggest.

Are you seriously suggesting that all 3,534,000 have flown on every airline including QF and can subjectively tell you that QF is better or worse than all the others.

What they can say is about their experience with a certain number of airlines not all of them.

I note that the top 3 or 4 are all Asian and anyone with any understanding of cultures will know that the Australian culture is not one of subservience.If you want the Asian experience then go right ahead and fly with one of them.

My point with voting out upper management is very valid becasue if it wasn't for their policies then their crews might not have the 'attitude' that you are not fond of.They could also spend money on things like IFE and food instead of increasing bonus' for themselves.

However to put these surveys that you are so fond of in perspective look at the Jetstar awards.

Since when was jetstar a full service airline?

So much for the accuracy of these surveys you love to mention.

[Willi B]

Lowerlobe me old cock sparra, you really are a a tad devious.

For the Skytrax cabin staff awards, read what the Skytrax CEO said:Returning to former winning ways, Malaysia Airlines has won the 2007 World's Best Cabin Staff title, in a very closely contested survey.

"For the last 4 weeks of this survey, we have seen the winning position move around between the final Top 3 airlines several times" commented Edward Plaisted (CEO of the survey organisation, Skytrax).

"In the end, Malaysia Airlines passenger support saw them through to the 2007 title, and we congratulate them for this worthy achievement. Last year's winner, Thai Airways took 3rd place, with Singapore Airlines moving up the rankings into a very close 2nd position, and Cathay Pacific also returning to the top 5 airlines (from 8th in 2006). Qatar Airways is the only non-Asian airline to feature in the top 5 ranking, and they are also named as Best Cabin Staff for the Middle East regional award" added Plaisted.

"Evidently the central role of cabin staff is to ensure the safety of passengers in their care, and this is a responsibility that achieves a good rating for a majority of the world's airlines. Our survey to identify the 'Best' cabin staff standards is based upon assessing a lot more - in effect, we are asking passengers to quantify the quality of their onboard experiences. In addition to the designated hard-service features (eg serving meals), we wanted customers to look at the soft service as well. This covers a wide range of factors - friendliness, enthusiasm and attentiveness of staff, through to the sincerity with which service is provided. Consistency is another critical area, and a key factor in determining future customer loyalty. We often tend to re-purchase a product or service that has served us well in the past, and an airline's cabin staff play a vital role in terms of how a customer may look back on a previous flight as a guide to their future loyalty" said Plaisted.


You don't like these comments, and want to play the race card: I note that the top 3 or 4 are all Asian and anyone with any understanding of cultures will know that the Australian culture is not one of subservience.If you want the Asian experience then go right ahead and fly with one of them.

With great respect old son, customer service has no correlation with ethnicity. May I humbly suggest that, while safety remains a priority, the travelling public looks for more than the QF Cabin Crew Soviet's "not in my duty statement" that you and your colleagues seem to espouse.

[mrpaxing]

willi b., but i say you do have a point.
lets go back and increase the cabin crew numbers as it should be, then get a management who appriciates and motivates crew. it does not go well within the ranks if you are called a bun tosser. then fix the ever ongoing
ife problems so crew can actually go and do what they are supposed to be doing and stop permanantly apologising. in my opinion,various crew bases around the world have not contributed to consistancy at all. if anything,the opposite is the fact.i food is another matter altogether, sorry, mr. platinum ff, you can't have the fish in first class , we haven't got any left. i do apologise on behalf of management. lets not get side tracked by all this little issues which may affect a customers perspective. i better stop now before it turns into a novel.
in a nutshell, we dont have the resources onboard in general as other competitors do. we do have a very mixed bag of cabin crew, i'll give you that:ok:

[RedTBar]

we do have a very mixed bag of cabin crew,

Does anyone know of an organisation with this number of people who are not different.

Australians are not robotic but I'm sure the company would like us to be.
mrpaxing raises a good point and that it is difficult to compete with other crews when there are up to 50% more of them.

If management treats any employee with the same attitude that ours does then those employees would not be giving their best as well.Some pax seem to only care about how they are treated but could not care less about why.
I agree with LL,the old sparrow seems to have a score to settle with QF CC and is happy to grab any survey which justifies his thoughts.

All you have to do is watch both political parties at the moment and watch them twist the same survey results to suit themselves.The survey that LL found is interesting in regards to Jokestar being a full service airline.

So much for that survey company and for little Willies argument.

[Willi B]

mrpaxing

You make an interesting and relevant point. The world’s most customer focused staff are significantly handicapped if the aircraft’s “fixtures and fittings” don’t complement the human factor.

In your forthcoming EBA negotiations, you and your union should consider putting this, and the crew numbers issue, on the table as part of a productivity based claim.

RedTBar

Although lacking in originality, you're nothing if not predictable. Don't let rational argument and debate get in the way of your loathing for management and propensity for personal abuse towards anybody who offers a contrary view. Let's get the violins out, so that you can try and evoke sympathy from us mug punters. If I'm board, I'll say, "Really, old fruit, your sob story has touched my heart: please accept this box of tissues as an expression of my deepest sympathy".

[RedTBar]

Willie

Your outburst shows that you have little to debate with.Show me where in my post I abused you?In fact all you can do is resort to sarcasm when you have run out of ideas and points to raise.

You can't even get your figures correct as LL as shown.The survey company which you talk about thinks that J* is a full service airline.

If you are in business then you should be able to analyze a problem and you can't seem to grasp that issue here.In fact you show an absolute lack of understanding of the situation when you suggest that we raise the issue of “fixtures and fittings” and crew numbers.

I can see the board saying "Well,OK we did not know that there are not enough crew compared to our nearest comptitors and that the IFE system is lousy".

If the employees are being treated with derision then how on earth do you expect them to exude...friendliness, enthusiasm and attentiveness of staff, through to the sincerity with which service is provided...

When this issue is raised all you can exude is sarcasm.

As LL has said you obviously have an issue with us so fly with someone else if you think they are so much better.That is the beauty of living in a democratic world.Perhaps you should go back to trying to impersonate a pirate..old cock sparra

[Willi B]

RedTBar

While you froth and foam about nothing in particular, you might consider the commercial environment that your employer finds itself in.

According to Derek Sadubin in today’s ‘Oz’, if you are booking travel overseas from Perth or Brisbane, there are seven chances out of 10 you’ll be flying with a foreign airline.

Comparable figures for Melbourne and Sydney are around six in ten.

It’s therefore hardly rocket science that QF will be looking for efficiency and productivity gains to try and improve market share.

At least your union appreciates this. In today’s Oz, Michael Majatov is quoted as saying that the union has no doubt that management will have a “massive” agenda, and is anticipating a tough bargaining environment.

Slagging off here anonymously, in some one else’s paid bandwidth, about John Howard, QF management and truculent passengers like me might make you feel good. Unfortunately, it doesn’t cut much ice at the bargaining table, or in the broader community. Like it or not, QF can (and does) have the best flight deck and engineering staff, yet be let down by the poor attitude of some of its cabin staff. And it’s the attitude that the punters remember, even though the rest of the package is first class.

[radiation junkie]

"let down by the poor attitude of some of its cabin staff" . What a crock of 5hit.


Let us get back to the topic at hand and not keep stroking the warped ego and misguided quotes of willie B.

[mrpaxing]

"Like it or not, QF can (and does) have the best flight deck and engineering staff, yet be let down by the poor attitude of some of its cabin staff. And it’s the attitude that the punters remember, even though the rest of the package is first class".
willi b. lets me widen the horizon on this issue and i will include ground staff in this. ground staff deal with customers, but cabin crews spend the most time with customers. eg.FF is not getting his prefered seat, his points are not available for ugrade (again), the flight has another delay, he/ she misses his/ her connecting flight, then you add onboard product failures and HERE STANDS YOUR FLIGHT ATTENDANT IN FRONT OF YOU. YOUR PERFECT TARGET (and there is little one can do up at 37000 feet to rectify many of those problems).pilots & engineers are not dealing with mishandled or any customers. month after month/year after year of negative experiences having to listen to too many bad news some cabin crew are disengaged at times(refer to inhouse survey). as i mentioned before, add cabin crew management which are mainly interested in their targets(so the bonus payment comes in), and you have a difficult situation at hand. to get staff more engaged managment has to "earn their respect" and provide motivation and satisfaction. do those issues have any room in the upcoming eba- i doubt it:ok:

[lowerlobe]

Willie B's real agenda has been revealed finally and that is mainly because I showed his figures for what they were....BS

He could not even get his numbers right for the cabin crew surveys.He was only out by around 12 million.

The survey said that J* was a full service airline as well so you have to wonder about their other surveys.

Willie B's agenda is the same as aircraft,managers perspective etc...etc... and that is to try and quell the anti management posts here.They want to tell us how hard the company is having it etc.....and Willie talks about the box of tissues.

Willie will you explain to us about the record profit...and the fact that a group wanted to borrow a huge amount of money and buy QF.

Oh yeah QF is doing it tough all right...me old cock sparrow...

[resboy]

where does it say in the survey that J* is a full service airline?

[DEFCON4]

In MEL Airport there is an adverstisement that has been placed by Deloitte.
Two things standout...a CEO should have "listening"as a skill and one of his/her responsibilites is "staff morale"
Dixon and his crew are deaf and dixon sees "staff morale"as a funny term.
In answer to Willi Bs comments....if you are not happy you dont smile.
This applies to most of QF cabin crew population.
Dixon has declared war on all of his employees....not just crew.
CC tend to be a target for all those individuals whose expectations are not being met.
Travel in real terms is cheaper than it has ever been.
Expectations have never been higher.
People like Wiili B tend not to understand what is really going on at Qantas.
Resources have been reduced ot critical levels...this includes the human resource.
There are less crew on a QF 744 than any other airline with the exception of Air NZ.
Il Duce has admitted in a Strategy Day that "we stuffed up" with the IFE.
QF has one of the oldest fleets in thw world.
The classics are well past their use by dates.
The 767s have been a fantastic workhorse but are now looking tired.
Very few individuals in the course of their employment need to continually apologize for problems and failures not of their making.
Quite frankly crew are an easy target..easy to attack and apart from forums like this are unable to defend themselves.
Crew are abused on a regular basis.After awhile it wears thin and the smile disappears.No one smiles when they are under attack in the trenches.
Employees are attacked by management and Customers alike.
Then there is the response.."if you dont like it leave"
Sorry, that is getting just a little tired.
The comraderie that exists among QF employees is unique.
The truth is that Dixon and Crew have no idea how to tap into to it so they ignore,threaten and intimidate.
CC do their job well and the company's own Performance Behaviour reviews indicate that.There are about 5% of CC who shouldnt be in the job.
Both Crew and management know who they are.
This leaves 95% of CC who meet and exceed company expectations.
It would appear that this does not correlate to customer expectations.
So who is to blame for this?
Are all 6000 QF CC lazy whinging malingerers?
Are customer expectations still stuck in the 70s?
Does the buck stop with Dixon?.
Willi B and others would have you believe it is the CC who are entirely at fault.
You would have to "live"on plane to make that assertion.
Complimentary letters always exceed complaints..the company data verifies this.
Then there are the bases.
The Kiwi base is worked into the ground.
The BKK crew are worked so hard some have passed out onboard.
Many Oz based crew are so concerned about job security they go to work sick.
The LHR base they are here for a good time not a long time.
Then there are the casuals who live in the hope of being offered full time work..it aint ever gonna happen...dixon will tell you that.
CC are human beings..many have children.
Most miss out on Christmas,wedding anniversaries.birthdays, all public holidays and childbirths.
The aviation industry is both dynamic and addictive.
There are challenges every day and night...never a dull moment.
The perception of CC is that it is just one movable party.
In the 60s 70 and 80s it was....not any more
The time spent at home is, as a minimum, 18 days in 56.Two more days in the same period as a 9 to 5 employee.
But then let's take into account RDOs and public holidays.These are not available to CC..
Slip time in foreign ports is now minimal.
4 Day LAX Patterns.
Leave SYD Friday morning...13 hour flight time
Arrive LAX 0630 Local time..awake all night
Go to bed..wake up, eat and then try to get some more sleep
Leave Saturday Night....14 hour flight time.
Arrive Sydney 0630 Monday morning.
Sleep,look after the kids,say hello to your partner and start getting ready to do it again.
For many crew this is their life.
Jetlag,fatigue,customer abuse and company intimidation.
What a glamorous life!
Now,what about pay?
The base pay for a 5 year FA is around $52,000 gross.
There are other components that bump this up.
Picture this ...the company forces you onto leave for 3 months on base pay.
You either go broke or get a second job.
For all the naysayers..how good is service on an American Carrier?
This where QF is heading....and at accelerating pace
Dixon pays lipservice to service
He has already reduced CC costs by 15%...a further 20% to go.
Folks if you complain about service now...just wait til Dixon achieves his cost cutting goal......there will be NONE!
In the ASX Qantas is listed under transport.
The blame is with Dixon...to him you are all cattle paying for a place on his transport...Self Loading Freight.
The days of service on Airliners is coming to an end.
As far as Dixon is concerned you have all been overserviced for too long.
You may not want to lower the standard.
Employees definitely dont....regardless of what you are told to the contrary!
Too bad... Dixon is doing it for you.
You have as much control over it as the employees...NONE!

[Shlonghaul]

Very good post Defcon :D :D Sad but so true...... And will once again fall on deaf ears. Our esteemed executives are only interested in looking after they're own bonuses. :(

[RedTBar]

Defcon4,
A long post but very well worth reading and it sums up the situation aptly.:ok:

[mrpaxing]

unfortunatly the way it is.:{

[flitegirl]

Thanks DC:D

Haven't read something so concise, well written and TRUE for a long time on here. Well said. Your words represent many of us i'm sure.

[twiggs]

In answer to Willi Bs comments....if you are not happy you dont smile.
This applies to most of QF cabin crew population.

I beg to differ on this point.
In any service industry, we are paid to smile, even if we are not happy.
Most QF cabin crew do this, even though we may feel we are not loved by management.
To say that most QF cabin crew don't smile if they are not happy implies most QF cabin crew are not suited to their jobs.
I believe most QF cabin crew forget about the politics when they are working and do the job as best as they can, sometimes with inferior resources.
It is unfortunate that some QF crew, fortunately a minority, do not make that small effort of smiling no matter what situation they are encountering onboard.

[surfside6]

The more you post the more it becomes obvious that you are so out of touch with the realities of LH CC that you are indeed irrelevant to any discussion regarding crew

[surfside6]

I find that many (not all) junior crew are unhappy and dont smile.
Most senior crew are happy and hardworking.
They realise that their time is coming to an end and they wont have have to put up with Dixon and his crew much longer.
I think you will find that was Willi B who started talking about unsmiling crew
and not me.
Your contributions to these forums are as relevant as Twiggs.
You represent a majority of ....one.
You never offer anything innovative just mindless commentary on others observations
...and of course the occassional personal dig.
You sir are a small barking dog and the wagon rolls on ...without you.

[Le 3rd Homme]

Customer surveys indicate it is people like Midnight 63 who are out of touch.
The reality is you need happy motivated staff who are well resourced to make positive things happen.
QF staff are neither motivated or well resourced.
As has been said they are a soft easy target.
Managers are responsible for the behaviour/performance of their workforce.
Not the other way around.
QF is definitely Animal Farm.
Animal Air certainly has a nice appropriate ring to it

[twiggs]

The time spent at home is,on average 18 days in 56.Two more days in the same period as a 9 to 5 employee.

How can the average be 18 days when the MINIMUM is 18 days?

Using your example for a typical 4 day LAX:
Slip time in foreign ports is now minimal.
4 Day LAX Patterns.
Leave SYD Friday morning...13 hour flight time
Arrive LAX 0630 Local time..awake all night
Go to bed..wake up, eat and then try to get some more sleep
Leave Saturday Night....14 hour flight time.
Arrive Sydney 0630 Monday morning.
Sleep,look after the kids,say hello to your partner and start getting ready to do it again.
For many crew this is their life.

If this is the only trip you do then you will work just over 24 days in 56, last time I checked that was 32 days off.
You made it sound like you had no time in LAX but I think in excess of 36 hours is plenty of time to recover.

Let's not let the truth get in the way of a good winge.

[twiggs]

The base pay for a 5 year FA is around $52,000 gross.
There are other components that bump this up.
Picture this ...the company forces you onto leave for 3 months on base pay.
You either go broke or get a second job.

How is someone with 5 years going to get forced onto 3 months long service leave when they have not yet reached the minimum 10 years required to utilise it?

Anyone who relies on money beyond their guaranteed basic income to pay their debts is living beyond their means and is therefore a fool.

[DEFCON4]

1.3 months leave....NOT long service
2.A minimum is not exclusive of an average...18 can be both an average and a minimum.
3.The LAX example did not say anything about Minimums or Averages.
It was your idea to exemplify it as multiples.
Try not to take excerpts out of context
Try a remedial reading course.
Perhaps english is not your first language...apologies... perhaps it is.
You did not take issue with the rest of the post..thank you.
Further, our reason for being on an aircraft is SAFETY.
No where in our job description does it specify that we are paid to smile.
Try smiling when you are evacuating 300 people from a burning aircraft after a terrain impact.
We are safety professionals...first and foremost...remember that...SAFETY.
You, and management seem a little blurred about that.
I observe I do not whinge you impertinent little twit

[Shlonghaul]

Anyone who relies on money beyond their guaranteed basic income to pay their debts is living beyond their means and is therefore a fool.

twiggs you really should'nt refer to your pin up boy Darth in this way! :eek:

[twiggs]

1.3 months leave....NOT long service
So what sort of leave are you referring to that people are supposedly being forced onto for 3 months at a time?

2.A minimum is not exclusive of an average...18 can be both an average and a minimum.
The only way a minimum can be an average is if all values are the minimum, ie all crew have 18 days off, no more.

3.The LAX example did not say anything about Minimums or Averages.
It was your idea to exemplify it as multiples.

You chose the 4 day LAX example to cry about how little rest we get in a slip port in the same breath as saying we only get 18 days off a roster.
So why then can't I use your own example to disprove your spin?


No where in our job description does it specify that we are paid to smile.
Try smiling when you are evacuating 300 people from a burning aircraft after a terrain impact.
It may not be in the job description but it is certainly assumed that service industry staff smile whether they are happy or not.

Mate, if you are evacuating 300 people from a BURNING aircraft then I don't think anyone will mind if you don't smile. Funny though, don't think it's ever happened at Qantas (BURNING that is), and that is good enough reason to smile.

[lowerlobe]

DEFCON4 and others....Do not take the bait with twiggs because as with some others her only intent is to incite an argument and have the thread closed.

She did not defend cabin crew against Scottydoo or Willie B or managers perspective and only appears to start an argument with crew.This has been shown time and again.

Quote from Twiggsy
In any service industry, we are paid to smile, even if we are not happy.

This is a thinly veiled message from the OFFICE.If you read between the lines it translates to ...

"You are paid to do a job and you are not paid to enjoy it and we do not care if you enjoy it or not"

[triadic]

It really is sad that there are people out there that feel this way about their job.

It has been said more than once that the cheapest way to manage (operate) LH FAs is to leave them at home! No wonder they don't want any more!

Under the present cost structure you don't have to be blind freddy to know that they are a terminal race.

The choice is to get real or keep dreaming!!

[Shlonghaul]

Funny though, don't think it's ever happened at Qantas (BURNING that is), and that is good enough reason to smile.
Yes it has happened twiggs. In 1960 a Super Constellation crashed on takeoff from Mauritius bursting into flames. The actions of an outstanding longhaul cabin and technical crew evacuating all passengers with six injured including three burned. I suppose that you and your cohorts will say I'm living in the past but that's when the proud tradition of Qantas, it's safety & service was built. Sadly that foundation has been cracked wide open by a bunch of greedy self centred :mad: masquerading as management concerned with only themselves and their next bonus. I have no respect for them and as far as I'm concerned they're so low they could parachute out of a snake's backside and still have room to freefall.

From triadick.........

It really is sad that there are people out there that feel this way about their job.


It's not the job it's those masquerading as management.

It has been said more than once that the cheapest way to manage (operate) LH FAs is to leave them at home!


No matter what happens in the future there will always be crew operating long haul flights!! There's no escaping us!! :E

[lowerlobe]

triadic....And I've never seen a post from any pilots talking about the company reducing their pay and conditions.

Why are you isolating cabin crew for trying to protect their conditions?

Shlonghaul is correct, we are there to act when the manure hits the turbine and a few here that seek to deny that fact are the dinosaurs.

[twiggs]

Thanks for the history lesson Schlong,
Don't suppose the Connie had 300 people crammed on board requiring evac?

Anyway the whole point was, safety related incidents of this magnitude happen very infrequently at Qantas.
If DEFCON4 can't smile because he/she is waiting for something to happen every time he/she flys, he/she should seek counselling.

[lowerlobe]

Shlonghaul..These people in the office never get it do they.:yuk:

It does not matter whether it is 50 or 500 people.There were a lot less crew on the Connie but to them we are nothing but biscuit chuckers.

The frequency of accidents is irrelevant in fact the most recent example of a survivable accident was accident in Canada.The Cabin Crew there did a fantastic job and there was no loss of life.

Twiggsy said...If DEFCON4 can't smile because he/she is waiting for something to happen every time he/she flys, he/she should seek counselling....

Well,Twiggsy if you were crew you would know that everytime you sit in a jump seat YOU SHOULD be expecting the worst and be prepared for it.Thats what we are there for and not to serve some clowns idea of what food is.

[prunezeuss]

Twiggs et al.never have a creative thought nor are they innovative.
They simply criticize and nitpick regarding semantics or misplaced commas
What sort of idiot advocates wage reductions or is happy when someone else has their wages cut?...
Triadick...try a pussy..... it might help you

[cartexchange]

On another note, anyone have any details about that idiot that got caught smuggling all those cartons of smokes into LHR
I believe that he still hasnt been sacked.

[twiggs]

Well,Twiggsy if you were crew you would know that everytime you sit in a jump seat YOU SHOULD be expecting the worst and be prepared for it.Thats what we are there for and not to serve some clowns idea of what food is.

Spot on lobe, for take off and landing, no argument.
Any other time, get real, if you are walking around mid flight and can't smile because you think something is going to happen then that is a bit strange.

Actually though lobe, we are there to serve the passengers food or whatever they need. Just because our primary role is that of safety, doesn't mean we don't have other roles.
I can't believe you lot are even defending the right NOT to smile!
You are an embarrassment, but at least I don't fly with people like you very often.

[roamingwolf]

twiggs said 'but at least I don't fly'

spot on girly.
someone said they saw a rugby league scrum around here.your right mate

[radiation junkie]

WOW, had a busy weekend and what a bun fight I have missed. LL in damage control. D4 ... "only the facts, Mam" . Twiggs, spinning on the spot as usual !
After 30 years and a knock back victim from the last VR fiasco (B'first), yes, I do have an attitude of total disengagement from the greedy bonus grabbing management clowns, but I do still love my job, and yes, I do still smile and treat our pax with the respect and professional care they deserve. This is to do with character and self respect as I would assume most LH crew would agree with. The FAAA has a big job ahead with the new EBA and the rumours of seniority destruction, but regardless of the outcome, I will still keep smiling at the pax , right up to the point where I am forced to leave due to the decimation of our conditions and seniority. There is nothing Qantas can do that will surprise me, as I am near the end of my flying days, but do feel sympathy for the junior crew who are blindly destroying their own future and grabbing at an equality that will never be achieved.
Keep smiling, we will need it to survive.... as our very own GD and his "lost in space" management robots say:
'YOU DO NOT MEET COST OF CAP ITAL...YOU MUST BE DES TROYED"...

[And5678]

I do have an attitude of total disengagement from the greedy bonus grabbing management clowns, but I do still love my job, and yes, I do still smile and treat our pax with the respect and professional care they deserve

Hear hear!

[Southside747]

Personally, as much as I would rather keep the system as it is, we have to go into possibly our most important battle with a united front. Everyone has to be in this together. As much as I disagree with the more junior who despise the system, without their support we are basically all gone.

A couple of ideas, they are only ideas so don't get personal. Worth discussing however.

Perhaps we should look at giving them a system of leave (rotating seniority) so the young mothers can get leave over school holidays once every say three years. When it comes to Christmas, those of us in the top third will be able to get the X days if not on leave, so it shouldn't cost us too badly. But it will give something to those who whine below.

I also feel not too much will be lost by doing similar to the techcrew and using a bucket style system. Perhaps a certain amount of direct LA's max, and maybe one San Fran per person per roster. This would share them around. I do feel dismayed when some who go to San Fran sit in their rooms the whole time, and talk about how they only go there back to back. May as well sit in your room in LA if you want. Those of us who go to the states and nowhere else can still do so, just maybe on slightly different trips. Not too much lost.

Perhaps a limit on Europes also, maybe 2 a roster. Should get more people there who want to go.

Personally, I am also in favour of 1 night slips over there (LA). Have done a few and would rather the extra days at home each roster if I can do them and nothing else. Just my opinion. Not everyone likes them so more of a mix perhaps.

Otherwise keep the system as it is. Us more senior have only lost a very small amount while those down the list should achieve a much greater return in theory. At least enough to keep them in the same trench when the battle nears.

The company gets some of what they want, and in return we need a few things. Pay. Us senior ones are the worst hit by the assigning of long service and annual leave and this needs to be addressed. Real pay has diminished for most in the last couple of years due to this, less allowances and Long Range after the London base, and the falling US dollar diminishing the value of US allowances. This needs to be fixed. Going backwards like we have been has to stop.

Recongniton of the contribution of cabin crew is also high. It really annoys me that we get portrayed as we do and respected as such. I feel insulted when paxing and getting bumped by all manner of staff from an upgrade. On one trip, the whole crew paxed home and the 4 tech crew (second officers included) got put in first while we were spread elsewhere. Surely the CSM is a senior manager in this company who should at least command the same respect or more as S/O's who always seem to travel in much more style. Same goes for uni graduates with 3 months in the company bumping someone who has 20 years plus. It is felt as an insult from the company when the above happens to a lot. They do not respect the effort and job we do.

To win, we are going to have to give a little, but demand a lot more in return.

United we must fight. Give a little and hopefully gain a lot.

[prunezeuss]

We give....they take.
They give....nothing.
Sounds fair....not
Give the bastards nothing.
What is a junior cabin crew member.?
Less than 15 years...less than 10...less than 5?
There are not as many junior crew as everyone thinks
If you have 15 years seniority your seniority is around 2300.
So there are 2300 crew more senior than 15 years.
How many long haul crew are there?Around 3200?
So there are 700 with less than 15 years seniority.
Not a majority.
So if the senior boys and girls give up something what are the junior boys and girls going to give up?
So we have junior,senior,company.
The company wants something, the juniors want something.
The only people giving and getting nothing are the senior crew.
Its really only the top 10% in each category who get want they want.
The rest of us get a compromise.
Me? I get the compromise..I am happy with that.
I would not be happy with what the company is offering.
They are offering AKL base conditions and nothing in return

[Southside747]

I am lucky enough to not get exactly what I want, but a reasonable share by being realistic in bidding.

However, my concern is the way things are going and the changes proposed I will get a huge amount less than that if it goes ahead the way they want it to.

There are a lot of bleaters out there with 15 years in the company. I am concerned that the numbers complaining may be enough to divide us to the extent it may weaken our overall resolve.

I don't want to give away anything but as always am happy to trade if I get something better. Changes to the bidding system must, and i repeat must, translate to improvements in other areas.

If push comes to shove do you think there is enough unity at present to flex some industrial muscle if required? I hope so.

[prunezeuss]

Just about everything that we have lost over the years has been down to minorities within our ranks.
The bid system is a perfect example.The"girls union"...a minority was responsible for its introduction and the loss of 75% standown.
Then when the deal was done and dusted they said we were conned.
The company had lied to them.
Gullible,naive and motivated by personal selfish interest.
Human beings are motivated by the primal of emotions......greed.
Promise them a rainbow and they would sell their own mother.
Same in this situation
We will get done over bigtime due to our self interest.
I expected to stay a few more years.
What I read on PPrune gives me little hope of an eqitable outcome.
I dont expect to be here in twelve months because there is no unity.
Management has these tea and bickie afternoons to glean this information.
From what they've heard they expect the EBA to be a walkover.
The worlds best job will be destroyed by the very people who do it.
The company just simply provides the forum for our own self destruction.
What a sad bloody irony?

[Southside747]

Try to see what I am saying. We need unity. Come up with suggestions how to achieve this.

Otherwise, lets change nothing, fight as we are and have for the last few years. Where has that got us? The last 5 years has seen the biggest erosion of conditions. We need to stop the tide running out.

And don't argue the election will fix everything overnight. Legislation changes take in most cases years to get through. Look how long it has taken the Liberals to get us where we are. They would have wanted to do it years ago but it took them until now. And they have a senate majority to do so. Don't think it won't take Labor a long time to unravel the mess making big changes to the way we do things.

[speedbirdhouse]

I for one don't mind sharing the trips around more equitably so that those at the bottom have more in the way of choice.

My concerns are that these kind of arrangements [packaged and gift-wrapped] will be nothing more than a smokescreen used to blind-side the naive whilst other hard one conditions are stripped to the bone.

3 day LAX trips, i.e. 24 hour slip?
You have to be kidding.

So desperate are management [cough] to recruit and maintain numbers in AKL that NZ's equivalent of the CES is now used to recruit. [dont even start me on the standard:}]

I don't think Longhaulers are stupid enough to vote yes to anything that destroys our careers.

----------------------

Interesting thread about the success of one of managements [cough] alternative workforces..........

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=724164

[Southside747]

By one night I meant 39 hours. Not 24. And not for all of them, keep a lot at the 60 hour mark. It's just that some of us prefer the 4 day ones. Some carry on about how wrong they are. Look how senior some of the 4 day trips get at times.

Not saying everyone else has to like that, put it up for a vote and see. Democratic majority rules and we all abide by that. If the majority think otherwise, I am happy to accept that and will not mention it again.

[And5678]

As I read the varied and interesting posts for this subject I find myself torn between the different opinions penned.

I wholeheartedly agree with the concept that we need to be careful when tinkering with the seniority based bidding system for short term gain. It has rewarded crew over the years. Things like access to lifestyle rostering, ability to bid with mates, and a system that for most parts is transparent and creates order, ie. we know where we stand in the game.

The system that we operate under is around 20 years old. Since it was introduced a number of critical changes has occurred -

* overseas bases
* Melbourne & Brisbane bases
* reduced local recruitment
* less destinations
* increased long range flying
* Australian Airlines/Jetstar
* Short Haul regional flying

Over that time, minimal if any changes have been made to the way the bidding system operates. Some of the arguments I hear to maintain the system as is, I believe fail to recognise these important events in our flying. In MEL you have the situation where 15% of the base earns substantially more than the remainder, and another 15% struggle to even gain a trip with a slip port.

Although there will always be extreme views on the fringes of our community, I don't believe most junior crew want the bidding system based on seniority abolished. The concept of seniority and what it has to offer is well regarded. Most just want the system to evolve and respect their circumstances.

Suggestions that I think have merit and are worth discussion include rotating seniority for leave, capping of selected trips, bidding for style of trips as opposed to specific trips. In addition, is it worth considering the introduction of casuals and FWA system (dumping and picking up of trips) that short haul has?

I hope the majority of us in here continue the positive discussion and expression of ideas that has occurred to date and we achieve some well deserved wins come EBA.

[twiggs]

Qantas can upgrade to the new software whenever they want, providing the terms of our EBA are enforced, ie language in seniority then general seniority.

Therefore we should be keen to get the new software before any change to the EBA happens.
Only then will we know if the new software is able to improve anyone's rosters UNDER OUR PRESENT EBA.

[RedTBar]

My understanding is that the system that the company wants (jeppesen) is not just a software upgrade but a whole new system.

Therefore,it is not just an add on but a seperate entity.The problem is not just what they say it can do but what they can use it to do.

When the company was pushing the bid system they told us a number of things that turned out vastly different to what we were led to believe.

Be wary of anyone advising us to do something before the EBA has expired.

[twiggs]

So tell me where in the EBA it says Qantas have to use the current 20 year old software to allocate our trips on seniority?

I think that Qantas would rather not implement it straight away, because then we would see a marked improvement in rosters, even for more junior crew, and consequently lessen the push to abandon seniority from the junior ranks.

[Torres]

A seniority system simply ensures that eventually the most incompetent will exceed their maximum level of incompetence!

:yuk:

[mrpaxing]

the current so called bid system has had 35+ changes since its original version was introduced in 88.
the jeppeson system is a new system
it is designated to be active in the 3rd quarter in 08 with the introduction of the A380.
it will accomandate all Qf lh/sh tech & cabin crew.
the original version is a senority based system.
i agree with Tbar "When the company was pushing the bid system they told us a number of things that turned out vastly different to what we were led to believe.
Be wary of anyone advising us to do something before the EBA has expired".

[roamingwolf]

mrpaxing and tbar are right.it's not what the company tells us it can do but what they want to do with it thats a worry.
the rugby league scrum is telling us to go straight into it and no worries:yuk:
'we would see a marked improvement in rosters' says the scrum.yeah right girly
if dixon told us tomorro was wed i wouldn't believe him or the scrum

[twiggs]

it is designated to be active in the 3rd quarter in 08 with the introduction of the A380.

Well if that's the case, our EBA should well and truly be settled before the new system is active.

[roamingwolf]

it's beaut to see someone who takes an each way bet :E

[And5678]

the current so called bid system has had 35+ changes since its original version was introduced in 88.


Have these changes been significant or cosmetic? In the nearly ten years I have been around I can't recall any that are of a significant nature.

Can anyone share some information to the contrary?

[surfside6]

All this discussion is academic
We need real and honest information regarding this new software.
Whether changes and what changes have been made to the current software is irrelevent.
The fact is the current software is not up to the task and the demands placed on it.
We need some detail..Jeppesen must have a website.
Lets find it and get some solid info and finish this pointless speculation.
But first....
Jeppesen is owned by Boeing
Carmen is owned by Jeppesen

[mrpaxing]

www.jeppesen.com
www.carmensystems.com check out the options
And5678 i think you might have noticed an increase of demand days, not getting what you bid for etc.not every amendment to the current system has a visible impact, but it surely does not help in its outcome.:ok:

[lowerlobe]

After reading the web site for jeppesen and searching for what the system can do I came up with the answer.

How long is a piece of string?

[Eden99]

23 August 2007
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
FAAA WEBSITE POLL
The FAAA is happy to advise members that we have enhanced our website to allow polling of members. This new facility will allow the FAAA to rapidly check the “pulse” of our members on a range of important issues and thus get a valuable, accurate and speedy indicator of where members stand on important issues.
The new facility will be an invaluable tool in the lead up to EBA8 negotiations.
To vote and to see the updated voting result, a member will have to log on to the FAAA website. The system will only allow (1) vote from a member for each poll question.
Our first poll of Qantas Long Haul crew asks the question:
“DO YOU SUPPORT THE CURRENT BID SYSTEM”
Please vote and urge other crew to vote and we can all be in a better position to understand what Long Haul crew , as a group, think about topical issues.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov –Secretary International Division
20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel 61 2 8337 1111 Fax 61 2 8337 1122 Emergency Contact 0414 894 192