SAA, the chop has started

[ERASER]

The unions received the official notification for retrenchments. The first bunch of retrenchment totals 711 employees.

The Breakdown;

GPS AIRPORT EMPLOYEES : 168
CALL CENTRE EMPLOYEES : 93
CABIN CREW : 433
PILOTS : 17

Last working day for those that may be retrenched will be 30 September 2007.

E

[Q4NVS]

Interesting...

Any idea what principles/criteria will be followed for Pilots per say?

Above a certain Age, on a certain Fleet or LIFO (Last in First Out)?

[Alternative]

Stop Worrying....Wont happen...At least not with regards to Pilots!!!there are plenty other options...on the lines of contract flying for various airliners.

[JetNut]

SAA can get rid of at least 40 pilots tomorrow (over 60 year olds)

[kotakota]

Jetnut ,

are you ageist ?

[gtseraf]

Kotakota

no, he's not ageist, just a $#@#% stirrer;)

[B200Drvr]

Why would they get rid of pilots if they dont have enough to fly the routes that are in place at the moment.

[FuelFlow]

The clowns that attempt to run the airline, will give away routes, aircraft and pilots, just to keep their pockets full. W:mad::mad::mad::mad:S!

[Deskjocky]

Any reduction in staff numbers can only go with an increase in productivity from the ones that are left. If you don’t do this then retrenchments will deliver nothing except even worse customer service.

On the pilot side I think this is going to be a very interesting test for SAAPA, to date the "ou manne" seem to have benefited quite nicely- one could argue to the detriment of the younger pilots. Will the over 60 guys "fall on their swords" and leave via a package? or will the LIFO principle apply? Time will tell- perhaps there is another way to solve this, how creative will the solutions be from both sides?

If the packages are in line with those offered to management then perhaps some of the guys will take the payday, especially if they have around 30 years service which would translate into about a year and a half of pay. Nice money, especially if ol uncle Vern is happy to let you fly for him for a few years...
:hmm:

[Insane]

Welcome to African Business practices, the worst is yet to come!!!

[asianeagle]

No doubt the "cant afford to loose the experience" card will be played by the old timers.

Come on OLD chaps, go and see what its like to go and flog around in
Ol Uncle Verns rustbuckets and let the "rookies" have a slice of the cake for a change. :}

E V V E E R R Y Y B O D Y, SAAAVE YOURRSELVESSSSS!!!!!!

AAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!! !:eek:

[Beta Light]

Asian Eagle, it is as if you were eves dropping at Lamma island last night!! The crew (and some on holiday) I had dinner with – one an old timer flying as F/O- immediately mention the “experience needed” when they got the news per text message.
Got really interesting at the table after a lot of Tsing Tao. Some senior SAAPA members in town. If you are a SAAPA member and low in seniority, pack your bags for contract in India.

It is a worry that aviation world wide is riding the huge wave with aircraft orders and recruitment, while a country that is hosting the Soccer World Cup in 2010, and passengers for the second biggest sport in S.A. looking for seats to the World Cup in France, have to cut back.

Another interesting discussion was the fact that S.A.A. as a Star Alliance partner is sucking the hind tit. Apparently only 20% of Star passengers to South Africa arrive on S.A.A.
Singapore, Emirates and Lufthansa carry the remaining 80%. This is beer talk, but if true, which is very believable taking the source, should be very worrying
for the future

[JetNut]

cant afford to loose the experience


I will never understand how this argumant can ever hold water, especially regarding a pilot who has reached the ripe old age of 60. At some point in the experience curve, competence reaches a peak and begins to taper out, and it makes no difference how many thousands of hours one may fly beyond that. The safe operation of todays modern digital flight deck does not increase linearly with years of experience, as the system involves many other aspects.

In fact, the physiological degradation caused by old-age in many instances serve as an impediment to the safe operation of the modern jet airliner. So immediately the above argument falls flat.

This may explain why many of SAA's over 60's who weren't allowed to fly as commanders on the long range anymore and were subsequently given domestic slots, eventually fell off the A319 and 738 conversion courses.

For those of you who really feel the need to burn me at the stake for a semi-controversial post: Please note, I have not attcked anyone personally, and if the comments bare resembelance to anyone alive or deceased it is merely a coincidence :8

[Avi8tor]

Guys, this has been on the cards for years. The gravy train had to finally come to an end.

For years, its been a well known fact that SAA is way over paid and way under worked. The TCE of an new SAA captain is about twice that at Emirates Captain. And i don't know many captains at SAA that write 900 hrs in their log books every year.

Any reduction in staff numbers can only go with an increase in productivity from the ones that are left.

There is plenty of slack in the system. SAA and its staff, have to realise that if they want to be a global player, they has to get with the program.

Take the pain now, and reap the rewards later!!!!!!!

The up side is that the global demand for airline staff is huge, so nobody will be without 3 square meals a day.

[asianeagle]

it is as if you were eves dropping at Lamma island last night!!
nope, wasnt there but could hear them from the other side of Kai Tak!!!:p

Jetnut: for once I must agree, there are are some very competant "juniors", thanks to the long wait for command. Some even had command before SAA, but I digress!

sniff sniff, aaah the sweet smell of protectionism :eek:

[forkingfishing]

what is SAA?

[divinehover]

Posted by Av8tor

'The TCE of an new SAA captain is about twice that at Emirates Captain. And i don't know many captains at SAA that write 900 hrs in their log books every year'

What a load of crap. SAA has recently completed a Maintainance of Parity agreement and if you think SAA pilots are earning twice what Emirates pilots are earning your either very mis-informed or just plain stupid. As for the hours. A whole buch of Capt's exceeded their annual quota by Nov last year. I expect this year will be worse.

It's important to remember that SAA drivers are not over paid by international standards. It's the local carriers that under pay their pilots. That's one of the reasons why Comair is loosing so many pilots to 'underpaying' Emirates.

People who think that SAA's troubles will be cured if they cut the pilots salaries you are sorely mistaken. It might make some other pilots feel better about their **** salaries but it won't fix the problem. It will in fact worsen it. If SAA had to loose 25% of their pilots in 1yr (like Comair) there would be no chance of the training section keeping up. It would mean 200 new intakes in 1 yr.

SAA pilot turnover-almost nil

Other local carriers- very big percentages

Deduction: Whose salaries need to be adjusted? SAA's or everybody elses?

[Mark J B]

Got to agree with that sentiment!

[Deskjocky]

Before this goes down that well worn path of everyone slating SAA pilot's salaries lets stop the bus for a moment.

The issue here is cost-across the board, not just a small group. If one looks at the whole organisation as a whole there are anomalies (in relation to what SAA pays versus the market) everywhere. There also productivity issues across the board too. If you take out a few hundred managers then the you have to be well sure that a performance structure is put in place that ensures the rest pull finger otherwise the exercise is futile and in a few years you will be back up to the old numbers.

What’s interesting is the fact that for the first time pilots and non management staff are being looked at. The organisation needs to get some big wins out of this process- particularly in the area of contractual performance management. To date the unions have refused this but now may be forced to accept it as part of a compromise package.

Personally, I think the pilots are in the frame because the unions will ask why they are not being looked at and will leverage the issue- particularly as pilots make up 28% of salary costs but account for 8% of staff numbers. To me, it looks like compromises can be found if cool heads prevail on both sides of the fence, the issue here is about cost not head count. That's my take on it anyway.

[Avi8tor]

What a load of crap. SAA has recently completed a Maintainance of Parity agreement and if you think SAA pilots are earning twice what Emirates pilots are earning your either very mis-informed or just plain stupid. As for the hours. A whole buch of Capt's exceeded their annual quota by Nov last year. I expect this year will be worse.


Please feel free to take a look at
http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/Emirates_Pilot_Pay.php

I know these are NOT the latest Emirates numbers, but good enough for comparision. And what is the SAA annual quota, 900 hrs a yr?

At NO stage in my post did I mention pilots salaries, but the SAA pilots seem to get MIGHTY sensitive. I wonder why?

If SAA had to loose 25% of their pilots in 1yr (like Comair) there would be no chance of the training section keeping up. It would mean 200 new intakes in 1 yr.
SAA pilot turnover-almost nil
Other local carriers- very big percentages
Deduction: Whose salaries need to be adjusted? SAA's or everybody elses?
I have to laugh, I ran a training section that replaced 34% of its pilots in 1 yr. Loads of happy 1st officers. Commands come quick.


P.S. Who makes the profits and who makes the losses? Its a business, not a flying club.

[line-driver]

Quote:
If SAA had to loose 25% of their pilots in 1yr (like Comair) there would be no chance of the training section keeping up. It would mean 200 new intakes in 1 yr.
SAA pilot turnover-almost nil
Other local carriers- very big percentages
Deduction: Whose salaries need to be adjusted? SAA's or everybody elses?

And currently I believe the turn-over at Comair stands at about 15% and the training department is totally over-stretched..

[ByAirMail]

The good old “parity”
You can only “parity” the pay if you can “parity" the balance sheet –
minus tax payer contribution that is.

[The Actuator]

It seems this thread would have a lot more credibility if people could just work out the difference between the words lose and loose.:ugh::ugh::ugh:
Quite right Avi8tor you did not mention pilot's salaries you only said
The TCE of an new SAA captain is about twice that at Emirates Captain. := (also it's A new SAA Captain not an)
Now, I'm not an accountant or a Deskjockey but as far as I know TCE does have something to do with salaries. No?
When all this is over we will only have worse clowns running the show because sure as God made little apples the competent ones are going to be fighting to get in the line for the packages.
Jetnut you are one of those guys who would be better off keeping quiet and letting us all think you are a moron, but no - you have to post and then remove all doubt. Well played.

[Q4NVS]

Well, firstly I feel for all involved - Retrenchments are never easy to digest.

However, I have been part and seen a few other Professional Companies (much larger than SAA and outside of Aviation), stand at the brink of extinction before going this route.

As mentioned in another (but similar thread), a few months ago, this used to be known and branded as Business Process Re-Engineering. Even then consultants were making good $'s from it, but most of the companies involved then are still around and profitable today...:8

Those "Super" Managers or "others" usually leave at their own peril, when their ambitions outstrip that of the said company. Further then retrenchments is an adequate tool to "push" the old/dead wood down the river.

Those remaining will rise to the occasion, or leave at their own peril when they "crack" under the new productivity pressure.

Its a business, not a flying club.

If anyone at SAA is serious about business (and only business), there is NO reason why any Flight Deck (except during training), should consist of more than 1 P1, 1 P2 and 1 P3. Why this :mad: of P1's flying as P3's etc..?

Somewhere another P1 must be in the employ of SAA and doing the job of the P1 jolling around as a P3.

Business Economics 101 says Accountants will get seriously pissed off by this (not to mention other unions within SAA).

:oh:

[gb346]

I personally flew 892 hours last year. To me, that is being productive. A lot of the Captains timed out at 900 hours last year and sat on their butts for the last few weeks of 2006. I think there are a few readers out there who can't differentiate a fact from a rumour. Its always so easy to quote an anonymous bloke in the pub who said this and that.

[divinehover]

I'm expecting close to 900 hrs this yr. What are you doing Avi8tor?

[Avi8tor]

Me? I am hoping for NOTHING over 300 hrs this year. But I DONT work for a state controller loss maker. :}

For years, its been a well known fact that SAA is way over paid and way under worked.

This statement applies to ALL of SAA, top to bottom, all departments. And please, I am not suggesting that ONLY the Flight Ops salaries are reviewed, it has to start right at the top, all the way down to the cleaners.

And remember productivity is working SMARTER not HARDER!!!

As I have said before, as SAA, better or worse dominates the industry in SA, getting its house in order will benifit ALL pilots in SA.

If SAA is forced to run a real business, costs have to come down. If that means pay cuts for some, so be it.
If the affected people find they can do better elsewhere, they leave. Then everybody moves up the food chain. It will have a threefold effect.
- Commands come quicker. So the people see MORE money quicker.
- If the other airlines can't retain experienced crew, they will pay more.
- It will also open up more jobs for the young guys at the bottom of the food chain.

The whammie here that all this is done WITHOUT the tax payer. It's called globalisation.

If SAAPA/SAA management were really on the ball, they would look at 'B' scales like Cathay did a few yrs ago. The costs are reduced over time, and nobody sees a pay 'cut', 'cause its money they never earned.

You gotta love capitalism and the free market.

[Avi8tor]

I personally flew 892 hours last year. To me, that is being productive. A lot of the Captains timed out at 900 hours

A lot? As a %? I am guessing less than 5%. Would like to see a rolling average over a few 365 day periods. Cause I know some fleets are seeing alota training going on.

Oh, and but the way, why did they sit for the last few weeks? You can fly to 1000hrs.

If you have stats, please provide. I would hate facts to get in the way of a good argument.

P.S. This is NOT a personal attack on ANY SAA captains. Looking for facts here.

[saywhat]

Avi8tor, I am now humbled. I have met the Messiah, (all be it on the internet), he lives in Dubai (Who would have guessed). You have such a great grasp of all things complex. How foolish of us mere mortals to believe that we ought to work for a reasonable wage.

I for one shall hence forth donate 90% of my salary to charity, or even better, back to the tax coffers. Thank you for allowing me to see the light. In all my years, I thought globalization was an entirely different thing. My bad.

Perhaps you should start a University in SA, teaching simple things like business economics. Or perhaps you could just issue your students stupid pills, as it seems you have an endless supply of them........

[Avi8tor]

I love when they dont have the arguments, they get personal. Is it something they teach on conversion from mere mortal to gods gift to aviation? ........:)

I say again, its a business not a flying club.

What's your solution wisea:mad:?

[TooBadSoSad]

Hey Avi8tor, why don't you come work for SAA and we'll start a B scale, JUST FOR YOU!! Or maybe you are personally so worthless that SAA won't have to pay you at all?

[ERASER]

SOME MORE INFO

As indicated in the business plan the following initiatives may
impact on headcount:

Cabin Crew:
Reduction of crew complements on A340’s
Reduction of one SCCM on A340’s
Exiting of the B744 from the fleet.

Pilots:
The closure of the Durban base

Airport Employees:
The One Stop Shop initiative may have an impact on
headcount

Call Centre Employees:
The combining of the call centres may have an impact on
headcount

Technical Employees:
The exiting of the B747-400 fleet :confused:


The possibility of headcount reductions in SAA Cargo and
support services are being investigated and will be discussed
with you when the information is ready.


The number of employees affected and the job
categories in which they are employed

Proposed Selection Criteria:
The Company envisages applying the following criteria for Cabin Crew, Ground and Technical employees:
Service, attendance and employment record, and
FIFO where employees qualify for early retirement
Employment Equity principles will be applied in conjunction with the criteria above

Pilots will be selected in terms of the Regulating Agreement with due consideration of Employment Equity principles.



E




ps :confused: (- 6 X B744 BUT + 3 X A343 + 2 X B733C + Comair/Kulula fleet)

[ested]

It amazes me how uninformed people on this forum are.

Are there no SAA pilots that are members on this forum? Or do you just keep quiet?

Nobody has even mentioned figures in terms of the shortage of flight deck crew, the 42 flights in August that so far can't go cos there's no P3's, the further shortage of crew because of the SAA manned 74's to Luanda and Lisbon saga, and also the-

Ag you no what, the list just goes on.

And I thought i could GET some info from this site?
Isnt there anyone in the know that comment here?

I can tell you one thing for sure: If 17 SAA pilots heads roll. It wont be because ther are 17 SAA pilots that are not needed.
So for what other reason then I ask...

[bianchi]

There are many SAA pilots watching this forum,but why should we comment, because what ever"'WE''( I think we get called SKYGODS......feels quite good though) say get shot down in flames.( remember SAA pilots are the enemy---prick$)
Then again we got educated(couple of degrees etc) peolpe like JETNUT that do all our commenting for us!! Win-win situation !! OUT !

[JetNut]

:}

For sure.

SkyGod out...

[Gyro Nut]

SKYGODS RULE!!! Everyone else is just a mere mortal...

[Hobagoas]

If only your grammar or use of the English language could reflect as much....
:rolleyes:

[ested]

pretty please, lets not degrade this conversation to the usual SAA vs everyone else saga. lets keep objectively to the facts.

Come on guys, There are possibly peoples careers at stake here...

[saywhat]

Basic business principles 1.

Whenever you as management intend on re-negotiating employee benefits in order to save costs, the first thing you HAVE to do is make a press statement advising of job losses. After this whatever cuts the employee takes in order to save his hide seems to be a good compromise, with an added benefit to management that they look like the good guys for letting you keep your position.

Time will tell, leave it at that. By the time this thing pans out, we will probably have seen another 3 CEO's through the company with more "brilliant" ideas. The issue is now in the hands of the real gods, lets see if they are clever gods.

[ByAirMail]

Bianchi and Gyro Nut. How much longer will you be in denial? This is not fellow pilots attacking you but your own management. I don’t know where you were during the S.A.A. predatory business dealings in the FliteStar / Avia and Sun Air days, but you will not find any sympathy from us, as SAAPA’s silence on these issues was deafening at the time.

Maybe a bit more knowledge of the history of your organization, present and past management culture, and basic arrogance, might change your mind and make you more aware of why these feeling against S.A.A. ( not crew) are out there.

But then being in denial, or too young in aviation, I think not

[JetNut]

By Airmail:
Many of the pilots and especially cabin crew at SAA are ex-Sunair employees.

With regards to retrenchments: Firstly, two requirements of law need to be met, especially with regards to a parastatal such as SAA. It has to be both substantive (all avenues exhausted) and procedural (a plan of action regarding packages, who goes etc. must be documented, with every t crossed and i dotted). So far, the "substantive" part is pub-talk. Therefore methinks that this process will most probably take the best part of next year anyway...and as 'saywhat' has very correctly noted...three CEO's would have come and gone by then anyway.

I LOVE DEMOCRACY IN A CAPITALISTIC COUNTRY

[innersole]

"S.A.A. predatory business dealings in the FliteStar / Avia and Sun Air days

whilst I am sure SAA has been involved in schemes to try and benefit their business, they generally get caught and fined by the competitions board for doing so. Flitestar was probably the best airline SA has ever seen, but it was the Nats who set that up to move their money offshore pre-1994. When the leasing company wanted more security in those mad days, the board closed the airline down overnight.

Avia was Gert de Klerks' money moving scheme which was so effective it only lasted a couple of months.

As for Sun Air, another great operation, you can't allow your direct competition ( Comair ) to control your board of directors ( 2 out of 5, if I'm not mistaken ) and expect to do a roaring trade.:}

[Avi8tor]

Hey Avi8tor, why don't you come work for SAA and we'll start a B scale, JUST FOR YOU!! Or maybe you are personally so worthless that SAA won't have to pay you at all?

What a laugh, u types crack me up. U seem to forget, with out me, the tax payer, YOU wouldn't have a job.

As civil servants, something to think about.

[nugpot]

with out me, the tax payer

Do you pay SA tax in Dubai?

[Sir Osis of the river]

Just because we work on the other side of the Boerewors curtain, does not mean we do not have taxable interests in SA......

So, yes, I am concerned about my tax RAND!

[Avi8tor]

DITTO.......

[nugpot]

I am concerned about my tax RAND

OK, lets rephrase the question. How much do you personally contribute to SAA?

I bet your total tax liability per annum in SA is less than I pay in VAT each month....

Not that it really makes a difference. It is amusing to see you playing the taxpayer card from the foreign desert.

[divinehover]

This has got boring. Off to the pub.

[Avi8tor]

Really not the point, dont you think?

Why should the tax payer be supporting SAA at all? I can see why the employees at SAA would get real nervous if there was a change in the status quo.

I have said before, I bet every departement at SAA thinks is EVERYBODY else thats over paid and under worked.

Cut the apron strings and let SAA sink or swim. The industry will be better off in the long run.

[nugpot]

You are right Avi8tor. It is not really the point, but you dodged the question. You post from overseas and act if you personally pay to keep SAA and SAX flying.

A few examples:

From this thread
with out me, the tax payer

From"All recruitment at SAA on hold (The world according to JetNut thread)"
Wonder if i am FINALLY gonna stop wasting my taxes on the national carrier?

From "SAA restructuring info"
without me, the tax payer, pitching in.


From"SAA - the bottomless pit"
as long as it’s not my tax money paying for it.


From "SAA vs Pilot Shortage"
the state starts to using my tax ZAR

So, how much do you really contribute to SA's tax coffers? Or is it just a nice argument for an expat.....

Remember that we know each other, so this is in good humour.... ;)

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Is SAA still part of the railways system and if so, do those who take rides on the Blue Train also fund SAA?:rolleyes:

[Bahraingeneric]

Are 17 pilots being made redudant? -bad news either way!!

[Frogman1484]

AVIATOR, I would not be to loud about the tax payer paying for SAA when in Dubai the government is subsidizing the fuel and aircraft purchases. If it was not for the generous terms the government ...sorry royal family... gave to EK I wonder if it would be as big as it is now.

[The Flying Circus]

Hi
The question is: Can SAA survive without the taxpayers ?

The answer is NO
Spoories ala SAA/ SAL cost the taxpayers more that 100 -300 Billion since 1934.
SAA is a brain-dead useless organisation and a disgrace for capitalism.
You Skygods are flying for a fool’s paradise. I guess you guys should sooner than later seriously think about layoffs.
I would like to see the Skygod’s working for real money, - flying contract in Afghanistan or Sudan in a Twin Otter or 1900, doing 100 per month and staying a places generally known as Cockroach –Inns.

TFC

[JetNut]

Circus...

I would like to see the Skygod’s working for real money, - flying contract in Afghanistan or Sudan in a Twin Otter or 1900, doing 100 per month and staying a places generally known as Cockroach –Inns.


Been there done that...got holes blown in the t-shirt. Any other requirements SAA pilots need to meet ?

PS: Nugpot, Frogman...well said!:D

[The Flying Circus]

You missed the point sir. If you look at profit reporting for Q1 and Q2 the figures are shocking. On the other hand , if you loss- making employer can still pay you salaries after making 20 Billion the last few years then you are either in good hand or living in a bubble.

The chances are good that your current T-Shirt is already full of holes and needs a replacement soon.

Isn’t it a pie in the sky business, overregulated with super egos?

I would seriously worry if my employer is in the same financial boat than SAA with Brent reaching for $ 100/ barrel.

TFC

[JetNut]

Isn’t it a pie in the sky business, overregulated with super egos?


I don't know why I keep responding to this perpetual mediocrity, but I just can't help myself...:ugh:

Firstly, I do agree with you on this point, circus, the operative word in your quote is overregulated. And as long as the government insists on appointing the controlling board who in turn appoints the CEO, who in turn appoints top management (this doesn't always happen though, as in some cases at SAA the board appoints top management directly, which becomes a corporate governance issue...but thats a seperate topic), and competitors like Comair etc, have very miniscule political/government interference, SAA will continuously run at a loss, and the pilots will continuously receive the compensation they rightly deserve.

And having said that, I'm very confident that every single pilot at SAA has no trouble sleeping at night, even with doomsaday rumours of "retrenchment", because there are hundreds of companies throughout the world who will gladly accept their resumes. However, the same can't be said of individuals occupying current management positions (which have nothing to do with flying).

"A fish rots from the head"

[The Flying Circus]

However, the same can't be said of individuals occupying current management positions.

I beg to differ – MOST of them

TFC

[fly nice]

An interesting thought. . .

Does the amount of P.A.Y.E. paid to SARS by SAA employees exceed its losses. After all, some airlines don't have the burden of P.A.Y.E. :ooh:

I'm NOT suggesting that SAA is well run!

Also, if SAA were to disappear, most of the L/R capacity would be provided by airlines from the overseas; OR, Nationwide's B767 would be a very busy bee. :rolleyes: Thus a large percentage of the 10,000 odd jobs would be transferred elsewhere.(if only temporarily) Say 6,000 less homeowners, car owners, VAT payers, etc. would be lost to this economy.

How would this affect my TAX, not to mention the skills drain of tech engineers, aircrew, etc.?

[Avi8tor]

Thus a large percentage of the 10,000 odd jobs would be transferred elsewhere.(if only temporarily)

If with deregulation the playing field had been leveled, we would not have wasted the BILLIONS of ZAR's over the last few yrs. There is NO arguement for throwing good money after bad.

Seem to remember that in 2004 SAA could have given each passenger R245 and told them to fly elsewhere, I would have been better off.

I am not saying the changed face of SA airlines will not come without pain, but if its NOT done, I promise we will be having this same debate every few yrs.

All the 'legacy' carriers have been through this, BA had to go broke twice before it sorted itself out. Italy and Greece are up that tree now.

But the proof is in the eating, look where BA/AF/KLM/LH are now and how ALL the airlines in those countries have prospered. A bankrupt national carrier only stunts the growth of the WHOLE industry.

[divinehover]

I have flown in Afghanistan, in a B1900 doing 100hr a month. Pilots don't get into SAA with a fresh PPL.

[gb346]

Everyone knows that where there is Government involvement, there will always be an issue of mis-spent tax money. :}

I know that almost every employee at SAA would rather have a profitable airline run by competent management than be in the position we find ourselves in presently. :yuk:

I acknowledge that everyone has a right to express opinions on this forum but no matter how many messages detractors post and no matter how many times the staff at SAA want to pull their hair out in frustration at the incompetence of the managers and executives :ugh:, we will be having this same conversation again, and again, and again . . . . .

Its time to get over it.

[Buitenzorg]

Far be it from me to interrupt an amusing willy-waving contest about who’s the best pilot and who works hardest, but something about the initial announcement happened to catch my eye.

Cabin crew: 433
Pilots: 17

Or, put another way, each plane flown by 2 pilots carries 50 cabin crew to look after however many pax can cram themselves into the few remaining seats. Does this announcement then mean


Massive savings will be realized through rationalization of the overstaffed cabin crew department?
Someone has blundered and crisis looms as flights are cancelled for lack of cabin crew?
An artificially created shortage will soon be filled by 400 previously disadvantaged candidates?
This is only the first bunch of retrenchments and the next bunch will include several hundred pilots?

[TooBadSoSad]

Don't read into anything Buitenzorg because you are way off the mark. 17 pilots refers to the number of Durban based pilots who will be affected by the closure of the Durban base, NOT 17 pilots being retrenched!

These pilots will simply be absorbed into the Johannesburg base. SAA is very top-heavy with pilots but overall there is a huge shortage, specifically of entry level pilots for P3 operations. I just ran into a pilot who made over R50,000 in overtime for the three month period ending June 2007.

[Buitenzorg]

So NO pilots being retrenched at all? Then what are you lot getting hot under the collar about?

[TooBadSoSad]

Who's getting hot under the collar?:confused:

[s2h]

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/action/media/downloadFile?media_fileid=355

Privatise SAA to stop needlessly squandering scarce resources

To make the country’s airline industry more responsive to market forces.
Terry Markman*
04 Aug 2007 08:08
SAA should be privatised to make the country’s airline industry more responsive to market forces. This will create a more stable environment and encourage more airlines to enter the market.

The management of a privatised SAA and the private airlines will be able to focus on running their businesses rather than face political issues or spend senior management time dealing with the Competition Commission. Government will become the referee and not be an operator and regulator at the same time. Unfair competition will be eliminated as SAA, unlike the private sector, has its losses paid by taxpayers.

Increased competition from international airlines would benefit all passengers, the tourism industry, and employment in tourism. Just as passengers have benefited from deregulation of domestic air transport, so will international passengers benefit from more competition from international airlines.

The SA airline industry has undergone a major change, probably the biggest change in its 70-year existence, since deregulation of the domestic airline business in the early 90’s. At that stage it was estimated that SAA had more than 95% of the domestic airline market. Since then SAA has lost market share to airlines such as Comair (which in 1990 had one or two per cent of the market), and other newcomers, which are now estimated to have between 50% and 55% of the domestic airline market.

Passengers have benefited enormously from the increase in competition arising out of the deregulation. Prices of air travel have reduced dramatically and frequencies have improved. More passengers than ever before are flying, many of whom could not afford to do so before the deregulation occurred.

At the time of deregulation it seemed likely that SAA privatisation would level out the playing fields. In 1999, 20% was sold to strategic equity partner Swiss Air for R1,4bn, giving SAA a total value of R7bn. When Swiss Air went bankrupt the SA government bought back the shares in 2002 for R382m. While this might appear to reflect a ‘profit’ of R1bn, it really meant that the value of SAA had declined by about 72% - from R7bn to R1,9bn.

SAA’s operating figures over the past six years do not reflect a healthy airline. It is not easy to obtain consistent figures as every year the method of disclosure is changed; the figures invariably incorporate the sale and leaseback of aircraft, or exchange gains, or other revaluations to reflect the most positive situation. In fact, SAA has lost billions of rand. This is in stark contrast to Comair, which has made a profit every year since 1946 when it commenced operating.

In March, the Minister of Public Enterprises told a parliamentary briefing that as the second-oldest commercial carrier in the world, SAA was ‘a national asset that had to be preserved’. In light of the substantial losses SAA should surely be referred to as a liability rather than as an asset.

In July last year Transnet declared that SAA was not part of its core business, cut its losses and sold the airline to the Department of Public Enterprises for R2bn, in the process writing off an R8,4bn loan. The SAA Bill to be passed some time this year will formally sever the airline’s links to Transnet. A major concern about the transfer is that the Department of Public Enterprises will not produce future financial statements and thus there will be no public accounting for future losses.

There is a growing consensus that SAA should be privatised to save taxpayers billions of rand. The CEO of SAA is on record as saying that he would like to see it privatised. However, the Minister of Public Enterprises has said that the airline should remain state-controlled. He says that selling shares on the stock exchange is an attractive idea but the timing is not right as the company is financially weak and will take a few years to turn around. His priority is to stabilise the company’s finances and recapitilise it. The Minister has also written to SAA chairman Jakes Gerwel stating that SAA “cannot and will not be supported at all costs”.

South Africans will benefit substantially if this “national asset” is privatised because taxpayers will no longer have to subsidise the airline. It is estimated that SAA’s losses have exceeded R20bn. These losses, paid for by the SA taxpayer, are made up of an accumulated loss of R11,2bn and an outstanding loan to Transnet of R8,4bn. The loan arose from a R6bn recapitalisation in 2004 and a further net R2.4bn added to equity in 2006.

SAA’s balance sheet is still weak and it remains dependent on taxpayer funding. That the company is again facing a serious financial crisis was revealed last year when the CEO announced that it needed another R4bn ‘recapitalisation package’ as a turnaround strategy – a proposal that apparently has the support of the Minister. Such support is surprising given that external auditors, Deloitte & Touche, reported that SAA spent R283 million ‘without proper controls’ in 2004/5. According to the company’s chairman, Jakes Gerwel, he has “never, or seldom, entered an organisation where systems were so lacking”.

Air travellers are among the wealthier members of society. In SA, we have the strange anomaly of these passengers on loss-making SAA being subsidised by poor taxpayers who never travel by air. While this may not be government’s intention, it is the consequence of current policy. Does it really make any sense for government to continue struggling to run an airline serving predominantly rich people at massive losses when private operators, if permitted, can and do provide all the economy’s air travel needs efficiently and profitably? The answer must be a resounding ”NO”.

Privatising the airline will save taxpayers from the cost of subsidising its perpetual losses. And the fiscus will be able to reduce taxes as a result of the combination of increased tax revenue from a profitable privatised SAA plus the losses they will no longer have to pay.

* Terry Markman is a consultant.

[Sir Osis of the river]

Top heavy actually means they have too many very highly paid pilots, (Overtime of R50 000???), being used to do the job a Lower paid P3 should be doing.

Whats wrong with this picture? :hmm:

[JetNut]

There are some pilots at SAA who've been with the company since 1968. You do the math!

[Sir Osis of the river]

I did not want to say it, but jetnut did,

Surely pensioning them off is cheaper all round than paying these huge amounts of overtime, and their salaries to boot!

Could probably employ three P3's for the same money. ( And before anybody tries the experience card, A p3 is there to build experience, not provide it)

[JetNut]

I am by no means advocating getting rid of the old-timers, I'll probably be one someday (they do however, deserve what they earn, simply based on their unfaultering and blinding faith in the company...since 1968). All I'm saying is that management (especially at SAA) must factor these costs into their income/loss strategic planning, and stop being babies about "how much pilots salaries cost", as being an airline pilot is a lifelong career for 90% joining a national carrier, and its not changing any time soon, unless the geniuses doing the (mis)management want to fly these aeroplanes.

Airlines throughout the world operating 744's, A340's, etc. have no problem compensating their pilots appropriately.

if a pilot was to make fundamentally flawed decisions in the execution of his job....everyone knows what will happen. Yet, when top management screw-up big time...they restructure! Go figure.

[4HolerPoler]

Interesting article in Finweek, with some very :eek: figures -

What's eating SAA?

If you were asked to list five things that are wrong with loss-making national carrier South African Airways, you'd probably come up with a fair few more than that - and many of them would be accurate. While rising fuel costs and competition from low-cost airlines go some way to explain the R883m loss by SAA last year, new research by Synovate, the market research arm of London-based Aegis plc, suggests the core of the issue is that the airline has too many inadequately qualified staff for the number of routes it operates. It compared SAA with its partners in the global Star Alliance grouping. Of the Star Alliance airlines with fewer than 60 aircraft in their fleets, SAA has the fewest number of destinations - just 34. The researchers point to SA's geography and the fact that many of the airline's most costly flights are long haul, which affects its ability to up frequencies with the fleet it has.

Compared with SAA, Poland's national carrier LOT, which also has fewer than 60 aircraft, serves 58 destinations. However, LOT does have the advantage of being closer to its key destinations. SAA operates 1,7 aircraft/destination - a ratio similar to that of the considerably larger US Airways and SAS Scandinavian Airlines, whereas LOT, TAP Portugal and Austrian Airlines have less than one aircraft/destination. The big difference comes in the ratio of staff/aircraft used by the respective groups. SAA has 11 000 staff for 58 planes to 34 destinations. LOT has 3 500 employees for 51 aircraft and 58 destinations. SAA has the third highest number of staff/aircraft in its fleet, behind Thai Airways and Lufthansa. With 190 employees/aircraft, SAA is considerably less efficient than SAS Scandinavian, which employs 42/aircraft and Spainair, with 51/aircraft. While air industry insiders point to the fact that SAA's pilots and technical staff are among the world's best, the report says global airlines employ more skilled staff than SAA does. Some airlines require on board service staff to have university degrees. The implication is that more productive airlines employ fewer, but better qualified staff. Says the report: "South Africa appears to be slow to catch up to global standards of technology. Does SAA use sufficient technology? Perhaps SAA needs to hire staff, whereas administrative jobs globally are conducted by means of technology?"

[JetNut]

Ladies and gentlemen...breaking news:

SAA is a section 21 company that pays taxes.:ugh:


I like the part about "...best trained pilots in the world..." ,they're right.:D

[fly nice]

4HP, I agree with the sentiment that is the staff numbers/ qualifications, which is a legacy of past and present powers. I do, however, feel the clever boys from FW missed a point or two.

The 3600 SAA technical employees(largest employment group), in addition to maintaining the SAA fleet, Look after Comair/ Kulula (soon entirely). They also do labour intensive D checks for Corsair, AF, LH, and a couple more. They have also started doing B737 freighter conversions, the first client being TNT. Are these staff/ aircraft numbers factored in? Doubt it.

I bet the FW boys don't have clue that Comair, for one, hardly have a technical section. Or flight performance for that matter. Or that SAA dispatch serve Emirates, Air Mauritius, to name a few.

DJ, could you give an indication what the crew demands are on long range vs domestic esp taking crew slipping into account(dkr-jfk)?

Study the effect of the US Airways hub system (La Guardia/
Charlotte/ Orlando) on routes/ airplane. FW Use destinations/ airplane. Similarly SAA LHR, FRA and DUR are three destinations from JNB. They are also served from CPT, so 6 routes, 3 destinations. Polish rfly from a single hub. Therefore, EVERY destination is ONE route. For US Airways, this is vastly different. ie Chicago served directly fro La Guardia, Charlotte and Orlando. FW still think destinations is the best way to go?

[SAArab]

You all seem to have lost the plot. We know clearly where the problems lie in SAA - Its pay back time.
1. Your freely elected goverment placed the managers in SAA if they want to appoint such monkeys to run the company then they must pay the bill.
2. To say SAA pilots earn to much is a loss to the whole of aviation in Southern Africa, there salaries are based on international norms. The problem is that the other airlines salaries are bad and the pilots with the Comairs, 1Time have not bothered to fight for there rights.:D:O

[JetNut]

....there salaries are based on international norms.


...and when union fees cost almost R1000 a month, they had better be earning the good cash! because salaries at internationaly competitive levels do not come cheap.

The regulations that govern SAA pilot salaries are based on over 20 years of hard negotiations, blood, sweat and tears. That is a fact that must be taken into account when uninformed, "take the moral high-ground", cry-baby, whingers go on an SAA pilot bashing spree.

[Avi8tor]

This is not about bashing SAA pilots, its the WHOLE industry that gets to suffer. If SAA was making a profit, a real profit, they can pay what they like.That would be market driven. And please, this is NOT about pilots salaries at SAA, This is about the WHOLE company, top to bottom.

The regulations that govern SAA pilot salaries are based on over 20 years of hard negotiations, blood, sweat and tears. That is a fact that must be taken into account when uninformed, "take the moral high-ground", cry-baby, whingers go on an SAA pilot bashing spree.

Here's the deal, cut the apron strings from the governemnt coffers, then lets see who does there whinging then?

2. To say SAA pilots earn to much is a loss to the whole of aviation in Southern Africa, there salaries are based on international norms. The problem is that the other airlines salaries are bad and the pilots with the Comairs, 1Time have not bothered to fight for there rights.

Please refer to the following and tell me where the international norms are
http://www.willflyforfood.cc/airlinepilotpay/Emirates_Pilot_Pay.php

Remember the reason the other airlines cant pay like SAA cause the have to compete with a subsidised SAA.

Let the market forces play out. The WHOLE industry will be better off in the long run. Protectionism has never been the answer.

[777Contrail]

My take on this.

Management. That's all.

SAA is managed like a long drop in the veld.

Will it change? NO

SAA is a mass equity employer and will continue to be so, at management level - even more so.

So effective downsizing will not happen and the rot will continue.

(Grounding 747's off routes that BA, Air France, KLM, Lufthansa etc. are using the same a/c on is simple mismanagement of the a/c AND the route.)

What's the end of it all?

Like all the rest of the infrastructure in SA that's falling apart - SAA will go the same way.
It's a VERY sick horse! The cure is some painfull medicine that's not going to be given. Shooting the horse will also not happen. So just let it slowly grow old and lame until it falls over. Then flog it while its down untill it dies. Then hang the skin over a wooden horse and call that your national flag carier aka Namibia, Zimbabwe, etc.

On salaries. SAA is the reason that other pilots in SA earn more than school teachers (which is nothing), imagine if all SA pilots were paid according to Comair's pay! - That will be a sad day!

If I was 62 and someone was willing to give me a bag of $$$ every month I'll take it!!

[Avi8tor]

Just a suggestion.

Get it out of goverment hands and list it on the stock exchange. Then we can stop blaming government interference?

[Q4NVS]

Last working day for those that may be retrenched will be 30 September 2007.

Any update on the entire process, or will it be completed post 2010..?:=

[Gyro Nut]

Skygods tell me that the Voluntary Service Package has been offered to them via a letter that needs to be signed by those that want to go. It is happening...

Also heard rumours about 20-30 pilots leaving SAA. Not substantiated yet.

[Deskjocky]

Initial VSP cut off for managers was the 3rd, strong uptake. Of those who chose to stay about half will have to reapply for their jobs. Interviews start on the 10th and will be finished by the 17th. Those not sucessfull will also be asked to leave by the 30th of September. Some deprtments havent started the process but will do so shortly.

Those that stay will probably face between a 10 and 25% pay cut as well as see a reduction in their benefits like leave etc.

Happy days.

[taperlok]

On the question of EFP. As i recall that system was negociated by SAAPA to force the company to employ more of you whining SAA bashers. If I was paying an EFP bill as stated before, damn sure I'd employ cheaper pilots. Management in there wisdom find it cheaper to pay EFP. The only way to fix this problem and stop the rot is:
Close the gates tomorrow.
none of the currently employed get reemployed. the only way to stop this cancer.

At SAA its the tail wagging the dog. full stop

Take Nationwide. Bricknell must be the most unpopular guy in aviation. Always hear the pilot group complaining about him. If his pilots got half a chance they would be trying to tell him how to run his airline. from fitter and turner at railways to airline owner Vernon is doing quite fine. Maybe SAA needs him to run the place.:*

[Avi8tor]

This is NOT about bashing SAA or its pilots!! This is about SAA's inability to make a profit with full aircraft. Which means SAA is always at the tax payers door with its begging bowl.

Its an airline NOT a flying club!!!!

So SAA has 1 or both of 2 problems, costs too high and/or fares too cheap. If it ups the fares, it dips out on market share.........so go figure.

This has been coming for years. So why all the surprised faces?

SAAPA and the other unions has taken the view that the government will never take them on, so they have decided to screw the pooch to death.

A 21% increase last year, when they know SAA is bankrupt and now they wonder why there might be lay off's?

Management has tried to hide the losses with accounting gymnastics and doogey short term solutions. ie. aircraft finance and selling assets etc. This has been going on since pre Coleman days. Rape the company and pay yourself a massive bonus.

I still say that this 'restructuring' is doomed to fail and we will still be having threads like this in 5 yrs.

The solution is not to close the gates and re hire. The solution is get it to a manageable size, and sell it off. This has happened all thru europe.

I would hate to see 900 pilots on the street.

[JetNut]

so avi8tor...
would you suggest a move to the sandpit then, before i find myself on the streets of joburg selling cell-phone chargers? or is the latter actually the better option...

[Avi8tor]

No pilots from SAA will ever sell chargers on William Nicol. When the dust settles, it will largely be status quo.

When push comes to shove, government don't have what it takes to sort the problem out. SAA will continue in governement hands and still be in the same boat in 5 yrs time.

I know what SHOULD happen at SAA, but KNOW it won't happen in my lifetime.

[Frogman1484]

Jetnut how good are you at selling phone chargers?

The way it is going that might be a good skill to have mate!

Look around you, what do you see? South Africa is changing faster than you realize. SAA needs to change rapidly or you might as well go and join Avi8tor with your phone chargers.

Ask any of the flying public and they will tell you that SAA has gone from an airline everyone was proud to fly and loved to one that everyone loves to hate.

Once a brand has that stigma, it is going to be difficult to change.

[FlingWingKing]

For someone who decided to leave South Africa for greener pastures you sure seem obsessed about the wellfare of this country and SAA....are you secretly hoping things will change for the better so you can come back?

You are forever trying to tell all our idiots who decided to stay that we are doomed to fail....enough already...we get your point. Things aren't all that wonderful here, but name a place where that is the case.

Everything in life is balanced. You might have better job security and a safe enviroment (crime) where you are, but you will always be an expat. You will probably always feel that you don't belong, so your sacrifice to go is my sacrifice to stay.

We live in interesting and very exciting times in aviation.....how long it's going to last depends on the oil price.

I for one is coping with crime around me and the uncertainty that the ANC precidential elections might bring, but at least I am still doing what South Africans love to do. You are coping with diffirent challenges being a expat....so are we really in such diffirent situations?

[MBDriver]

All the SAA pilots got a letter yesterday saying that the company has to get rid of 270 pilots. That is over 33%. Must be a very nice place to work for at the moment with all the uncerainty.

[taperlok]

At the moment the figure is 17. If the extra saving of R638 mil is not achieved the threat is to retrench 2238 extra employees , which will include 225? pilots.

Not a nice position. I'm already looking for work elsewhere. Tired of being threatened all the time.Neighbours violently attached last week. The Africanised dudes can keep Africa. Let them rot in their own sh@#:mad:

[bianchi]

I don't think one must put to much value on Khaya's thread to dump 225 pilots in the market should the pilots not come with a''clean''slate on there employment conditions etc.
That's just one of his dirty methods to cause futher unhappiness within the SAA work group.The more he can get the different departments to point a finger at one another the more he hope to get from them. SAA's poor financial position is directly to be blamed to the managers who run it ! --- w.o.w KHAYA who fail to deliver !!!

Just my thought on this ?????

[bianchi]

Which statement are you reffering to Suitecaseman ?

[beechbum]

Ill feeling and uncertaintanty about ones future is demorolising, creates lack of motivation and has a very negative effect on productivity, not to mention safety on the flight-deck. A very poor state of affairs
Couldn't agree with you more but we've all been told to keep our heads high and to not try and dwell on the negatives, as difficult as it may be.
Scare tactics here, is what springs to mind. Create a feeling of insecurity and Khaya hopes that with this in mind the pilots will relinquish certain of the agreements.
A look at trimming his fat paypacket first would show in earnest that he was interested in stemming SAA's losses...start at the top and work your way down, I say!
It's a frustrating excercise but hoping all ends up better in the long term.
Holding thumbs!!!

[Fluffy flyer]

This was sent to me yesterday..............


SAAPA:

SAAPA BULLETIN

07 September 2007

Dear Members,

Many of you will have read the latest press reports regarding possible further retrenchments at SAA. The news was broken to the unions at the SAA Restructuring Steering Committee which met on Wednesday 5 September. The meeting was chaired by Khaya and was attended by all the SAA GMs. Johan Kotze, John Harty (for some of the time) and I attended on behalf of SAAPA. The meeting lasted from 09:30 in the morning until about 15:30, during which time, unbeknown to us, SAA issued press statements regarding the retrenchments.

The essence of the meeting was to serve notice on the unions that unless the infamous ‘gap’ of R638m is not achieved there will be up to a further 2232 retrenchments, this is in addition to the about 300 management retrenchments and 711 ‘affected” employees which have already been identified. The number of 2232 includes 225 pilots. The Company is saying that it is essential to standardise employment conditions and benefits for all SAA employees and a standard conditions of employment discussion document which they want to apply to everyone was tabled at the meeting. If implemented, this would form a policy document which would be subject to change at management’s discretion. The Company’s position is that the profitability of SAA will be unsustainable unless conditions of service can be renegotiated for all employees.

It is clear that the notice of additional retrenchments has been served on the unions to put pressure on the pilots who management believes are not coming to the party in terms of making concessions and accepting standard conditions of employment. Their tactic is clearly one of divide and rule – a tactic which hopefully will not succeed – we do not yet really know how the other unions will respond.

The SAAPA representatives at the meeting responded very strongly saying that we are prepared to make meaningful and significant contributions aimed at closing the gap, but that we will definitely not relinquish our agreements. We pointed out that in other international airline restructuring situations, pilots had relaxed their agreements and made concessions, but had never been expected to accept common service conditions. We stated furthermore that we believed the Company was being opportunistic by using the restructuring process to scrap the pilots’ agreements.

So what does this mean going forward?

The negotiating team will continue to follow the member resolution taken at the AGM last month, i.e. that we must not relinquish our agreements but that we should find ways of making concessions which could assist in closing the gap.

Does this latest move mean that our negotiations have been derailed? Hopefully not, and we will still be holding discussions with management on 17 and 19 September which are geared towards identifying cost savings for the Company.

Ana McAhron Schulz, the labour advisor from US ALPA, will be in S Africa next week to advise labour on the way forward and she will definitely be an asset in this process.

Packages: Application forms for voluntary severance packages have now been issued. There are still queries regarding the package which we are attempting to resolve as a matter of extreme urgency.

As soon as we have further information we will notify you.

Regards,

Cathy Bill

[bianchi]

SC ,

What I mean when i say''he hopes to get diff dept to point fingers at one another .......'' is: He want to create an impression amongst the varies dept's that it is the pilots who are to be blamed for the mess SAA finds itself in,that way he canvase more support and hope to take the pilots on that way. He was sent from hell to come and''fix''the pilots,but is having his hands full to get what he wants.........removal of conditions of employment etc.

The fact that the moral is low at SAA is true,but one got to(or try at least try to) stay focus and work this one through!

[nugpot]

I think the morale is low as well..........

I don't normally defend my SAA colleagues, but in this case the strategy seems to be an attempt to blame the pilots for the woes of the national carrier.

Unfortunately, it does not have to be true to serve Kaya's purpose. To the SAA pilots - Good luck!

Maybe sense and fairness will prevail.

[divinehover]

I am rostered for 98.5hrs for Sept. Can someone please explain to me how they can afford to retrench 200+ drivers. If they get rid of all 800 of us think how much they will save. What a load of crap. SAA's overall salary bill is between 5% and 7% less than the other major carriers(relative). Labour problem? Management problem? Exorborant lease costs. Management or Labour problem. Loss of market share. Management or Labour problem?

Cutting Labour costs will have the same effect as recapitalisation without proper reforms. SAA's labour is not expensive when compared to it's competitors (there is most certainly room for improvement though). Labour is an easy target to save a quick R600 mill. It will not make the company profitable in 20yrs time though. That will take leadership, vision and a senior management structure that the staff believe in. At the moment I see no leadership (not to be confused with management) and no vision.

[Bahraingeneric]

Good Luck SAA guys - cannot believe this is happening to you!!!
Bad sign of what is going on in SA!!

[ByAirMail]

Beechbum

Couldn't agree with you more but we've all been told to keep our heads high and to not try and dwell on the negatives, as difficult as it may be

I worked for company’s that went through hard times and we all took cuts, saved money where we could and helped to pull through. But this was a team effort, we were all in it together and the whole of the aviation industry looked bleak.

It is not possible to keep your chin up if you see every company around you blossom and you know you’re in this only because of those same people demanding concessions from you.

[beechbum]

By Airmail,
Yep I see your point but what would you like us to do? Walk through the corridors with heads down letting this effect the safety of every flight we conduct on a daily basis. It's a hard position that we all find ourselves in and quite honestly wish we were'nt but if we drag our arses around what is that going to achieve and prove? Yep you right everyone else in the industry is booming around us and we question daily...but you know the answers to that,that both past and present have a hand in our woes today!

[JetNut]

why is it that I was called to do a flight on my day off when the company has too many pilots. Needless to say, I did do the flight because I'm such a nice guy :hmm:

Divinehover, the basic premise of your post is glaringly obvious to only the pilots in SAA, which will continue ad nauseam. And is typical of any parastatal run by a bunch of politically appointed buffoons.

Ah...well, at least we get to spend 98 hours in an awesome piece of machinery, can't fault that, and, oh yeah, the coffee is still good (but not that sh!t in the blue packets) and the hosties keen (...the ugly ones :}).

[ByAirMail]

What will pull you through is unity, 100% membership in SAAPA, attend every meeting and be pro active. Show these guys that they are dealing with professionals and don’t be intimidated.

It’s tough but these are the times that real character will show. They don’t want to admit it but the crew is the heart of the airline

[Gyro Nut]

According to the seniority system, if it's last in, first out, it would mean the bottom 225 pilots would have to go, a huge percentage of which must be cadets (not sure exactly what percentage). After spending all that cash outlay on training them, the pilot pool would return to a 99% non-disadvantaged group again. Not too sure if the goverment would like that very much.

I would say the SAA pilots have them in a check mate. Go skygods!

[ByAirMail]

Jetnut

Ah...well, at least we get to spend 98 hours in an awesome piece of machinery, can't fault that, and, oh yeah, the coffee is still good (but not that sh!t in the blue packets) and the hosties keen (...the ugly ones

98hours is way to much - me 85hours, then big $$$ !!
Awesome machinery -with loads of new ones on order !!
Crayfish and caviar portions is huge !!
Girls -hmm- what goes on trip stay on trip !!

[Avi8tor]

I am rostered for 98.5hrs for Sept.

Is that logbook hrs or credit hrs? Remember u can only do about 84hrs every 28 days before u run out for the yr, so a slack month coming somewhere.

Personally I don't believe all the doom and gloom. This is NOT a Delta airlines case, their not about to trash the pension fund etc. They are trying to cut costs down to a reasonable level not save it from bankrupcy. The tax payer has deep pockets.

And without saying 'I told you so', but this has been years in coming.

Just a small sacrifice in benefits and a possible salary share scheme will keep everybody employed till the correct numbers are reached. 'B' scales for new employees, different rebate policy etc.

Or take the other route, stare them in the eyes and see who blinks first.

[taperlok]

two things.
The retrenchment is supposed to be according to the regulating agreement.
If they cancel all the SAAPA agreements. They can hire at will. this will get around the problem of the cadets and women ( designated group). in that ways its cadets and designated group in, white males out. Go SAA !!

second: you can only lead by example. A few weeks ago khaya was interviewed on summit TV. When asked if he was taking a pay cut. He said NO. Apparently hasn't had an increase in 3 years. I happened to watch the interview No rumour.:mad:

[Avi8tor]

When asked if he was taking a pay cut. He said NO. Apparently hasn't had an increase in 3 years.

Well the pilots can't say the same now, can they?

Unilateral action like cancelling the agreements will lead to a PROTECTED strike. Then SAAPA has them over a barrel.

[taperlok]

Not really. If things go to arbitration and SAAPA is issued with a strike certificate, SAA is issued with a lockout certificated. So things could really get interesting.

This is now rumour. Khaya is aiming for this. If he can lock the pilots out, then it becomes a case of . If you don't sign our new agreement you don't work. The vast majority of the guys can't afford to be without a salary for an extended period of time.

[Avi8tor]

The airline could never stand for any length of time, the cabin attendant strike proved that. Lockout is NOT an option.

And is typical of any parastatal run by a bunch of politically appointed buffoons.

You are quite right, and this has been the problem since SAR&H.

The 'politically appointed buffoons' have allowed the staff to be underworked and over paid. To hide this fact, the 'politically appointed buffoons' have entered into dodgy aircraft leases etc.

This all should have been sorted out back in the days of the sale/lease back deal to safair in the mid/late '90's.

The writing has been on the wall for the better part of 10yrs. SAA has never made a 'real' profit. The unions have decided to poke the pooch till it died.

[JetNut]

Leadership is lacking, what SAA needs is a :

Celebrity CEO

Even if he/she is a complete moron, can't be worse then what we have already.

[SAArab]

What a load of bull. Khaya and his cronnies should be getting the chop. He got the company in the position its in. With Employment Equity and BEE where you need to employ 3 baffons to do one persons job what do you expect. The Goverment employed these monkeys they must pay, as simple as that. There idea is to close the doors of SAA reemploy all the staff only blacks need apply make the company a BEE identity. Did you not know Sekwale thinks he is the Branson of Africa. I believe the SAA pilots should walk away from this and start there own airline.:D

[fluffyfan]

I wonder if Khaya and his team of management idiots have found a way to fly aircraft without pilots? because 225 missing F/O's would be interesting, I suppose 225 Captains would have to be demoted to crew the aircaft.

These clowns are so transparent, its obviousley there big scare tactic, I suggest SAAPA calls them on this and we go to war.

[Avi8tor]

Khaya and his cronnies should be getting the chop. He got the company in the position its in.
That is so way over simplistic. This mess has been coming for years!! Mike Myberg was already aware of the problems way back then.

While it was the good ol' SAR&H and pilots had the same grade as senior train drivers, life was easy. The aircraft were paid for cash, all the ticket sales had to do was put in fuel and pay salaries. The fleet was new with little maintainance.

Then the boere ran out of money and the 'struggle' ended. They left the new SA with huge debts, Pension funds etc. That meant SAA had to start selling of the aircraft to fund running expenses. This was around the time the overpaid/underworked culture started.

The rest, as they say, is history.

I wonder if Khaya and his team of management idiots have found a way to fly aircraft without pilots?

I suspect they aren't, I think its called MANGO.

[reptile]

This is certainly a very sad state of affairs. The way I see it:

1) This is a problem many years in the making. The writing has been on the wall for a while but no one has been willing or able to do anything about it. I think Avi8tor got it 100% right.

2) An over zealous pursuit of equity targets left the company top heavy and with a management core lacking in the experience and qualification to run an international airline in a competitive world.

3) The fact that government has always been very willing and quick to bail the airline out of financial difficulty meant that the drive for efficiency only equated to window dressing at the best of times.

4) The lack of a requirement for competitiveness (courtesy of taxpayers footing the bill) meant that employees became lax and developed a devil may care attitude when it came to the wellbeing of the company. Exorbitant demands were made and in most case were met. When the CEO and his executive core demands the same salary and perks earned as those running large airlines (an no, SAA is not a large airline in the whole scheme of things), you just know trouble is brewing. The same goes for the pilot group with ridiculous MOP agreement.

This story
(http://http://www.ongoing-tales.com/SERIALS/oldtime/FAIRYTALES/goose.html) and its consequences has been told to millions of children for over 1500 years.

And just to be absolutely clear (seeing that it’s mostly pilots roaming these pages and therefore most likely to go ballistic), I am referring to SAA as a whole and not singling out a specific group of employees.

[Ketek400]

Good luck guys. Hope things work out well. Dont wish this onto anyone.

[fluffyfan]

Ketek400 good time to have a roadshow....I think you may get a whole bunch of SAA applicants.

DJ....as I said...you may have started something you may not be able to stop, even though I said I was not interested in the desert, I think I may have seen the light.