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terronnd
3rd Aug 2007, 04:00
Air NZ buying 4 B777-300 with 3 options to replace B747-400.

horserun
3rd Aug 2007, 04:37
So the long-haul fleet will consist 777-200, 777-300 and 787-9...... Ha ha ha ha.. looks like there will be a lot more work coming up for the Air NZ boys and girls if Mr Boeing making the 787 and 777 a common type rating !!!!

Will be sad to see the queen of the skys go though.

horserun
3rd Aug 2007, 04:48
And a question for those in the know.
How will 4 777-300's replace 8 747's. Would one expext Air NZ to execute more options?

slamer.
3rd Aug 2007, 04:55
have they said that ALL the B744 are going.

billyt
3rd Aug 2007, 04:57
Currently 8 744's,8 772's and 6 767. Total 22 widebodies
Planned by 2013 7 773's, 8 772's and 8 787. Total 23 widebodies.

About the same total seats.


That's expansion for you.

Going Boeing
3rd Aug 2007, 04:59
How will the B777 go on the HKG-LHR route re engine out performance vs high MEA's adjacent to the Tibetan plateau?

billyt
3rd Aug 2007, 05:00
The full announcement to NZX
AIR
03/08/2007
GENERAL
REL: 1445 HRS Air New Zealand Limited (NS)
GENERAL: AIR: Boeing 777 Announcement
Air New Zealand Purchases Boeing 777-300ERs
Air New Zealand announced today that it will purchase four Boeing 777-300
Extended Range (ER) aircraft, as it continues to implement its wide-body
fleet renewal programme.
Chief Executive Officer Rob Fyfe says the aircraft will be delivered in
parallel with the airline's Boeing 787-9 between late 2010 and 2011. The
airline has also secured purchase options for a further three B777-300ER
aircraft.
The purchase of the four Boeing 777-300ERs, which was achieved based on
prices agreed in 2004, represents a substantial discount to today's list
price of USD$1.1 billion.
"The purchase rights for the 777-300ERs were obtained from Boeing in 2004,
and the confidence we showed in the future of Air New Zealand when the
aircraft purchasing market was at the bottom of the cycle three years ago has
really paid off," says Mr Fyfe.
Today's announcement takes the amount committed by Air New Zealand to long
haul fleet investment to more than NZ$2.6 billion.
"When we have taken delivery of all the aircraft we have on order, Air New
Zealand will have one of the youngest, most technologically advanced, most
fuel efficient and most environmentally friendly long haul fleets in the
world. Simply, we will set a high benchmark and standard for all our
competitors both in terms of operational efficiency and world-class products
and service," Mr Fyfe says.
The latest acquisitions will allow Air New Zealand to move to a full 777 and
787 twin engine fleet for long-haul flights around 2012, with the 747s and
767s being phased out as the new aircraft are introduced to the network.
"Our eight 747-400s have been the mainstay of our long haul fleet for almost
18 years, and have proven to be a real workhorse for the airline. However,
the Boeing 787-9 and 777 aircraft are much better suited to Air New Zealand's
long-term growth strategy of serving new markets point-to-point, and offer
significant environmental benefits through higher fuel efficiency and reduced
carbon emissions."
The Boeing 787 is 20% more fuel efficient than other long-haul aircraft,
while the 777s in Air New Zealand's fleet are 16% more efficient than its
747s. The 777s will be powered by one of the world's most highly efficient
and reliable engines manufactured by General Electric.
"Since the early 1990s we have been steadily reducing our CO2 emissions per
passenger due to fleet upgrades, technology improvements and better operating
practices and we are determined to continue that trend and take advantage of
the technological advances that have been made in aircraft engineering and
manufacturing in recent years," Mr Fyfe says.
Air New Zealand currently has eight Boeing 777-200ERs in its fleet and eight
Boeing 787-9s on order, for delivery over the next five years. The airline is
the launch customer for the Boeing 787-9.
Mr Fyfe says the 787s and 777-300ER aircraft will provide Air New Zealand
with a solid platform to realise its growth ambitions over the next decade,
given their ability to fly direct to regions like India, South America, Asia
and deep into China and North America.
"But having aircraft that allow us to achieve our environmental and new
destination ambitions are just two parts of the equation to ensure Air New
Zealand's continued success. How we design the interiors of those aircraft
is what will really set us apart from the competition and give us a
competitive advantage.
"To ensure we continue to remain at the cutting edge of delivering a unique
and inspirational product for long haul travel we are working closely with
IDEO, one of the world's most innovative design organisations, on the design
for the Boeing 787-9 and Boeing 777-300ER interior product," he says.
"Our goal is to redefine long-haul travel. Air New Zealand's premium product
broke new ground when it was introduced in 2005. We plan to change the game
again in 2010 with a world-leading product that is both inspirational and
uniquely Kiwi.
"Over the past two years we have seen exceptional growth in yields on our
long haul product thanks to the substantial efforts and investment we put
into creating a game-changing proposition. We expect the next evolution will
build on that success and really take our customers' long-haul experience to
the next level."

company_spy
3rd Aug 2007, 05:07
ANZ may have to do something to stem the tide of 777 LAMEs flooding out of the counrty. Word around the traps is they are only just keeping up, guys are leaving before they even get the KIWI endorsement chasing the big bucks in Asia. That's supply and demand for you........

terronnd
3rd Aug 2007, 05:24
Currently 8 744's,8 772's and 6 767. Total 22 widebodies
Planned by 2013 7 773's, 8 772's and 8 787. Total 23 widebodies.



Actually 5 767 currently, so gain of 2.

belowMDA
3rd Aug 2007, 06:26
Going Boeing...

can't be any worse than a 747 depressurised :8

Billyt: they can probably get much better utilisation out of one type (777) than a mix of 777 & 747.

Going Boeing
3rd Aug 2007, 06:48
can't be any worse than a 747 depressurised

When you are depressurised then you can keep the pax & crew on oxygen and remain at MEA until clear of the high terrain, whereas when you have an engine out your max altitude is limited by aircraft performance. I haven't flown the Tripler so I was interested in what its single engine performance is at heavy weights relative to the high MEA's on B330/B215 air routes adjacent to the Tibetan plateau (in particular the -300ER which wouldbe the model used on the route).

flying_inverted
3rd Aug 2007, 07:09
Currently 8 744's,8 772's and 6 767. Total 22 widebodies
Planned by 2013 7 773's, 8 772's and 8 787. Total 23 widebodies.

About the same total seats.


That's expansion for you.

Rumour has it AirNZ is going to firm up or has firmed up its 8 options(UFO) for the 787-9, can anyone confirm this?

1279shp
3rd Aug 2007, 09:11
With the announcement re the 777, heard Air NZ will be very soon turning some of its Bombardier Q options into orders. Five Q200's - yup the Q200 - to be used on certain high-yield Eagle routes.

This would enable Eagle to use their own machines on routes where
Vincent and National are currently paid to fly.

With Eagle getting another newish B1900, making 18, makes some sense. Oh, and a sim too!

Question: Air NZ optioned 20 Bombardiers on top of the 17 Q300's they ordered. Q200/Q300/Q400's. The Q300 order was increased by 3 to 20 earlier this year. So IF the 5 Q200's rumoured are coming, that leaves 12 more a/c. Q400's???

Or with the ATR sim, is the big slug staying? :confused:

1279shp
3rd Aug 2007, 09:13
Yup, losing one on the long Bong would be interesting when you're a wee ways offshore, but those big GE's are pretty impressive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pSabZ9BIkc

flying_inverted
3rd Aug 2007, 10:01
that leaves 12 more a/c. Q400's???

5 Q200's + 12 more could they be Q200's? Replacement for the 1900's in the near future?

Taildragger67
3rd Aug 2007, 12:00
South America

The NZSX press release mentions the possibility of flights to South America...

OK if going via/near Easter Island, I can understand it, but if they did, say, direct Auckland - Buenos Aires, Santiago or Sao Paulo (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=NZAA-SAEZ%0D%0ANZAA-SCEL%0D%0ANZAA-SBGR%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=180) (even with a stop in say Rio Gallegos for the former), doesn't that go a bit south for 180m ETOPS?

flying_inverted
4th Aug 2007, 00:54
South America

The NZSX press release mentions the possibility of flights to South America...

OK if going via/near Easter Island, I can understand it, but if they did, say, direct Auckland - Buenos Aires, Santiago or Sao Paulo (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=NZAA-SAEZ%0D%0ANZAA-SCEL%0D%0ANZAA-SBGR%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&ETOPS=180) (even with a stop in say Rio Gallegos for the former), doesn't that go a bit south for 180m ETOPS?

:ok:

Wikipedia

ETOPS exclusions

Private jets are exempted from ETOPS by the FAA, but are subject to the ETOPS-120 minute rule in the JAA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Aviation_Authorities)'s jurisdiction. Several commercial airline routes are still off-limits to twinjets because of ETOPS regulations. They are routes traversing the South Pacific (e.g. Auckland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland) - Santiago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago%2C_Chile)), Southern Indian Ocean (e.g. Perth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth%2C_Western_Australia) - Johannesburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannesburg)) and Antarctica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica) (e.g. Auckland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland) - Buenos Aires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires)).

horserun
4th Aug 2007, 02:29
1279shp you Eagle boys have a snow balls chance in hell of getting Q200!!

The Q200 has the same engines (PW123) as the Air Nelson Q300, so in effect the operating costs would be the same. Why not just get more Q300?? They carry 13 more pax!
The high yeild Eagle routs will just go to Air Nelson.

Im sick of Eagle pilots going on about how they are getting Q200s. It will never happen.

muttly's pigeon
4th Aug 2007, 03:20
Good on you horserun yet again :ugh: Other kids laugh at you in the group session at your eag interview did they? Seems to be so given the tone of your previous posts.

Why not just get more Q300??

One might think acqisition cost could be a factor in that. disc: I have never brought an a/c myself.

The high yeild Eagle routs will just go to Air Nelson

Such as NZGS??????

Im sick of Eagle pilots going on about how they are getting Q200s

Maybe they will get 300's and drop the regularity of services, who knows.... Maybe it will be a happy marriage between nsn and eag, maybe something better than any Q will be on the market by then but if it a fleet replacement was to take place today I think many people would agree eag would take up a Q2 or 3.

flying_inverted
5th Aug 2007, 09:35
How will 4 777-300's replace 8 747's. Would one expext Air NZ to execute more options?

AirNZ will firm up their 3 options as the last few 744's are phased out, and possbily order a few more.

have they said that ALL the B744 are going.

Yes:sad:

1279shp
6th Aug 2007, 02:12
There is no way that Eagle Air will be getting Q200's. Agree.
IF Air NZ did decide to go Q200's they will be operated by Air Nelson, no question. The Eagle troops suggesting they'll be op-ing them, are dreaming!:8 Eagle is brilliant at what they do, furiosly operating 19 seaters.

The Q200 comes with a slightly less powerful version of the Q300's engine, so yeah the economical differences aren't really there. Still one hostie no matter 35 or 50 seats.

Air NZ did buy the Q311 with the smaller engines though, but yup they'll prob stick with Q300's. Oh and maybe some Q400's! :}

27/09
6th Aug 2007, 02:51
Or with the ATR sim, is the big slug staying?

I think Mt Cook quite like the ATR at least a whole lot more than the Q400. I don't think they want anything to do with the Q400. From what I've heard the Q400 has its issues.

As for 5 Q200's. Got to ask the question, other than aquisitions costs, what is the advantage over just getting Q300's and be done with it. Unless of course......

On Guard
6th Aug 2007, 04:07
Would Air NZ not have been better to wait for the 787-10? Perhaps the replacement plan req. new a/c for 2011. Think the 787-10 is due 2013 or so?

Going Boeing
6th Aug 2007, 04:30
On Guard. That's what Qantas plans. Keep the B744's in service until the B787-10 is available (ie to get the latest tecnology). The 30 B744's (& 4 B743's) will be replaced by a mixture of A380's (20) and B787-10's which gives great flexibility for different routes.
1279shp, would the Q200 have better performance out of limiting airports in comparison with the Q300? Which airports in NZ are limiting for this size turboprop?

horserun
6th Aug 2007, 04:55
1279shp: Your a top man!!! Agree with every word you say.

Going Boeing: Your on the money. The dash 8-200 (or Q200) came about with the demand to operatethe the dash 8-100 out of hot and heigh airfields. The 200 is the same size as the 100, but with the 300 series engines, and an increase in the ZFW. The Q400 is a different kettle of fish all together and has more in common with an ATR72, even though it is a dash.

Now back to the topic at hand. It will be a sad day when the last 744 goes, should have ANZ brought the 747-800???

ZKSUJ
6th Aug 2007, 05:57
I personally would have like the 748, but yea... We'll see maybe a possibility in the future.

IMO the 748 had better fuel economy and would be able to sustain a growth in the premium cabins without sacrificing economy seats when compared to the 77W which they have just ordered. And not to mention that by 2012 when all of them arrive, the 77W will be nearing a decade old. (Just a personal opinion)

Just one thing about the Q series aircraft. Does anyone know the rules since they have been updated. From what I understood, Eagle will have to quit serving some of their routes if they do go Q200 in future as many of their aerodromes don't have crash and fire services. PLaces like Whakatane, Wanganui, Wanaka etc etc...

I think it was if an aircraft has more than 20 PAX seats or something that it needed rescue services. Something which Eagle has to it's advantage at the moment.

As for the ATR's, they don't need replacing for a while yet right?

On Guard
6th Aug 2007, 06:13
I think ATR's are up for replacement soon. Poss more ATR's to replace but with Air Nelson's capacity pretty close they may go something different. ATR similar running costs as Q300 but seats 16 more. AirNZ will not allow them to get jets - don't quote me on that :), heresay.

747-800 - Reading into it I don't think this is suitable for Air NZ's future strategy. 550 seats maybe only useful on the AA-LAX-LHR route. My feeling is they are going for more point to point markets, into North America, India/Asia etc. One stops ultra long haul Auckland to XX.

Shame the 748 will be a great aircraft but I can see the sense in the strategy.

ZKSUJ
6th Aug 2007, 06:27
That is true, but my personal logic was that if NZ have less than 400 seats on their 744s, they are only looking at 450 ish in the 748s.

I do see you point and it is very valid. But while I agree with point to point to a certain length, New Zealand is a small country at the end of the world with a small poopulation base. There is only so much point to point you can do from here. IMO All LHR routes could sustain that size which would bring 6 frames into the mix.

But its just an opinion and managment knows what they are doing, and new a/c is good news anyway and congrats to NZ. If there is a need in future, I'm sure we will see 748/Y3 aircraft.

c100driver
6th Aug 2007, 07:30
The B747-8 does not have the legs for AKL-LAX plus alt, as the aircraft is not an extended performance B744. This aircraft was designed from the outset as a freighter, and the pax versions was configured and optimised for the only Airline to order the pass version todate, Lufthanza.

slamer.
6th Aug 2007, 09:37
https://myairnz.airnz.co.nz/images/air_nz/planes/b777-300ER.jpg

OK......heres a prediction on the Air NZ widebody fleet circa 2012

16- B789 (or variant)
7- B773
8- B722

31 total

Going Boeing
6th Aug 2007, 09:51
c100driver, the B748 is designed to carry a full payload 8000NM which is why it originally was proposed with a shorter fuselage than the B748F. When Boeing's wind tunnel testing and computer modeling revealed that the new technology would perform better than predicted they then revised their offer for the pax version to have the same fuselage as the freighter and still retain the 8000NM range. It would do SYD - DFW with a full payload - a very attractive aeroplane. The four engine config would mean no problems AKL - Sth America and HKG - LHR (high terrain). The main reason why Air NZ probably won't buy it is because of the high cost of having an extra fleet in relatively small numbers. Generally, a fleet of less than 12 means that the operating costs are significantly higher - mainly due to to the spares inventory and other maintenance issues.

ZKSUJ
6th Aug 2007, 23:55
Slammer - Just remember that 4 of the 772s are due back to the leasors in that time frame. So unless their contracts are renewed, we are looking at about 27 a/c frames