Two mid-air collisions

[Timothy]

Can anyone confirm whether either or both of the following two collisions took place in uncontrolled IMC outside controlled airspace?


Collision between Piper PA25 G-ASVX and RAF Phantom XV 493, mid-air, 10 miles SW of Marham, Norfolk on 9th August 1974

Collision over Hartlepool on 21 May 1960 between two Javelins.


Can anyone remember any other uncontrolled IMC collisions, since 11 Dec 1941 between a Spitfire Mk VB descending in cloud towards RAF Digby and an Oxford Trainer that had taken off from RAF College Cranwell on a solo training flight?

[barit1]

Can anyone remember any other uncontrolled IMC collisions, since 11 Dec 1941 between a Spitfire Mk VB descending in cloud towards RAF Digby and an Oxford Trainer that had taken off from RAF College Cranwell on a solo training flight?

This was I believe the Spit flown by an American volunteer John Gillespie Magee, who left behind the famous poem "High Flight".

[henry crun]

Timothy: Broken Wings has the following entries.

9.8.74 Phantom FGR2 XV493 41 Sdn Fordham Fen, 2m S of Downham Market Norfolk Collided with Pawnee G-ASVK on low level exercise 2+1 (2+1 refers to the number of fatalities)

21.5.60 Javelin FAW6 XA823 29 Sdn NE of Scarborough, Yorks Collided with XA835; abandoned and dived into the sea.
21.5.60 Javelin FAW6 XA835 29 Sdn 4m NW of West Hartlepool, Durham Collided with with XA823; abandoned on reaching the coast

[Timothy]

It's the uncontrolled IMC bit I am primarily interested in.

[henry crun]

Anything is possible, but I would think very unlikely that the Phantom/Pawnee collision would have been in IMC.

[Timothy]

Yes. Reading between the lines, I would guess that the Pawnee was crop spraying and the Phantom was en route, both at 250'.

Javelins, anyone?

[RETDPI]

The Phantom/Pawnee collision was not in IMC.

[Timothy]

Thank you. Which leaves the Javelins.

Incidentally, this is all leading towards the following two statements:

"No civilian aircraft in the UK operating in IMC outside controlled airspace has ever been involved in a mid-air collision."

and

"The last mid-air collision between two aircraft in the UK operating in IMC outside controlled airspace was in 1941, over 65 years ago."

...can anyone think of any counter examples (pace the Javelins, which I am waiting for a definitive answer on)?

[windriver]

Air North Website at
http://www.airnorth.demon.co.uk/section3z.htm

Preview of an article from January 2003 - Full article available on request.

"Escape From Eight Miles Up:"
The amazing story of a mid air collision between two RAF Javelin all- weather fighters over Hartlepool in May 1960.

8 miles up suggests 40,000 feet so most likely visual (VMC) ... but whether or not they were operating under IFR (eg night?) is another matter.

[Timothy]

IFR is not the issue, but IMC.

Essentially I am countering the argument that flying in cloud without a RAS in Class G is dangerous and foolish.

The facts appear to be that there has never been a civilian aircraft involved in a mid-air in uncontrolled IMC (whereas tens or hundreds have been involved in collisions in VMC) and that the last time there was a military collision was in 1941, when there were many more aircraft around.

[windriver]

Essentially I am countering the argument that flying in cloud without a RAS in Class G is dangerous and foolish.

For extended periods arguably it is both, but not as dangerous or foolish as making it mandatory.:suspect:

[Timothy]

For extended periods arguably it is both
But that is my point, there seems to be no historical evidence to support that view.

From an actuarial point of view, flying in VMC is demonstrably far more dangerous.

But that is an argument for another place. I am interested here in historical fact.

[DCDriver]

The Phantom/Pawnee collision was in VMC by day.
Prior to this tragedy, the RAF never published details of low-level routes around the UK - this accident changed all that and gave rise to notification of such exercises in advance.

[Dan Winterland]

Two gliders coolided in cloud near Lashanm in the early 70's. Don't know more than that, but I know it's fact as I knew one of the pilots quite well. That would fit your category civilian aircraft in IMC outside controlled airspace.

[BEagle]

Flying in IMC without either procedural clearance in CAS, or a RIS/RAS is an avoidable risk.

However, you do NOT need a RAS. RIS alone is perfectly adequate if you are capable of processing the information provided by the ATCO.

Relying on statistics may well make you one, Timothy. Please tell us where you would intend to put your daft theory to the test, so that those with more sense will not be endangered by you.

[ORAC]

30/10/1995 - LU F3s Ze733 & ZE210 collided during night IMC NVG work up.

There was also the case of 2 GR1s which met nose to nose going opposite directions at night. I remember it because of a photo of a piece of metal about the size of a plate which they couldn't initially identify. It turned out to be a coin one of the crew had had in his pocket. I think it was the first of the two below, can remember the second but not if it was night IMC. Led to the introduction of ALFENS to deconflict night low level sorties.

9/8/1988 - ZA593 & ZA329, collided near Milburn, Cumbria.

14/8/1990 - ZA464 & ZA545, collided east of Spurn Head.

Also a couple of Javelin night collisions here (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/Gloster_Javelin.htm):

15/9/1959 - XH775 & XA 662, collided during night intercept near Brundall, Norfolk.

26/10/1961 - Javelin XH906 & Canberra WD995, collided during night intercept north of Akrotiri.

[Timothy]

Relying on statistics may well make you one, Timothy. Please tell us where you would intend to put your daft theory to the test, so that those with more sense will not be endangered by you.
Goodness me, you always know when you are back on PPRuNe, don't you! I fly in uncontrolled IMC much of the time, as I have done for the last 35 years. So do many, many other people. It is why IFR is not limited to controlled airspace in this country. BEagle, RIS is not Control. Please look it up.

ORAC, thank you, I will look into all of those.

[windriver]

I believe CAT Hamble lost some PA28's in mid airs around 1970.. don`t know whether they were in IMC though.

"No civilian aircraft in the UK operating in IMC outside controlled airspace has ever been involved in a mid-air collision."


You are quite specific about the scope of the thread and your stated requirement to support this statement. OK

But statistically it's an interesting case because to put it in to context surely you'd have to record and factor the number of occasions Controllers have issued avoiding action instructions to aircraft on an RAS where an actual risk of collision existed.

[Sir George Cayley]

What is your definition of IMC?

I've bimbled along at 60 to 80 kts in 5000m viz quite happily, but wouldn't be if I was doing 250kts.

From memory;

1) Aztec over the North Sea at night hit by intercepting Betty Windsor Flying Club machine. Damage to wing tip only.

2) Aerial photo Cessna hit whilst circling by Jag? on NavEx over Wales. All dead.

Have you factored in the Quad rule. Has that affected the results?

I may have had some very near misses in IMC OCAS but then how would I know?:hmm:

Sir George Cayley

[Timothy]

I guess my definition of IMC must follow the legal definition of "that which is not VMC", though I must say that what I have in mind is flying in cloud, not doing 141kts at 2000' with a 2400' cloudbase ;)

It is alarming to hear all the emotive arguments about it being unsafe when it seems to be the safest way to operate, at least actuarily.

But, as I say, there are other places to engage in that debate, I am just trying to get the history straight.

I had forgotten about the Aztec wing tip, though I do now recall it. I guess that that was the closest we are going to get to an en-route IMC collision involving a civilian aircraft outside CAS. Are we sure it was in IMC?

[brain fade]

Timothy

Why not have a wee think about how there are never any airproxes in IMC?

Do you think that, in a similar fashion to your lack of midair events, that airproxes also never happen? Of course the truth is that IMC airproxes also occur, but are never reported (for a rather obvious reason).

Methinks your premise is badly flawed. Interesting theory tho, maybe best left as such.:ooh:

[Timothy]

Mid-air collisons make more noise than airproxes. No, that is a weak argument, it is obvious why there are no airproxes, the absence of collisions is much more telling.

[henry crun]

Timothy: I have something ringing a faint bell in my head about this subject.
I could be wrong because it was such a long time ago

Many years ago, could be 30 or 40, someone well up in the gliding world in UK did a traffic analysis to counter the CAA argument that there was unacceptable risk of collision if gliders were allowed to fly IMC in uncontrolled airspace.

As far as I can remember the result he produced was accepted by CAA and the practice was allowed to continue.

Obviously the figures from that report would be useless now but if you could get a copy of it from BGA the methodology he used might still be valid.

[Timothy]

It seems to me that gliders are at much greater risk than powered aircraft because they fly round in circles (therefore not at a quadrantal) often in the same thermal.

[brain fade]

Tim

Without quoting your last, perhaps if more pilots believed you then your statement would lose its truth.

?

:sad:

[Timothy]

perhaps if more pilots believed you then your statement would lose its truth.
The growth would have to be phenomenal to make a difference. Just look at the number of aircraft flying around in the early forties.

If only GA could reach those volumes!

[brain fade]

Tim
The reason you'd probably (well, almost certainly) get away with it, is because no one else is daft enough to do it!

Which does NOT mean it's a good idea!:uhoh:

Also it's not simply a matter of statistics. Pilots don't fly IMC out of controlled airspace, because if they DO find themselves on a collision course with another a/c there will be a sudden noise.

Therefore the lack of collisions is not because it is safe (as I think you allege) but because it is dangerous and therefore only a prize clot would do it!

However, if you are the ONLY one who does it- you should be ok.

If you talk other pilots into doing it, with the help of pprune, you may meet one unexpectedly and not be in a position to post what would have surely been an interesting comment.:sad:

Also even if the growth is only tiny- that tiny increase will likely be you!

Which, I suggest, would make a difference to you.

[ORAC]

Meteor Midair Sept 1955 (http://www.youandyesterday.co.uk/articles/1950s:_Radar_failure_caused_mid-air_Meteor_collision)

Night IMC intercept with collision following radar failure.

[ORAC]

I am going to add in another one here, though it was not in the UK FIR and I cannot find the serial numbers. I was involved as the RAF Stanley SFSO though, and it did involve two UK military aircraft.

The accient occured on 27th June 1985, it took place north of the Falkland Islands, inside the Maritime Exlcusion Zone, and involved a 1312 Flt C-130 on maritime patrol and a RN Sea King operating off the Guard ship - who's name I also cannot remember.

The procedure at the time was for the C-130 to visually identify all ships it detected on it's radar, on the day in question there was extensive cloud, so the C-130 would descend to pass astern the contact and break off if still IMC at minimum descent height. Picking up a contact the C-130 duly started it's descent.

Unbeknownst the contact was the RN guard ship which was about to launch it's sea king (4 POB) in IMC to head for Stanley. The RN procedure was to climb away astern the ship.

Minutes later the two collided at about 2-300ft in cloud. The C-130 crew caught a glimpse of the Sea King as they collided. The Sea King was lost and all 4 onboard killed.

The C-130, coincidently with a RN party on board for an air experience trip, lost the entire wing outboard of the No 1 engine, which itself had to be shut down due to extensive damage. IIRC they then also had to shut down No 2 because of vibration.

The pilot was able to maintain control of the aircraft and head for RAF Mount Pleasant which was open for use, thought not yet formally operational. After performing a low speed handling check he was able to land the aircraft.

The crew and RN party were then placed on a Chinook for the trip back to Stanley, which itself declared a Mayday a couple of minutes after take-off and landing in the Camp. They were then taken back by bus.

The end result was a rewriting of procedures for IMC, a common radio frequency to be monitored, mandatory calls to be made etc.

A point raised at the time was that a similar accident could well have occured in UK waters, and perhaps still could.

[ORAC]

Royal Navy Casualties - 1985.... Thursday, 27 June 1985
Falkland Islands, air crash
HAYES, Duncan I A, Lieutenant
RODWELL, Simon J, Lieutenant
SIMPSON, Robert C, Lieutenant Commander
SUMMERS, Paul C, (rank not listed), D187469P

[henry crun]

Reading about the midair in your #28 post Orac, brings to mind an event that very nearly had an identical result.

Night PI's again, NF11's, I am target with lights out.
The idiot behind me was an ex trapper, and his nav had a radar failure at about 2-3000ft in my 6.
When the nav told his pilot to call it off he said he thought he could see me (he lied) and would continue.

I am sitting there waiting for the Murder call, when out of the corner of my eye I saw a green light which suddenly rushed towards me.
This big black shape passed just over my canopy and the light turned to red.

My deputy flight commander had been creeping up my slipstream hoping to sight me !

[ORAC]

I was the FA (Fighter Allocator) at Buchan when actually had an IMC midair!

It was, IIRC, 1988 or 89, and during an exercise. 360 Sqn Canberras were providing jamming targets and one was being intercepted by a Leuchars F-4.

Now, during jamming exercises, such as Coffee C, jammers and fighters are assigned safety height blocks and, when unsure of each others locations, stay inside them. Since this was an exercise none had been promulgated. It was also night and IMC. (I did express my concern about an hour before the accident to the MC and this was recorded for posterity in the subsequent investigation.

Anyway. The F-4 closed on the target, did so too fast, and got a breakaway cross on the radar and duly broke left. They felt a bump and suspected they'd crossed through the Canberra's wake turbulence.

The Canberra felt and impact which rolled them to one side and on recovering found they'd lost their port wing tank. They called a Mayday, said they'd had a midair, asked if the other aircraft was OK, and diverted to Newcastle.

The F-4 on being advised, ambiguously, that the Canberra had a "problem" suspected they'd thrown him around in their wake turbulence. When they were then ordered to RTB they were pissed off and thought they were in for a bollocking. It was only when duty pilot in LU ATC asked if they'd done a low speed handling check and were informed of the state of the Canberra did they realise what had actually happened.

On inspection after landing witness score marks were found on the underside skin of the right wing and the right tail piece, along with damage to the missile rail. The F-4 had broken at 90 degrees and the Canberra wing tank had gone between the F-4's wing tank and missile pylon, rupturing against the bottom of the wing and then the tail.

Both aircraft had been literally thousands of an inch from total destruction.

[27mm]

Remember that one - it was Roger Ramjet. Here's another one for you: Night ML PIs in ADVs (F3s) over a sandy place, some years ago. Fighter closes in stern of target for Fox 2, with large overtake. Fighter WSO loses contact, pilot calls visual, closes with target and shortly thereafter hits it. All 4 aircrew eject successfully and are eventually picked up. The target a/c WSO was not a local, if you follow me. Was this the only successful survival of a night catastrophic midair collision involving 2-crew a/c?