Vacating a level

[Blockla]

I've noticed an increase in this type of phraseology in recent months “Assigned FL250, left FL370, bigplane601”; the callsign comes last, usually.

Why?

The call used to be (and often still is) "Bigplane601 left FL370".

IMHO the "new" phraseology has more potential to cause issues not solve them; cause when we have more than one on frequency we can't tell who it is that's talking until you've finished; then what did you say exactly? Also we've already done the readback/hearback thing when giving the level assignment.

The AIP has this relating to frequency transfer:

ENR 1.1 10.3.6 After any frequency change, pilots must advise the last assigned level and, if not maintaining the assigned level, the level maintaining or last vacated level; eg, (my example) “MELBOURNE CENTRE BIGPLANE601 DESCENDING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEFT FLIGHT LEVEL THREE TWO ZERO”.

And the AIP has this relating to leaving levels, with no phraseology attached.

ENR 1.7 4.1.3 The pilot in command of an aircraft, receiving an instruction from ATC to change level, must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which level flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report.
Forgive me if my references are out of date...

Has there been a change in airline SOPS (or AIP), or is this just a cancerous change, we don't know when it started and we can't stop it spreading...

[Arm out the window]

It depends if it's said in response to an air traffic call or not, as I understand the 'callsign last' phraseology.
For example:
Centre: 'Bigplane 123 verify altitude'
Bigplane 123: 'Passing F310 assigned F330 Bigplane 123'.

If they're making initial contact then it should go as you quoted from the AIP.

I stand to be corrected though.

[404 Titan]

Blockla

I am assuming you are referring to international carriers here. Under ICAO RT procedures which most international carriers operate to except our North American cousins of course, a typical change of level outside radar coverage would go like this:

AC: BN Centre, (call sign) request FL370.
ATC: (Call sign), BN Centre, climb FL370
AC: Climb F370, leaving FL350, (Call sign).

Assuming the aircraft you are referring to just changed frequency, “Assigned FL250, left FL370, bigplane601” is incorrect. It should be:

AC: BN Centre, Bigplane601 on descent FL250, passing FL368.

This applies only outside radar coverage. Inside radar coverage, informing ATC you are “leaving” a level or “passing” a level isn’t required except on departure after T/O to verify your altimeter.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I've been doing this aviation thing for 30+ years now. It seems to me that for the first 15 of those years the rules and RT phraseology stayed pretty much the same, but for the last 20 years I struggle to keep up with the changes.

I used to give "maintaining X thousand" and "left Y thousand" calls to ATC. I think it was a requirement.

Now I only verify altitude/level when asked. I give a "maintaining altitude/level" or "cleared to" call to ATC on frequency changes, and when told "when ready descend to altitude/level" I read back the altitude/level and descend when I am ready. I no longer give "left altitude/level".

Seems to work OK and I don't get yelled at by ATC.

Dr

[Blockla]

Thanks for the replies.

The specific circumstance that was “annoying me” today was not about transferring a level assignment and a change of level occurring directly or at least within the minute….

What I was talking about was a “When ready descend” situation. (Arrivals sectors to Canberra and Sydney).

5 to 7 minutes later the pilot (domestic jets and turbo props 5 different carriers) reporting “Assigned FL250, left FL370, bigplane601” (or similar); I suspect this is an attempt to increase safety to ‘confirm/clarify’ the level assignment. I’ve got 6 or more on frequency all assigned (when ready) descent and I lost the "message in the fog" and instead of increasing my awareness I’m now questioning what level did he/she just say? We’ve already exchanged readbacks/hearbacks when we discussed the level 5 to 7 minutes ago.

I personally would like to just hear “Bigjet601 left FL370”, particularly when 5 out of ten times this actually prompts me to hand you off or give you a lower altitude/level.

This applies only outside radar coverage. Inside radar coverage, informing ATC you are “leaving” a level or “passing” a level isn’t required except on departure after T/O to verify your altimeter. Is that an ICAO thing or OZ AIP?

It’s not a big deal, but was just wondering if there has actually been a company doc change or AIP change, that I missed, or it’s just creeping in. If it’s the later, please go back to the old way.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The correct use of assigned is when you have been given your descent clearance but have not commenced descent before a frequency change.

EG.

"BN center, bigbird69 maintaining FL370, assigned FL250."

Callsign last when responding to an ATC instruction not on first contact or when calling ATC with a request.

"Bigbird69, BN center descend FL150"

"Descend FL150, bigbird69"

Having left FL370 "BN Center bigbird69 left FL370, descending FL150".

There is a recommendation against using "To" in transmissions dealing with altitudes because it is easily confused with "Two" :rolleyes:

[SM4 Pirate]

I agree with Chuckles,

On Frequency transfer report your current level/altitude and any other level "assigned".

Commencing descent, "Callsign, left (or vacated, not fussed) Flight Level 370" (note use of key words).

Re Callsign, first or last; if you make the call (position report, level request, track adjustment request) it's callsign first, if you're responding (i.e. reading back an instruction), callsign last.

Arrr.

[ScottyDoo]

Pirate, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the AIP dictate callsign last when reading back an instruction ir clearance??

Answering ATC's question re your level is not a readback. I could be wrong, haven't read the books for ages. Anyone got a link??

What Blockla is seeing is the gradual creep towards placing the callsign at the end of any transmission at all.

eg. "Established, Luvjet 69."

or, "Request flight level 350, Bigboy 181."

The latest trend by rat skygods seems to be along the lines of:

"Qantas 1, position."

"Qantas 1, go ahead."

"Wally's Knob 15, below 5000, Big Wang 5 niner."

Let's not use callsigns at all, just like in Asia or Africa...!!! :rolleyes:

[SM4 Pirate]

Pirate, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the AIP dictate callsign last when reading back an instruction or clearance??

Answering ATC's question re your level is not a readback. I could be wrong, haven't read the books for ages. Anyone got a link??Sorry wires crossed maybe? We are in vehement agreement. This thread isn't about answering a question; it's about an unsolicited call and using the callsign last, plus a new descent phrase that just shouldn't exist; at least that's my read of it. :confused:

Re general lack of callsign adherence, agree again;) (I think)

My personal favourite, "Middyplane123 contact Melbourne centre on 119.5" "teen five" or worse "rog.":ugh: Call backs often ignored; then me calls (hotline - like a live phone line) sector controller to hear aircraft calling in the background :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Muffinman]

geez Scottydoo there's a certain theme running through your "examples" - do you moonlight in the phone sex industry:E

Just a teeny point Chimbu - I don't think you need to mention the 'centre' again when you commence descent - you've already made initial contact (from you're example).;)

[Capn Bloggs]

Unannounced calls to ATC, like leaving a level, have callsign first. Surely that's the most basic of RT basics? You don't blurt out an unprovoked message and then add on who said it?!

Callsigns are to be put at the end of the transmission "when reading back an ATC message". Oz Jepp ATC Series 900 6.2.2 refers. As far as I am concerned, that does not mean callsign last if ATC ask you a question or during any other types of transmissions eg "ABC, report present level" Reply, "ABC left FL120". One of the reasons the callsign is put last is to ensure that ATC has heard all your readback, because it is finished with your CS (bit like "over"). If ATC ask you a question, I assume they want to know the correct aircraft is answering before noting what the answer actually is.

404 Titan,
Inside radar coverage, informing ATC you are “leaving” a level or “passing” a level isn’t required except on departure after T/O to verify your altimeter.

Not correct in Oz. All departures from level flight must be called. Oz Jepp ATC series 800 section 3.5.1.6 refers.

Chimbu,
The correct use of assigned is when you have been given your descent clearance but have not commenced descent before a frequency change.

"Assigned" died a horrible death some revisions ago. The term now is "cleared". Oz Jepp ATC series 700 section 1.9.1.4 refers (don't ask about what that paragraph actually means: it is complete gobbledygook).

[Chimbu chuckles]

Thanks Bloggs....I will remember that when next I grace Oz airspace:ok:

muffinman interesting point...and you may well be correct...but I think I will keep doing it because it may be some considerable time between initial contact and leaving cruise and by starting the transmission with "BN/SY or MEL Center" you give the poor chap at tother end of wireless time to engage brain and hear the 'important bit'....doing otherwise will elicit "Say again callsign leaving FL370 for FL150?" too often:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"All departures from level flight must be called"

Bloggs

Are you ATC?

Lets get this clear!

So when I have been identified on radar and I am cruising along at 9000 and Dullsville Appr tell me "XXX, when ready descend to 5000", I should call "XXX, leaving 9000", when I commence my descent??

Haven't done that for years! Outside radar coverage OK, but not once identified.

Can't they see from my transponder readout that I have left 9000?

What about routinely calling "XXX, maintaining 9000" at TOC, when not asked to "report maintaining".

Again, can't they see from my transponder readout that I have levelled out at my assigned level, in this case 9000?

Dr :cool:

[Muffinman]

AHH Chimbu now your starting to brag - all that time in cruise way up there above us mere mortals;) half ya luck (nice snap above India by the way):)

Doc I hate to break the bad news to you but....yep let em know your 'going down' ...so to speak:E

I guess (?) the difference lies in that they know your on your way up there but they don't know when you intend to leave (?) IMHO:hmm:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Muffinman

OK, I'll put it back in the phraseology book, but it seems like unnecessary RT chatter to me!

Can't say I hear too many others say it in more recent times. I generally take a lead from the bigger beer cans!

Seems to me that if ATC say "XXX, descend to whatever" they expect you to do something now, but if they say "when ready" then they have no conflicts below or in front of you. One look at the screen would tell them you have "left" the previously cleared level.

Dr :cool:

[dodgybrothers]

FTDK,

Ol' Bloggsy is correct. Advise ATC when leaving even in radar, it may then require them to hand you on to next sector and he is also right about the 'cleared' thing even when maintaining a level but cleared lower on a hand over to another sector it is 'ML CTR BIGBOY 1 maintaining XXX cleared XXX'

Its all bullsh!t really, but some checkies will nail for no other reason

[Muffinman]

Yep Doc:cool: I know what you're saying, 'specially when you're approaching a level on descent and about to request further descent when the line gets busy - yer level off (avoids paper work) - moments later they come back with a descend to .... and you reply.....new level.... left existing level....it gets a bit verbose... all the while your in an airspace where you can feel the 'cods' being zapped by electrons and the transponder blicks slower than your heart rate;)

[Capn Bloggs]

Hey Doc, I don't make the rules, I just follow 'em! :ok:

[404 Titan]

Capn Bloggs

Thanks for that. Unfortunately for us long haul drivers we can’t be expected to know and/or keep up with every country’s variations from ICAO RT procedures. Our company tells us how we are to do it and we politely accept their wishes.

[ScottyDoo]

You don't blurt out an unprovoked message and then add on who said it?!

Well that's what people are starting to do.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

A typical letdown onto the TL ILS
ME: TL Appr, XXX maintaining 9000, on top, copied Z
TL Appr: XXX when ready descend to 7000
ME: 7000 when ready, XXX
ME: XXX left 9000
TL Appr: XXX roger
ME: XXX maintaining 7000
TL Appr: XXX roger
TL Appr: XXX descend to 5200
ME: 5200, XXX
ME: XXX left 7000
TL Appr: XXX roger
ME: XXX maintaining 5200
TL Appr: XXX roger
TLAppr: XXX descend to 4000
ME: 4000 XXX
ME: XXX left 4000
TL Appr: XXX roger
ME: XXX maintaining 4000
TL Appr: XXX roger
TL Appr: XXX descend to 3500
ME: XXX 3500
ME: XXX left 4000
TL Appr: XXX roger
ME: XXX maintaining 3500
TL Appr: XXX, cleared for the TL 01 ILS-Z appr, make pilot intercept of the localiser, call the tower 118.3 leaving 3500

Interesting concept!

Dr

[YMML]

FTDK
It needn't be quite so wordy.
TL: ABC When ready descend to 7000.
You: Descend to 7000 ABC.
Later...
You: ABC Left 9000.
TL: ABC.
Subsequent descent steps needn't be maintained but flown at a constant descent profile. Work out at what DME you will cleared lower (check the CTA steps) and plan to be approaching each level as the next lower clearance is delivered.
Then, all you need do is continually descend whilst accepted the lower clearances.
TL Appr: XXX descend to 5200
ME: 5200, XXX
.....
TLAppr: XXX descend to 4000
ME: 4000 XXX
.....
TL Appr: XXX descend to 3500
ME: XXX 3500
And then you will be happily sliding down the ILS in no time without so many interactions!
Hope that helps!

[tio540]

Forky

It's deScend, and kind of important.

;)

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Doc,

Prepared to be shot down in flames as I don't have AIP handy but you don't need to report all of the 'maintainings' when you reach the cleared level in a radar environment. The 'lefts' are relevant as has been pointed out as you're operating at your own discretion but unless requested to report maintaining - don't!

UTR.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

UtR

You won't get any argument from me, and I don't say all the "maintainings" but post above seem to indicate that I should.

As it is not particularly complex to get the average GA aircraft headed down, I used to add the "left XXX" to the end of the new level readback unless there was going to be some delay to my descent. However, as few others do in this part of the world, I stopped.

Dr

[SM4 Pirate]

ENR 1.1 -18 10. ENROUTE
10.3.5 In non-radar CTA, pilots must report maintaining an assigned
level. An IFR flight operating VFR-on-top or requesting IFR Pickup
must advise level maintaining.

ENR 1.1 - 78 60. CLIMB AND CRUISE PROCEDURES
60.4 Pilots must report maintaining an assigned level.
60.5 After any en route frequency change, a pilot in command of an IFR
flight must advise present level. If the aircraft is not at its planned
cruising level, the pilot must also provide advice of the level to
which the aircraft is being climbed.

To summarise: Report reaching and leaving all levels, except that in radar on descent there is no requirement to report reaching a level, although you may choose to do so to encourage an onwards descent clearance.

Personally I prefer "approaching FLXXX"; but not when you're still 4000 foot above the level.

FTDK, As an ATC I'd be expecting you to tell me you're leaving A090, but wouldn't be shocked to see you doing so without a call, if I notice at all:}. Usually when I'm giving a when ready descent it's based on you not having anyone close in front or below; i.e. if you comply with the descent at your discretion you won't take anyone out; a call telling me to look at you again gives me time to look at you re further descent/position re the steps etc.; it gets my attention again; but so does "approaching A060"; which I'd prefer than "Maintaining A060" (usually with gruff undertones implying it's all my fault).

Remember you are but one blip on the scope and my attention may be diverted on a different part of the screen (cause you aren't going to take anyone out); or having an in depth conversation with the tower about the plans with the departures (burst) or talking to arrivals about getting the next sequence better sorted than the last etc. Hopefully my scan will pick up that you have left a level; but then again it may not if it's only 1000 foot change etc.

Sometimes it's hard just because of the actual mode C displayed; A088 and A092 mean the same thing as A090; i.e. within tolerance. So just looking for a A089 isn't "proof" of commenced descent; usually A087 is good enough but it's amazing how many times you see A088, A087, A088 in consecutive paints.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

SM4 Pirate

Thanks for that!

I appreciate all elements of your perspective. That's the kind of answer I was looking for.

In actual fact I seem to get around OK without causing chaos, however, I like to fly by-the-book if I can.

Cheers

Dr :cool:

[Capn Bloggs]

And you can blame all those step calls on...RHS and his "free in XXX" compatriots.

[Bula]

Do some of use have a little bit to much time on our hands ay?