VB ad today's Australian

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Looks like recruitment is about to ramp up. Ads for both Embraer f/o and
737ng f/o.

Good luck to all who apply, and if the rumours are correct about VB targeting a certain regional, there might be some Dash 8s being parked before long.

[GAFA]

Figures I've heard they are looking at 80-100 pilots before the end of October.

[rotcivtolip]

Minimum requirements:
B737NG type rating

So, you have to pay for your endorsement then??:ugh:

[bullamakanka]

The advert for the 737 asks for the endo and 50hrs on type. Yet the Embraer advert does not ask for the endo nor time on type. Maybe its free/bonded/salary sacrificed on the Emb and all new pilots go onto this first? Any one on the inside know?

Does anyone know where they plan to endorse the Emb pilots? Is it in Hong Kong or are there plans to get a sim in Australia before they ramp up recruiting and training. A trip O/S for the endo could be very expensive.

What were the final pay scales agreed upon for the Emb in the EBA? I know there was a thread on it but I cant seem to find it using the search function.

Its good to see another surge in jobs coming up, however it will be good to find out all the terms.

Bulla

[Roost]

Endo's and training in singapore for the moment but EMB sim in Brisbane for January.

From the horse's mouth

[SOPS]

OK..they expect you to pay for your own endorsement (bad enough), but if you do this, just how to they expect you to get 50 hours on type? Buy it!!??:confused:

[slice]

This ad I think is aimed at experienced 73NG or classic guys for a quick start (ie already endorsed).

[2p!ssed2drive]

Who are experienced 737NG pilots... Slice?? the guys flying Dash8's?? :confused:

[GAFA]

Who are the experienced 73NG or classic guys ?

The pilots flying for Jetconnect, Air Van, Express Freighters, Air Pacific, Hong Kong Express etc etc etc.

[32megapixels]

So VB, you are struggling to find applicants for the EMB!!

No surprise, the pilots in VB's upper ranks have told you guys in management this.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys, the only thing is the zoo is runnning out.

As far as I am concerned and so many more pilots, you can shove it!!

I don't see this job as a step forward. Unless you are flying a Chieftain a 404 or Baron, then maybe.

Anything above 5700kg moving to the EMB, I don't think so.

Good luck! L-oosers.

[Dehavillanddriver]

32 megapixels

What exactly do you think they are paying for the Embraer?

Not that it matters - I suspect from your post that you may have missed out recently.

Can I remind you of your words not all that long ago?

I honestly do not like the slagging that other pilots give either Jet* or VB in any respect, but would it influence you in getting a career with another airline down the track if you were to choose one over the other now. In regards to Cathay, M-Rats etc.

[No Idea Either]

Its all part of the industrial process. "We advertised and had no takers, please Mr President, can we have our 457 visas now!!!!!!!!!" And if this happens, what then happens to all you guys still in GA. Think long and hard my friends. Dont get me wrong, I think it all stinks......:*:*:*:*:*

[BAE146]

Dont get me wrong, I think it all stinks...... Bullsh*t you do. With comments like Think long and hard my friends....if you're not VB management, it won't be long before you are!:mad:

[G.A. Boy]

That's OK, I am prepared to give the EMBs a go!

[D.O.G]

Don’t worry, I’m probably a stubby short of a six pack but for what it is worth let them have the 457 visas along with every other airline in AUS.

If the trees in AUS are so picked clean of drivers; and then, given we typically have an oversupply, I suggest that there would be very little takers given the conditions on offer. The end result will be park or pay (given no major disaster).

[No Idea Either]

Quadrapuff,

Check my posts fool. All I said was think long and hard. Playing devils advocate that's all. Think about the alternatives. My post was generally in response to 32 megs previous post. I don't advocate what's happened at VB and/or J* at all. If you want to fly a chieften forever, good luck to you. Personal attacks only demean both you and our profession. There's only one way to solve this industries woes and that's for us all (jet/GA) to be represented on one united front. But I can't see that happening. The AFAP (didn't they help us out in our EBA...NOT) dont want to know about any other unions/associations (look at their efforts with AIPA and VIPA) and they're all for the MPL (which I think will only undermine our position further). Contrary to what management would like us to believe, the crunch is coming and they will do anything to avoid it, including importing drivers. It is happening now in nearly every other profession in the country and it most likely will happen with us, very shortly. Where does that leave you my neandethal friend. Look beyond your furrowed brow and make a rational informed decision on your future for the next 30 years. And FYI, I voted NO, pleaded on the line with guys to vote NO, unfortunately have to wait another 4.5 years to correct 'our' mistake, have been offered management positions on and off over the last 20 years, always politely declined because I'd probably have had to deal with people like you? And I trust that the paying public can count on your application embargo. Idiot!

[KRUSTY 34]

Pheeeww!!

Struck a raw nerve there methinks BAE146.

Before you get stuck in N.I.E, playing devils advocate is fine, but I think we may be missing the point.

They are desperate!

DJ advertising in the Aussie,

REX doing roadshows,

Numerous other operators, including those above advertising overseas!

Give me a freak'n break!

All and any of the suitable applicants for these positions are mearly a mouse click away. They, (the operators) either don't get it or are clutching at straws. Probably both.

I'm amazed that It hasn't sunk in yet. Like all the others, DJ are going down to the wire with every half ars@d hair brained scheme that HR, (we all know how bright they are..) can come up with.

The idea of advertising for experienced 73NG drivers is just another example of how out of touch they are.

In the end, only one thing will fix this problem. MONEY, and lots of it.

[bushy]

Paying big bucks to hire bitchy, negative, overage, underqualified stirrers is the last thing they will do. They may have to, but it will be the last thing.

[laser650]

So what are the Pays For Capt n FO going to be?

That is base and after allowances for the Year

Cheers :)

[Sqwark2004]

So, are they going to charge for the endorsments on the Jungle Jets?

Looking at the website, it still asks if we are willing to pay for our own?

S2k4

[KRUSTY 34]

No probs Sir Don,

When's your start date?

[32megapixels]

Dehavillanddriver - good research.

The pilots are not deserving, you are correct. This was not my direction of critism.

What is evident is the lack of industry research management has done. Bean counters such as Brett Godfrey and politicians such as Transport Minister Mark Vale (best friends) come in, reap benefits of companies such as Virgin Blue et al, and then after a 5-7 year period take their bonuses while leaving nothing for the workers.

There is and has been for several years a declining perception of the aviation industry as a highly skilled profession. While it doesn’t take a genius to operate an aircraft, it does take a great deal of training, patients, dedication and loyalty over many years to get to a level of professionalism suited for a job on an EMB, or an aircraft in this category of operation.

It is insulting the package on offer and for someone in my shoes, who could choose this path if I decided, I choose not to. I could commit to this and yes, then that step to another company.

However, I do not see this as beneficial when it comes to moving again, and with family considerations it is just not worth the hassle. While a training wage eases the difficulty of transitioning into a job like this one, the benefits for many of us in the industry are not completely obvious and so choose not to apply.

It is a profession; it should be respected as one.

[DUXNUTZ]

Seems like they should have quite a few resumes on file without needing to advertise. Know many others who haven't had any communication and submitted info many months ago with updates.

[BATTERED SAV]

Agree with DNUTZ, I have been applying to VB since 2001 still never had any communication, nor interview. Talked with a couple of Rex boys last week in Sydney and told the same story. All of us have 7000 to 8000 hours of experience, 2 crew, training, turbo prop, bla bla bla but no jet time. What gives, why do they need to advertise overseas, "WHERE HERE" waiting. I am still having to apply overseas due to the lack of interest by the operators in Aus.
I suppose having too much time and in your late 30's doesn't meet the profile yet, even with the current pilot shortage.
But from what I hear, VB are losing as many as they are employing and still cannot figure out how they are going to crew there expanding airline.

Have a look at us bastards who are starting to go grey, were not planning to go anywhere, we have family's, commitments and sick to death of trying to get there first jet job. Oh and that thinking that it is harder to teach older, more experienced turbo prop pilots is crap you might find they could bring a wealth of experience, support and stability to your operation.

Battered Sav

[international hog driver]

Battered Sav

I have not read a truer more succinct post since I started ppruneing 11 years ago.

Its too bad that i had to go os for the illusive "jet job" and would love to be able to continue my career in my home country.

It is such a shame that short term management do not realize the value that some people can bring to an organization.


IHD

[greenslopes]

The only way any Co can get imported labour is via the process dictated by federal Govnmnt, so the only way to stop this going ahead is to lobby your local federal member and rope in your union. All the pissing and moaning on here will do is re-affirm the belief that all pilots are good for is crying in their beer when the going get tough!

[Capt Basil Brush]

They may have put the ad in to make people aware that there is now a new segment in the online application that covers the E Jet?

I think some of the 53% 'Yes' people are now thinking that a 'No' would have been a better option on the EBA vote. :ugh:

[Dehavillanddriver]

Megapixel

You didnt answer my question.

How much do you think the pay is for the EMB?

You say it is an insult - but what in particular is an insult? - the base salary? the work rules? Even the lowest rate of pay on the EMB as a First Officer is still well above the average pay for Australians.

Could it be better - absolutely. Is it worse than other operators of the E Jet in Australia? No - it is a better base salary and better overall package with better long term prospects - and those other operators do not offer moves onto the 737 and possibly the 777.

Do I think that it could be improved - yes I do - but I also take a longer term view - I look at what we were on when we joined Virgin and look at what we have today - despite all the rhetoric and bitterness about the recently voted on terms and conditions, things are without doubt better than they were, and there have been improvements with each agreement

It is relative,but I guess that is where you have the advantage - you can make a judgement about whether the package on offer is for you (and by your posts I assume you have) - the people that I get a bit annoyed about are the ones who join knowing what the deal is and then start whinging when they get there.

For those that think that Emirates is a better option - go for your life - but for me it isnt, the salary between Emirates and Oz is not all that much different in REAL terms - once you take into consideration direct and indirect taxes, the cost of living - including the cost of getting home on the odd occasion, the inflation rate and the fact that as a foreigner you have absolutely NO rights.

I have worked as an expat and like 99% of all other expats I spent a fair amount of my free time figuring out how to get home (and how to get back again).

The allure of a big shiny 777 or A330/340 is certainly attractive, and would be great fun for a few years - but thats the limit - after a few years you start looking at ways of getting home.

If you left a jet job in Oz to go there you are pretty much stuffed as you will be an expat for the rest of your working life.

so megapixel, if you have not been rejected and are just making a stand on "principle" I reckon it might be worth taking stock of what is important in life. If you have been unsuccessful - well sorry - it is unfortunate and very disappointing - been there done that - but there is life outside of VB, J* and QF - but in my books that life isnt worth considering unless there is no other option.

[Warped Wings]

BATTERED SAV,

Up until recently, Virgin very much relied on personal references. The interview process was not much more than a quick chat to confirm that you didn't have D**KHEAD stamped on your forehead (did not always work IMO:hmm:).Given the large number of pilots required, this selection method could not last forever and a more objective process is now in place.

As for the right candidate "profile", I can tell you that we have FO's who were in their early 20's to guy's in their 50's when they were employed without jet time (obviously with total hours commensurate with age).

The pilot market has changed such that Virgin will be forced to look at as many candidates as it can attract given the competition in the marketplace for FO's.

Best of luck getting the job you want.

WW

[coaldemon]

Personal recommendations or "Blue-staring" makes a big difference in getting your name on the interview list. As for people leaving and not getting enough to cover them, 12 have left in the last three months (including the ones going to Emirates currently) and over 50 have started most with prior Jet time. Oldest pilot recruited Extremely close to 60 and youngest early 20s. Sitting back moaning that no one ever looks at me doesn't really seem to me to suggest being proactive about things. Get your resume in front of someone that counts and do some marketing. From what I have been told the Job Ad on Friday is to rejuvenate the Database and to inform Expats that recruitment is going on. Quite a few from Europe have been interviewed for FO slots and the Ad will let others Know that there is a chance if they want it. As for directing it at foriegn pilots from memory it had the " must have right to work in Australia" as part of the requirements. Good Luck in securing a position.

[DUXNUTZ]

Guess i'm gonna have to go get some jet time.

[Gnadenburg]

What about DEC's on the 777? :}

[Blue Ruin]

This is not gospel, however from what I hear, it is pretty close.

Embraer FO first year pay around $74408 minus $30000 (endorsement cost) equals $44408 + O/N allowances.

Let me explain.

Virgin will INITIALLY pay for the Embraer endorsement (don't worry you will pay it back) and pay you a reduced training salary (amount yet to be resolved and conveniently wasn't addressed in the EBA) salary whilst you are training.

After you are checked to line, your "Salary" will still be a "reduced salary" which deducts the cost of the Embraer Training ($30,000) from your first year gross pay.

Frozen on Embraer for a period of 30 months from the date you are cleared to line.
After all this you are still on a 6 month probation.
After 12 months, when you have repaid the cost of your endorsement, you go onto Normal FO salary $74408

You would think this may yet bite them because, if someone has the choice b/w an Airbus with Jetstar or an E-Jet with VB, then Jetstar looks to be a better option.

[Hans Solo]

Any one know where the Regional Embraer bases are likely to be??

[Yusef Danet]

"Any one know where the Regional Embraer bases are likely to be??"

Brisbane, Melbourne and.. you guessed it, Sydney.

Long term, if a mining company or two like it, Perth is a possibility.

[Dances_With_Clouds]

Hey Guys and Girls.

I've just been looking over the application form and have a few questions. Would really appreciate any help.

1. Total Flying Time - Instrument
(Is this total instrument time that has being logged (i.e. Actual + Simulated) or is it flying time on an instrument flight plan (i.e. under IF rules).


2. Aircraft Type Ratings. What aircraft type rating do you hold?
If I answered No to the question regarding type ratings on Virgin aircraft, what do I need to put in here? (It won't let me move on until I have entered something in the box).

Thanks for any help.

D_W_C

[GUARD]

Dances,

In answer to question 1, just stick to logged time and question 2 should be what you are actually endorsed on. I have an interview so it must work:)

GUARD:ok:

[bullamakanka]

If Blue Ruin is correct then VB can p**s off. I will stick with the dash over that. Can some one tell me when this "pilot shortage" going to start?

Bulla.

[max autobrakes]

Looks like the Eastern Pilots will get career progression after all, only not in Qantas. :E
Wouldn't a Group Opportunity List go some way towards stemming the 25% attrition rate?

[Dogman]

Can anyone confirm or deny if you receive a training salary whilst you are undertaking your endorsement (either 73 with Alteon or overseas for Embraer). I only ask this, cause for those of us with families, mortages etc....a month/6 weeks without any pay coming in + having to pay for your own accom and food etc.......well its a big ask!

Cheers

DM

[Servo]

DM,

After just spending 3 days on the line with a new 73 FO, no you dont get any pay until you pass your sim check with Virgin, the pay check we call it. Been like that for the last 6 odd years where guys/gals have had to pay for their own endorsement.

Yes it is a very big ask. Been there done that. Had to do exactly as you described with a mortgage and two kids, wife no worky....................

Certainly not the best way to enter a domestic airline, didnt like it but did it. Hopefully one day we can change these requirements such as paying for endorsements etc. I wouldnt hold your breath though.

What ever you decide, with who ever you decide, I hope it goes well.

Regards,

Servo

[Capt Basil Brush]

If you have annual leave - take it, and do the endorsement while on leave. It will also help with your tax deduction. If you dont have leave owing, and you have a good boss, see if he/she will give you leave without pay while doing the rating, go back for a few days and then resign officially after you have done the rating.

At the moment VB dont have training wages, it's full pay from day 1, which is after you have done the rating and the "pay check" in the sim.

bullamakanka I would have thought a training wage for a year would be better than forking out 30+K after tax upfront?? You must really enjoy that Dash? (and no, I dont agree with paying for training)

[PCFlyer]

Has anyone gone overseas to do their type rating? (even before getting an interview)

It seems to be cheaper in the USA.

Any complications with doing this?

Any thoughts?

[DUXNUTZ]

The yanks have a thing about foreigners doing training over here..post 9/11. Lots of paperwork and fingerprinting etc.

[Yusef Danet]

OS type rating should not be necessary with the three training providers competing for your dollars. If you can't show a type rating on something above 5700kg, don't even consider the US, Homeland Security won't let you.

By the time you factor in airfares, accom and the inevitable dicking around that the US visa process will provide, it's highly unlikely that the trip will be justified.

Consider also: all three provider here will teach to Virgin Blue standards, which you will have to demonstrate some knowledge of in your 'pay check'. Where deficiencies are noted, lines of communication are open between the training providers and Virgin.

As for Emb, very few if any FOs will see the inside of the Singaporean sim. The Bris box should be up and running before the 190s get here, and the first batch of 170s will essentially be flown by checkies/trainers and new line capts until then. Aim Boeing anyway.

[Yusef Danet]

At least my middle name isn't Hussein...

















...(any more)

[Capt Basil Brush]

any more what, Mohomed? (spelling?)

[bullamakanka]

Capt BB,

Yes you are right, it would be better to pay the endo pre tax rather than from nett income. I guess I was hoping there may be minimal endo cost or bonding as this was being discussed recently with the intro of the new VB EBA. A training wage combined with a deduction from your gross pay is a step in the right direction though.

Yeah the dash is a great machine to get around in. Goes well and the flying is not to bad.

Have a good one!

Bulla

[G.A. Boy]

With slots virtually unavailable at either Alteon or QANTAS until early next year, and with successful VB candidates banking up while interviews still happening, how will the majority obtain their type ratings? Guess a large percentage will have to go OS?

[Chris Higgins]

If they really want to spend money, they could split training between simulators and the aircraft. We actually did that for the Jetstream 41 intro back in 1995 at Trans States. We did something like a 50/50 ride.

It made more time available for the only simulator that existed for a short time.

[MR. PROACH]

As a British passport holder, it took around 30 days for the US background check to come through for me (but I had lived in the US for some time).

If your passport is UK or Aus, I would guess the process is somewhat straight forward.

With 737 types available at US$5,000 I would suggest you look into it - seems a lot better than AUS$30k!!

Thanks to all posting valuable info here. Good luck to all applicants, and remember; most airlines bond or reduce first year pay.

[downwind]

guys,

this company might do it for your NG course
http://www.fsctraining.nl/