Pilot Redundancies at Thomas Cook

[Nightmale]

Thomas Cook Group have entered into a 90 day consultation period predicting up to 100 pilot redundancies.

[Localiser Green]

Presumably this is due to the MYT merger?
Seems a high figure though - does that include MYT pilots or just TCX?
From their fleet of 25 TCX can only have about 350 pilots (unless my maths is way out), chopping 30% is a big cut.

[tflier]

If true, then is Tfly next?

[Nightmale]

Combined from the new merged airline i.e MYT and TCX

[Blackcap]

Is LIFO (Last In, First Out) proposed should this go ahead?

And could application of this lead to demotions as well?

:(

[spannersatcx]

Is LIFO (Last In, First Out) proposed should this go ahead?
Although not illegal, it can be deemed as discriminatory so is not used these days as it leaves the company open to being taken to tribunal.

There is a certain amount of protection under TUPE. We had to do it recently and a matrix was drawn up, the ones with the lowest score were out.

[zon3]

Sorry, what's TUPE?

[llondel]

TUPE refers to the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) regulations, part of UK employment law. It's something best avoided (in the sense of not being a position to need it). It covers such things as transfer of your existing terms and conditions and length of service, etc if you get transferred from one company to another either through outsourcing or a buyout. There's associated redundancy laws and procedures for choosing who gets the chop if it isn't everyone, or a load of procedures to follow if it is everyone.

At first sight it's supposed to protect the employees but as with all laws tryingt o cover the general case, occasionally it definitely is not in the best interest of some.

[topjetboy]

Our contract specifically dictates that in the case of mutiple redundancy, the chopping will be based on LIFO.

[Down Three Greens]

100 redundancies from MYT and TCX combined.

[randomair]

however tcx will bear the brunt of the redundancies as they have recruited much more pilots recently. (about 40-50 this year)

Dont know when myt last recruited?

[Down Three Greens]

Remember that MYT has already been through the redundancy mill 3 years ago when a high number of the 'new pilots' were made redundant and all progression was stopped for three years. I hear it was not a pleasant experience.

Apparently they have few junior F/O's around 12-18 months service which were kept on after seasonal contracts. Most junior f/o's have 4+ years due to the earlier chopping.

I don't envy the next couple of months for either company,

[Stan Woolley]

Give it a year they'll be squealing for pilots. :rolleyes:

[randomair]

Yea, what they'll do is get rid of all the tcx pilots, and use summer only contract pilots from across the pond to deal with the busy periods.

[Rushed Approach]

Apparently Monarch will be recruiting similar nos to last year (50-60). Interviews start soon for next year.
Oh and LIFO falls foul of the age regs now (discriminates against younger pilots), whether it's in your contract or not (it's in mine too)!

Spanners, care to elaborate on what factors were used in your matrix?

[Litebulbs]

LIFO does not discriminate against age. You can be 40 with 20 years and 60 with 10.

[Rushed Approach]

Yes, true, but if you look at the ages of the new joiners they will on average be younger. It is called "indirect" age discrimination. Ask a lawyer. I already have, and that's the advice I got.

[EGCC4284]

Rush Approach

Lets say you are employed at a company for 5 years and have 3000 hours time on type.

Someone else joins your company and has only been there for one year, but has 5000 hours on type due to experience from his previous job. Are you saying that they should get rid of you and keep the newer guy for having more hours on type than you even though you have longer length of service.

Last in first out seems fair to me.

[Dan Winterland]

Redundancy is a minefield with different bodies applying the same laws in different ways. And the European laws are different to the UK laws. I expereinced this post 9/11 - here is a little of what I learned.

The Employment Rights Act of 1996 requires that an employer prrove that selection of redundees was done fairly, a simple policy of LIFO is not always enough. One element of this is that an employee is not made redundant - it's his or her job that is redundant. So if an employer, as part of the downsizing decides to dispose of an aircraft type, the pilots on a remaining fleet cannot be made redundant if the more senior pilots from the fleet which has been cut are retrained to take their jobs. In this case, they are 'dismissed for reasons of redundancy' but not technically made redundant themselves. These pilots may have a case for unfair dismissal. But beware, the statutory redundancy payments which tend to be the maximum awarded by an employment tribunal are not very generous. A settlement made directly with the employer is usually more benficial to the employee.

Another thing, if an employer finds another job before his or her redundancy date and resigns, they forfeit any claim for redundancy pay. They should hang on in there or write a carefuly worded letter stating that they have found another job and are having to take an earlier redundancy date. An employer making someone redundant cannot prevent an employee from leaving early to take up a new position. In any case, never use word 'resign'.

[IcePack]

Anyone know if a company makes staff redundant they can not re-recruite into that position without offering the job back to the redundant personel first? OR is there a time limit on it?

[Dan Winterland]

It's up to whatever a court might feel adequate if put to the test. Two years is normally deemed reasonable I gather.

[gtaflyer]

if you do loose your jobs guys ( and i sincerly hope you dont) dont worry there are plenty of jobs in the middle east if you are boeing and airbus qualified. just for information etihad, qater , emirates and also Oman air are all desperate for pilots. And even further out India and Far East also have opportunities. Just start to spread those wings out and dont worry.

i know its a big sacrifice to leave all that rain behind, but at least some of the pay is tax free !:cool:

[spannersatcx]

Anyone know if a company makes staff redundant they can not re-recruite into that position without offering the job back to the redundant personel first? OR is there a time limit on it?

It's the position that is made redundant. If after the redundancies are made, something happens that was not known beforehand, and the company needs to employ into these positions then the people that were made redundant have no automatic rite to those positions.

TUPE (from experience) gives greater rites and protection to those that are transferred in to the company that has taken over than those already in it.

Our matrix was made up of numerous things that we scored points on, qualifications, sickness, interview for our job scores! and probably some more that I didn't know about. It's not a nice process to be involved in that's for sure.

[RoyHudd]

LIFO based on date of joining is to be applied. With early retirement and part-time incentives on offer.

[Torque2]

Was that 'tongue in cheek Roy or wishful thinking?'. There are 83 days left to come up with those decisions and facts although I agree that is what should happen.;)

[Ambulance 'Charlie Alpha']

Roy

Did that wee tit-bit of information come to you as divine inspiration or did you just make it up?

You certainly seem to be the only one in this company with that level of info!

ACA

[RoyHudd]

LIFO is contractual with one of the companies. Incentive for early retirement will be up to 18 months dosh, plus notice.

[stansdead]

I was the last man on the TCX seniority list after Sept 11th, so I have some experience of TCX redundancy issues.

All I can say is tht NO-ONE was made redundant last time and I doubt they will be this time either.

Situations have a way of working themselves out.

Ask your CC's to explore the possibilities of the enhanced career break options that were offered last time. Basically guys disappeared to other airlines for between 2 and 5 years. Their seniority was preserved on the list and they were eventually given recall dates. I went to DHL. And then I returned for 3 more summers before finally poking off from TCX for good.

The key to survival in instances like this is to be proactive. Get applying for other jobs and take one if it's offered.

Unlike Sept11th, there are loads of jobs out there now. You can bet your bottom dollar TCX will be recruiting this winter......

Good luck.

[Smokie]

What about My Travel, will they be recruiting this winter also?
Is it still a separate venture at the moment?

[RoyHudd]

No MYT recruitment. Line training payers continue, Canadian pilots coming for summer 2008. (MYT pilots goining to Canada winter 07/08)

[monkeyboy]

Speaking of recruitment, I hear from someone in the know :8 that TCX are already looking at 08 recruitment. I don't know if this is just cadet level though.
MB

[Jonty]

If what Roy has said is true, this merger could prove more interesting than first thought.

[randomair]

I know for a fact if TCX pilots are to be made redundant...and replaced by canadians 3 months later....strike action will follow.

MYT may be used to be treated like s***e (summer only captians demoted to F/O for the winter, canadian captians taking the place of uk pilots etc) but thomas cook will not stand for it.

MYT pilots need to be re-educated of how a proper, decent company is run. And even though thomas cook isn't the perfect employer, there is a limit.

Not a good start for Frank Pullman. half the workforce is already against him.

randomair

[Down Three Greens]

MYT pilots need to be re-educated of how a proper, decent company is run.

Great start randomair. Fortunately from the TCX colleagues I've met, they aren't as patronizing as you seem to be from this post. That is a great attitude to walk into a merger. :=
We all have concerns going to this but attitudes like that don't help. Try voicing you concerns through your union and from my viewpoint, I think this situation has been highlighted, the union has 'polled' the TCX workforce and I'm positive both BALPA and the company are debating the issue.
Not a good start for Frank Pullman. half the workforce is already against him.

So no decision has been made about the policy and half the workforce is against him. :confused:

[randomair]

yea sorry i shouldnt really leave posts on here after a night out. :}ill try and explain my reasons.

I was aiming my comments more at the the management rather than the MYT pilots when I said that MYT pilots need to be re-educated....although pilots were in my sentence. MYT have been under a real threat of redundancies over the past few years, therefor terms and conditions have been allowed to errode for the greater good.....however now we are merging 2 profitable companies, so the agreements that i refered to are not acceptable...certainly when the threat of redundancies are on the table.

My comment on Frank Pullman.......the reason half the workforce is already against him, is because the first communication that tcx employees received from our new leader, an email on a friday night at 6pm was a list of the forcast redundancies. without the fleet management, rostering managers having any clue of the numbers. great first impression.

[Down Three Greens]

Now I've looked at you previous posts (especially 3rd March 2007, 00:33 ), I can see why you have concerns about the possible redunancies. There a number of concerns both both sides and there some 'healthy' debate going on both the company and union websites.

Just a quick thought that may make you feel a little more positive...when looking at the protential loss of pilots, just ask yourself if the TCX contract pilots were on the TCX seniority list when the numbers were decided upon.
We are all in agreement (including FP) that an e-mail wasn't the best method even though it got this information to the troops. I think the last airline update newsletter might clarify what happend and why (I won't post sections of it on here).

Also, from what I hear, I think most of your colleagues in TCX HQ (CH) have met him as he spent numerous days there. I think you might find a straight talking honest PPL owner. who is passionate about the airline he works at.
MYT have been under a real threat of redundancies over the past few years, therefor terms and conditions have been allowed to errode for the greater good

Our terms and conditions are some of the best in the country!! Have a look at scheduling agreement, Day off payements system. Yes we have canadians come over during the busy months and we send ours over the winter. We just have a different relationship with our colleagues across the pond. Also our temporary (Summer only) captains keep their command when they operate over there. The only reason promotion hasn't been around for 3 years is the recovery from shake-up. I think you might find a different attiude if there are UK compulsory redundancies.

yea sorry i shouldnt really leave posts on here after a night out.

We're are all guilty of that!! :ok:

[Down Three Greens]

On a more lighthearted note

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr_1B3M7rEI

:{

[Tight Slot]

Hmmm, the 330's look good on the vid. Would be a damn sight better if they had ACARS and CPDLC though..... voice over the pond? :} :}

[javelin]

'VKF has a sort of ACARS - got my clearance from Gander the last 3 trips using it :E

[bermudatriangle]

Don't read too much into this rumour of redundancies...frank pullman is an extremely competent manager and a real peoples person,the type of manager we would all do well to have heading our company operation.the deciding factor will be this summers operating performance in the inclusive holiday market,which is being well and trully squeezed by the locost flight only operators.if losses are inevitable then cutbacks will have to be made and any serious reduction in flight operations will have to lead to a head count reduction.the upside of this market shift,is that the capacity lost in the inclusive tour market will be taken up by the flight only experts,with the obvious demand in their flight ops departments.the airline industry has never been more fluid than at present and we all have to be prepared to make a move as and when the market changes.gone are the days of a job for life with steady promotion and a fat pension pot at the end.

[beardy]

Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Nor do I subscribe to any other of Nietzsche's thoughts.

[0-8]

What is going to happen with the fleets?

TC is predominately Boeing with a few 'bus and MYT is predominately 'bus with a few Boeing.

Are they going to continue to run both fleets?

[Torque2]

Yes, it is said that the longhaul side of things will be predominantly Airbus, some bases will convert to Boeing but they have not been nominated yet.

[RoyHudd]

There may be trouble ahead........:rolleyes:

[Dreamshiner]

"But while theres moonlight and music and love and romance

Lets face the dole while on the phone to Parcccccccc"

cue drum solo :)

[Rushed Approach]

bermudatriangle

Sounds like mgmt speak to me.

"the airline industry has never been more fluid than at present and we all have to be prepared to make a move as and when the market changes.gone are the days of a job for life with steady promotion and a fat pension pot at the end."

Get real. This is bullsh1t. The seniority system means this is a pipe dream - if I move companies I'll halve my salary - who is going to to do that?

[D'pirate]

Viva Macau has a requirement for 767 First Officers starting in the near future (November likely) and ongoing requirements next year for both seats. Recent pay increase by 25% for FO and 20% for Capts plus they now have a gratuity. Apply online at www.flyvivamacau.com Hope this helps!

[Arrowhead]

Any 767 FOs in the UK who risk losing their job in the UK and are minded to live in a tax haven in SE Asia should PM me. Be warned though, its not quite so good for young single guys.