Was it a MAYDAY at EDI?

[G-CPTN]

An aircraft has had to make an emergency landing at Edinburgh Airport.
The Dash-8 Flybe plane had 36 people on board when crew members were forced to shut down one of its two turboprop engines on Monday morning.
The airport was put on full emergency alert after the plane's captain put out a mayday call at 0740 BST.
The plane, which had been travelling from Manchester, landed safely and all on board were evacuated just after 0800 BST.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6922153.stm

[rubik101]

I guess that's a YES then.

[Xeque]

I somehow doubt that it was an actual 'Mayday' - more likely to be a 'PAN'.
A Dash 8 on one donk with 36 aboard is hardly the stuff of a full blown Mayday, surely?

[Mercenary Pilot]

Is it just me or does the Dash-8 seem to have a bit of a history of precautionary engine shut downs? I think a lot of Q400 problems have been blamed on faulty sensors?

For any engine loss on a twin, I would say a MAYDAY is always appropriate.

I somehow doubt that it was an actual 'Mayday' - more likely to be a 'PAN'.

That's why you shouldn't be posting on a PROFESSIONAL pilots forum! :=

[bracebrace!]

I'd say losing one of your two available engines is a mayday. Once it's all nicely under control you can always downgrade to a PAN.

[gofer]

I was under the potentially false impression - at least following Xeque's mail - that it was the severity of the problem and thus the RISK that determines whether a Captain calls a PAN or a MAYDAY.

If Xeque is correct therefore the formula for a MAYDAY must be >(36+crew) which is thus probably >40.

The thought occurs as to whether there is a call between a PAN and a MAYDAY - and if there is - is it a PAYDAY or a PANDA. :p

On the assumption that the intermediate call is a PAYDAY - a PAN would therefore be <(pax+crew = 28) as February is the shortest month - and between pax+ crew = 28 to 31 would it be the captains call or does it just vary by month? We would also need advice as to how to handle non-western calenders ! :ugh:

[Mercenary Pilot]

I think tomorrow is PAYDAY! :ok:

[Nearly Man]

I lost an engine and I never made the bloody BBC :( Looks like I'll have to try something else, hmmm!! Yes, yipee, it's payday .. off to the pub :}

[jewitts]

Slow News day? it will be "pilot bites dog" next!

[Eff Oh]

Nearly Man
You lost it??? How careless can you be? Must do better next time.
PS If you still cant find it, look under the wing. You often find engines hangin around there. ;) :8 :ok: :E

[Rainboe]

The number of bottoms on seats makes no difference. If I was in that situation, MY bottom would be up there, and that, to me, in a twin that is no longer a 'twin' is a major emergency! I would want runway cleared, world to stop turning, and everyone to shaddup! OK. So some would say 'Mayday', and in the UK some would say 'Pan', but remember once out of the shores of Her Majesty's realm, probably nobody would know what the hell you meant by 'Pan Pan', so nobody is going to criticise you for saying 'Mayday!' OK? The important thing is to say something that makes everybody understand your ass is in danger and please shaddup and keep the runway clear because on one I don't want to go around under any circumstances just because some thicko is trying to delay turning off to the best exit for himself! Does that make it clear enough?

[ExSimGuy]

Does that make it clear enough?Yes, I suspect it does ;)



(sorry - couln't resist that!)

[Will Hung]

I know we've had some differences in the past RB, but I'm getting all concilliatory in old age, and I agree with you 100 %

Oh no, I've gone and posted where I'm not qualified to !!!

Now I'm in for it !!!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I certainly was involved in a fair number of engine failures with twin-jets at Heathrow and never recall a Mayday being called. In one case, in LVPs, the engine-out occurred on a go-around when the RVR dropped and the aircraft diverted to manchester on one engine!

[Kiltie]

Mercenary Pilot:
Is it just me or does the Dash-8 seem to have a bit of a history of precautionary engine shut downs? I think a lot of Q400 problems have been blamed on faulty sensors?
For any engine loss on a twin, I would say a MAYDAY is always appropriate.
Quote:
I somehow doubt that it was an actual 'Mayday' - more likely to be a 'PAN'.
That's why you shouldn't be posting on a PROFESSIONAL pilots forum!



How arrogant is that remark? Your comment "....I would say...." shows that you are basing your opinion on a feeble guess at what you think is correct, without any official guidline to support the theory.

This has been done to death before. The ICAO / JAA etc. definition of MAYDAY states "......the aircraft is in imminent danger....." or words to that effect whereas the PAN definition is of a less serious assistance-requirement. Both are printed on the web somewhere but I don't have the time to trawl for them right now.

I've had three precautionary engine shutdowns on twin engine aircraft and have always deemed the situation a PAN since I was never in IMMINENT DANGER (ie no fire etc.)

Notwithstanding the above, I am reliably informed by an ATCO that ATC's MATS reference considers any aircraft with 50% or more of power units u/s to be under a MAYDAY situation.
Yet again, pilot's and ATC's guidelines differ.

[Bagheera]

Actually ATC guidelines regarding Mayday or Pan are the same as you quoted. The ATC guideline referring to 50% power is that a full emergency should be declared. This is a direction to the emergency services as to the level of response that is required.
Just to confirm, the aircraft did declare a mayday. I for one am not going to argue. The only way at all I can see it being an issue is if you happen to be unlucky enough to have a pan aircraft and a mayday aircraft at the same time. :eek:
The Mayday call got everyones attention, woke everyone up on a monday morning and the problem was dealt with.
Sorted and everyone back to work.

[TURIN]

You could always go the whole hog....leave the wheels up and make it a PANCAKEDAY!!! :\

Nearly Man
You lost it??? How careless can you be? Must do better next time.
PS If you still cant find it, look under the wing. You often find engines hangin around there.

Ah yes the old Tech Log gag eh?

DEF. Left engine missing.

ACT. Left engine located under left wing after brief search.

The old ones are the best. :D

[WATP]

The call was most definately a Mayday!

[GreatCircle]

If I was in that situation, MY bottom would be up there, and that, to me, in a twin that is no longer a 'twin' is a major emergency! I would want runway cleared, world to stop turning, and everyone to shaddup

Exactly. Rainboe is on the money.

To me, loss of a Q400 engine puts the viability of the craft at risk and requires immediate action.

As for the poor bloke worried sick about the AFRS turning out - no doubt he'd sue if he didn't see the pretty flashing blue lights following her up the runway...

Lastly, as indicated here and in places like Avnet on these shores, Q400 has a few issues needing ironed out...

[haughtney1]

At the risk of thread creep, its a MAYDAY in my book..I don't care if any of you steely jawed Chuck Yeager impersonators are happy with a PAN, if I'm down to one servicable powerplant..thats a MAYDAY.

This whole PAN business is just a UK way of overcomplicating a situation....I suppose Nigel felt happy when he wrote the rule:hmm:

[anawanahuanana]

Just a quick one from me, not intending to offend anyone or get flamed......

I'm noticing a disparity. This thread seems to be mostly people saying a twin with 1 donk out is an emergency.

If the thread had started with a press article stating the usual "engine failed, aircraft plunged from the sky as crew wrestled for control, pax thought they were going to die" etc etc, most people would be jumping up and down saying a twin is designed to fly perfectly well on a single engine and it's not a huge deal as it's practiced in the sim all the time.

Not saying either view is right or wrong, just that the responses seem to relate directly to the article that bought about the thread......

[haughtney1]

most people would be jumping up and down saying a twin is designed to fly perfectly well on a single engine and it's not a huge deal as it's practiced in the sim all the time.

I doubt that very much......most people that post on here that are actually "IN" the industry would say that it was a serious situation, that is trained for and practiced in the sim.
Anyone that tells you that losing an engine in a twin is no big deal is
spouting bullsh1t, and if you don't believe me.......ask Nearly Man what his adrenalin levels were like after all the bells and whistles started shouting at him (you might have to buy him a pint first tho:E)

[Eejit]

Is it really that crucial which phrase is used in this scenario?

Obviously it is a serious situation, and up to the captain to decide whether the aircraft is in 'grave and imminent danger' or not in immediate danger but in a situation of urgency.

Using the word MAYDAY will not unfurl a magic blanket to whisk you and pax safely to the ground, nor does the phrase PAN PAN mean you will not be given as much priority than if you give a MAYDAY (unless it really isn't your day and somebody else is in deeper poo than you and you are then number 2)

As stated, you can always up- or down-grade the initial call

[mjtibbs]

quoting from the bbc


A Flybe spokeswoman said: "On Monday morning, Flybe flight BE7220 from Manchester to Edinburgh landed without incident at 0750 after reporting a technical fault with the aircraft.
"This resulted in a warning light showing on the control panel. Engineers are investigating the fault and the aircraft is expected to resume its normal flying pattern this afternoon.


surely after such an incident it would be grounded for more than a few hours?

[Manchester ATC]

Ok. It's up to the pilot in charge. If he calls Mayday or Pan. Nobody else may take that call.

[Thumperdown]

The Flybe company sop is that for a simple shutdown or failure of a power unit without a fire a Pan call should be made.
Therefore in accordance with the company procedure a Pan call it should have been.

[the heavy heavy]

'a simple shut down or failure' :eek:

never had on of those old boy, at the time they all felt pretty f:mad:cking worrying.

well done to the boys involved.:D

as somebody else has said it's whatever the guys on the day thought was going to get them the service and tlc they needed from all the people not in the FD.

the opinions of the arm chair experts and trivia generals are, as usual, fascinating.

[speedrestriction]

surely after such an incident it would be grounded for more than a few hours?

That depends entirely on the reason for the shutdown.

[poorwanderingwun]

Pan or Mayday... ??? Seems a pointless discussion ( Which I realise I'm now contributing to :ugh: ).. In my book it depends on what I'm flying / performance / Met / Airfield conditions etc... It's up to the guys up front it's what we're paid for and everyone else can sit back and mind their own damn business...

[Albert Driver]

The Mayday call got everyones attention

...and that's the point. You say whatever you have to to get the level of service you require in the traffic circumstances at the time.

Remember a certain Commander who got the whole world's immediate attention by saying quietly "Houston, we have a problem".

In other circumstances a Mayday might need to be prefixed by STOP TRANSMITTING. (Yes, I just shouted). It all depends.

[Bill.Martin]

This whole PAN business is just a UK way of overcomplicating a situationWithout wishing to be too pedantic, perhaps we should remember that Distress/Emergency Calls have a common heritage in both the aviation and maritime environments, and a prescribed hierarchy:
Sécurité (lowest) - important safety information
Pan-pan - emergency on board but no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself
Mayday (highest) - grave and imminent danger to life or to the vessel, requiring immediate assistanceThe "UK way" explanation doesn't quite work, since all three terms are of French origin (Sécurité is, obviously, unadjusted, Pan from "panne", and Mayday from" m'aidez") ;)

[Right Way Up]

Interesting that Flybe dictates am SOP for which call is made. I would hope that it is taken as advice, and the P1 is left to use use his nous to determine which one fits his/her situation.

[Capt. Horrendous]

From my experiences, practically speaking, both pan and mayday calls are treated the same by atc anyway, despite the semantics of the definition.

[metabolix]

Whilst I accept that an engine failure may not be the most dramatic of events, I would never describe it 'simple'. Engines don't fail / wind down of their own accord in the normal course of operation and therefore something is not right. Fuel contamination perhaps? Is the other engine likely to go quiet on me as well? Lots to think about and decisions to be made. Reducing my workload is an integral part of that and therefore, personally speaking, a Mayday would be my first call to ATC, without exception.

Only when I have established (as far as I can) that the other engine is fully operational and likely to remain so until I am safely on the ground, would I then consider downgrading to a Pan.

It's my bottom up there :)

[Finals19]

You say whatever you have to to get the level of service you require in the traffic circumstances at the time.

Exactly. Also a few other points to review once I have the aircraft stabilised and the engine secured (assuming I am not on fire, in which case the ATC call would be a no brainer...obviously)

- aircraft position (terrain, ability to hold safe airspeed and altitude)
- nature of failure, if it can be ascertained (caveat here being IF, and most of the time it can't be 100%, so this in itself means a Mayday)
- Flight conditions - IMC or VMC? Icing or not?
- anticipated performance between current position and destination or diversionary airfield.

To name but a few. IMHO, its a mayday that can if conditions dictate, be downgraded to a PAN. Whoever tells you that twins can happily fly on one engine is talking b******s or has balls of steel. Speaking personally, a catastrophic failure certainly gets the adrenaline racing - bottom line is you've lost more than 50% of available thrust and (typically) half your systems. Get priority and get it on the ground.

[Dried ears]

From my experiences, practically speaking, both pan and mayday calls are treated the same by atc anyway, despite the semantics of the definition.


So why do we bother with the difference then?

[Thumperdown]

A' simple shutdown or failure' is one not associated with another circumstance i.e fire, catastrophic failure or severe vibration etc. I would suggest through my own experience that any failure, even a 'simple' one would raise the blood pressure a bit!

The Flybe company sop in this circumstance is to make a PAN call, however, sop's are the cornerstone of a sound operation but where it is deemed.....

[old,not bold]

Funny old world, isn't it;


Whoever tells you that twins can happily fly on one engine is talking b******s or has balls of steel.

Are those who are saying that or similar on this thread the same who shot down, with huge scorn, those of us who think that operating twins over the ocean is not such a bright idea, whatever the statistics say, when the subject was addressed some time ago in a pprune thread?

Or is that a thread drift?

[haughtney1]

Just to add......try saying PAN anywhere else in the world..and listen to the response :bored:

[Finals19]

Whoever tells you that twins can happily fly on one engine is talking b******s or has balls of steel

Are those who are saying that or similar on this thread the same who shot down, with huge scorn, those of us who think that operating twins over the ocean is not such a bright idea, whatever the statistics say, when the subject was addressed some time ago in a pprune thread?[/

Err..no in a word. And my original post wasn't intended to shoot anyone in particular down but merely to add force to the statement about losing an engine. I had an engine failure on a heavily loaded twin out of an airport with sufficient terrain and a required climb gradient that put grey hairs on my head in seconds. It wasn't a nice scene. As for flying over oceans, sure no problem as long as you remember your aircraft limitations and always have an "out" if it alls goes t*ts up.

[old,not bold]

and always have an "out" if it alls goes t*ts up.Errr....precisely. Would the "out" be a good swim, if it all goes t*ts up?

Assuming that the "all" is a loss of power (partial, perhaps?) on the other side, or the alternate going out unforeseeably, or.....etc etc.. (eg damage to the nacelle on the failed side causing huge drag and a forced reduction in thrust on the other side, leading to a continual, unavoidable, loss of height. It's happened, you know.)

I know, we dinosaurs should shut up and hope that nothing ever goes wrong. We just don't understand how things work, these days.

Hmmm. We'd better get back to the thread, before everyone gets apoplexy.

[Emma1974]

As far as ATC are concerned,PAN or MAYDAY will get the same response.I will ensure the a/c ahead part like the Red Sea and you are Number 1.

What about todays emergency?I believe an HS125 had an engine failure into EDI.Was his a MAYDAY?

[Mercenary Pilot]

What about todays emergency?I believe an HS125 had an engine failure into EDI.Was his a MAYDAY?

We were advised that "a full blown emergency had been announced at EDI and aircraft were currently holding". I'm not sure what time the emergency was declared though.

BTW I started a thread in the ATC forums and found the responses to be interesting and in agreement to what most have said here.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=286235

[Older and Wider]

Ladies and Gentlemen, As far as D&D are concerned the Mayday call should afford you the Gold service from whoever is controlling you. At the same time, the ARCC will launch 2 Rescue Helis to whereever you are going in the UK (just in case). Once you downgrade or land safely then they turn around and go home for tea and medals. Do not think of the cost or the hassle to other agencies when you declare an emergency, the only consideration should be 'What could happen if I didn't declare?'
If you declare a Pan, then, once again the Gold ATC service should be provided, but the Helis stay on standby and available at a moments notice.
D&D will be assisting the operational controllers by teeing up possible diversion airfields and suchlike. For any controllers pruneing, the reason D&D need to know the POB on the aircraft with the emergency is that in the worst case scenario the SAR crews will have an idea of how many people they have to 'rescue'

[nano404]

Bit off but, am I the only one who thinks this doesn't make much sense?


"But the whole incident was stood down very quickly, all procedures were followed and everyone landed very safely."

Makes it sound as if everyone had their own plane. Anyway, just the late night me talking. Night.