Massed Lightning takeoff

[Flyingblind]

Gents,

I'm trying to educate some of my younger colleagues that to go vertical in a hurry one does not require a F15/16. Indeed i seem to remember a black and white film clip showing about a dozen RAF Lightnings departing vertically many moons ago.

Young chaps at work are sceptical to say the least, not believing that such 'technology existed back then' to achieve said result. I have tried You tube but just get lots of clips of Dave and P-38.

Would love a link or other to show that yes, you don't need to rely on American equipment to achieve vertical acceleration and the technology did exist 'back then'

Your help would be most appreciated.

FB.

[Harrier46]

Cannot help with a clip but many fond memories of watching vertical climbs, dogfights over the airfield etc from my vantage point in the Runway Caravan at Binbrook. And not an American in sight! Happy days.

[Tigs2]

I believe it was the quickest ever! A pilot strapped to the front of a rocket! Would be great now, but obviously had V difficult missile systems. Somebody told me that in permenant combat reheat you could be out of fuel in 20 mins?? any truth???

[John Eacott]

Young chaps at work are sceptical to say the least, not believing that such 'technology existed back then' to achieve said result. I have tried You tube but just get lots of clips of Dave and P-38.


Try searching "English Electric Lightning": there are plenty of videos, and this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLMhdUYUQQg&mode=related&search=) has the stream takeoff at about 4min 50sec.

Or there have been plenty of Lightning threads, this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=284893) being the latest :ok:

[Pureteenlard]

. . . and speaking of Lightnings, did anyone really intercept a Lockheed U2 in one?

[West Coast]

Standby for plenty of "a mate once told me" stories about it.

[BEagle]

It probably completed the intercept, then came back to make an approach on a USN aircraft carrier (causing them to push aircraft over the side), then went around just as the carrier changed course to avoid that infamous lighthouse......:hmm:

That'd be 3 'mate of a mate once told me' fables in one!

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe it was the quickest ever! A pilot strapped to the front of a rocket! Would be great now, but obviously had V difficult missile systems. Somebody told me that in permenant combat reheat you could be out of fuel in 20 mins?? any truth???

B:mad:s. 20 minutes, you must be joking. Even an F4 with 21k would be dry tanks in 10 not including taxi and take-off or 'dead' fuel because the fuselage emptied before the wings transfered.

We used to play with a Mk 6 for perhaps 30 minutes but that was usually against a medium speed cooperative target. As related elsewhere, a Lightning was a manned rocket. Airborne, 41k, intercept 40 miles down range, RTB.

OTOH, Mk 6 (IIRC) Malta Sunspot, about 1968, scrambled to intercept a Vulcan aa the Vulcan penetrated at some 240 plus miles. As he closed the bomber now at about 130 miles out he was spoofed and sent back to Malta. He was back on the ground after 9 minutes, airborne in 6 and completed the intercept on the same target. (Times are approximate except to the QTR which only required refuelling - other 'shot-out' aircraft also had missile pack changes in the same time).

[Tarnished]

Don't need mates to tell these facts:

Done a 12 min sortie and a 1hr 35min sortie in a Mk6, taking off and landing with the same amount of fuel (and not taking any extra on board through AAR). First was combat in the o'head, second was med level PIs).

Also, if you did the flight planning sums in the Mk3, if you got airborne in max reheat, and went into a 30 degree banked turn, you did not have enough fuel to get back to the airfield you took off from, speed and turn radius took their toll.

Fantastic aircraft to learn about flying in, but not much tactical use in the real world, mind you the 4 x AIM9 fit would have been great.....

Tarnished

[Ali Barber]

My first lecture during ground training as a JP was on the engines. One cross section slide of the aircraft's side view. Script went:

The Lightning has 2 engines, one on top of the other. the one on the top is slightly further back to give the pilot somewhere to sit!

Best Xmas present was a F3 with the ventral tank off. Airborne before the RHAG and climbing vertically until you have just enough fuel to come down!

[ORAC]

Shortest F6 sortie I controlled was a pair scrambled to intercept a pair of A-10s. They called off the end of the runway and intercepted them just of Spurn point. The A-10s played defensive covering each other. The F6s were turning and burning to keep put of the gunsights whilst trying to get a shot. Total time on channel from start till chicken RTB was about 7 minutes.

Shortest F4 sortie O controlled was a LU sortie with a clean aircraft against a high level target coming in from the east at around 50K. Canned set-up, not sure why it was arranged, maybe they bored or it was a bet. Scrambled as the target reached about 150nm out, reheat climb, bunt at the tropopause, accelerate, climb, single turn in behind, ident, splash, liner, cruise descent for a straight in approach to land. Total time from wheels up to touch down was 13 minutes.

[Wader2]

. . . and speaking of Lightnings, did anyone really intercept a Lockheed U2 in one?

In a word, Yes.

Can't rememberthe oxygen figures but I seem to recall that a Taylor Partial Pressure Helmet with Pressure Jerkin and g-trousers gave the Lightning an additional edge over the Vulcan of 10k or FL 660.

I think full pressure kit and 90k was possible. In this case the Lightning took the U2 from above.

PS, forgot to mention that it also took a brilliant bit of intercept control too. When the Russian's tried it they lost 3 Mig 21. One or 2 got shot down and the other span in.

[spekesoftly]

I always liked one comment I heard many years ago, describing the Lightning.

"It has no aerodynamic qualities at all, but simply cuts its own thread of air, and hangs on it".

[A2QFI]

I am having a bad morning, comprehension wise!
"When the Russian's tried it they lost 3 Mig 21. One or 2 got shot down and the other span in." If a Mig 21 was shot down, intercepting a U2, who was doing the shooting?

[Green Flash]

Cue someone to tell me the Gutersloh to Binbrook time please?! (Something along the lines of over cloggy land at just less than mach, hit the heaters when you see the sea and straight in approach with fumes in the tanks. Also stories of getting the burners on too quick and breaking acres of dutch greenhouse glass, etc etc). Over to you chaps!

[maxburner]

Tarnished,

I always put your profligate ways with fuel down to hands like a tractor driver! Perhaps it was the fault of the jet afetr all!

How the devil are you?

[ORAC]

PS, forgot to mention that it also took a brilliant bit of intercept control too. You have to be joking. easy as p*ss. 180 displaced about 16 miles, fighter M1.2 + M0.1 for each 5000ft above 35K. Roll out range 2nm + half the height difference in nm and convert height to speed would have been the book figures, but with a slow target you'd stay subsonic and just roll out much further behind and then accelerate and climb.

Once had a smart-arse Canberra pilot who'd found out where the jet stream was and climbed into it in the opposite direction and throttled back. He was, I kid you not, going backwards at M0.2. Now that needed a bit of a long roll out....

High speed, high level targets were much more difficult, especially the FAF Mirage IVs. We'd get the heads up from London as they headed up the north sea with a KC-135 and have an F6 plugged into a tanker waiting. Half an hour later they'd appear at M1.8 at around 55K heading south. Break off the tanker accelerate and take a frontal Redtop shot. Till someone screwed up and it was an F3 with Firestreaks. It was given to a WO controller who managed a 5nm rollout. The pilot, Dave Fiddler, actually managed to close to a mile, took his shot, went Liner over B1 at around 50k - and diverted into CS because he didn't have the fuel to make WT....

Remember U16As? Tgt M1.6, Ftr M1.8, 180 x 26 converting to a 90 x 12. Closing at M3.4 (34nm a minute) - with a 4 rpm radar, and if you waited to see you'd missed it. Sweeps gone through, bit early, wait, wait, NOW, "Starboard 190"..... Sh*t - 2 seconds late.....

[Wader2]

ORAC, I only said that for the non ICs :)

Anyway, holding all those figures in your head and spewing them out atthe right intervals was the trick.

Your Canberra tale reminds me of a Frogex.

The Vulcan 1s out of Waddo were supposed to do a non-exercise transit over France, descend over the Med and do a low level faker pentration back to UK.

Prestige exercise so all the aircraft launched early to allow for late goers. They then went in to trombone timing legs towards Teeside (as it now) to lose 20 minutes or so. Once they hit the French FIR they also hit a stonking, unforecast, headwind.

They all pushed up to about .95 and were making about 400 kts to Nice. The French, not wanting to waste and opportunity, put up Mystere's for 180 stern conversions. Everything went fine until they rolled out 2 miles behind :)

[GeeRam]

Indeed i seem to remember a black and white film clip showing about a dozen RAF Lightnings departing vertically many moons ago.

Possibly the film of an en-masse stream rotation take-off at the SBAC show in 1961 or 62???

I have that on a VHS tape.....somewhere.....must get around to transferring it to digi before the ruddy tape sticks together......:rolleyes:

[Wader2]

If a Mig 21 was shot down, intercepting a U2, who was doing the shooting?

Er, the Russians :}

You fly into an MEZ Weapons Free and that's what happens.

[Gainesy]

The Farnborough stream take off vid by 74sqn is in the Lightning thread on page 2.

[ORAC]

I can state that categorically that an F6 was capable of reaching over 75K. Admittedly, he did state that both engines had flamed out, it was very quiet, and he was slowly tumbling end over end, but still.....

(In the last couple of months before they finished at BK everyone was doing high speed runs and seeing how high they could get. So, OK, if the pressurisation had gone they'd have been dead, but if you wanted to live fore ever, who'd become a Lightning pilot anyway.....)

It also gave me the opportunity to hand over a Lightning to ATC VFR in the dive arc for recovery and, as they accepted control, casually slip in he was VFR above at FL680. :E:}

[Sl4yer]

Roland Beamont wrote of using nearly all the fuel (down to recovery level) of a Mk 3 in a 7 minute display at Amman in Jordan, for King Hussein. Full reheat was used throughout. I'd like to have seen that! :ok:

Lots of good Lightning stories (many written by Lightning drivers) here (http://www.lightning.org.uk/archive/index.php).

[chiglet]

I was a an ADO [Scopie] at RAF Patrington, from 1965-68. The original mission profile was...Target Identified at 240nm.
Take off [min Re-heat] climb M0.9 til [I think] 30nm short, accelerate to M1.5, turn behind, fire missiles/cannon, then RTB Total time 14 mins....However, I have seen a Mk6 with tanks go Leuchars-Valley-Leuchars 2hrs 10 mins airborne.
Theoretically...:E according to the Pilots' Notes, given a min r/h t/o, cruise climb to tropopause, shut down no2 engine, and cruise descent..with overwing tanks the range was 3000+ miles :D
watp,iktch

[ATCO17]

Ah! Happy days.....chatting to the DAO at TTTE one evening. Known locally as "Yoda", probably due to his ugliness, this Tornado instructor, (G.R. for those who remember him), when asked, stated he'd easily gone balistic in a Lightning and topped out at "around 90K" before tumbling back down into thicker air.....good memories of him crewing out of an Italian GR1 at Cot, and assualting the student pilot on the way back to the line hut! Special rug reserved for him in front of OC TOCU's desk from what I was told!
A17

[Firestreak]

and speaking of Lightnings, did anyone really intercept a U2?

Yes, me and others.

[ORAC]

Speaking of the proposed 4 x AIM9 fit, I can remember the talk of fitting a Y rail on each stub pylon, but wondered if anyone ever fabricated any, even in mock up, and took any photos? Or was it always just a back of a fag packet wet dream sort of thing?

[Firestreak]

ORAC, have a look at Stewart Scotts book EE Lightning Vol 1, Birth of the Legend. Page 157 has pictures of the proposed Sidewinder installation.

[mystic_meg]

Speaking of the proposed 4 x AIM9 fit, I can remember the talk of fitting a Y rail on each stub pylon

Heard stories of this being proposed during Corporate in '82....

[Ali Barber]

Was at STCAAME before they translated it into Welsh and it became the AGWOEU, acting as high speed targets for the trial of AIM9 on the Hawk. We were well pi55ed off that they were looking at AIM9 on the Hawk and not on the Lightning. On a black flag day the armourers nicked one and put it on the Red Top pylon. It rattled a bit so they went to workshops and made a blanking plate to stop the rattle. Plugged in the wiggly amps and coolant to the missile and announced "if you pull the trigger it's going to go!" The rep from CTTO who was there took loads of pictures and eventually got boll**ed by his bosses for daring to even consider the idea! After we brought the ones back from Saudi, they were being touted by BAe with an option for 4 AIM9.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

OK, talking of Lightning weapons fits, outside the old S of FC at West Drayton was a Mk 2A Lightning with 6 (yes, 6) 30mm ADENs :eek:. Now, I know this was a theoretical fit (for the uninitiated, 2 in the upper intake lip [as in all Mk1/2s], 2 instead of the Firestreak packs and 2 in the front end of the ‘Mk 6’ bellytank) but was it ever an Operational configuration? And was it ever test fired? If so, what happened to the Target?!:E Should’ve been pretty well 'sprinkled':ok:- any trials or APC video of such an event?

[GeeRam]

OK, talking of Lightning weapons fits, outside the old S of FC at West Drayton was a Mk 2A Lightning with 6 (yes, 6) 30mm ADENs .

Nope.

The Lightning that used to be outside West Drayton ATC wasn't an F.2A it was F.2 XN769, and was at the time of it's scrapping the last complete F.2 that hadn't been modded to F.2A standard.
So, it can't have had the extra 2 x Aden in the forward belly tank as F.2's had the F.1/F.3 small ventral tank.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

That's why I thought it was a '2A - it did have the enlarged ventral tank with 2 x 30's in the front end a la Mk 6.

[Liffy 1M]

Pic of West Drayton Lightning F.2
http://aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xn769.html

[fantom]

Ok, ok.

Frightenings very impressive but, to get back to the original Q:

The second trip at Coningsby in the F4 conversion course was a (once only) clean wing take-off, keep 360 kts after the wheels are up and pull to the vertical. Get to about 40K feet and then go down and land.

Excellent.

That was thirty-five years ago.

F15/16? Are you joking?

[MinnieOvens]

Having just come across this site I found the comments on the Lightning fascinating.
We used to watch in awe as 92 Sqn did their rotations at Geilenkirchen and it was a pleasure to have them as a sister Sqn to 3.
Might I ask how Doug Awlward??, Geoff Denny et al are getting on these days?
Thanks for the nostalgic look back.

[GeeRam]

That's why I thought it was a '2A - it did have the enlarged ventral tank with 2 x 30's in the front end a la Mk 6.
As was posted above, you can clearly see in this photo that it is in standard F.2 configuration with the normal small ventral tank, not the enlarged tank as fitted to the F.2A, F.6, F53 & T.55.
What you can see is the 4 x cannon muzzle slots in the upper and lower nose.
http://aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xn769gj.jpg
When the F.2's were modded to F.2A configuration, it seems that the lower cannon were removed as every photo of RAFG F.2A's I've looked at all have the lower cannon muzzle slots faired over with plate. It would seem therefore that it's very unlikely that the 6-gun fit was ever fitted operationally.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Well, I am haunted now by my own passion! And publicly embarrassed too. :O I also searched for a photo of the S of FC Gate Guard and the only one I came up with was that posted by Liffy 1M and GeeRam, which is patently a F2. Therefore, I have to concede the issue as the evidence is damning! (In my search I did find a photo of an F2A that appeared to have the 2 x 30s in the ventral tank). http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0701565/L/ (not skilled enough to cut and paste the photo).
However, I now seriously doubt my own sanity – I walked or drove past the W Drayton S of FC airframe from Apr 82 until Apr 86 and which was (at least initially) in pristine condition and looked as though it has just been refurbished and repainted when I joined LATCC. I recall a square fin as well as the large ventral tank, hence my conviction of its identity as a F2A. The thing that made the airframe interesting to me as an aeroplane buff was the unusual armament fit I described in my initial post. Obviously, I was hallucinating; probably too much Caribbean Coke in my previous tour. So, I’ll check-in at the Funny Farm.……..:uhoh:

[BOAC]

Before you check-in, DML,:) I am sure I recall seeing a 6 gun fit on a 2A somewhere. Any 19/92 ETPS/DFS or other WWOLs on here to comment?

[GeeRam]

(In my search I did find a photo of an F2A that appeared to have the 2 x 30s in the ventral tank).

That site does not allow direct links to its photos. You might copy the pic to another pic hosting site and try it or just post the link to the original here.

Bear in mind that this is a museum aircraft (retired in the late 70's) and these do get refurbished with non-original parts from time to time, and that belly tank looks very clean compared to the rest of the airframe.....maybe a replacement ventral tank from one of the late 80's/early 90's scrapped F.6's which would have had the forward belly tank 2 30's.......:confused:
Note the two F.2 lower nose gun ports blanked off, as per all the in-service F.2A photos I can find showing this. Another reason I suspect this is a replacement F.6 ventral tank fitted at some point by the museum.

I am sure I recall seeing a 6 gun fit on a 2A somewhere.

Likewise, which is why I spent a sad hour or so at the weekend shifting through Lightning 'stuff'......:uhoh:

Had a vague feeling it was a Warton trials aircraft or one of the export fit SBAC publicty photos from the sixties, rather than a RAF sqn service aircraft. Couldn't find it though.....:rolleyes:

[safetypee]

The ‘Y’ pylon was discussed in the early 70’s and initially considered 4 x Firestreak/Redtop. The idea was rejected due to the limited services in the weapons pack; subsequent proposals were for 4 x AIM 9 (‘Y’ pylon) with an option of 2 more under the wing (IWI and STCMPC inputs), but this was rejected by the ministry as uneconomic!
Also from STCPMC (a bit dated) a Sea Vixen photo-tank was mounted on a Lightning pylon to seek a solution for weapons firing photography (close formation); it was never flown.

For a massed take-off, I recall the AOC’s ‘display and fly past’ at Coltishall circa 1971/72 involved 26 aircraft (6x4 ship, plus aeros, plus spare); this might take some beating. Particularly as the weather closed in during the low level sector into the N Sea, and that first aircraft to return took the barrier (OC-F).
The day’s events resulted in some notable quotes:
“Red 4 lost contact, but I can see a singleton … … that’s the aeros guy, he only doing his flat show so follow him”.
“Have we passed the turn back point … thought so, just seen the Dutch Islands”
“Yellow 3, understand that you are using HEFOE code and are short of fuel ... we are diverting to Marham”
Me? Green 4, diverted to Wattisham; heard at Wattisham “are you some the 16 Buccaneers we are expecting, returning from off the coast at Coltishall … err no ???????

[Vintage_SEngO]

Picking up the thread on massed take-offs, does anyone else recall the "survival scramble" at Leuchars circa 1974 when the Phantoms of 43 Sqn, the Lightnings of 23 Sqn and the Phantoms of 892 (RN) Sqn all got airborne in minutes using both ends of the main runway? I've lost count of the total, but 43 had 18 aircraft, 892 probably more and 23 weren't short of airframes either. It felt and looked like a one-time launch of the whole air force! Talk about the hair on the back of your neck... I guess that's one "never to be repeated!" - mind you, as we get fewer...

[A A Gruntpuddock]

Way back in the mid 1960's I was working in Guardbridge near Leuchars when about 12 Lightnings did a sequential scramble. They had 2 planes on the runway at a time and each pulled vertical after takeoff. The first was up about 50,000 feet before levelling off when the last was clearing the runway. It was an amazing sight and an even more amazing sound. When I tried to talk to my colleague he could not hear a word I said and eventually I had to keep my mouth closed because the air was reverberating in my chest.
Re U2 interception, I recall reading many years ago that Roland Beaumont was out testing a Lightning and was directed by radar into a storm climb to intercept the U2. He just drew alongside and waved to the amazed pilot before turning away but the plane was falling out of the sky anyway as it ran out of momentum. Apparently there were newspaper stories at the time mentioning the interception.:ok: