Re-instatement of Military Hospitals

[Brat]

Please excuse if this is a replication, or remove if it is against any of Pprune's rules. It is of concern and might be of interest to the users of this Forum, though we hope that nobody has the need.

Copy of a letter recieved, thought it might get some results here.
Although the ref is to soldiers, (JT and NV were), both sentiment, and petition, however applies to all members of the Armed Services.

From: Julian Thompson
To: Nick Vaux
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:57 AM
Subject: Petition to re-instate military hospitals

If you have one to two minutes and agree with this could you please
sign the petition at the link below?

For every death you hear about in Iraq or Afghanistan there are
countless more casualties that never get reported in the news. The
current situation sees injured soldiers being brought back to the UK and put in random hospitals, often away from where their friends and family live.
These soldiers, who are often on their own, are put in wards with normal
civilian patients who have no concept of the environment they have just been extracted from. There have also been a number of cases of these injured soldiers being verbally abused by Islamic civilian patients when they
realise they have just returned from Iraq/Afghanistan.
Military Hospitals in the UK are needed so that injured soldiers can
be cared for in a safe and dignified environment with staff and fellow
patients who understand the situation that they have just returned from.
Please take one or two minutes to fill out the Downing Street petition
on behalf of our injured soldiers bearing in mind we all know what the
damage of war can do. Our comrades returning from Iraq & Afghanistan with
horrific injuries to a health care situation that is a joke. With our troops
being deployed in greater numbers we must go back to the dedicated care that they fully deserve - so please lend your support to the petition to the
PrimeMinister on the Downing Street Petition Web site.
The petition is:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to bring back
dedicated
Military Hospitals to provide adequate facilities (non NHS) for members
of
the Armed Forces who are injured or disabled in the course of their
duties'
Please visit before the close on 6th August 2007.
If you do sign you will receive an email from No 10 with a link to
confirm
your signature.

PLEASE PASS ON TO AS MANY CONTACTS IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK AS YOU SEE FIT

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Forces-Hospitals/

[betty swallox]

Brat,
Good call...something that has been close to my heart for a while.
Please sign folks. The problems the guys are coming back with (at least they are coming back) is, in my opinion, the thin end of the wedge.

[Green Flash]

Sadly, I suspect any re-instated military hospital might need a a large psychiatric wing. And SSAFA needs a massive funding boost too. You listening, Brown(e)? No, thought not.

[vecvechookattack]

Agree entirely.... Don't, for goodness sake bring back military hospitals...Knock them down and build cheap, affordable housing on them....and maybe a couple of schools.

Military hospitals were the pitts, filthy, unkempt, victorian pit holes. Please, Des, dont waste any money on military hospitals but instead please can we have a couple of more helicopters and maybe some NVG in the Merlin may be nice...or even some flying boots so that I don't have to buy my own again...that may be nice.

[vecvechookattack]

Blimey, thats not bad. Its quite good for the MOD to provide maternity facilities or did you have to fork out for it yourself?

[Chugalug2]

Blimey, thats not bad. Its quite good for the MOD to provide maternity facilities or did you have to fork out for it yourself?

Nope, all planned, booked & free

Ditto vecvec, eldest delivered (admittedly during a shift change!) at PMRAFH Halton, shortly after I had PVR'd! Patients outnumbered by staff, wife allowed to stay for a week, instead of hatch'em and despatch'em on offer at alternative NHS venue. Youngest emerged under latter system as we were now out of range of military hospitals before they moved out of everybody else's!
Have signed petition but the words "hell" and "freeze-over" come to mind!

[John Farley]

vecvec
Its an age thing. We even had a PMRNS maternity unit as part of our Station sick quarters in 1959.
Many aspects of service life have improved enormously since those days but the odd one has gone downhill.

[john50uk]

Both of my sons were born in BMH Rinteln in Germany. The service there was excellent.:ok:

[The Poison Dwarf]

Mrs Poison Dwarf was in PMRAFH Wroughton (twice) and I was in RNH Stonehouse (once).

In all three cases the staff to patient ratio was such as to make the NHS green with envy.

Agreed that Stonehouse was a bit Victorian (in fact, as I remember, it predated the Victorian era by many years, perhaps even Napoleonic) however Wroughton was one of the most tranquil places I have ever visited, it would have been an ideal recuperation centre for returning wounded, whether their injuries were physical or psychological.

In its last days, Wroughton accepted NHS patients and there was even a television item on a patient from South Wales who was being treated there, so it was a viable proposition.

The real scandal is that a significant proportion of the hospital had been refurbished immediately prior to its closure and much equipment was either sold off cheaply or left to rot.

Unfortunately it's now a conference centre!!

TPD

[tonker]

I was born at Wroughton where my father was a Radioolog...(took x-rays) and always felt the place to be spotless as i wizzed around in my socks as a 6 year old.

Indeed on a Sunday night to take some pressure off PMH in Swindon, NHS patients were allowed if they wanted to go to Wroughton instead. The rumours of people holding out with all sorts of ailments until Sunday, were legend in Swindon at the time.

[Brat]

Well chook, suppose it depends on what you've sampled. If you can count on remaining sound in wind and limb and dodging the stray bits and pieces that occasionaly fly around, flying boots cheap housing and schools sounds good. If you've sampled the goods, RAFH Nocton Hall, RN Haslar V Hammersmith Charing Cross St Mary's and Lon University, the contest was no contest. While gratefull for what is available, NHS versus Service doesn't/didn't compare. When service people come back in a bad way 'family' provide the best care. The day to day ward care in todays NHS apart from the few bright shining exceptions is diabolical with standards that seem to be plummeting by the day. Behaviour that simply wouldn't be tolerated in any service establishment is the norm. Simple ward cleanliness is an exception.
But as I said better than nothing.

[Grey'npointy]

vecvechookattack says:"Military hospitals were the pitts, filthy, unkempt, victorian pit holes. Please, Des, dont waste any money on military hospitals but instead please can we have a couple of more helicopters and maybe some NVG in the Merlin may be nice...or even some flying boots so that I don't have to buy my own again...that may be nice".

What rot. I attended Ely, Wroughton and Halton. All were spotless and run highly efficiently. The service was excellent and waiting times on referral from one's own medical centres non-existent.

Sadly, I cannot see any funding being allocated to such a plan. Isn't the last one left - Haslar - closing about now?

As an aside, how do you insert quotes into responses?

GnP

[Beeayeate]

Both my son and daughter were born at RAF Ely, a more efficient hospital you would be hard pushed to find even today.

Glad in a way really. Wife was looked after exceedingly well. But mostly because a Winco wouldn't let me be present at either of the births. Both effectively said that the nurses had enough to do without having to keep an eye on me when the 'messy' time came. Very grateful for that. ;)



:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

GreynPointy, two ways.

Click REPLY then change the "1" in the address bar to a "0" (easy)

or use HTML

viz and (quote] and [/quote)but use square brackets not round.

[Roadster280]

I've a longish list of military hospital experience -

RAF Wroughton for my wisdom teeth, along with half a ward of civvies

RAF Wegberg to have pins and plates put in a broken leg

RAF Wegberg to have them come out again

DKMH Catterick for another broken leg

Despite my legs being made of twiglets it seems, I found the military hospital system to be superb. Agree ref the comments on Wroughton being refurbed prior to closure. Waste, waste, waste.

Although not a hospital, I think RAF Wegberg is still part of the BFG health system.

Bring them back!!!

[john50uk]

I was present at the birth of my first son, but not through choice!
Having arrived at BMH Rinteln I was confronted with a matronly looking nurse who asked me if I was the husband of Mrs *****, I said yes, "Right put these on (mask &gown) now get in there and tell her to push".
Great experience, would do it all again:)

Have recently spent four days in a NHS hospital in Coventry, which I can only describe as like spending four days at a fogbound aiport:*

[Tigs2]

VVCA
That was really not a nice reply! They did the best they could under the circumstances. The Mil hospitals were great, were you ever treated at one??

[FantomZorbin]

Vecvechookattack - you're wrong in my experience too.

Son aged <3yrs reported by disinterested NHS GP as having a heart murmur - appointment at Halton within 7 days, specialist, ECG, X-ray and Consultant all done within 2 hours! A fantastic, caring, professional service that has never been bettered.

Halton hospital now lies empty and in an advanced state of decay :*:ugh:

[BEagle]

You're missing one essential point....

Ely, Wegberg, Wroughton, Halton, Nocton Hall - all meant a plentiful supply of compliant PMRAFNS sisters.........:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

And what use would they be to you at your time of life Beag's............although I suppose catheter, bag and empty could be of some use to you in your German care home :E

[Double Zero]

Well no matter how clean they were, they couldn't be any worse than my area's HQ emergency hospital at Redhill, also a total b**tard place to get to at the best of times unless unlucky enough to pull the air ambulance straw, and a very long way from some of its catchment area.

When I had the pleasure of being there a few years ago I found unchanged sheets with bloodstains, used dressings under the bed, only 1 w/c working for hundreds of people, old ladies stowed away in beds under windows that wouldn't shut ( it was literally freezing outside ) - and just to cap off the atmosphere the lady next to me, a friend of a good friend of mine, expired next to me as she'd been delayed too long by the Doctors getting her there !

A very practical example of military hospitals - Haslar at Gosport.

For anyone who hasn't been to Gosport 'Island' by road, the traffic is atrocious, funnelled into one road on & off which is often at a crawl.

Haslar treated the whole highly populated area, civil & military alike - now, again unless one hits the jackpot to beat the traffic by being badly injured enough to get an air ambulance - or possibly does it at sea to get SAR - it's still the grim environs of Q.A, Portsmouth, where one can queue up with the nuts who have parts of the dodgy nightclub they were smashing up still embedded.

That's from personal experience too - must be more choosy where I break a toe on my boat next time ! If I'd known what was to happen I wouldn't have bothered ( and no I didn't call SAR ! ).

At Chichester nearby, on another occasion my girlfiend received fantastic treatment in a worrying situation and I can't say enough good about St.Richards - so they're trying to close at least the A&E part, meaning people are supposed to drive to Worthing - hang on they're closing that too...:ugh:

[Jackonicko]

My mum and my first girlfriend (separate people, lest anyone think that I'm Welsh) both died at Halton, where the care they received was unbelievably good, and where conditions could not have been further removed from those described by vecvechookattack.

Quite apart from the care given to service personnel and dependents, Halton's 'spare capacity' was used by the local NHS, making it a superb resource for the community as well as for the forces.

And as someone pointed out, it's standing empty now, and could be brought back if the money and the will were available.

Pointless selling the land, as it would simply revert to the Rothschilds, with no gain to the exchequer except in tax - and in getting something off the books for the sake of RAB.

[Double Zero]

So it would revert to the Rothschilds, mean land available and pay a token bit of tax ?

You've answered it yourself I'm afraid, ' Sod the plebs, I go private, and my chum is ever so grateful...'

[tacr2man]

There is a very modern hospital sitting empty at Upper Heyford, together with bowling alley, shops fuel station etc, There are also blocks of appartments that had been totally modernised, just before the USAF left
They are not being maintained at all, the MOD will probably wait till they all fall down and then sell the site to somebodys mate whois a porperty developer
Not that i'm being cynical.

By the way there is a perfectly good airport facility , less than a mile from M40 and London/Birmingham railway link at the smae location

What a F&*^%^& liberty as someone would say!!!

[air pig]

Infrastructure can easily be built, but staffing the system is the problem, with all the diverse skills in medical, nursing and support that are required on a day to day basis. the second question is where to locate the hospital, in a big city, with all the attendant security problems but close to other partner hospitals to provide clinical support, or near to the big airfields, both remote and difficult to get too.

Staffing is the big problem and the size of such a hospital to be viable would I suspect have to have 400 to 600 beds. Where do you recruit such numbers from to open such a unit, inevitably purple in structure, but with the present situation within medical and nurse training not really realistic now or in the future.

I am afraid we stuck with the present system and as I have said in previous posts one we are not liable to get out of until or if the higher echelons of DMS rattle a few cages and the "politicians" make a decision. Neither is likely especially following the remarks of the Surgeon General in relation to the deployment of dedicated medical evacuation helicopters into the combat areas, what hope a dedicated hospital ???

NOM at Halton was a happy place, me as one of 5 with all them women. Those who have been there know what NOM was.

[Double Zero]

Infrastructure may be easy to build, but it b***dy expensive, which gives another excuse not to do it - we get the press every day saying ' nursing staff laid off'... ( notice I did say Off !) :E

If there are staff available, is this place in a viable location to be of use ?

I know we could desperately do with something similar in the West Sussex area, but they're closing the inadequate hospitals we had, let alone building or fitting out new ones.

Horsham & Crawley, which are both large towns, have no A&E cover anywhere near locally, & Chichester, which is not that big but relatively handy at an hours' drive - for those well enough to do it - from Horsham, 1.5 hours from Crawley is under threat...

It would be easier & more honest if they just distributed suicide kits so as not to be a bother...

[bjcc]

I was born in a Military Hospital, at one end of a sunny Island in the Med. My father was in the RAF, and wherever we were, when any of the family needed treatment we got it. Be that Cyprus, Germany or the UK.

That treatment was without waiting for months, just for tests, without being in a filthy ward, nor with the risk of MRSA.

I think that is the reason why Military Hopsitals were got rid of, because they put the NHS to shame!

Bring them back, whatever the cost!!!!

[air pig]

Double Zero, I agree, b****y expensive, but staffing is the main concern as we now are a net importer of nursing staff from the third world especially, and an envisaged shortage of 10-15 thousand within a few years. the collective skill sets of nurse's is being eroded and the people who are unemployed in the vast majority of cases are newly qualified. how many of today's nurses are going to sign up for a life in the military ???

The cost for building or refurbishing an existing unit would be costly in the extreme, where do you get the money from, sacking media spin doctors would help, but eventually it would come from money needed for operational commitments.

A and E units in the NHS are closing and patients are having to travel many miles for treatment that was previously delivered locally. Look at Sussex, trying getting to Brighton on a summers day through the traffic or from Kendal in the lakes to Barrow as is now planned.

PFI building is falling on its collective a**e, look at Metronet and look at what is happening with tanker replacement and how much it will cost over 30 years of the contract life.

A new Military Hospital is not going to in my opinion going to happen, due to some of the reasons I have given, I am sure that others may like to shoot down my analysis, feel free.

[Double Zero]

A-P,

I am sorry to say I have a feeling you're right; no nurse in their right mind is going to sign on for the military, which is not what I was thinking;

Is there a civil contract sorted out for this circumstance ? That way nurses might treat it as any other hospital, dare I say a prestiguous thing to put on one's CV...

BTW I am not racist in any way, have met some lovely people from the relatively far East & around, but it would be a boon if staff when in UK nursing & medicine spoke recognisable english - this applies to Doctors and the NHS in general...

[air pig]

Double Zero, as an ex PM, I would go back and work for them tomorrow if there was a hospital where I live.
I long for the lack of clip board carrying pen wrestlers and clear management and direction of a military hospital. At Halton we had 4 yes just 4 senior managers, The CO and OCs
Medical, Nursing and Admin. What more do you need, FFS.
Selly Oak is what we have and will have to live with it, unfortunately. Good job a high percentage of the care is very good.

BEagle, you devil, not all of us where girlies.

[Sgt Bilko]

Those kind MODs at the Air Cadet Central forums have allowed a link to be added in the Staff Thread. Should add a few hundred names to the list in one easy swoop.

If that one thing you can count on, the ATC and VRT supporting the regulars causes

[Robert Cooper]

Son No.1 at Halton, Son N0.2 at Changi, and in both cases the best care I've seen anywhere. Is the PMRNS still a going concern? They were the best!

Bob C

[air pig]

Bob C, yes they are and they still are the best. Rumours that all medical services may become purple, thereby ending the three services history and tradition.

[G-KEST]

Eight years ago I had a very mild cardiac infarction and wound up for a few days in the cardiac care unit at Peterborough District Hospital. One of those with an embedded military cell. Feeling more than a bit depressed at the thought of my ATPL class 1 medical dematerialising I was pleased to find an RAF doctor as one of the medical team. He raised my morale no end though his prognosis that I would never fly in command again was a bit dire.
In any case the advent of the NPPL solved my problem in 2002 enabling me to fly our Skybolt as P1. Every trip is at least 50% aeros and results in a huge grin.
My compliments and thanks to those RAF personnel who work in hospitals like these.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
:ok::ok::ok:

[Widger]

Once again, VECVECCOCK posts some total b*****s to get people to bite. :rolleyes:

I think I am going to get the internet at Histerical Flight pulled!:E

[air pig]

Agree with Widger, bet he would not say that to the Matron I worked for at Halton. She would have taken him out and ritually dis-emboweled him on the car park, if only as an example to others to be clean and tidy.:E:E:E:E:E:E

Standards at PMH were so high, they would shame any NHS hospital. The example of Flo in the Crimea was the order of the day, nothing less.:D:D:D:D:D

[H5N1]

I think the point about military nurses being alot more aware of the need for cleanliness (but only in clinical duties you understand) was proven recently by the PMRAFNS officer who was so disgusted by the state of the NHS ward he'd been sent to work on he got all his military nurses in for a 'bull night'.

Having seen both sides of the fence my only regret is that I didn't join sooner. Yes the annual OOA's are a pain in the proverbial but it certainly beats getting held hostage by a psychiatric patient with a bread knife and beaten sensless by a drug addict only for your NHS boss to not back you up on the court action. At least now I get a gun :}

[vecvechookattack]

So. 19 replies to my post.

2 of them complaining that the demise of military hospitals meant a lack of pretty nurses

1 moaning about a lack of pretty matrons

1 insulting me

2 insulting Beagle....

and 11 replies all in favour of military hospitals because their children were born in them. ....

My experience of military hospitals comes from visits to Haslar (awful place) and Stonehouse (Birth place of Oliver Twist where the staff were rude, amateurish and where they completely buggered up my knee)

[Roland Pulfrew]

So because VVHA has a bad experience ALL military hospitals are cr@p :ugh::ugh:

I do sometimes wonder whether VVHA just posts the complete opposite to any topic to get a bite? What I must admit is that he is an excellent fisherman because it works every time!!

I have had several experiences of the former military hospitals and my experiences were that the buildings were old, but spotlessly clean. The staff were generally good, helpful and doing their best with the facilities they had. Some were very well equipped (wasn't it Wroughton that had one of the few MRI scanners in the country and which was used by the Wiltshire NHS?) others were WWII "temporary" buildings (Nocton Hall). Either way you were treated with respect and "tough love" when necessary. Don't remember any cases of MRSA in a military hospital.

[vecvechookattack]

Well Done. I think you are the first poster on this thread who has made a genuien and reasoned argument for the reinstatement of military hospitals without using the argument that "we miss the nurses" or "they provide good maternity care"

[Wader2]

The other point about military hospitals is they were emergency hospitals. They were designed to cope with large numbers of similarly injured casualties.

In peacetime or times of low usage it made medical sense to use them to augment the NHS. This would enable staff to keep in current practise and relieve pressure on the NHS hospitals.

At the outset of GW1 RAF Waddington had a hangar set up as a holding area and Nocton Hall was reactivated as an emergency hospital, it was not used by the NHS at that time. It had been in C&M and regualrly activiated by a USAF Reserve Hospital.

Had things turned out badly casualities could have been treated without drama; the only disruption to the NHS would have been from NHS staff called forward as reserves. Our local GP was served papers to back fill slots at Lincoln or Nocton.

Military hospitals, hospital ships and much else of military equipment and facilities are hopefully never used and lie gathering dust. They are an insurance policy.

[Chugalug2]

So. 19 replies to my post.

You flatter yourself Vecvecwhatever, your post was in reply to Brat whose thread it is, as were all the others. Everyone who posts after you is not necessarily replying to you or even interested in what you have to say, any more than they are with what I'm saying.
For what it's worth, which isn't much, my own experience of military hospitalisation was in what constituted a "sanatorium", as against sick quarters, at RAFC Cranwell. The nursing was excellent and the place spotless, comparing with the squalid chaos of the NHS hospital at Birmingham that had been treating me, including a minor operation. Like many others, I was aware of what was going on throughout, of the inane chatter of the surgeon and the pain that he was inflicting on me, but totally unable to make my condition known. Another NHS hospital nearly did for me by sending me home with identified appendicitis that had "gone cold". Two days later they had me back for an emergency operation as it had burst. Safe in their hands? Muppets!