lost bottle?

[str8]

Gained my PPL(H) 4 years ago in Robinson R44, flew 250+ hours, then went on to AS350 for 100+ hours...

Sold the AS350 last year after I lost a good friend in a heli accident. Driving to the airfield to get back in the squirrel, I just couldn't do it any more.

There are so many risks, so many accidents and so many deaths in the rotor world. I so long to jump in a heli again, its still in my blood, how do you guys keep going when you lose your friends and relations everyday in this industry? :confused:

[the beater]

Just as everybody else, in every other industry does.

There aren't actually that many accidents or deaths. I suppose that you do feel them more when you are in the same line of work.
I'm not sure that there are more 'risks' in this line of work than any other - there are hazards, of course - but give me the choice of this work or others that I have been involved in, and I'll take this everytime. I'm unlikely to die through falling off a roof, getting hit by a vehicle whilst changing a truck tyre on the hard shoulder, being stabbed / otherwise assaulted / etc. whilst carrying out a career as a Policeman / Fireman / Nurse etc. etc. . I am, however, more likely to be involved in a Helicopter accident than those persons that do not spend all their working lives flying in them.
I'll take the risk ( and the 85k;)) and accept that some of us are just more fortunate than others.

[skadi]

The whole life includes risks etc., f. e. how many folks are loosing their life or health every day on the streets? And you are still driving your car, bike ?
I feel more safe in the air than on the streets.
To be ironic, most people are dying in their bed and nobody cares about going to bed every evening....

skadi

[Bertie Thruster]

Sorry to read that you feel you have "lost your bottle".Try looking at it from a different angle; don't you think that simply driving to the airfield might be more risky than flying your helicopter?

I do. As a result of attending over 1800 road accidents in the last 6 years, I am now finding the drive to work more and more stressful! Dual carriageways are fine but driving on normal roads facing unknown individuals ( of unknown ability, age, mental stability, health, intoxication, etc) at a closing speeds of 100-120 mph, 2 feet away from me, is beginning to make me a little nervous!

It's a relief to get in the helicopter! (but unlike the beater, only at 47k!)

[Sliding Doors]

STR8,

The same way I drive to work each day.

I've 'lost' a couple of friends in Heli's :{
But 'lost' more friends in cars and motorcycles. Even came close to wiping myself out on a bike more than once. Didn't stop riding after the first or the second :E

In my case I stopped for a bit and then made a decision. It is always harder when the loss is 'close to home'. We have to be realistic about these things, examine the hows and whys and then try to minimise our risks. As a species we're not designed for a life with no risk.

Me. I've no plans to die due to aviation. If one day I do, rather that than not fly. Statistically the accident rate isn't high, it isn't every day. Accidents in aviation just make the headlines more than the tens of thousands who die each day worldwide by other means.

It's a hard choice, but there is no rush.

Good luck

[uncle ian]

I feel for you STR8. The stuff about it being more dangerous to drive, or ride, to the aerodrome is all very true but, perhaps this thought will help you most:-

By far the largest cause of helicopter fatalities is pilot error. The more respect you have for your life and thus for your attention to flying well and safely the less chance you have of an "accident". After 35 years at it I'm still wary of making mistakes and poor decisions. I've only had two near things beyond my control; an engine failure which resulted in a good enough landing to kill or injure none of the seven souls on board and a hi-jacking which is a suficiently bizarre event not to register on anyone's "oh ****-ometer".

Please try again.......you know there's nothing on earth to compare with it and you, and only you, can control the risks.

[g0lfer]

I thought I may have lost my bottle for flying R22s this weekend. I have 150 hours PPL(H) and about 12 in the last 28 days. While flying this weekend at 3000 feet I began to feel nervous and recognised the early signs of panic. I chanted out loud the check routine to take my mind off the fact that I could hardly turn the darn thing around to return to the field. Once decended to about 1000 feet it seemed better and a safe return landing was effected. Is that vertigo? I am pondering whether or not to continue.

[Cron]

Str8: Get it all the time on Hangliders (lots of hours) but not on Helicopters (a huge 68 hours!).

Last time it happened, a wise and 3000 hour HG pilot walked me round my rigged glider and pointed out the relative strengths of the tubes and components, he pointed out the conditions and that I had flown in such before, he asked me about my flight plan, landing options, soaring pattern and what I would do in various emergencies. He asked me to talk through what my take-off/overshoot technique would be and why.

I realised that half way through he had a look in his eye that said 'You'll be safe, you will enjoy it, you will think through any problems - you big nancy'.

And of course he was right. Talk through your next flight with someone you trust, remember to bring up those small stupid things which worry the cr*p out of use but are a breeze to the high timers, and you'll have a very enjoyable flight.

Best regards

Cron.

[Bladecrack]

golfer,
I had that feeling in an R22 a few times back when I was hour building, only had a couple of hundred hours at the time, I was up in the mountains at 3000 - 4000 feet in good sunny weather, I thought it was vertigo too, but once I decended down I felt ok again, never had that feeling in any other helicopter since, however I still avoid going up there in R22's :} Stick at it, if it happens again dont panic, you did the right thing by distracting yourself, eg talk to your passenger about the weather, views etc. and take deep breaths, you will be fine. :ok:
BC.

[Whirlybird]

I worry, all the time. Despite flying helicopters for a living, there are lots of times when I feel really nervous about it for no apparent reason. It gets worse as I get older.

Realise that it's natural. You're taking part in a potentially dangerous activity, and deep down, you know that. Sometimes no amount of rationalising will help, despite telling yourself that loads of things in life are dangerous.

When this is the case, take a couple of deep breaths to help you calm down, and then just feel the fear. It's actually only your mind playing tricks on you. The more you let your mind run you around, the more it will. If you simply feel it and say, "Oh yes, that's fear again", it'll gradually stop having such a hold on you. It's a bit like a kid being followed by shadows in the dark; if you try to avoid the shadows and pretend they're not there they get bigger and more scary; if you confront them you see them for what they are.

Flying is probably slightly more dangerous than some of the other things people have mentioned, looking at it objectively. But that's not why you're scared, or you'd never have started. You've been hiding from a shadow, which has now taken over your life. Have a look at it, and it won't have any hold over you...though thisd may take a little while, as the fear is now a habit.

Good luck; I know how it feels and it's not nice. :(

[muffin]

I hate taking my R22 up high - I went to 3000 feet once and also experienced vertigo. In my f/w aircraft I have no problem with it, just in the helicopter, so I am pleased I have found somebody else who gets the same effect. I very rarely go over 2000 feet or so in the R22 now and don't get the problem.

[Buitenzorg]

A few years ago I happened upon an article in a trade magazine, I believe it was Business & Commercial Aviation, which discussed the US Dept. of Labor annual report on the 20 most dangerous professions, measured in number of fatalities per 100,000 active practitioners of each profession. Interesting reading indeed.

For instance, law enforcement was not and had never been on that list. Big letdown for avid watchers of “Cops” and such. Neither was firefighting. But….

Pilots/navigators were in the top three every year! And this includes the vast number of supposedly very safe airline pilots! Therefore the statistics for the non-airline section of professional pilots (CFIs, crop dusters, air taxi and yes, helicopter pilots) must be terrible to get the whole profession in the top three most dangerous jobs year after year.

I was warned of this by those professional analyzers of relative risks, insurance brokers, when looking for life insurance. After several months’ searching, only Winterthur, a Swiss insurance company, was found willing to write life insurance for a professional helicopter pilot.

I keep climbing into that cockpit day after day for a – to me – very good reason: I like flying helicopters and am proud of my profession. The rational part of me, the part that compares product prices in the supermarket, is very aware that this infatuation is putting me at greater-than-average risk but submits.

Like other posters, I have lost friends to crashes. Some of them were true role models, the kind of professionals I strive to be, and their deaths confirmed to me that this occupation is risky even for the best amongst us.

str8, from your post it appears your flying was strictly for fun. If the fun has gone out of it there is NO REASON AT ALL for you to get back in the cockpit. After all the work and dedication you put into gaining your PPL and owning and running two aircraft, leaving the cockpit cannot have been an easy decision and anyone who thinks this decision classifies you as a wimp is an idiot. If, however, your life is not complete without flight, then your best support network (pardon the yoofspeak) are your fellow aviators. The most experienced instructors in particular will have gone through similar experiences and are by definition people persons, so I’d advice you to have a long private talk with the CFI you most respect.

The right decision is the one you make.

[VeeAny]

I don't know if this will help or is even relevant but here goes.

Last year as some of you know, I had a close shave (thanks to an errant engine and some clouds obscuring the ground). The full story of that is in the Scariest moment in a helo thread.

I didn't realise it had bothered me until a week later, we had arranged to borrow another aircraft of the same type for me to take the boss home.

I arrived in good time (about 2hrs early) to collect the aircraft and put my gear in it. I walked out onto the apron and as I approached the helicopter I felt quite strange, I opened the door and found myself looking for something to find wrong with the helicopter (which had been A checked by an engineer, and was in a very good state of repair as it always is). I went back into the ops dept a couple of times, trying to find a reason not to go.

I was due to depart at about 1730 (just before dark) and go to Battersea. The phone goes and we are delayed.

So now my first trip after last weeks crisis is in the dark in a machine i've flown once before and I don't want to go.

I found myself in a very strange place where I know that last weeks experience is not the norm, but the effort involved in getting back in the pilots was one of the hardest things i've ever done.

I did end up going, I took the helicopter out into the local area and just did a little bit of general handling, but i was still working very hard the

unconscious competence (I think thats what they call it) had gone, I was back flying like a 100hr PPL(don't start and argument over this I know what I mean i.e. can do it, but working hard). Get to Battersea. Sorry we are full they say , can you land on one end of the platform and shutdown (deep joy, normally no problem).

I walked into the 'Terminal' at Battersea, spotted a couple of familiar faces pretended everything was ok and calmed down.

That was the last time I had any trouble with it. I got back into the helicopter and departed Batts about half an hour later. Flew an hour and a half to destination and chatted it over with the Boss. It was good to have someone (anyone) to talk to about it.

I now understand why a lot of people recommend 'Getting back in the saddle' with someone you know or someone more experienced.

I can also appreciate why some people choose not to carry on flying after such an event.

I can genuinely say that I had no idea that I was going to feel apprehensive as I walked out the aircraft that afternoon, and If I had known I'd have gone out and done a couple of circuits with one of the boys during the week. But you do live and learn. I think my judgement was probably clouded that day, and I just didn't realise it.

If you want to chat about it, PM me and I'll bend your ear over it.

I am now very glad that i've kept doing what I do, and I do know that none of us is invincible, but a lot of the things that can go wrong you can train for and deal with when they do happen.

Thats about as honest an admission of cowardice you'll ever get from a helicopter pilot.

Builtenzorg makes a good point above, the only right decision is the one you make for you.

V.

[Old Skool]

i agree completely with Whirlybird and Buitenzorg,
we could wrap ourselves in cotton wool but life would be very boring.
The seperate thread running reminds me of another thread about vertigo, it is a more common problem than you would imagine. I think the slower speed of the r22 at alititude gives a feeling of balancing on a knife edge or a pinnacle, the faster aircraft don't give that feeling as it still looks and feels like you are moving forward. I used to shy away from 4 or 5 k, but now i get all the altitude i can.


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19283

wow 5 years ago, goodness me time flies

[the beater]

I'm surprised that any professional pilot can refer to flying (any type) as dangerous. Hazardous, yes; but dangerous?
Perhaps I'm missing something, but if I thought that I was in a 'dangerous' profession, I would (being a wimp), leave.
For now, I'll just keep dodging the hazards.:ooh:

[g0lfer]

Thanks guys for the info and opinions. We always assume we are the only person to experience such events as I did last weekend when I felt queezy at 3000 feet in the R22 but it is reassuring to know that I am not alone. Having read the views and other thread referred to I have put all thoughts of not flying again out of my head and will fly this weekend but only up to 2000 feet! Thanks everyone.

[purge98]

I'd feel queezy at anything above 10 feet in an R22 :eek::eek:

[bladewashout]

I feel safer with the height - more options and time to sort things out if anything does go wrong.

I do know about the 'panic' though - I was flying an old heap today which keeps throwing off pitch - stop paying attention for a moment and it was all over the place. The amount of friction needed to keep it steady wasn't a level I would have been happy to have on in an emergency, so you had to live with it!

BW

[crop duster]

:ooh:All of these years I thought I was just paranoid. After reading this now I know that I'm not alone. Every now and then I'll get up to 300 feet in a turn but I get back down just as soon as I can.
barryb

[Tailboom]

About 12 years ago I was flying a Hughes 300 back to South Wales at about 3500 feet when I felt like the machine tipped forward nearly verticaly down I immediatly looked at my Artificial Horizon and VSI which showed normal so I resisted pulling the cyclic back and I sat there in a cold sweat and thought lets get this heli on the ground, then I thought if I do that it will put me off going up there again ( lets face it 3500 is hardly high ) so I carried on with my flight, trying not to look out much and just flying on instuments, every now and again I had the same feeling but I just carried on at the same height eventually the feeling went.

I now regulary fly about at this height and urge my students to do the same, when you get used to being up there it feels quite normal and is a lot safer, on some occasions I have taken the R22 + the R44 to 10,000 feet it feels amazing in the R22 and if you auto down from that height you would not believe how long it takes to get back on terrafirma !!!!!!!

[Dan Reno]

For a moment, imagine the Viet Nam era helo pilots’ lot. Most every one of them has been shot at, some on a daily basis. All have had less than soft landings outside the fence with gun drawn. They saw death daily and were also the ones performing it on others. It was simply expected the pilot next to him may get the round in the head that day or they may hear of others in their unit who did on a weekly basis. And this is routine and expected. From the pan into the fire they say.

I’m curious how any in our membership who were combat military pilots handled such situations on such a frequent basis knowing full well they HAD to get back on that horse every day and face such demons since so many were counting on them for their very existence.

[rudestuff]

With 1500 hours i'm still afraid of heights - I need to be able to see ground detail in order to feel comfortable. Of course, the whole reason I switched to helicopters was to fly low...

[bigruss]

Last year in the Northern Territory over Black soil plains I was cruising at about 1'000 AGL when the R22 got caught in an updraft. The VSI indicated around the 2000 fpm mark upwards. I had the collective full down, airspeed around 60 kts. the only way i could stop it ascending any more at around 7,500 I started a steep turn and eventually it started to come down. I have around 14,000 in R22's and I have to say it put the wind up me. Nowadays I find I like to stick low before the big updrafts have had a chance to develop.

[mickjoebill]

So what are the statistics relating to injuries and fatalities for helicopters?

I guess the only one stat that is reliable is number of incidents as a ratio to registered aircraft, giving a pecentage of aircraft that are involved in an incident.

Accidents per hours in the seat is an eductated guess?


Mickjoebill

[Tailspin Tommy]

str8,

I can understand your desire to park the helicopter. I've thought about doing the same from time to time. I started flying at 19, in US Army flight school. Flew under-powered UH-1C and slightly under-powered AH-1Gs in Vietnam in 68 and 69. Back then, the military training was good, but nothing like is taught these days. We needed a lot of sand-bags to fill seats between 68 and 72.

I had a couple of my colleagues take rounds and few went down. There are too many war stories to mention, but the main point I have is we tended to find an excuse for the other guy dying and not us. None of it made sense, but it helped us to strap the helicopter on the next day and keep going.

Hangar talking. I think most pilots in the war survived and had less problems after the ward because we were able to come back to the base at the end of the day, and have a beer or twenty with the other pilots. We'd talk through our fears. We'd never show fear (or thought we weren't) to the others, but talking though the day's activities made us get our problems on the table. On our time off, we used to train or try out new techniques to keep us from getting into a problem from previous days. You might give that a try with the other helicopter drivers you used to hang with.

If you do go back to flying, concentrate on your job:
Know your aircraft,
Ensure that your aircraft is mechanically sound,
Understand what your mission is for the day, plan it and stick to it,
Train as much as you can. That includes reading magazines, asking questions of mechanics (engineers) older and younger pilots, attend seminars (even local ones where other pilots in your area get together and talk about local problems, flight techniques, etc).
When flying, give 100% to situational awareness. Know where you are 3 dimentionally, where the obstructions are and other aircraft.

If you concentrate on the threats, the presumed risk of flying, you are not concentrating on your job and you will fail (I.e. screw up, crash, etc.)

I got out of flying helicopters in 88, but flew corporate fixed-wing until 91 then got into accident investigation work. Some one asked about statistics. Helicopters tend to have accidents because they do jobs that fixed-wing cannot do. Fixed-wing need nice runways and have plenty of room to do their job. Accident rates vary with the tpye of job. Seismic is a higher risk than flying offshore. The offshore industry is slowly coming aronud to introducing equipment, increased traiing, and working with the aircraft manufacturers to improve handling qualities and reducing pilot workload. The airline industry started same process over 30 years ago.

But, it still comes down to the individual pilot to put it all together. I flew for a couple of bad operators in the fish and game and forest-fire suppression business in the mid-70s making $500 a month and no expenses. There are still operators like that around, and they usually do not believe in all the training or fancy equipment installation.

If you run into a fixed-wnig driver who bad-mouths helicopters pilots, just remember that you are in an elite group of professionals and tell them that the differance between a fixed-wing pilto and a helicopter pilot is that a fixed-wing pilot always wanted to get into aviation, but didn't have the b.. courage to try.

You'll make the correct decision for yourself. Good luck in life.

[g0lfer]

Well guys, i flew again today thanks to the encouragement from you all. While I did not start this thread, it has shown me that most heli pilots have experienced fear. As I climbed thru 2000 feet today I got the same giddy feelings so kept it below that level with no problem. I will keep stretching the envelope until I can fly at 5000 feet no problem. Thanks for all the advice.
p.s. Whirlybird: I faced my fears as you recommended.

[KNIEVEL77]

Well i'm struggling badly to relax at the moment while in flight but reading all of these posts has definately helped.

[bolkow]

eddie1, you seriously need to have a word in the ear of the dispatcher that sends you and your heli to individuals who have had speeding encounters with trains! Seriously.

[FlightPathOBN]

I'm surprised that any professional pilot can refer to flying (any type) as dangerous. Hazardous, yes; but dangerous?

Concur...

(toned this down...sorry)

[vaibronco]

(hazardous makes you cautious, dangerous makes you afraid )

I believe this was just a misunderstanding, the choice of a word instead of another.
Playing with words is spectacular, but who the hell can fly for years thinking all the day "maybe I'm about to die". It happened to me for a limited time, minutes or seconds. Not all the day.

I only have few hours more than one thousand, but I feel
much more comfortable when flying with our ten years old BK well serviced by the experienced engineers and flown by an experienced captain,
than when I drive home at the end of the week.

I'm happy to work with a team that never break the rules. FM, MEL, Weather, Procedures, everything. If it is "no go", than we don't go. Aware that anything could happen anyway.

But no matter how cautious I am when driving, cycling or riding my motorbike, nothing can protect me from someonelse's mistake on the road. No emergency procedure most of times. Now I have two kids, that's why my motorbike is sleeping since 2006.

By the way, out of thread, I love flying with an experienced captain. When I was alone on a R44 Astro with my boss, flying all the country, nobody was there to teach me anything. Only my (sometimes scaring) mistakes.

Finally, till the moment you feel safe, and If you have this option, bring with you your "life insurance" and keep on learning. Could be a FI or a retired pilot...
Sorry about my english.

[KNIEVEL77]

I found this link on another part of pprune, it is an outstanding article regarding Pilot Anxiety, I really never knew it was so common.

http://www.hampshireplans.co.uk/AOPA/article.pdf