Korean Air Expat Contract [Archive]

Poster

30th Jul 2007, 07:35

A word of advise for those interested in this contract. The working conditions are less than attractive as mentioned by the contract agencies. This is why KAL is having trouble retaining and recruiting Pilots.

The $$$s have not been updated in the last 7 years and with the value of the USD weakening daily against most of the currencies
there is no protection against currency exchange in the contract.

There is a rumour that the company is considering raising the salaries in all fleets so they can keep their pilots and interest more applicants. I believe when I see it!

Once you join, the training you will receive will puzzle the most avid and intelligent aviator. Very inmature local Instructors on check mode will demand knowledge of nice to know things and will take you on a trip of guilt and humilliation. They will love to see you lower your head and admit how great they are. Pretty sad.

Rosters are built in an unfair way compared to the local Pilots with no credit for positioning, scheduled flying time over 100 hrs and not getting full credit on it when more than 2 pilots are on board. No overtime is paid even though you work over the 75 hour production limit.

Now about the honesty of the employer....the contract is violated continuosly depending in who and how it is interpreted. It is a cultural thing.

About the people joining as F/Os.... I can not believe there is anybody wanting to go through this experience. Local Captains will give them a quick course on the Korean culture.

The real story has to be told!

roughrider747

30th Jul 2007, 18:55

Interesting post, I am guessing you are speaking from experience, you are the first person I have heard complain about Korean for some time. How exactly are they violating your contract, are you a captain or an F/O.

flyguykorea

31st Jul 2007, 04:32

Seems a little like sour grapes. Talking from 7 years experience, your post sounds typical of those who come here expecting KAL to be your typical NWA or Polar or Atlas. Of course, it's not and those who come thinking it is, are usually in for a hard time.

KAL having a hard time retaining pilots??? Mostly the only ones leaving are the Canadians who are affected by the new tax regulations coming into effect next year.

There are always two sides to the story...

ELAC

31st Jul 2007, 05:15

KAL having a hard time retaining pilots??? Mostly the only ones leaving are the Canadians who are affected by the new tax regulations coming into effect next year.

Not entirely true ... of the most recent departees only two were Canadians living in Canada. One was a Canadian resident in Ireland (not subject to the tax issue), one was a Brit and one was an Aussie ... and then there was the senior Korean LCP too. There are more lined up and ready to pull the pin.

Korean Air is losing pilots and they are worried about it.

Poster

31st Jul 2007, 07:50

ELAC is correct....KAL is having problems retaining and attracting Pilots. The purpose of the post is to make people aware that the job is not what the contract agencies are advertising.

Things will not change while there is people like FGK at KAL, who keep their pink sunglasses on and takes the abuse and the lack of respect in reverse gear with the gate open. Sour grapes? I don't think so...prefer the Merlot or Shiraz.

stator vane

31st Jul 2007, 13:06

of course without names and phone numbers---

but the only proper way to evaluate is to hear some specifics.

the contract i have received to consider, does not address the exact flight schedules, routes etc. so i can't really expect a proper roster like we have now in the UK.

i was with asiana 96-98 and yes, one must learn to say, "thank you very muchee. i didn't know that" and the actual flight rosters were a bit sporatic, but nothing very hard to deal with, (i was on the 737). quite a few over nights, with pretty minimum rest but the food was good and free.

as far as immature instructors/checkmen---i have seen those in the USA,Belgium and now the UK. there appears to be a constant percentage of "weeds" among the flowers.

i received an "A" rating from one Korean checker and next time i received a "C" with comments written in Korean on the check form. and i have had the same range from US,BEL and UK checkers.

and as for the pilots we flew with, the same--many are genuinely glad to meet you and fly with you whilst others let you know in no uncertain terms, that they wished you were not there. funny i had the same in the US,BEL and now in the UK.

they do indeed appear to be very interested in getting pilots to come over there, even on the 737.

i would be curious to know if any Koreans could come on here and tell us what they know about the present situation.

Tintin

31st Jul 2007, 15:23

jeez i like fair and balance talk like that ...something rare nowadays

Poster

31st Jul 2007, 20:21

Newcomers, you have all been made aware.

roughrider747

31st Jul 2007, 22:31

you still never told me how exactly korean violated your contract, and I'm guessing that you are still at KAL, why?

speedtwoten

18th Aug 2007, 05:55

I'm invited for interview for the NG throught CCL by end of August:D, anyone have any idea how is it look like their Medical, Simulator and interview:ok: please give/share the information I need the job:ugh:

stator vane

18th Aug 2007, 10:24

you should be able to get some charts from CCL-

study them and you will see that the VOR approach requires a rather steep descent close in, so if you simply think ahead, configure early on the downwind leg, get fully configured early, so that with the steep descent, you will not get a config induced sink rate warning, otherwise, it is a piece of cake.

then they will have an engine failure, simply comply with the headings, level offs etc. and the usual go around etc...nothing that is not in the boeing FCTM.

then they will ask you for a close in visual approach, just like given in the boeing FCTM, 2 miles abeam, etc. my first visual was a long stretched out affair, aiming to turn in at the marker, since most airlines never want to see you do a short close in visual. they stopped the sim, and told me i needed to do a close in. so we tried it again and made it though not a pretty sight. but i always had control of the aircraft. and that's whats they are really looking for. if you are going to err, make it on the side of safety.

they will ask you to bring your own QRH and use your SOP's--and they most likely are very similar world wide. but with little quirks here and there and different verbage at various times.

the interview was alone in front of 5, (i think) one american and the others Koreans. very stern looking, but don't let that scare you. be open and communicate clearly. a question about QNH and QNE--i really can't remember. but a no brainer really. (their transition altitude is 14000 feet, but that wasn't the question) a question or two about CRM, how would you get along with Korean culture, etc, your flying experience, why did you leave so and so, why do you want to come here and eat funny food---(i really like some of their food) etc. must have lasted all of 5 to 10 minutes. when in rome, do as the romans---be courteous and respect the positions of the individuals involved. do not be artificial.

my father taught me a long time ago with the back of his hand, to respect the position, in spite of your attitude toward the individual in the position. and i really haven't found any reason to change that perspective. and i suppose, i'm gullible enough to assume that the one in any position deserves my respect until they prove otherwise. that goes for checkairmen, (especially when they are holding the ink pen and the check form), and all the way up the ladder to a prostitute.

the medical is an all day affair and that is where the fall out usually occurs. they test things that you didn't know you had. and use machines that you will not seen anywhere else. the peripheral vision test is the most difficult thing i have done--in staying awake and keeping your eye open. never seen it except in Korea.

then they take a photo of the back of your eye with a light so bright you can feel it hit the back of your eye and you are blind for a couple of weeks!!! ha.
they take blood and poke things, sonogram, ears, eyes to the tenth power. urine, and you have to be hungry!!!!

you either make the medical or not. all westerners have high cholesterol (sp)
and have one foot in the grave, are overweight etc---so the only thing you could do is lose some weight and don't eat anything you enjoy for a few weeks before the tests!!!!

that is the one downer about the whole affair to my mind, that in house Korean medical every six months!!!

i am still debating with myself as to whether i will actually go there or not.
when you go, and are in the hotel, order the "beebimbap" and be sure to tell them to put the hot sauce in a separate dish so that you can control how much flame will be coming out through your ears!!! a delicious dish. but DO NOT ORDER IT ON THE AIRCRAFT on the way over!!!!

in my opinion, the Koreans have an ability to focus and a self discipline that deserves respect from anyone. look what they have accomplished after their country was entirely destroyed in the 50's in a struggle between the Russians and the americans which later included the Chinese. they are on the same level with all other countries in europe.

worth a try and if you look and listen, you will learn something and will be a better person for spending some time there.

speedtwoten

18th Aug 2007, 12:45

stator vane, THANKS YOU !!! for the info, it will for sure a lot of help for me:ok:hope I will made it, are with them now??? CCL haven't give me the chart but only the profile, I will ask them again THANKS A LOT

ELAC

18th Aug 2007, 12:54

speedtwoten ...

Take it from someone who knows ... if you don't like the way you are treated in India you aren't going to last 6 months in Korea.

ELAC

speedtwoten

18th Aug 2007, 13:05

so, ELAC tell me whats the problems with Korea???:confused:, I'm still here in my home:ok:, India is too far away to fly there after information that I got from many friends flying there it is too riski :\the only choice Jet Airways or Spice Jet, which manage by expats, not locals:E

Rough Rider ask the same question:ugh:

ELAC

18th Aug 2007, 13:28

speedtwoten ...

I can't speak for whichever airline you may have had experience of in India but in general you will be treated with far more courtesy and respect by your employer, your coworkers, and people in general in India than is the case in Korea.

Both countries have their safety problems so you will be no further ahead there, though the Korean's will seem more organized about it at first. Once you appreciate the nature of the beast you will find as much to worry about in Korea as in India.

In Korea your roster will be much less subject to change than in India ... to the point that it is set in concrete. Do not ever expect it to change in response to a personal need as the concept of flexibility does not really exist at Korean Air.

Any place can be what you choose to make of it, but having watched expats adapt in both Korea and India and having done so in both places myself I can tell you that Korea is by far the less pleasant and less tolerant of the two. If you find yourself complaining about life as an expat in India, the odds are you will find yourself truly miserable in Korea.

ELAC

speedtwoten

18th Aug 2007, 14:29

ELAC, thanks I will think about it:), but one thing's sure in the otherside if you ever in India then I believe you will regret it:=, all expats who's been with the airline (Air Sahara/Jet Lite) I worked they all leave:\

ELAC

18th Aug 2007, 14:39

speedtwoten ...

I am in India, though not working for Air Sahara/Jet Lite. I have no regrets here and wouldn't consider a return to Korea for a second.

ELAC

speedtwoten

19th Aug 2007, 05:43

Thats fine, if you like it, but you must working with Spice or Jet Airways, as your rating concern B737 so they all manage by expats;) but if you looking surrounding you could you image if you are manage by them:ugh:

ELAC

19th Aug 2007, 06:18

In the company I work for I've had no particular problem with managers of either Indian or expat origin. Every place has its culture and there is a particular flavour to the way things get done in India, but it is nothing, and I do mean absolutely nothing, when compared to the way things are managed in Korea.

In Korea it will often take an eternity for a decision to be made simply because no one wishes to be held responsible for making a decision in the first place. If and when a decision is made, regardless of the logic of the decision, that decision will stand forever and will not change. Changing a decision in Korea is not viewed as an adjustment to meet practical reality but rather an admission of error with an accompanying loss of face. And that, my friend, is something that a Korean manager will avoid at all costs, including the termination of your job if that happens to be the most expedient way to solve the problem.

I'm sure there are plenty of better places in the world to hang your hat than in India with Sahara/Jet Lite. All I can tell you is that it's pretty long odds that Korean Air is one of those places.

ELAC

BANANASBANANAS

19th Aug 2007, 07:33

Just a personal opinion, but based on the impression I got of KAL, and feedback I have received from guys I know there - and others who went thru the selection process - I have decided not to join KAL.

But I do know people who are happy there.

speedtwoten

19th Aug 2007, 13:34

"Changing a decision in Korea is not viewed as an adjustment to meet practical reality but rather an admission of error with an accompanying loss of face" ELAC, that is something that they don't have here in India you may be use to it, "I call you back in two minutes" or "give me a second" or "it's coming" they use to say something in the morning and change it within 2 hours without shame they still able to see your face after lying, in Air Sahara/Jet Lite they even have no roster, it is done by call you mobile at any time:{

BANANABANANAS, I think you are in SINGAPORE people there are nothing to compare with people in INDIA, try to get a job here then go to South Korea, than you can tell the diferences

ELAC

19th Aug 2007, 13:50

speedtwoten ...

I'll leave it to you to discover which of those two charcteristics you find you like less. Perhaps you'll just have to experience the other to figure it out for yourself.

But perhaps I don't entirely understand your problem in India. Does it really matter that much if they change whatever flights you fly on a given day? What matters to me is whether the airplane is safe, the money is on time and the leave days add up to what I'm entitled to. Most of the rest, particularly what flights I do on what day when I'm away from home don't really matter that much at all, at least not to me.

Anyway, if rosters that don't change are your priority, you will enjoy Korea. Just remember that when you spend your 21st day looking at a Korean "snack pack", have the infamous "red dot" on your forehead and are looking at a 10% outside of contract "haircut" to help fund your Korean colleagues' new sets of outstation golf clubs, all conveniently located at stations that you on the NG will never see.

Have fun,

ELAC

The Dominican

19th Aug 2007, 16:09

ELAC

19th Aug 2007, 17:49

They treat expats so terribly in India and Asia don't they? Here is an Idea, go back to your country and get paid well and treated better at airlines that don't change their schedules and don't lie to you

I hate to burst your bubble sunshine, but airlines all over the world lie to you, neither India nor Korea has a monopoly on that particular product. And changing schedules ... no that never happens in good old KMSP now does it? Remind me again, how many guys is NW short this summer because they laid too many pilots off? And you want to talk about not screwing with a guy's schedule!

As for pay ... well to be honest there's nobody where your from, or where I'm from, prepared to pay close to the same net $$ that my background commands on the expat market without a wait of 30 years or so. But, if you do know of a carrier that gives that sort of a pay bump for walking in the door with 10,000 odd in PIC time on transport jets please tell me, I'm all ears.

To be honest, I'm quite content with where I'm at and who I'm working for, though I do thank you for your kind hearted and warmly intended career advice.

Regards,

ELAC

The Dominican

19th Aug 2007, 18:24

Exactly, thanks for making my point since it seemed that you are just too smart for your own good and totally missed the sarcasm, sunshine.
They do make you cut your hair hum?, those bastards

ELAC

19th Aug 2007, 19:01

totally missed the sarcasm
Wow, it must not have been that good in the first place if it was totally missed. Still, whichever point you were so deftly trying to make I'd suggest you are contributing the square root of SFA to the point of the thread.

The fellow is not happy in India and wants to go to Korea. As someone who has spent time in both places I can at least offer an opinion, subjective as it may be, about the merits of either place, which may be of use to the guy.

Just curious, what can you offer him aside from a sampling of your finely honed wit?

ELAC

The Dominican

19th Aug 2007, 23:58

Just curious, what can you offer him aside from a sampling of your finely honed wit?

Not to take advise from a whiner

So long Tinkerbell

speedtwoten

20th Aug 2007, 08:25

ELAC, if you are in India, please read Times Of India news paper of today and August 9, than you'll see what happen actually with Air Sahara/Jet Lite:), if you are talking about safe airplane to fly, they who were flying for that company only saved by GOD like I ever before:ugh:, thanks GOD I left that place. and those in DGCA doesn't bother at all even for their toilet in their building are treated the same like they treated the aviation in India:\

ELAC

20th Aug 2007, 08:40

ELAC, as someone considering this contract can you be specific about whether or not the contractual terms are respected?

Your post insinuates much but its not clear to me exactly what you mean regarding the 10% haircut and the 21st day.

Doug,

I'm not really much for getting into a long story of all the ways that Korean Air arbitrarily changed contract terms, but it did happen, and with some regularity. In my time I experienced things such as an involuntary one year 10% pay cut (the aformentioned haircut), the institution of a policy that revoked vacation days earned in any month where one reported sick for even 1 day, a reclassification of travel benefit ticket classifications making the tickets very difficult to obtain and attempts to change the duty travel seat accommodations. Those four are the first that come to mind, but there were others too.

The 21st day simply refers to the fact that your standard work rotation will be about 3 weeks, and in the case of the B737 that will be 3 weeks of mostly domestic or China flying and hence a lot of "snack packs" to enjoy.

My advice with respect to Korean Air is simply that it is a very challenging employment environment in a great number of ways and that someone looking in that direction expecting an improvement versus how they are treated as an expat in, for example, India is likely to be in for a rude shock. If you are adaptable you can adjust to most of what goes on at KE, but it is unlikely you will ever find it very enjoyable as opposed to simply the necessary means to other ends.

ELAC

ELAC

20th Aug 2007, 09:24

Not to take advise from a whiner

So long Tinkerbell

Hmmm, I must have missed the whining part. But as you have no actual knowledge or experience of either Korea or India, really, how would you know?

I guess ad hominem shots are about all that you've got to offer as an ex-US regional guy who is less than 6 months into his first overseas contract flying the heavy metal in Japan. When you've spent a few years doing expat work, particularly in Korea, maybe you'll have something of value to contribute, but right now, judging from your other posts, you know diddley about the life of an expat captain. In fact, you haven't even made it out to the line yet, now have you?

Best of luck, Peter Pan!

PS - I suggest you start studying Japanese criminal law as it applies to aircraft operations. You are not in Kansas any more Toto. Just ask the Garuda DC-10 Captain or the JAL MD11 Captain how they much they enjoyed the experience of having an EF at V1 or a turbulence/autopilot incident while in Japan.

ELAC

20th Aug 2007, 17:51

Wow. Did the arbitrary changes stick or was the contract successfully defended? How does a 10% haircut get summarily applied when you have a contract?

Doug ...

Contract? Defended??? There is no such thing in much of the expat world. A contract is just a legal fiction to make you happy. For the most part the terms are only enforceable to the degree that the company is willing to comply with what they've agreed to. Just for your interest (and for that of certain others who might think I dream this stuff up) I've copied portions of an email I recieved from my contracting company regarding the leave days issue that neatly sums things up. Have a laugh while you read it.

Our 10% pay cut stuck for 10 months, even as the company posted profits during those quarters. Our Korean colleagues were asked to take a similar cut but refused. They, of course, have a union and the right to strike once a year, every year. At the end of the year in question the company spent approx. $500,000 to buy 100 sets of new golf clubs, primarily for use by our colleagues who did not have to take a forced cut in pay.

I'll leave it to you to imagine how well this went down with those of us who were out of pocket. I'll also leave it to you to decide who you want to consider trusting ... the airline? the contracting company?

Good luck with your career decisions,

ELAC

Dear Captain XXXX,

Last month, KAL asked YYYYYY to sign an Amendment to the Agreement between the two companies which is, in turn, the basis for the contract between YYYYYY and its contracted pilots.

The amendment covered a couple of issues; Annual Leave and the Annual Cost of Living review.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A. Regarding Annual Leave KAL has proposed the following:

"1) Each captain shall be entitled to annual leave only after successfully finishing KAL’s initial route-training.

2) Each captain’s annual leave shall accrue at two (2) days per month for every month of Full service. However, no month with sick leave or duty violation shall accrue any annual leave.

3) Any captain shall not take his annual leave more than seven (7) days in any one month."

We have now given two detailed responses to this proposal explaining the obvious objections and the potential problems such a change would cause. Korean Air is arguing that the amendment is not a change but the clarification of some ambiguity that existed in the original contract.

We have not signed the Amendment, but in their latest letter they have suggested this is their final position and they will implement the changes whether we sign or not. However, we have written again to KAL asking them to reconsider.
...
Annual Review Ammendment
...
Unfortunately the amendments for Annual Leave and Annual Review are combined. We have asked KAL to split the Amendment into two separate amendments so that we could send the change on annual review to you separately, to see if it would be acceptable. We have not yet received a reply from KAL as to whether they are prepared to do this.

As stated before, we have not signed this Amendment (although KAL have indicated that other agencies have) but KAL has now indicated that they will implement these policies regardless and have advised that,

“As our top management stands firm on the implementation, we have no other avenue but to apply this to all the captains based on the original contract, but we'd like to do it with your agreement, if possible.”

Since receiving that statement we have again written to KAL explaining in more detail why we believe their new position on these issues is wrong. However, based on their most recent correspondence, we are now concerned that we will be unable to change their decision.

We will inform you of any new developments on these issues.

Best regards,

YYYYYY

Round D. Globe

20th Aug 2007, 19:17

ELAC

Just a thought.. If KAL is firm on their "ammendment" to your present contract- the one you originally signed with them via whomever your contracting company is. Does that not declare your contract with KAL
null and void?

I would think that should free you up to tell them to piss off and go else where. Just curious.

RDG

ELAC

20th Aug 2007, 19:48

RDG ...

It's sort of an interesting question in that Korean Air asserts that it has the unilateral right to modify a contract between yourself and the contracting company which it is not even a direct party to. The contracting company simply states that they are obliged to change terms in accordance with their master contract with Korean. Of course they don't have that right within the contract they signed with you, but unless you are prepared to go to Vanuatu or wherever to try and get the thing enforced that really doesn't mean anything anyway.

This particular email dates from 2003 when I was still working for Korean Air. You may recall that the job market then was not quite as it is now and telling them to go piss up a rope (no matter how well deserved) was not not an immediately actionable response. I'm now much more happily employed elsewhere. I've attached the email simply as a concrete example of what the value of a Korean contract is for those considering the position.

ELAC

Round D. Globe

20th Aug 2007, 21:03

ELAC

I see, thank you. I was pondering joining KAL the 330 DEC contract but am still not sure.

I would like to hear from anyone currently on any KAL DEC contract with a US base.

Please can anyone tell me if they (KAL) have been keeping their end of the bargain- are you getting any time at home in the U.S. -pay and commuting details are as advertised, etc.

Any truthful info is appreciated

RDG

ELAC

20th Aug 2007, 22:10

RDG ...

I speak with Korean Air pilots on pretty much a daily basis. For the most part KAL are keeping their word at the moment, but as per the above that can change at any time. I say most part in that though the contract allows for 9 days off and 2 vacation days per month crew shortages have forced the company to cut monthly days off allowed to 6 (which is technically allowable, but until recently had never been done) mostly on the B777.

Salary and commuting details will be as advertised, but watch out for the things like what exact ticket code those four confirmed FOC tickets per year are. Where I lived only 4 seats or so per flight from my station were allowed on that code and those seats were open to all employees, so if I wanted to use my FOC tickets I had to book them 9 months in advance.

Also, I wouldn't expect too much action on an A330 application just yet. They have been advertising for a year, but they have yet to hire a single new expat on the A330, and to my knowledge have not yet interviewed one either. That may change soon, as there are a number of A330 guys itching to get out, but if they do, doesn't that tell you something too? It might be better to figure out where they are headed instead of filling the hole where they have have been.

ELAC

Round D. Globe

20th Aug 2007, 22:37

Indeed it does tell me something and I thank you for the info.

I was hoping for the 777 contract but the 330 was the one the head hunters from OZ were selling. Might be a while before Ihear anything if at all.

Thanks again ELAC.

RDG

ELAC

20th Aug 2007, 22:51

RDG

What type are you currently flying?

ELAC

PS - Avoid the Antipodean outfit like the plague ... if you deal with anybody it should be John Hitch at CCL. He has a track record of being straight in a very crooked business.

galdian

21st Aug 2007, 00:36

ELAC
Great posts from someone who has been there, got the T shirt!

From my limited exposure via training in Korea there are other places I would look at first for a number of reasons - just my personal perspective.

Regarding contractors there are at least 3 from the downunder region (Euro, IAC, Rishworth) who are touting along with at least another 4 around the world.
Does your comment relate solely to the organisation who use the laws of a remote island in the S. Pacific??

Cheers

Round D. Globe

21st Aug 2007, 00:56

Yes indeed ELAC, thanks again for the posts.

It's great to get facts and knowledge of experience when one is trying to make a big decision.

Check your PM's when you get a chance.

RDG

ELAC

21st Aug 2007, 07:51

galdian ...

I dealt with one of the three and they left a particularly bad taste in my mouth. Friends dealt with the other two with similar results. There is plenty of info on PPRuNE regarding contract violations and legal actions with regard to one of these outfits in particular, but the level of integrity is pretty much the same from any of them. The only contracting company that I know to be considered upright is CCL, though there are some newer players that may be ok too.

Doug ...

Re the haircut, nobody left immediately because there was no place to go at the time. Since then, well let's just say that KAL's decision to hire non-type rated pilots is not exactly a coincidence. As for hoping that the contracts get more respect now, not a chance. There will likely be a continuous little chipping away to whatever terms you think you have along with the occasional big bite (a la the haircut) when it is deemed necessary. When it comes to Korean Air and contracts the only valid approach is the cynical one.

ELAC

galdian

21st Aug 2007, 11:32

ELAC
Thanks for that.
Amused only because I remember when I had to choose an agency, upon telling the other I had decided to use ?????? the response was "...I am disappointed you chose not to use the best contract agency!"

I am sure PARC must be terribly, terribly mortified that you apparently place LLC (do they have a website yet??) above themselves. :eek:

Hurried Disclaimer: above very much in jest ( :E ), might need a position through PARC one day.
(actually a lovely, lovely bunch of people!) :ok:

galdian

21st Aug 2007, 12:33

Sorry, bit of an oversight, my humblest apologies.

Just wondering if The Dominican had any further thoughts to add?? :)

Round D. Globe

21st Aug 2007, 14:10

ELAC wrote:

" if you deal with anybody it should be John Hitch at CCL"

ELAC
I called him. Seems like a sharp guy, nice change of pace. Hope to work with him. Thanks

RDG

ELAC

21st Aug 2007, 15:59

I am sure PARC must be terribly, terribly mortified that you apparently place LLC (do they have a website yet??) above themselves.

galdian,

Actually, Parc was never involved with Korean during my time there so I can't say anything for them yea or nae. If they are now recruiting for KE then they would certainly be worth considering before any of the 3 dununnda outfits mentioned earlier ... and that's the skinny on that :yuk:

ELAC

Round D. Globe

21st Aug 2007, 18:14

I have (and still) work with PARC since '99 and I have always been paid on time and have even used the insurance they had provided on a contract back in '01. If they were involved on the KAL job I would go through them as well, unfortunately, they are not due to exsisting business with the other Korean carrier.

If someone is looking at a contract somewhere the PARC is a part of, I'd say use them.

RDG

The Dominican

21st Aug 2007, 23:06

Just wondering if The Dominican had any further thoughts to add??

Nope, Elac beat me to a pulp.:ouch: It sounded like sour grapes for a while but some objectivity started to shine through, although I would like to know if there are more recent experiences than 2003 since there is a good friend that has been offered a position at KAL

ELAC

21st Aug 2007, 23:59

Nope, Elac beat me to a pulp. It sounded like sour grapes for a while but some objectivity started to shine through, although I would like to know if there are more recent experiences than 2003 since there is a good friend that has been offered a position at KAL

The Dominican,

Accept my apologies, I probably reacted too harshly earlier on.

I worked at KE until 2005, so my observations are valid to that point. From speaking to friends nothing much has changed in the mean time, save that they are now critically short of pilots.

I'd suggest that your good friend think carefully, and talk to the guys with a number of years in at KE, before accepting a position there. It's not all bad, but unless he has previous experience with Korea he may be in for a rude awakening when his line training starts.

Enjoy Japan,

ELAC

speedtwoten

22nd Aug 2007, 05:25

ELAC, after reading all your information I do understand thats the way our life as an EXPAT pilots:), if you are in India you must be knew from the local news paper how bad is Air Sahara management, even now the top managements from Jet Airways has difficulty to change the behaviour of Air Sahara employers:\, and looking to other sides I have friends working for KAL since more than 14 years starting from F28 and now B744, they have no complaint at all,:ok: actually there is nothing wrong with India:ok:, only bad luck for me was I'm joinning the wrong company and wrong agent (Brookfield Aviation) and I can't change that unless I'm out from India for at least 1 year:bored:, because Air Sahara won't give me No Objection Certificate to joint another company within India (this the bad mentallity from the flight operation management):\ for that reason I always said it will be better if your management were expats pilot like Spice/Jet Airways:ok:, so my choice is KAL althought I tried to China before but may application has no reply at all I knew it would be not as good as you are in your own country but like I said this is the life as an EXPAT pilots

ELAC

22nd Aug 2007, 13:53

speedtwoten,

I do understand the difficulties you've had with Sahara. I'm certainly glad I'm not involved in that lot, and the Indian NOC rule does make it more tricky. Good luck with Korean.

ELAC

The Dominican

23rd Aug 2007, 16:24

Accept my apologies

Thank you for saying it but there is no need. Besides, getting straightened out once in a while is a healthy thing.

Maybe off topic, but what is you folks opinion on how the contract market is shaping up? the need for pilots will increase not only for A/C orders but for a decrease of applications as our own markets are increasing the hiring. In the States for example, most majors are hiring now and not everyone would be willing to do the insane commute for current contracts and most western nations aviation markets are also turning around. Will this force the hand of contract carriers abroad to increase benefits? Evidently the contract option is more lucrative but maybe a little unstable (If there is anything stable in aviation really) will this bring better conditions besides a little more job security?

stator vane

27th Aug 2007, 21:19

they want me to come over in october...

not sure yet...

member#987

28th Aug 2007, 06:04

I got the offer to start 15 October or 3 December.

Next year's start dates are not confirmed yet.

Both above mentioned dates are not filled.

If you can give less than 3 months notice, they will be all over you.

Pay rise for the 777 to be anounced any day now.

Good luck.

filejw

28th Aug 2007, 11:41

Just ran into a guy that left my company to work for KAL and it sounds like to much sitting around in Seoul in a hotel.Thats too inefficient for me. They advertise be based any place on the system but seems to be a lot of DH from say JFK or LAX if you are from the US...I much prefer to fly my tail off and go home.And screw the DH stuff..

filejw

29th Aug 2007, 02:42

Doug, The way I read it they could base you in JFK but it would be a DH every trip to Inchon to get started. JFK is 777 or 747-400 only ... Just more time away from base...:)

serious flyer

29th Aug 2007, 03:35

Hey Fra2008, I don't know if CCL is right about the numbers, as I was offered an interview on September 10th by another agency for non-type rated B777 DECs, but could not make it this soon, so I had to ask for a further date.
A friend of mine was declined a spot on this same dates, although he is B777 type rated!
For both of us, KAL said to wait for a date on October.
Anyway, my agent said that they are getting desperate for DECs as the aircrafts are being grounded there for the lack of pilots.
I hope all this is true and all of us get an opportunity to interview with KAL and get the job.
SF

the great gambler

10th Sep 2007, 05:03

Can someone please give an idea about A330 roster in KAL for expats or commuting pilots,thanks

Rather be sailing !

19th Sep 2007, 14:41

Guys,

Just got back from the KAL interview (I'm a 744 Capt) and it went exactly as briefed by the agent (CCL) the results were supposed to be announced 2 weeks after and all of us are still waiting (all fleets)

What I can say so far is that they seems to be a little more easy that they were in the past except the instructors in the sim, all Korean guys were nice with us. So far, and if I compare with my airline (Jade Bull**** Cargo) it's a dream place !

So wait and see....

TCPILOT

9th Oct 2007, 15:37

Hello,

Im just curious to see if you went direct with KAL or did you go through a recruitment agencies. What is your opinion on this issue. I have an interview organised for November by Risworth agency.

Can anyone possibly give a break up of the days events for the assessment, and how many days it took.

If you are based in Australia, how does the tax situation affect individuals, does the Aust. govenment tax our income earnings???

Thanks for the support and info.

PS:Is there anything to watch out or look out for during the assessment.:)

Capt Chambo

9th Oct 2007, 20:40

TCPILOT you have to go through an agency, you cannot work for Korean directly.
The whole process takes three days. You tend to do the medical and the sim. assessment in the first two days, (the order being dependent on the amount of free time available on the sim. programme) and the interview is done on the final day. You may even get a day free between the sim/medical and the interview. Typically you will be flown (Business class) to Seoul on Sunday and the process then begins on the Monday morning.
Your tax liability in Australia will depend on your personal circumstances, and you should seek professional advice.
There are no particular GOTCHA's in the whole assessment. The medical is thorough, but if you have any "issues" it is possible to pass provided you can show that other regulatory authorities (CASA) are happy with you. You don't mention which type, or seat you are applying for, but the sim. assessment is straightforward. They don't expect you to fly to Korean SOP's, they are looking to see that your ability matches your CV. I would advise you make maximum use of the automatics. Check carefully the required G/S angle when flying the VOR/DME approach from the FAF for 33R at ICN (it's 6% or about 3.6 degrees IIRC). And don't let down your guard just because you finish with a visual!
Good luck.

member#987

10th Oct 2007, 00:13

TC

If you have not signed the "5-year-no-other-agent" with Richworthless, do not use them.
You will not have any of these questions, if you went with CCL.

The sim is straight fwd. The candidates man for each other. We actually had a good laugh (incl Korean TC).

Airborne, return due security, VOR app, land.
T/O max wt, EFATO, return, G/A, visual 1eng circuit.
T/O RTO, no evac.

Good luck

TCPILOT

10th Oct 2007, 08:56

Capt Chambo thankyou for that info, much appreciated.

I have been asked to pay for my type rating for the B777. I have a command on the B757/767, and looking at starting as a DEC. Just want to as, is this a usual process of the employer asking for the payment of the rating, and if so how does the company want this payment made? what are the options for payment plan if any? and finally how much is it?

Thankyou:rolleyes:

SV4L

10th Oct 2007, 10:20

hi 987
what is it the <If you have not signed the "5-year-no-other-agent" with Richworthless,> could you explain .i could come for A330 in november the sim test will be on the the same type rating what you apply for a position?
regards

SV4l

Capt Chambo

10th Oct 2007, 12:56

TCPILOT.

The way this works is as follows...... you actually work for your agency who in turn contract you out to KAL. KAL want a qualified B777 Captain. They will interview you and assess you in a B777 simulator. If they think you are up to the job then they will offer you a position (via your agency) subject to you getting the B777 on your licence. It's now up to you to go away and get a B777 type rating, and when you have it KAL will employ you. I don't know how much it will cost you as it will depend where you do it. Also you may well find that you run into problems with CASA trying to put a type on your licence that is not on the Australian register yet! It may prove quicker and easier, but not necessarily cheaper, to do an FAA ATPL at the same time and putting the rating on that licence. Perhaps someone who has already done it might leap in here, and answer the question for you.
The only financial commitment you will have to KAL is that if you leave within your first year they require you to pay back a training bond of $15000 (IIRC). This covers the cost of your induction course, simulator, licence issue, uniform and manuals etc.
You may want to give some thought to the following.
Your sim. assessment will be done in a B777, you cannot assume that they are giving you any allowance for never having flown the 777 before. The sim. ride forms a large part of the whole selection process, so if you underperform they may not be interested in the fact that you haven't flown the 777 before.
If you do join up you will only get 8 sectors (with a possible 4 more extension) to show that you can fly a B777, that you can fly using the KAL SOP's, that you can operate competently to a number of destination, and in airspace that may be new to you! No pressure just remember that you have left your B767 command and shelled out c$20K for this job!

[email protected]

11th Oct 2007, 20:37

Beware of Asiana and hiring agency contracts:

Could not start a new thread titled Asiana Airlines, so tagged on here -

Asiana Airlines has been overly aggressive at docking pay for missed flights due to illness (no sick leave) or transportation problems after vacations – including docking the already scheduled successive and intervening days off. Put another way, they not only deduct for the lost flight time, but deduct the scheduled days off after the missed flight until the next flight flown. Contractual issues have been a problem with both Asiana and the airline service agencies. 6 Positive Space tickets on the Asiana system were part of the contract, but it turned out to be space available unless expat employees could compete with ALL Asiana employees on up to two seats per airplane a year in advance for reservations. That proved impossible, especially with flying schedules that often were unilaterally made and changed by Asiana. Parc Aviation and World Airline Services agencies have talked about resolving such issues, but nothing has ever been done.

From January 2006 until July 2007 I was an Asiana B-777 foreign Captain based in Seoul. Asiana improperly terminated my contract 7 months before I was to turn age 60, and incorrectly attributed the termination for a cured medical condition even though I was declared ready to return to work from a granted medical leave of absence. Asiana repeatedly asked about my expected return date and physical condition during this 6 week leave which was dutifully provided by me and my doctor. Only after I was medically cleared to return to duty did Asiana decide reinstatement was not worth the remaining time on my contract with an overdue 6 month recurrent training. The contractual 60 days notice of termination with pay was denied, as well as my request for transportation to collect belongings still in Seoul. I went on my own, and several middle management personnel apologized for the bad decision and treatment.

World Airline Services (W.A.S.) was my agent collecting monthly commissions, and they didn’t attempt to resolve this issue. W.A.S. also was 6 months late in sending contractually included medical insurance information after many requests both in 2006 and 2007. Contractually there was no deductible for such medical insurance, but in 2007 they unilaterally applied a $650 deductible. Beware of these pimp agencies once you are hired - they aren’t interested in you or your contract once they get on the commission bandwagon.

This isn’t sour grapes – I was not going to renew my contract even if age 60 were to be increased – enough of expat flying for me, although I left behind some good friends. It was no big deal leaving 7 months early, but thought this might help those looking at this job – caveat emptor.

Round D. Globe

11th Oct 2007, 21:24

Important caveat for anyone thinking of going to Korea no matter which
airline you want to work for. It seems not just from your post but many previous posts regarding KAL aw well that they can and will manipulate the contract if it suits them. Regardless of you or your family.

It's one way to the big jets but not exactly the best way.

Maple Leafs

12th Oct 2007, 02:50

I have a question.

Why not start up your own airline hiring company based out of the Cook Islands or somewhere similar. You will be hiring one pilot only, YOU.

What if the Expat Pilot’s at KAL got together and formed their own company to hire expat pilots and not have those big commissions. Just have some good KAL blokes, say 10, to do some admin stuff. More money for your pockets. Would it not be better for all involved?

Can you just do it all yourself?

KAL will pay the hiring company who will then pay you, lets say 2000 USD a month. The rest will go to an offshore bank. You pay tax on 2000 USD a month? Could you not have the hiring company two company’s deep? The KAL pilots set up a company to hire everyone and then the individual have his own company (basically his or her to be politically correct) and his company pays him/her as an individual ($2000 USD). The rest goes into the individual’s company’s bank account set up in a tax free country.

The KAL Pilots Company will be paid by the Individuals Company a commission, somewhat smaller than the others.

What is KAL paying the hiring companies at the moment and what are the hiring companies paying the pilots they hire? Why is it so different?

Too Hard?

How hard would it be to solve contractual problems? Just a thought.