Twin Squirrel from Battersea

[AussieAndy]

Can I ask for your opinion, with detail please?

I'll give you a scenario, client calls and asks to fly 3 or 4 passengers 65Nm North from a Battersea take-off. Has already been quoted in a Twin Squirrel. What do you do?

Would you quote your AS355F2 to do the task?

What if a 5th passenger was added? I now find myself in a right pickle and need some advice going forward! :ugh:

[dunnarunna]

Presumably its Public Transport as you are 'quoting'. So with that load you will be over the max Class1 Helipad weight of 2200kg for an F2. If the floats are installed, you can fly Class2 up to MAUW with the river as your reject area.

If you don't have floats then you might make Denham (after a Class1 Helipad takeoff) for a refuel but watch the weight limits especially in summer.

Four in the back of a 355 isn't very comfortable though......

[AussieAndy]

No floats...

Would you have recommended this aircraft for 4 pax?

[Bravo73]

Would you have recommended this aircraft for 4 pax?

It depends on what other aircraft that you have available and the budget available. In an ideal world, another aircraft might be preferable.


But, according to my maths, the job is doable. Just.

4 x 80kg + 80kg for pilot: 400kg

2200 - 1640 - 400 = 160kg fuel.

160/57 = 28% fuel. (ie just under an hour to dry tanks).

65nm is 0.5 hrs flight time. So that should leave you 20 minutes (+ a very light reserve) to find a refuel. This obviously doesn't give you much margin for unforeseen circumstances. :uhoh:


Not ideal. But possible. 5 pax (or v heavy pax) would necessitate a refuel at one of the 'satellite' airfields.

[AussieAndy]

So without budgeting for a refuel, and if they working on just 3 passengers, is the flight doable or did the operator, 'lead me up the garden path?'

[Bravo73]

3 pax gives you 40% fuel. This is good for an hour's flight (+ a slightly better reserve).

The operator's quote should've included an option to refuel after the drop-off. (At least ours would have!)

And bear in mind that all of these timings work for approximate weights for the pax and the weight of our Squirrels. (A heavier Squirrel would obviously not be able to carry as much fuel.) With a job this tight on fuel, I would ask for the actual weights of the pax (explaining why it's so important) and fully explain the implications of bringing either 4 or 5 pax.

Like I said before, the job is doable. Just.

[AussieAndy]

Cheers Bravo, can you PM me your details... this flight DID happen the week before last, and it was a disaster!!!

Any other thoughts/comments/opinions are appreciated....

[JimBall]

Fascinating thread. Yet again leaves me wondering where the CAA has its head. Here we have a vastly expensive twin engine helicopter at best only offering borderline safety for 4 pax.

In any normal country, a single would be safer, cheaper and have better load-carrying ability.

Battersea is of course unique with its Class requirements - but when will our regulators wake up and realise that their strange regs are putting people at risk ?

Tempted to ask why the operator offered a twin when a B3 with floats could do the job ?

[nigelh]

If you havent asked the weight of the pax you are really limited to 3 pax at standard weight and 1 hr fuel ....no way 4 pax legally.:=
The operator should have made this quite clear at the start ...he obviously did not have a float equiped machine which is the only one worth using out of B,sea. The CAA ( campaign against aviation ) have done a really fine job of making aoc,s uncompetitive.....how many pax can you take out of B,sea if you lease the helicopter ......5 ......if you charter ......3 !!!!!!
Even in a Dauphin if it is leased 9 to 10 pax ...on an aoc 6!!!:ugh:
Even allowing for the CAA it sounds like a very dodgy operator to not make this clear to you ....we all know that an extra passenger is likely to turn up and the operator is saying his helicopter is a 6 seater . Name and shame i say :ok::ok:
ps was it an F2 as old as my granny with a dodgy paint scheme ?????

[Bravo73]

Tempted to ask why the operator offered a twin when a B3 with floats could do the job ?

Maybe because they didn't have a B3 with floats to offer???

And a single with floats is obviously a viable option. But then you are restricted to leaving the zone via the lanes (which can put x minutes on the trip, x being very variable!)

[Bravo73]

Blah, blah, blah. Rant, rant, rant.

Why exactly is it the CAA's fault if they insist (in their mind, for safety) on Group A performance out of the helipad at Battersea? Seems quite sensible to me (and it should stop paying passengers getting wet in the event of engine troubles.)

Both aircraft you've quoted are Eurocopters. Surely you should be asking Eurocopter why they release helicopters with such pitiful Group A performance???

[Camp Freddie]

so the answer may well be to stop using battersea, its -

1) over priced
2) too small
3) in the wrong place for central london
4) will continue to have severe performance limitations especially with older types.

I think we will look back when its gone and wonder how it lasted so long !

regards

CF

[rotorspeed]

Bravo73

"Surely you should be asking Eurocopter why they release helicopters with such pitiful Group A performance???"

The AS355N has excellent Group A performance at 2540Kg; in fact the latest NP (though few if any about) has full 2600kg Group A.

Everyone here seems to be assuming it is an F that has quoted for the job. May be it is an N. There are quite a few 355Ns around and 6 x 90 kg persons with 1.5 hours fuel is easily do-able operating to Class 1.

[AussieAndy]

Thanks Rotorspeed, it was definitely an F2 that was quoted!

[nigelh]

Bravo 73 why is it deemed safe enough if the a/c is leased but not safe if it is chartered ?
It appears the operator offered up their F which under the caa rules is obviously not the right machine for the job . They are therefore mis selling and in the process giving the whole industry a bad name and leaving 4 or 5 people with a very bad taste in their mouths.....they are not going to know that they should have asked for a 355N or that they should have asked for floats !!!!! This is supposed to be a service industry but you would never have guessed it !!:ugh:

[Bravo73]

Bravo 73 why is it deemed safe enough if the a/c is leased but not safe if it is chartered ?

Because there are different sets of rules (as you are fully aware). All aviation authorities have fewer concerns about private aircraft than public transport aircraft WRT to safety hence fewer regulations. The more passengers, the more regulations. In essence, they're not really that fussed if you kill yourself but they get very upset if you start killing others. (And, yes, this IS a gross generalisation on my part.)


It appears the operator offered up their F which under the caa rules is obviously not the right machine for the job .

Why is it always the fault of the CAA??? :ugh: As we've already established, yes, of course, there are aircraft better suited for the job. But it was/is doable by an F2.


They are therefore mis selling

Not really. Given the facts above, the job was doable. I don't think that AussieAndy is giving us the full facts though.


and in the process giving the whole industry a bad name and leaving 4 or 5 people with a very bad taste in their mouths.....

Not quite as bad a name as people who try to pass off private flights as public transport.


they are not going to know that they should have asked for a 355N or that they should have asked for floats !!!!!

You might find that the customers don't either know or care about the difference between an F and an N. A broker should do though.


And to rotorspeed:

Everyone here seems to be assuming it is an F that has quoted for the job.

The clue was in the opening post. ;) But thanks for the performance info anyway. :hmm:

[nigelh]

BRAVO 73
A reply to some of your points.
Your point about killing passengers seems illogical , as it is quite clear that they allow private flights to take far more passengers than aoc ones :confused: If they wished to keep the "tally" down they would allow the "pros" to take more pax.?
At standard weights the flight was NOT doable in the F2. This has been confirmed to me by 2 operators. ( in any event if it was that close they should have alerted the client ...what if 2 of the pax were fatties ???):=
I agree that there is no room for passing off a pvt flight as public but am not aware of that happening. ( people who lease aircraft sign agreements etc etc and are fully aware ):ok:
Lastly i agree that the client is not interested in what type he is flying ....but he is expecting the operator to provide a suitable machine for the purpose !! Would you go and inspect your surgeons scalpels before an op just to check they are sharp and clean ????? No and neither should a client have to check that he has been sold the right aircraft. The broker probably deals with hundreds of different types of aircraft and cannot be expected to know all the quirks and performances of each make and model. Did you, for instance know that a dauphin can only take 5 pax and reasonable fuel ? ( i didnt !!)
Anyway a very good lesson on how not to do it !!:D

[Bravo73]

BRAVO 73
Your point about killing passengers seems illogical , as it is quite clear that they allow private flights to take far more passengers than aoc ones :confused:

No, nigel. You've got it wrong. Again. It's not a matter of 'allowing private flights to take more passengers than aoc ones'. It's a case that AOC flights are subject to more rigorous regulations (ie the need for Group A performance.) The performance of the aircraft that you refer to dictates that the payload has to be reduced. As we've already seen, an AS355N wouldn't have similar restrictions.

Do you know understand? :ugh:


At standard weights the flight was NOT doable in the F2. This has been confirmed to me by 2 operators.

Wrong. Again. I doubt that you have checked with 2 operators so you are probably lying again. Check my 1st post above. I've even done the maths for you. The flight was doable. But only just. (And not with great margins).


( in any event if it was that close they should have alerted the client ...what if 2 of the pax were fatties ???):=

Er, that's what I've already said. :ugh:


Lastly i agree that the client is not interested in what type he is flying ....but he is expecting the operator to provide a suitable machine for the purpose !!

No. In this case, the customer went to a broker. In their eyes, the broker was the 'operator'.


Would you go and inspect your surgeons scalpels before an op just to check they are sharp and clean ?????

Utterly irrelevant.



The broker probably deals with hundreds of different types of aircraft and cannot be expected to know all the quirks and performances of each make and model.

So? A competent broker WILL know the performance and limitations of the aircraft that they deal with. We deal with plenty of brokers and you won't be surprised to hear that there are some good ones out there and some not so good ones.


And finally:


I agree that there is no room for passing off a pvt flight as public but am not aware of that happening. ( people who lease aircraft sign agreements etc etc and are fully aware ):ok:

That's an interesting take on things. Out of interest, how long are these 'lease agreements'. A couple of hours at a time, per chance? :hmm:

[nigelh]

BRAVO
You appear to be very agressive ,saying that i am lying and just plain wrong on everything ....if this is the way you operate then it is a wonder that you have any clients at all !!!!
By the way how many pax can a CJ2 take out of La Mole airport , S France on a hot day ???? What is the internal weight you can take in a 109 Mk11 with floats and aux fuel tanks ???? I very much doubt if you have a clue :ugh: And if you gave an answer i would assume you are lying again , as usual := oh , and next time you book your flights ask your travel agent what distance runway the aircraft requires .....I,m sure they will know !!!! If you really believe that asking the operator if his helicopter can take off safely is NOT similar to asking your surgeon if his knives are sharp then that is up to you .....I think they are similar and personally not ring up BA just to check they have enough runway :ugh::ugh:
As for the lease agreements ....how long do you want one for ?? It has to be flown by a competent pilot though..

[Bravo73]

BRAVO
You appear to be very agressive ,saying that i am lying and just plain wrong on everything ....

I don't suffer fools gladly.

[AussieAndy]

And to think, I only asked for an opinion....

[EESDL]

Ain't it strange how individual passenger weights tend to decrease - the more pax that turn up?
So whilst it's 'legal' for a single to do the Battersea lift with floats but I suggest that pax should actually be 'wearing' lifejackets to be within the letter of the law - protection following failure of power unit etc etc - or are you telling me that reject into murky Thames, inflation of floats, donning of lifejackets in cramped cabin etc etc can all happen without jeopardising pax safety? Can all your pax swim?
Duty of care............I have yet to see passengers wear lifejackets leaving Battersea - pvt or aoc.
Whilst having 2 turbines might simply double chances of an engine failure - Battersea is next to Thames (wait for it), Thames is full of water (I said wait for it......) and water is where you could possibly find SEAGULLs - who have been known to affect individual engine performance - either by sitting on an F1 skid or getting into intake (less likely with N).
So no matter how reliable turbines have become - sometimes it is not their fault when they cough/splutter/die. We can look at stats and decry current regulations but suggest you make sure that you have a cracking good legal team when they come after your 'estate' post incident because city gent was injured (or worse) trying to get out of a capsized single post ditching.
As already mentioned - operator needs to tell the broker what can and cannot be done - or is competition so fierce down South that customer's safety/needs expire......

To answer your question Andy.......
Operator would plan on 110kt groundspeed.
Then have to plan on delays with Luton etc
Not only would they have to complete charter but then get to refuel site with vfr reserves.
Account for shutdown and start fuel usuage at pax destination - unless they had someone in-situ to do doors (did they?)
Maybe they had prepositioned bowser at destination?
Brokers don't always pass on restrictions that operators tell them as it might make them appear unattractive against another quote offering a 355N etc.
Can't comment as I do not know what reserves/sops are in ops manual.
Did you go for cheapest quote?
You would think that broker would do the running about for you but some have their favourites........

[helimutt]

NigelH, once again you start having a go at another ppruner, just like you did me when you knew you couldnt win the argument. It's plain to see you 'go off on one' if you disagree with someone. Bravo73 works for a very well respected operator who, if I had the funding, would certainly trust to fly my family around.
Also, don't go around saying things like Dauphins can only carry 5 pax + reasonable fuel. Thats slightly incorrect but it may be true in certain circumstances. Just ask the 9 guys in the back of a few 365's heading offshore tomorrow morning. Here's me thinking you were the experienced one. Doh!!!:ugh::ugh:
:ok:

[Xavier Dosh]

Did I miss something here?

I'll offer my response which I sincerely hope has a better spirit than NigelH....

AussieAndy - you say you were in a pickle? Were you flying? or quoting?

Anyway chap, you only asked for an opinion and some people have missed the point, but here's mine:-

If an itineray changes to the original plan that had been quoted or agreed - I would suggest that it is reasonable (although not always welcome) for the Captain / operator to inform the passengers that the changes cannot be incorporated into the proposed plan (that had been agreed)

There are AS355F1s that can take for our five pax out of Battersea perfectly leagilly

G-BPRL, G-ORMA, G-BPRI, G-LENI (although LENI does have floats)

ORMA and BPRI weigh 1474 and 1501kgs respectively

BPRI @1501
5 pax @ 85kgs each
1 Crew @ 85

Total 2011kgs

2200 - 2211 = 189kgs (or 30% fuel ex Battersea)

Denham / Stapleford / Elstree for a refuel and onto 60nm North??

Your original post does suggest that perhaps we would offer an F2 - the answer is 'yes'. Non floated F1 = 2200 kgs MTOW ex BATT or floated F2, 2540 kgs MTOW ex BATT.

All the best :ok:

XD

[AussieAndy]

Are you aware which/if any of these have IFR?

I will be calling MW on Monday to establish a relationship going forward.

Cheers...

[EESDL]

Ahhhhh! The classic IFR departure from battersea......
only joshing - would be amazed if these light machines were ifr - but I am easily surprised.

[nigelh]

Point taken Helimutt...but to be fair the reason i said that about the Dauphin is to help make my point .....there is a dauphin that i know of which has not got floats and can only do what i quoted . This just backs up my case that the operator has a duty to tell it how it is . I amsure bravo is a great chap working for a great company but he crossed the line by saying i was lying . This is a valid discussion and his twopence was not constructive. This sort of thing is going to keep happening and each time it does there are a bunch of passengers telling their horror story . How does that help any of us ????? Anyway let them carry on ...i,m not an operator :ok:

[scooter boy]

Camp Freddie posted:
"so the answer may well be to stop using battersea, its -

1) over priced
2) too small
3) in the wrong place for central london
4) will continue to have severe performance limitations especially with older types.

I think we will look back when its gone and wonder how it lasted so long !"

Amen to that CF, I'll not be back to Battersea for the above reasons - went to Denham instead last Monday - 5 mins taxi to Denham station, 25 mins in to Marylebone.
Nice people and inexpensive fuel too. By far the most pleasant and easiest trip I have had into central London from Cornwall.

SB